Men Strike in Kendo

[Ren Blade]

From hearing from friends who used to do Kendo, I am confused as to why when doing Men strike, why on contact push foward? In Iaido, the sword makes contact and continues downward while dragging back in a slicing motion. If striking the head with a real sword like in Kendo, I was told the blade would get stuck in the opponent's skull if pushing the sharp edge foward into the head. I'm curious as to why the application of the sword in Kendo is changed. I mean how come Kendo isn't cutting in similar application as Iaido or Kenjutsu when striking the head? I do think Kendo's great in that way to learn how to engage a resisting opponent in real time. But why not keep the application and the essense of a real sword in a battle when doing Kendo? I hope not to offend any Kendokas. Please don't beat me up. :confused2

[Jerry Wellbrock]

IMHO, Forward movement during and following the men strike show evidence of a committed attack. Cutting with a katana and striking with a shinai are not the same. The forward movement shows Body-Mind-Sword-Spirit are one and committed to the attack. :old_man:

[Hai_hai]

From hearing from friends who used to do Kendo, I am confused as to why when doing Men strike, why on contact push foward? In Iaido, the sword makes contact and continues downward while dragging back in a slicing motion. If striking the head with a real sword like in Kendo, I was told the blade would get stuck in the opponent's skull if pushing the sharp edge foward into the head. I'm curious as to why the application of the sword in Kendo is changed. I mean how come Kendo isn't cutting in similar application as Iaido or Kenjutsu when striking the head? I do think Kendo's great in that way to learn how to engage a resisting opponent in real time. But why not keep the application and the essense of a real sword in a battle when doing Kendo? I hope not to offend any Kendokas. Please don't beat me up. :confused2

Good question. The side view of a men uchi shows the shinai drawing an arc. The body moves forward so that the upper part of the shinai will contact the men, or kote or do. It is after that (contact) that one moves forward or one can end up in tai-atari 2600.
Have you seen a kendo shiai? You see a lot of moves that don't seem best suited for "killing with one strike". Kendo is about the way of the sword, not the way of "really killing with a sword". I suggest you watch the following videos if possible to understand kendo on a deeper level... "Real Bout High School: Samurai Girl", "Akira", "You're Under Arrest", "Samurai X", "Hand Maid May", "Initial D" all three stages, and "Patlabor" all movies, TV shows, OVA versions, etc.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

its because kendo is about single strikes, you cant really score a point based on a slash that runs all the way down a men

[Bleda]

Also if you strike with the downward slash it hurts like hell. The world championships would be filled with knockouts and concussions. In iai you also are aiming for their face not the top of the head like in kendo so moving forward in iai would lodge the sword while moving forward with the blade on the top of the head would cut.

[mystic_kendoka]

as mentioned above it would hurt like hell, it really would, even now with "light" hits i have to wince every now and then, you dont always have to go forward though, you can go backwards, as long as you make distance between you and ur enemy, after all, if he wasnt dead or dodged it, he'd strike back, this is called zanshin (wont go about its full meaning here) more or less means to be ready wateva happens next, so u just need to make distance between the two of you,

i think also the momentum has something to do with it, when u go for men in shiai, you do it in full spirit, full kiai, full speed, so if u tried to hit and cut down, you would trip...

[Ren Blade]

Ok, that makes sense now.

Hai Hai, yeah I've seen Kendo matches on video and animes like Samurai X and classic Japanese swordplay films.

I just had this recent conversation a couple nights ago with my friend who formerly did Kendo and he didn't have an answer for me on it and just concluded that he did it that way for the sake of it just being part of the Kendo training. I'll tell him tonight if I see him what was mentioned here. Thanks again. :)

[Bleda]

Please don't beat me up.

Oh and btw *beats Ren up with a moldy trout*

[ctan]

Hi! I'm not really sure what you mean by "push forward on strike". The mechanics of the men strike (as far as I understand it) is up-and-out (as opposed to up-and-down; this is evident from the kendo kata from which we draw our basic techniques). If your question is: why don't we stop our bodies after the strike instead of moving through/forward as we do (inevitably that leads the men to "push forward" after the strike, I think); that really has to do with demonstrating a committed attack and establishing zanshin (breaking maai), I think. Also, since we do not actually ever slice through the person's head and since hard hits are painful, the focus becomes more on demonstrating good tenouchi which translates not to a "through" cut, but to control; i.e., stopping the strike at around two to three inches below the target area with good tenouchi.

But, at least from what I understand, in principle, the men strike is *not* a "forward pushing slice" across the top of the head. The principle is always up-and-out; even when doing "small"/"quick" men, that should be the feeling anyway.


My 0.02 cents.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

thats because the shinai snaps and bounces, doesnt slash through (causing pain), its not a chop

[moonblade]

My sensei taught me that the reason you do the little push forward is to mimic the proper cut for a katana. Unlike most European swords, which are like modern cleavers in how they cut (straight force, optimal cutting in the middle of the blade) a katana is more like a knife, which has to push or pull to "shear" the flesh it's cutting into. So with do strikes and kote strikes, you pull the cut and with men you push to maximize to cut. Or at least imitate maximizing the cut.

[Ren Blade]

In Iaido I'm taught that a Katana has to pull to shear a cut into flesh. When watching tameshigiri demos like James Williams from bugei and other videos of other masters doing tameshigiri, I don't see any of them pushing the blade foward to shear a cut. Eventually I want to take a tameshigiri seminar to get a better feel for actual cutting.

[Tachi]

In Iaido I'm taught that a Katana has to pull to shear a cut into flesh.

My neighbor thinks a lawn mower only cuts when you push it forward!
I'm pretty sure that a Katana(and a lawn mower) will cut just fine by pulling or pushing. :) I don't think that pushing with a Katana (or pulling with a mower), is very practical though!

[Ren Blade]

Oh and btw *beats Ren up with a moldy trout**Ow*Ow*Ow*Ow* :dead:

[Ren Blade]

My neighbor thinks a lawn mower only cuts when you push it forward!
I'm pretty sure that a Katana(and a lawn mower) will cut just fine by pulling or pushing. :) I don't think that pushing with a Katana (or pulling with a mower), is very practical though!Heh heh heh. Lawn mower. Pretty clever. :)

[Hai_hai]

My neighbor thinks a lawn mower only cuts when you push it forward!
I'm pretty sure that a Katana(and a lawn mower) will cut just fine by pulling or pushing. :) I don't think that pushing with a Katana (or pulling with a mower), is very practical though!

Pushing or pulling or chopping, a sharp knife or sword can cut.

[Ren Blade]

True you can cut when pushing foward. But when you slice a piece of cheese from a bar of cheese, are you pushing your knife foward or pulling back? Granted you can push foward and it would still slice the cheese. But it's more efficient cutting to pull on the cut. I think this would apply to cutting a human as well with a sword. Even though a head's a harder object, have the edge struck it, pulling back would make it a more efficient cut. But it makes sense when someone mentioned earlier that the intention isn't pushing your sword foward in Kendo, but to strike and from moving foward with your feet, results in the blade being push foward. Now that is interesting. I'll have to stop by this Kendo club sometime and ask them and maybe get to discuss the differences in Iaido and Kendo cuts. Or I can ask my sensei tomorrow night. I'll ask if he's done Kendo before.

[mystic_kendoka]

kendo is not about realism, that is for kata, it doesnt matter if its easier to cut or not, and it is easier to do hiki waza and back away, rather than going forward, doesnt really matter as long as you know how to do both properly, and just make distance between u and ur opponent...

[Bleda]

If you were to use the idea that cutting with a sword is more efficient to move back then your cuts would be very small and short since the contact is usually made with the final 4 inches of a real sword. A traditional sword is actually made to slice with the tip and then continue forward to cause a larger gash and cut more.

Next time you cut cheese put the last 1/4 inch of the knife on the cheese and pull back, is it still more efficient than if you would have pushed forward?

[mystic_kendoka]

my mom wont let me waste the cheese...

but think about it, if u get a small cut even 1 cm long, that goes into ur head, ur dead anyway, doesnt need to be bigger, wld be a waste of time...

[Hyaku]

In comprison with sword techniques the body settles slightly before cutting to effect hip twist.

But mainly there are three methods of cutting. To cut and move forward, cut on the spot, cut and move back. Many years ago cuts were made with an avoiding movement. It would be wrong to say that there is no movement when using a sword.

As mentioned the mechanics of Kendo are different based on the weapon and striking.

[Bleda]

my mom wont let me waste the cheese...

but think about it, if u get a small cut even 1 cm long, that goes into ur head, ur dead anyway, doesnt need to be bigger, wld be a waste of time...
You are under estimating the resilience of the human body. It is said that 4 inches of blade going in is required to kill someone. A shallow cut to the head while bounce off the skull, a shallow cut anywhere else to the body has only a tiny chance of being lethal depending on how lucky you were to cut a main artery and even then it takes a bit for you to bleed out. An example is all those people that get nails stuck in there head, shot in the head, stabbed in the head. Some people have had 5-6 inch nails driven straight into their heads and survived, you can't count on a shallow cut to do the job you always need to continue through and seriously sever flesh. This is more apparent when you do iai since you never stop with just 1 minor cut you always follow through with a large lethal blow.

[Ren Blade]

If you were to use the idea that cutting with a sword is more efficient to move back then your cuts would be very small and short since the contact is usually made with the final 4 inches of a real sword. A traditional sword is actually made to slice with the tip and then continue forward to cause a larger gash and cut more.

Next time you cut cheese put the last 1/4 inch of the knife on the cheese and pull back, is it still more efficient than if you would have pushed forward?Actually my sensei was saying it's like the last 3rd of the blade makes contact and then pulling the sword. I think it was the last 3rd. I don't remember exactly which part of the blade but it was a section towards the tip, but it was definitely not the last 4 inches. But I suppose that if you're pulling back and the swing continues downward, the last 4 inches are finishing the cut.

When I watch tameshigiri videos like this one, it doesn't appear to use the last 4 inches of the blade.
http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/video/dragonfly_med.mov

I'll have Iaido tonight, so I'll ask my sensei (I hope I can remember tonight) bout the cutting portion of the blade.

[Ren Blade]

kendo is not about realism, that is for kata, it doesnt matter if its easier to cut or not, and it is easier to do hiki waza and back away, rather than going forward, doesnt really matter as long as you know how to do both properly, and just make distance between u and ur opponent...I see. That makes sense. Though I wouldn't say that Kendo isn't real completely. It seems the cut is only half done when men striking and then holding out the shinai to show you've committed and then continuing moving foward with your feet. I guess the realism in Kendo is the timing when engaging a resisting partner trying to cut you too and then initiate the cut. And perhaps the unrealism part is not following through downward with the cut.

[Ren Blade]

In comprison with sword techniques the body settles slightly before cutting to effect hip twist.

But mainly there are three methods of cutting. To cut and move forward, cut on the spot, cut and move back. Many years ago cuts were made with an avoiding movement. It would be wrong to say that there is no movement when using a sword.

As mentioned the mechanics of Kendo are different based on the weapon and striking.I see. That makes sense too. Thanks Hyaku.

[Hyaku]

The technicalities of Battodo and precise cutting is as complex if not more than Kendo. In competition winners are sometimes decided by a difference of a millimeter in angle and correct technique.

Its this technicality that has perhaps made so many facets of swordsmanship as there is today.

A Pathologist who specializes historical remains had a look at some remains from Sekigahara. There was in fact very few skull injuries that had resulted in breaks but some abrasive marks. We have to consider the fact that if Kenjutsu is used, it is designed to attack areas between the armour, not attacks to fully protected areas.

Where do we draw the line as realism. It would not be too good if half the dojo was admitted to hospital after one practice.

Kendo is a safe means of fencing.

Go to kenjutsu. We dont wear armour. This adds a reasonable amount realism. You don't block. You get out of the way! Then again things have to be more predetermined.

[Ren Blade]

Thanks Hyaku. I guess you have to take somethings out when you want to spar as real as possible but as safe as possible with an art. In my Kung Fu sparring we hit full contact with the hands holding nothing back. But when kicking at the legs, you have to hold back cause you can't be kicking as hard as you can at each other's legs without breaking their knee.

Well, in regards to the cutting section of the blade, I asked sensei last night about it. He said it's the last 3rd of the blade to the tip that makes contact and then doing a pulling cut while pulling the left hand down. The shape of the swing is oval where the left hand is pulling down with a straight arm (without a locked elbow), pushing the right hand foward making the sword reach out as far as possible, and contact with the last 3rd of the blade towards the tip makes hits and makes contact, then pulling the blade back upon contact.

[Ren Blade]

I hate this having only 5 minutes to edit your post. I wanted to add a couple more sentences regarding the sparring. Anyways, yeah and when we get a lock on each other we can't follow through and break the joint. But we can throw each other and slam each other on the ground. So yeah, some realism has to be held back to make it as real but as safe as possible. And I understand now that Kendo is doing this to be safe. Before I wasn't interested in Kendo cause of that. But now I think I may try Kendo in a few years after building a better foundation in Iai.

[Revenir]

Hope I get this right, but just using some things from common sense (which are highly likely to be wrong since I haven't practised kenjutsu before). This is just in response to the person who said pushing or pulling should cut just as well.

When you pull a sword/knife/cutting instrument, it is easier to pull it downwards than when pushing it, especially when the point of contact with the thing you are cutting is above the fulcrum.

When you push forward on a cut (anywhere on your opponent) your forward motion would counteract your downward swing slightly making it harder to cut through. And if you were doing a men strike, which as we have established is not done in kenjutsu, the curvature of the blade and the skull tends to make your blade more stuck in the skull if it had been lodged than pulling it backwards (which would make for a cleaner release and also give you a second strike).

At least that's what I think =)

[Bleda]

28" blade, last 1/3 is 7 inches, middle point of that 7 inches is 3.5 hence contact is aimed for the last 4 inches of the blade so that your cut is down with the last 1/3 of the blade. Also you shouldn't be pulling with the left hand so much as just moving your hands down in the circle/ellipse else you're jsut fishing and making ugly looking cuts.

[Bleda]

Bah stupid edit function !@#!@#!@#!@#

[Ren Blade]

28" blade, last 1/3 is 7 inches, middle point of that 7 inches is 3.5 hence contact is aimed for the last 4 inches of the blade so that your cut is down with the last 1/3 of the blade. Also you shouldn't be pulling with the left hand so much as just moving your hands down in the circle/ellipse else you're jsut fishing and making ugly looking cuts.These are videos of how we cut at www.bostoniaido.com (http://www.bostoniaido.com/)
http://www.iaido-basel.ch/en/foto+film/kata.html

There is a slight pull. When I said pull, it's not a big movement in pulling inward. The pulling is subtle and can't be really seen, but it's there. The left hand pulls the sword down, then the right hand pushes the sword out, the left continues pulling down then slightly inward. Well, maybe you study a different Iaido style maybe for the reason you feel cutting is different. I'm studying Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. What style are you training?

[OSatsu Jin]

I asked a similar question on e-budo.com in the sword arts forum. About what was the difference between striking in kendo compared to striking in kenjutsu or iaido. Since I also do a bit of Jyodo and we use bokken alot, I didn't see any big difference at the execution of the strike....and people who replied to me on e-budo said the same thing...it was exactly the same.

Just my .02

John

[Bleda]

MJER Iaijutsu is what we do. Although i can see the pull at the end of the cut i still think its a slight push out as you straighten your wrists from jodan to extend the sword that little bit, then you pull back as the sword moves closer to the ground.

the reason i cursed the edit function is that when i first tried to imagine what you were describing it looked freaky but when i read it a few mores times i realized what you ment and that it was the normal way. Unfortunately i was a victim of the 5 minute rule.

The big difference between a kendo and a iaido strike is the finishing position of the sword and also the straightening of the wrists. Iai will have the sword ending by the persons knees for a men strike, kendo has the sword ending just below the top of the head aimed at about the face as to not hit their partner so hard.

[Ren Blade]

I hate the time limit on the edit option as well.

Thanks Bleda. That's much clearer now what you meant. Thanks for helping me understand.

[Hai_hai]

... But when you slice a piece of cheese from a bar of cheese, are you pushing your knife foward or pulling back? Granted you can push foward and it would still slice the cheese. But it's more efficient cutting to pull on the cut...

I usually press down on a bar of cheese, no pushing or pulling.
If I'm cutting raw meat, I will pull the knife towards myself.
If I'm cutting cooked meat or bread with a serrated knife, I will push and pull.
If I'm peeling a potato or whittling wood, I will push the knife away from myself.

[OSatsu Jin]

It's all about speed and getting the point. If you did it the way you are refering to, like in Iaido and Kenjutsu, or Jyodo or any other koryu..granted those ways in a real sword to sword confrontation is probably the better...because you finish the guy off with your one strike. Cleaving him from his skull to his groin if it's a good powerful strike. Which is also why kendo stances and movement is very linear....for quick hits. Kenjutsu stances are wider and allow more movement forward, backward and laterally.

If you strike men like in kendo...you may kill the guy...but chances are you are just going to wound him...and he may still be able to fight. Me I would fall to the ground gripping my head and screaming like a beooooootch. Then you could finish me off while I am on the ground crying for mommy

John