Zatoichi's kenjutsu style

[Cypher]

I recently saw the Zatoichi remake with 'Beat' Takeshi, and was wondering whether or not any kenjutsu styles resembled his (reversed grip, battoujutsu style attacks)
Obviously, I know this is a work of fiction, I am just interested in the possibility of different sword styles.

[Cypher]

oh well...the creator of Zatoichi must have been quite imaginative when thinking of his character's kenjutsu, I suppose....^_^

[Ren Blade]

I've heard Zatoichi's ryu is completely fictional.

[LNGUYEN]

No, it is not fictional. There is a grand grand grand master named Rick Tew who teaches it with the bonus of ninja ryu, and everything including flying like a spiderman.

[SenseiRobn]

It is true that the Zatoichi style that was used by Shintaro Katsu is in fact a fictional style. However, I do teach a very real, and very similar system, that is in-fact called "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman". The style is based off the Shintaro style used in the films, with several, more fluid, alterations that make this a very worthwhile and tough to beat style.

The idea was to take what made the Zatoichi style so impressive and build on it to make it a true, invincible system. By incorporating more circular, non-linear, fluid movements, the ZATOICHI-RYU system brings about an advantage over traditional Kenjutsu. It is not only lightning fast, but very tough to read. My Zatoichi-Ryu style is even going to be featured in an upcoming Action Feature entitled; "DAREMO: Return to Steel" which is currently in pre-production.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG - Traditional Kenjutsu is my foundation and my love - I just wanted something different and have been a Zatoichi fan since I was a kid.

For more info, visit: www.ZATOICHI-RYU.com (http://www.ZATOICHI-RYU.com)

Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks, Founder
Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman

[kendokamax]

thats a joke right?

by the way calling yourself <sensei> makes not much sense...

its like if you were calling yourself senpai ...do you suffer from Schizophrenia ?

[goh]

can someone please tell me its a joke?

[goh]

what the.. (http://www.cafepress.com/zatoichi_ryu.11137799)

[Richmond-san]

There is no way this man can be serious about what he is doing.

Richmond-san

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

"Robin is a 29 year Martial Artist and holds various black belts in the styles of: 3rd Dan Shudo-Ryu Okinawa-Te (Founder), 3rd Dan Kan Kai Ryu (Renshi Claude Bergeron), 4th Dan (Renshi) Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jutsu & Kenjutsu. He currently teaches "ATF: Addaptive Tactical Fighting" and "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman"

[nalogg]

My heart sunk for a second when i read the guy's name "sensei robn"
because we have a guy named "robin" who is a sensei at etobicoke.....
but then i noticed the american flag, and finally the "robn meeks"

[Matt Molloy]

Good grief! :shocked:

Please tell me it's not real.

Matt.

[Richmond-san]

']"Robin is a 29 year Martial Artist and holds various black belts in the styles of: 3rd Dan Shudo-Ryu Okinawa-Te (Founder), 3rd Dan Kan Kai Ryu (Renshi Claude Bergeron), 4th Dan (Renshi) Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jutsu & Kenjutsu. He currently teaches "ATF: Addaptive Tactical Fighting" and "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman"
Anyboby could read this at his online store, it isn't proof. There is no evidence to support his claims. Call me skeptical but this Robin fellow sounds a little sketchy, foul smelling if you will. Then again I could be completely mistaken. If I am apologies go out to where they are due.

Richmond-san

[Alex_McGrady]

']"Robin is a 29 year Martial Artist and holds various black belts in the styles of: 3rd Dan Shudo-Ryu Okinawa-Te (Founder), 3rd Dan Kan Kai Ryu (Renshi Claude Bergeron), 4th Dan (Renshi) Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jutsu & Kenjutsu. He currently teaches "ATF: Addaptive Tactical Fighting" and "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman"He is a 3rd dan in Shudo-ryu...a style that he founded??? How is he able to test? Who grades him? Daito ryu is Akido that also uses sword work....where did the kenjutsu comment come from? Loads of people have more ranks than this guy.... and did you say 29 years of experience? How old is he? 40? Even if he started when he was 2 years old.... you cannot actually consider that training to be countable.... kids play "kids karate" until they are about 18 or so. Anyone who has ever taught classes knows this difference.

Kan kai ryu= karate (I guess), Okinawa-te= karate. Daito-ryu is aikido with swords. So, with ranks in karate and aikido how can he create a style based on iaido and kendo? And why would he?

Alex

[alan dean]

I am just interested in the possibility of different sword styles.

I have a very old Kendo/kenjutsu teacher , from Milaysia, (sp?) and sometimes he smiles at me when I think I got him once, and he switches to the Zatoichi style grip on the shinai.

When he does it I know he is teaching me something, but I always go into panic mode....

suddenly what I was useing a moment before and seemed to be working, is of little value now...LOL

I think that its a fun thing to do once in a while,

I have yet to really try it myself...But down the road I might..

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

He is a 3rd dan in Shudo-ryu...a style that he founded??? How is he able to test? Who grades him? Daito ryu is Akido that also uses sword work....where did the kenjutsu comment come from? Loads of people have more ranks than this guy.... and did you say 29 years of experience? How old is he? 40? Even if he started when he was 2 years old.... you cannot actually consider that training to be countable.... kids play "kids karate" until they are about 18 or so. Anyone who has ever taught classes knows this difference.

Kan kai ryu= karate (I guess), Okinawa-te= karate. Daito-ryu is aikido with swords. So, with ranks in karate and aikido how can he create a style based on iaido and kendo? And why would he?

Alex


LOL i quoted that not as justification, but as a crticism, mainly because i couldnt find his own "created" style anywere and basicly he has like a black belt in Karate and is trying to make it sound v flamboyant

[crabbi]

AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggg ggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well... Ive ordered my 'Wife Beater' and 'Thong'... everyone should have one...!

[Fnord]

crabbi

[Richmond-san]

Lol, thats good stuff.

Richmond-san

[SenseiRobn]

Greetings to all...

Fist off, let me start by saying that I am loving all of the comments. Comments like these test us all. I truly appreciate your passion and your skepticism as It means that I have touched on something that carries importance to many. With regard to my bio. My bio, is my bio. You can read it in vaious places, not only my CafePress website(s), but at www.IMDB.com (http://www.IMDB.com) as well. And just so you know, I too am very skepticle of those that make claims such as mine, however; my is completely backable. I currently teach the Zatoichi-Ryu Style in both Canoga Park and Tarzana, California - two seperate schools - #1 Grandmaster Ho Sik Pak's Hwa Wrang Tang Soo Do, Canoga Park and, #2 The World Famous Tarzana Karate in Tarzana. If you wish to see the system in action, then drop me and e-mail and I will glady get you some footage. Several of my students have even won tournaments with the forms.

Now, secondly, why do I call myself SenseiRobn, that is an easy one to answer. When I left Bergeron Karate (Kan Kai Ryu) in Ottawa, Canada, I wanted an e-mail that the students would easily remember, seeing that is what they called me in the dojo, it seemed appropriate. Wouldn't you agree? So do I really suffer from Schitsophrenia? I don't know. But maybe you could let me know. As far as 29 years in Martial Arts, Yes, I am 40 yrs old. Why do I not a multiple Masters Belts, 1) because of the politics involved in the Martial Arts World today, and 2) because I don't have a need to be called Master. On the other hand, i have thought of changing my e-mail to RenshiRobn seeing as that is my latest title.

So let me just say, to all of my Martial Brothers and Sisters, if you are Zatoichi lovers like myself, and we all know that the real "Reverse Grip Iaido" is either fiction or reserved for Ninjutsu, then why is it such a "joke" that someone like myself, who loves Kenjutsu (by the way, Aikijutsu uses the Naginata as well) would do something to make the Zato-Style not only real, but teachable as well.

I await your responses, for if you are truly this passionate about it, you would want to know the system as much as I want to share it.

Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks
SenseiRobn@socal.rr.com

[Neil Gendzwill]

why is it such a "joke" that someone like myself, who loves Kenjutsu (by the way, Aikijutsu uses the Naginata as well) would do something to make the Zato-Style not only real, but teachable as well.
Lets just say that if you can't figure it out, we won't be able to teach you. Enjoy your rich fantasy life.

[Neil Gendzwill]

PS, where's the old KKKK thread on e-budo when you need it? Check out the mousepad (http://www.cafepress.com/zatoichi_ryu.8442887). Hee!

[ChaShu]

While the Zatoichi style is probably fictional, I have seen here http://www.arscives.com/chokuto/chokutowaza/default.htma demonstration of chokuto waza that uses a "reverse grip" on the sword. Also, in arnis, you learn techniques where the "blade" is along your forearm and you use a "reverse grip" as well. So, although the Zatoichi style may be fictional, the "reverse grip" isn't.

[ISSAC RU]

Greetings to all...

Fist off, let me start by saying that I am loving all of the comments. Comments like these test us all. I truly appreciate your passion and your skepticism as It means that I have touched on something that carries importance to many. With regard to my bio. My bio, is my bio. You can read it in vaious places, not only my CafePress website(s), but at www.IMDB.com (http://www.imdb.com/) as well. And just so you know, I too am very skepticle of those that make claims such as mine, however; my is completely backable. I currently teach the Zatoichi-Ryu Style in both Canoga Park and Tarzana, California - two seperate schools - #1 Grandmaster Ho Sik Pak's Hwa Wrang Tang Soo Do, Canoga Park and, #2 The World Famous Tarzana Karate in Tarzana. If you wish to see the system in action, then drop me and e-mail and I will glady get you some footage. Several of my students have even won tournaments with the forms.

Now, secondly, why do I call myself SenseiRobn, that is an easy one to answer. When I left Bergeron Karate (Kan Kai Ryu) in Ottawa, Canada, I wanted an e-mail that the students would easily remember, seeing that is what they called me in the dojo, it seemed appropriate. Wouldn't you agree? So do I really suffer from Schitsophrenia? I don't know. But maybe you could let me know. As far as 29 years in Martial Arts, Yes, I am 40 yrs old. Why do I not a multiple Masters Belts, 1) because of the politics involved in the Martial Arts World today, and 2) because I don't have a need to be called Master. On the other hand, i have thought of changing my e-mail to RenshiRobn seeing as that is my latest title.

So let me just say, to all of my Martial Brothers and Sisters, if you are Zatoichi lovers like myself, and we all know that the real "Reverse Grip Iaido" is either fiction or reserved for Ninjutsu, then why is it such a "joke" that someone like myself, who loves Kenjutsu (by the way, Aikijutsu uses the Naginata as well) would do something to make the Zato-Style not only real, but teachable as well.

I await your responses, for if you are truly this passionate about it, you would want to know the system as much as I want to share it.

Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks
SenseiRobn@socal.rr.com


I don't care what ryu you invented or what kind of martial arts you
people perfer to have , but your website seem to be a little more commercial
than martial.

[KhawMengLee]

I have a very old Kendo/kenjutsu teacher , from Milaysia, (sp?) and sometimes he smiles at me when I think I got him once, and he switches to the Zatoichi style grip on the shinai.

When he does it I know he is teaching me something, but I always go into panic mode....
..


Your Sensei is from Malaysia? Oooo...what's his name?

[SenseiRobn]

Wow. That is all that I can really say. You guys all call yourselves Martial Artists, and yet you have nothing but criticisms and potshots to write. I am amazed. DO NOT get me wrong, I am not writing in defense of my previous statements, as that would sink me to the lesser levels that I am approached with, but I am interested in "WHY" you are all so skepticle about what I have taken unto myself to create/adapt... uh, make available. Why? Since the Zatoichi films are now available on DVD, more and more fans have emerged. Old and new. Hanwei (Paul Chen) has even recreated a fantastic version of the Zatoichi Shikomi-zue. The one thing that WAS missing, was the teaching of the sword style. I have been practicing the techniques used in the films FOR YEARS now and have honed it to a more practicle style. Why is that such a joke or even sketchy and Richmond-san so elequently put it? You are all TRUE Martial Artists, right? (I believe that you are.) Maybe I should ask this... "Is it the fact that I have called it Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman, that disturbs you so much?" Ask me about the Mon-tsuki? Ask me what I have done to make the style an applicable style. Ask me why I chose "Zatoichi-Ryu" as the name. Ask me before you judge me. When I have explained, then judge. That is how a true Martial Artist would approach something like this.

Most of you, I am sure, hold Yudansha or higher, and I do understand some of your skepticism's, however, your calling me a joke and sketchy, well that is just straight out BS and ignorance.

Thanks for the comments, oh and just so you all know, the CafePress Webstore was designed for students and Zatoichi followers alike. Something to put the crest on and advertise the system. It has recently changed for the better.

Thanks again,

[LNGUYEN]

Let me see,

You watch many Zaitochi movies, copied its pure fantasy moves and found the Zaitochi-Ryu? No, you are not the founder, you are a copycat.

Many techniques were honed through time with practical uses in the history to become like now in modern time. Today we don't use sword techniques to kill in combat anymore. Then how do you know your Zaitochi techniques is going to work?

I am going to anounce the opening of The Last Samurai-Ryu with I am the founder, grand Master. After watching the movie for 1500 times, I can use the techniques with a good moves. First thing is how many are going to order my mouse pad? Does it smell to you? And to further the practicality, I am going to combine the moves from "Blade 1, 2, 3" into the ryu.

I think the best way to learn is like in the Matrix. Watching movies, video game, brainwash and said "I know Kungfu"

[JByrd]

I have been practicing the techniques used in the films FOR YEARS now and have honed it to a more practicle style. Why is that such a joke or even sketchy and Richmond-san so elequently put it?

Two words: Aquatic Windu. :)

If creating a martial arts style based on a movie is considered legitimate, then maybe I'll create Star Trek Ryu where we learn how to fight Gorns, and I award degrees based on the ability to apply phasers and photon torpedoes. Does that seem reasonable to you? If you say yes, your credibility as a serious martial artist is forfeit. If you say no, then the burden is upon you to explain exactly why my obviously silly idea is less legitimate than yours.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you say yes, your credibility as a serious martial artist is forfeit.
Did you actually look at the photo on the mousepad? I'd say this point is a given already.

[SenseiRobn]

Two words: Aquatic Windu. :)

If creating a martial arts style based on a movie is considered legitimate, then maybe I'll create Star Trek Ryu where we learn how to fight Gorns, and I award degrees based on the ability to apply phasers and photon torpedoes. Does that seem reasonable to you? If you say yes, your credibility as a serious martial artist is forfeit. If you say no, then the burden is upon you to explain exactly why my obviously silly idea is less legitimate than yours.

No. Becuase Star Trek is purely fantasy and phasers and photon torpedoes DO NOT EXIST (Neither do the Gorns for that matter). Besides that, I said that I have been a Zatoichi fan for years and that I have practiced the movements. Let me ask this, what Kenjutsu-ist has not appreciated the Zato style and NOT try it - even if just in play? My guess is almost all. Kenjutsu covers most of the Zato style anyway - therefore IT DOES EXIST to a degree.

I guess I should cover it this way, as it appears there is no hope here... I admired the Zato Style for years. I have been studying Daito Ryu Kenjutsu for about 15 years now, and have come across NO ONE THAT TEACHES A PURELY REVERSE GRIP CHOKUTO/SHIKOMI-ZUE SYSTEM. So, I took it upon myself to borrow the Zato Style, make some EFFECTIVE changes, put together some forms and call it ZATOICHI-RYU. The name itself would gain the recognition. Apparantly I was wrong with the choice of calling it ZATOICHI-RYU. However, if I would have called it something like Chokuto-Ryu or Shikomi-Zue Do... then maybe WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DEBATE.

The Defense Rests.

[SenseiRobn]

I don't care what ryu you invented or what kind of martial arts you
people perfer to have , but your website seem to be a little more commercial
than martial.

You are right to say that they are commercial. However; if you payed attention you will see that there is nothing on the site as far a learning material goes, just clothing, mugs, etc. It was put together for the students to get t-shirts and other things. A request by them if you will.

Thanks for the comment, Issac.

Robn

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have been studying Daito Ryu Kenjutsu for about 15 years now
Daito-ryu is aikijujutsu AFAIK. I've never heard of kenjutsu in the curriculum.
However, if I would have called it something like Chokuto-Ryu or Shikomi-Zue Do... then maybe WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DEBATE.
The name just makes it dumber. What we take issue with is you making stuff up, whatever you call it.

[Ninjujinkaku]

He probly means Dai yoshin daito ryu kenjutsu,aikijujutsu/ aka rod sachronoskis system which is BS of course since e-budo.com is up and running you can look it up.

[Zoli Elo]

Neil, Daito Ryu does have kenjutsu in its curriculum. The primary base for the system is Ono-ha Itto Ryu though several other sets of techniques were created independently for internal use. Not all branches give focus to sword work which may be why you have not heard it adamantly mentioned.

Nevertheless, a 4th dan in Daito Ryu kenjutsu should not be too much work to verify back at E-Budo, as it has be called into question....

Zoli Elo

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

its a film, i watched the blooody making of documentary and Takeshi Kitano was talking about how the grip is akward and uncromforable and he had to purposefuly bend his wrists to unantural positions just for "VISUAL EFFECT" and that the style LOOKS GOOD but it was hard to implement strong blows with it so he had sore wrists alot, ok, get the message mate? its a film, and judging from ur profile on this movie website ur films r utter shite

Plot Outline: A female martial arts team returns from a Parisian competition only to find the mysterious box they have been asked to bring back is sought by gangsters... at peril to their lives.



and u talk of credibility?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Neil, Daito Ryu does have kenjutsu in its curriculum. The primary base for the system is Ono-ha Itto Ryu though several other sets of techniques were created independently for internal use. Not all branches give focus to sword work which may be why you have not heard it adamantly mentioned.

Nevertheless, a 4th dan in Daito Ryu kenjutsu should not be too much work to verify back at E-Budo, as it has be called into question....
Thanks Zoli, I wasn't sure. If you go through the hombu website they mention that the founder was an accomplished swordsman but everything else implies just an aikijujutsu curriculum but is never very clear.

[Berugijin]

Plot Outline:[/b] A female martial arts team returns from a Parisian competition only to find the mysterious box they have been asked to bring back is sought by gangsters... at peril to their lives.



and u talk of credibility?

What?! Copyright infringement!! This sounds a little bit too much like my movie script about a Swedish team of 16 year old female martial artists in bikini's!!

[projectnavi]

What?! Copyright infringement!! This sounds a little bit too much like my movie script about a Swedish team of 16 year old female martial artists in bikini's!!


hope you did had copyright, cause thats one big money maker idea you got there!

:robot:

[ky0zero]

It is true that the Zatoichi style that was used by Shintaro Katsu is in fact a fictional style. However, I do teach a very real, and very similar system, that is in-fact called "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman". The style is based off the Shintaro style used in the films, with several, more fluid, alterations that make this a very worthwhile and tough to beat style.

The idea was to take what made the Zatoichi style so impressive and build on it to make it a true, invincible system. By incorporating more circular, non-linear, fluid movements, the ZATOICHI-RYU system brings about an advantage over traditional Kenjutsu. It is not only lightning fast, but very tough to read. My Zatoichi-Ryu style is even going to be featured in an upcoming Action Feature entitled; "DAREMO: Return to Steel" which is currently in pre-production.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG - Traditional Kenjutsu is my foundation and my love - I just wanted something different and have been a Zatoichi fan since I was a kid.

For more info, visit: www.ZATOICHI-RYU.com (http://www.zatoichi-ryu.com/)

Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks, Founder
Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman'


Oh my goodness....*sigh*....whats next, someone imitating Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu???

[splice]

'
Oh my goodness....*sigh*....whats next, someone imitating Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu???

You must not have been reading budo message boards and sites for long :). Many fanboys have claimed to be learning/teaching the secret arts of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu, some have "reinvented" the style, etc., etc...

Any sufficiently dedicated person will be able to dissociate themselves from reality and fool themselves enough to find someone willing to take their money in exchange for making their fantasy into reality. From prostitutes to powerful witches to sword masters teaching secret styles. All you can do is point out the disparity between their fantasy and reality, but if they're not willing to let go of the dream, well... You know the saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, ya?

[JByrd]

No. Becuase Star Trek is purely fantasy and phasers and photon torpedoes DO NOT EXIST (Neither do the Gorns for that matter).

Of course you're correct, phasers and photon torpedoes and Gorns do not exist. But then, Zatoichi and his "sword style" do not exist either.

What you apparently take to be a sword style is in reality stunt choreography designed for the cinema. Its purpose is not to defeat an enemy, its purpose is to look good from the limited and carefully chosen perspective of a camera. In other words, it is superficial and not based in reality. It only appears to work very well because it is fully scripted.

Let me ask this, what Kenjutsu-ist has not appreciated the Zato style and NOT try it - even if just in play?

If you treated it as mere play I doubt anyone would have a problem with it (though I would think it just a bit odd to see an adult playing Zatoichi or Anakin Skywalker or Zorro). When you pretend it is an actual sword style I start to wonder if you are capable of distinguishing reality from fantasy.

So, I took it upon myself to borrow the Zato Style, make some EFFECTIVE changes, put together some forms and call it ZATOICHI-RYU.

You could take it upon yourself to put clothes on a mannequin and call it a person, but nobody who knew a human from a dummy would take you seriously.

The name itself would gain the recognition. Apparantly I was wrong with the choice of calling it ZATOICHI-RYU. However, if I would have called it something like Chokuto-Ryu or Shikomi-Zue Do... then maybe WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DEBATE.


Really, the name is not the problem.

[SenseiRobn]

I am done with explaining myself to the likes of you. My best guess is that most of you, especially the younger ones, have no real experience with Live Blades. Sure maybe Beat Takeshi had a problem with the grip, big deal, listen to what Shintaro Katsu had to say about it. I am sure that you will all be surprised. Besides that, the Reverse Grip is commonly used by those who study Ninjutsu or even Traditional Kenjutsu for that matter. And another thing, how many of you have actually tried to do what was done in the films. It's not awkward or hard to do. Open your minds and try something new. UNTIL YOU HAVE ATTEMPTED IT YOU HAVE ZERO ROOM TO TALK. As for me, well, I've tried Kendo and Kumdo (Korean Version) and I enjoy the battles. TRY IT WITH A LIVE BLADE - THEN TALK TO ME. All that most of you have done is nothing more than belittle yourselves by trying to put me and my doings on the chopping block, and I laugh at those who try to preach their philosophies when you lack all of the etiquette that goes along with whatever degree's you hold. To me, you are all masters of nothing more than your mouths, and I have no more time for your childish antics. Whatever your views are, fine. They're you views. You can keep them. I will continue to move forward with my teaching the Zatoichi Style and watch my students as they win over Traditional Kenjutsu-ists.

I will pit one of them against any of you anytime. Yes, even in an open Kendo bout.

Sensei Robn

[KendokaJim]

Why does it always come down to fighting with these guys? "Live blade" this and"real kenjutsu" that. Man, maybe I should give up kendo and take up something "serious".

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hey, better watch out - Robn is a judge at the Battle of LA. After he's finished whuppin' you with a live blade, he can maybe get out the stars and stripes hakama and dazzle us all with his musical kata.

[JByrd]

As for me, well, I've tried Kendo and Kumdo (Korean Version) and I enjoy the battles. TRY IT WITH A LIVE BLADE - THEN TALK TO ME.

Are you saying you have had a match with live blades?

[LNGUYEN]

Are you saying you have had a match with live blades?

Yep, live blades. It means the blade is alive with two feet and two hands and can fight by themselves. So the totally sweet and awsome Zaitochi ryu students don't have to do a thing. Otherwise, if they have to do something, they probably flick out and kill whole town with Zaitochi ryu circular waza

[Hisham]

Wow! it seems that Gatsu's teachings have touched older people, interesting.

[projectnavi]

Why does it always come down to fighting with these guys? "Live blade" this and"real kenjutsu" that. Man, maybe I should give up kendo and take up something "serious".


yeah, do something "real", you're just loosing time!

[Frame]

this stuff is f'ing ace. Hey i've got a great idea, we've got enough of these people coming onto the forums how about we organize a showdown/league between all of them we've got :

This guy
Aquatic Windu
All those Kenshin wannabes
That guy who started talking about yakuza dojo's and skinning people

My bets are on aquatic windu winning.

Dude, using live blades does not give you credibility. If I hand a child a live blade and another a plastic one, it doesn't make the one with the "live blade" a better martial artist than the other. What you need to do is go back to 16th century japan and test out these techniques.

On another note the flash intro on the website, please give a link to skip it. There is nothing more annoying than having to sit through a "cool" flash intro everytime you visit a site. It was nice the first time but the effect fades fast.

[Paikea]

Wow! it seems that Gatsu's teachings have touched older people, interesting.Like pink-eye or head lice.

[Zoli Elo]

SenseiRobn could easily have a go at the next "Gathering of the Pack (http://dogbrothers.com/wrapper.php?file=gathering.htm)" by the Dog Brothers on June 26, 2005 at the RAW Gym in El Segundo. If some is willing to have a go with him (someone nearly certainly will) he can test out his system against a range of fighting styles in a friendly environment (I do not know any of the pre-registered fighters this time but have know fighters in the past - great fellows). Results are known so it could be a great stepping stone for Zatoichi Ryu.

Zoli Elo

[Charles Mahan]

On the off chance that SenseiRobn is still listening, I'll play.

I have read and made several criticisms of this reverse grip on forums in the past. I am interested to see what you have to say about what seems to me to be the most fundamentaly problem.

How have you overcome the issue of delivering a strong cut at a decent range? In general if you hold a katana, or katana like object, in the grip you espouse, and swing it in such a way that you can reach the maximum distance in front of you, the maximum reach will be very short. In addition to it being short, you must be aware that at this maximum distance your elbow will be somewhat bent. This adds to the shorteining of your reach, but also makes for a very poor configuration of this arm with regards to delivering power to the cut. The more you straighten the elbow to increase your cutting distance, the more stress is placed on the wrist and the weaker the cut will be. Do you have any comment on this fundamental problem with the grip?

These problems do not exist in the traditional grip.

[SenseiRobn]

In response to Kendoka-Jim(Shihan of Jedi-Ryu) - Nothing has come down to a fight. I would simply match them in order to show how effective the Zato style actually is.

In response to Neil Genzwill - You have done nothing but go around and gather info off the internet on me and post it here. I guess you are all about making yourself you look better than most, and at 43 yrs old... Grow up.

In response to Jbyrd - You have had some good comments and I appreciate them. You at least engage in conversation. As for Live Blade Battle, yes. However; not in the way you would think. Live Blade Kumite is basically a show of technique vs technique. There is really no contact except with Straw Mats or Banana Trees.

In response to LNguyen - I guess everything is a joke to you. There are plenty of practicioners that appreciate what I am doing, you don't have to. I never came onto this forum to be ridiculed or made fun of, however, you and some of your online friends have done nothing more than that.

In response to Hisham - I am unsure at what you meant by that.

In response to ProjectNavi - I know you quoted Kendoka-Jim, but I have never said that Kendo was not real. I simply said put down the Shinai and pick up a live blade that cuts something. If you haven't already. There is a big difference between Kendo and any sort of Kenjutsu.

In response to Frame - Nice input. I too would put money on Aquatic Windu (Mace's Uncle?). As far as Live Blades go, I agree with you. It doesn't make you a better Martial Artist. I never said that. Read the response to Project Navi. I don't have to travel back to 16th century Japan to understand that. On the website, thanks for the interest. It is being changed as we speak.

and finally,

In response to Zoli Elo - You are absolutely right, however, it is mostly stick and knife fighting. I am quite familiar with the "Gathering", but it is extremely rare that swords are used. Even Bokkens. However, it is worth checking into. As Bruce Lee once put "Jeet Kune Do" on display at Ed Parker's Tournament to prove that his system, (of which he borrowed a little of this and that from other systems), was more effective than Traditional Martial Arts, I too might have to do the same. Your comment is by far the least challenging, so thanks. All I am trying to do is make available something that has never been available. By that I mean the methods used in the Zatoichi Films.

[ISSAC RU]

In response to Kendoka-Jim(Shihan of Jedi-Ryu) - Nothing has come down to a fight. I would simply match them in order to show how effective the Zato style actually is.

In response to Neil Genzwill - You have done nothing but go around and gather info off the internet on me and post it here. I guess you are all about making yourself you look better than most, and at 43 yrs old... Grow up.

In response to Jbyrd - You have had some good comments and I appreciate them. You at least engage in conversation. As for Live Blade Battle, yes. However; not in the way you would think. Live Blade Kumite is basically a show of technique vs technique. There is really no contact except with Straw Mats or Banana Trees.

In response to LNguyen - I guess everything is a joke to you. There are plenty of practicioners that appreciate what I am doing, you don't have to. I never came onto this forum to be ridiculed or made fun of, however, you and some of your online friends have done nothing more than that.

In response to Hisham - I am unsure at what you meant by that.

In response to ProjectNavi - I know you quoted Kendoka-Jim, but I have never said that Kendo was not real. I simply said put down the Shinai and pick up a live blade that cuts something. If you haven't already. There is a big difference between Kendo and any sort of Kenjutsu.

In response to Frame - Nice input. I too would put money on Aquatic Windu (Mace's Uncle?). As far as Live Blades go, I agree with you. It doesn't make you a better Martial Artist. I never said that. Read the response to Project Navi. I don't have to travel back to 16th century Japan to understand that. On the website, thanks for the interest. It is being changed as we speak.

and finally,

In response to Zoli Elo - You are absolutely right, however, it is mostly stick and knife fighting. I am quite familiar with the "Gathering", but it is extremely rare that swords are used. Even Bokkens. However, it is worth checking into. As Bruce Lee once put "Jeet Kune Do" on display at Ed Parker's Tournament to prove that his system, (of which he borrowed a little of this and that from other systems), was more effective than Traditional Martial Arts, I too might have to do the same. Your comment is by far the least challenging, so thanks. All I am trying to do is make available something that has never been available. By that I mean the methods used in the Zatoichi Films.


Come on , buddy. Just admit you are into the whole $$$ martial art business.
Nothing wrong with that.

[Charles Mahan]

Kinda hoping we cross posted. I'm still interested in your response.

[SenseiRobn]

Yes, I have. With the reverse grip, especially on a straight blade, you need to create a slicing motion as opposed to chop like cut. It is true that if you swing straight out in front of you, the cut will be weak and most likely, non effective. Even the standard Kesa and Hiza Giri cuts (rising and lowering side cuts) cannot be accomplished in this fashion. The one thing that I have discovered is that the Zato Style is to get in closer and turn your body with the cut. It will not only creating the slicing motion you need to complete a cut, but also adds your body as the strength. In essence, it creates somewhat of a fulcrum for powering the cut. In this motion the sword is in line with the arm and the body basically does the work. Does this make sense to you?

[SenseiRobn]

Come on , buddy. Just admit you are into the whole $$$ martial art business.
Nothing wrong with that.

If that were the case, don't you think that I would have my own school again. I had one up until the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, however, when it was destroyed I never re-opened.

As a matter of fact Issac, I am into teaching and giving back some of what I have learned over the years. Does that make sense to you?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You have done nothing but go around and gather info off the internet on me and post it here. I guess you are all about making yourself you look better than most, and at 43 yrs old... Grow up. That's pretty much all we had to do. Against knowledgable people, you really don't have a defence given the information available about you. Even your username gives you away - nobody with any background in real Japanese budo would call themselves sensei. No-one.

As far as what I'm all about - accurate information would about sum it up. So if you were to state that you were teaching movie sword-fighting, much like many people teach stage-fighting, wushu and whatnot, nobody would have a problem with that. We all understand that there are people that want to learn that stuff and furthermore that correct swordplay plays poorly on-screen and so stuntpeople have to learn how to fight for the cameras. It's when you try to pass it off as some sort of actual fighting system that we all call bovine excrement.

[ky0zero]

I am done with explaining myself to the likes of you. My best guess is that most of you, especially the younger ones, have no real experience with Live Blades. Sure maybe Beat Takeshi had a problem with the grip, big deal, listen to what Shintaro Katsu had to say about it. I am sure that you will all be surprised. Besides that, the Reverse Grip is commonly used by those who study Ninjutsu or even Traditional Kenjutsu for that matter. And another thing, how many of you have actually tried to do what was done in the films. It's not awkward or hard to do. Open your minds and try something new. UNTIL YOU HAVE ATTEMPTED IT YOU HAVE ZERO ROOM TO TALK. As for me, well, I've tried Kendo and Kumdo (Korean Version) and I enjoy the battles. TRY IT WITH A LIVE BLADE - THEN TALK TO ME. All that most of you have done is nothing more than belittle yourselves by trying to put me and my doings on the chopping block, and I laugh at those who try to preach their philosophies when you lack all of the etiquette that goes along with whatever degree's you hold. To me, you are all masters of nothing more than your mouths, and I have no more time for your childish antics. Whatever your views are, fine. They're you views. You can keep them. I will continue to move forward with my teaching the Zatoichi Style and watch my students as they win over Traditional Kenjutsu-ists.

I will pit one of them against any of you anytime. Yes, even in an open Kendo bout.

Sensei Robn

Robn (sorry, but i refuse to call you a 'sensei'), martial arts techniques have been created, and they have stood the test time until the modern ages.......why?

Firstly and formostly because of DIRE NECESSITY i.e. war, battles

Secondly it was passed on within the family,

Thirdly it was (and still is) considered a high form of study along with poetry,
religion etc etc...

There are other reasons but i cant be bothered listing them all here. My point is, you've created a style based on a movie. Will 'zatoichi ryu' help ones mental perspective if its studied? But more importantly, was it born out of neccesity for war and fighting? If not then your techniques have not been proven (and never will) and not much though has been put into them.
You mentioned on a previous post it took you YEARS to compile your efforts into creating this. Do you really believe that a martial art, lets say for example Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, took years to come up with? NO! It took YEARS, and YEARS, AND YEARS......and EVEN MORE YEARS through the generations of war to create the style.

[SenseiRobn]

What about this guy that calls himself Kensei? I use the name in places like here or in e-mail for my students. I don't walk around calling myself that. Also, I have never stated that I had CREATED a style called Zatoichi-Ryu. I said that I had founded Zatoichi-Ryu. The syle has been around for many, MANY YEARS. I know the history of Martial Arts, its traditions and passings.

As for you Neil, I am not teaching stage play or movie sword fighting. I am teaching it as a system, in the very same way you teach any art. Not as a fighting system, but as a DIFFERENT SWORD STYLE. Real kata, real waza and real swords. Thats all. It is not bovine excrement.

[KhawMengLee]

What about this guy that calls himself Kensei? I use the name in places like here or in e-mail for my students. I don't walk around calling myself that. Also, I have never stated that I had CREATED a style called Zatoichi-Ryu. I said that I had founded Zatoichi-Ryu. The syle has been around for many, MANY YEARS. I know the history of Martial Arts, its traditions and passings.

As for you Neil, I am not teaching stage play or movie sword fighting. I am teaching it as a system, in the very same way you teach any art. Not as a fighting system, but as a DIFFERENT SWORD STYLE. Real kata, real waza and real swords. Thats all. It is not bovine excrement.


You founded Zatoichi-Ryu? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite....kinda like those pith helmet explorers who 'found/discovered' the Amazon, even tho native indians have lived there for thousands of years.

Its sad to see that even in this modern age, years after the Bruce Lee kung fu hype has passed, that people still try to con the public with their McDojo crap. People like you are bloodsucking parasites who cheat decent hardworking people out of their money.

[Charles Mahan]

Ok. I guess he's not going to reply to my post.

I think this pretty much sums it up:


Also, I have never stated that I had CREATED a style called Zatoichi-Ryu. I said that I had founded Zatoichi-Ryu. The syle has been around for many, MANY YEARS.


Guys. It's clear that he doesn't get it and doesn't really care to. Is there any real reason to continue drubbing him about it? Not only is he calling himself sensei, he hasn't figured out that it's usually name first and then the honorific. Nor does he seem to understand why he can't really say he didn't CREATE the style but did FOUND that style. That's like say, I didn't open the door but it was opened by me. But really, there's no more reason to beat him over it.

I also wish he would not claim to be doing anything real, but he makes no secret about the idea that he has indeed created his own style because he's got a thing for the movies. At least he's not claiming to be the 43rd Daisoke Grandmaster Shihan Renshi Hanshi of the real Zatoichi Ryu which he learned from this old Japanese guy which he met while serving as a Navy Seal stationed in Okinawa. He makes no bones about having made up what he's teaching based on a movie so it seems like a case of buyer beware.

[Charles Mahan]

Correction. He did indeed reply to my post. For some reason when I clicked on view new posts it dropped me down below his post. Wierd.

[Charles Mahan]

Stupid message edit window. Now I'm on my third post ! Arg!


Yes, I have. With the reverse grip, especially on a straight blade, you need to create a slicing motion as opposed to chop like cut. It is true that if you swing straight out in front of you, the cut will be weak and most likely, non effective. Even the standard Kesa and Hiza Giri cuts (rising and lowering side cuts) cannot be accomplished in this fashion. The one thing that I have discovered is that the Zato Style is to get in closer and turn your body with the cut. It will not only creating the slicing motion you need to complete a cut, but also adds your body as the strength. In essence, it creates somewhat of a fulcrum for powering the cut. In this motion the sword is in line with the arm and the body basically does the work. Does this make sense to you?
Nope. Doesn't make any sense at all. How can you avoid swinging straight out in front of you??? Isn't that where the bad guy is?

If you were to face off against a regular iaidoka, the range you will be able to draw and strike at will be some 2 feet shorter than the iaidoka's. That's really really really bad. That's a tremendous distance you have to find a way to cover before the iaidoka or other kenjutsuka can strike you down. And apparently you have to cover that distance turned at some wierd angle so that you don't have to cut in front of you.

I'm sure what you do looks pretty and everything. I'm sure it would impress the judges at an XMA tournament. Especially if you remember to scream your loudest and spray spittle all over them. That seems to be key, but against a trained Kendoka you're gonna get killed 20 ways till sunday before you ever get even remotely close enough to try cutting.

I'm with the others. We only really object to you advertising what you do as anything but sword dancing or movie swordwork. As has been said, real sword work is boring to watch. An instructor at a seminar I attended last year said that, iaido should be as boring as watching paint dry, but rather as boring as watching dry paint. It isn't flashy, flash leads to telegraphing and inefficient motion, which inevitably leads to your death. Movies need flash. XMA and similar tournaments aren't about real swordsmanship but about flash. Great. If that's your thing go for it with gusto, but don't kid yourself or anyone else.

I encourage you to read and think about the reaction you are getting from the traditional JSA world. Not only here but at other forums. It's universally negative. It's not just from a limited subset who think you are doing something a little goofy. It's a pretty much unanimous. Don't let it bug you. Do your own thing. Do it with gusto. Just don't mislead anyone about what you're really doing and nobody will have a real problem with you, although many will continue to scratch their heads.

[jackchen]

I say that there will be situations where reversed grip is more effective. Likewise, there are also situations where reversed grip is less effective.

[Fonsz]

this stuff is f'ing ace. Hey i've got a great idea, we've got enough of these people coming onto the forums how about we organize a showdown/league between all of them we've got :

This guy
Aquatic Windu
All those Kenshin wannabes
That guy who started talking about yakuza dojo's and skinning people

My bets are on aquatic windu winning.


I second this motion and I suggest that we will tape this event and make $$$$$$$ out of it. The winner will be proclaimed to the whole martial arts world as the one and only last Samurai. Now all we have to do is find a place to host this historical event.

[Fonsz]

I say that there will be situations where reversed grip is more effective. Likewise, there are also situations where reversed grip is less effective.
The only legitimite use of the reversed grip is in the Katori Shinto Ryu and that is while they noto(?) (put the katana back into the scabbard.) I was told that this was a precautionary measure. You could stab the just slayed opponent on the ground when you're not sure that he's really dead. At least that's what someone told me.
This reverse grip stuff is all very nice but a Katana was meant to be wielded with two hands so the reverse grip does not have an advantage I suppose. I agree with Mr. Mahan

I'm sure what you do looks pretty and everything. I'm sure it would impress the judges at an XMA tournament. Especially if you remember to scream your loudest and spray spittle all over them. That seems to be key, but against a trained Kendoka you're gonna get killed 20 ways till sunday before you ever get even remotely close enough to try cutting.


Now are there any volunteers over the sea who want to try this experiment? You get the chance to kill someone 20 ways that would be a change for a "boring" shiai. The ever elusive Mr. Lee Roth (David) lives roughly in the neighborhood and I suppose that his career can use a boost. Can anyone contact him? We can also tape this and make $$$$$ out of it.

[Charles Mahan]

The only legitimite use of the reversed grip is in the Katori Shinto Ryu and that is while they noto(?) (put the katana back into the scabbard.) I was told that this was a precautionary measure.

Well that's not entirely true. MJER uses a reversed grip during noto in a couple of places, and Mugai Ryu has a waza where the practitioner is in seiza and the sword is out of the obi and laying beside the user, tsuka forward, on the right side of the body edge out. The saya is kinda slapped off with the right hand and then the sword is drawn by the right hand with a reverse grip and proceeds immediately into a rising cut. Sounds kinda wierd in my description but it is quite functional. I've seen video of it being used for tameshigiri. To my knowledge this is the only time in Mugai Ryu does this and it is specifically to cover the what to do if jumped while sitting with the sword on the ground to the right, where it is particularly difficult to draw. I've heard of a few other instances like this, but in all cases it has been to cover a very specific scenario. Nobody fights this way as a matter of course. Except our friend Mr Robn.

[projectnavi]

I say that there will be situations where reversed grip is more effective. Likewise, there are also situations where reversed grip is less effective.

it seems like someone's trying to follow a thread here ...

don't miss it in between your arguments, gentlemen...

[Fonsz]

Well that's not entirely true. MJER uses a reversed grip during noto in a couple of places, and Mugai Ryu has a waza where the practitioner is in seiza and the sword is out of the obi and laying beside the user, tsuka forward, on the right side of the body edge out. The saya is kinda slapped off with the right hand and then the sword is drawn by the right hand with a reverse grip and proceeds immediately into a rising cut. Sounds kinda wierd in my description but it is quite functional. I've seen video of it being used for tameshigiri. To my knowledge this is the only time in Mugai Ryu does this and it is specifically to cover the what to do if jumped while sitting with the sword on the ground to the right, where it is particularly difficult to draw. I've heard of a few other instances like this, but in all cases it has been to cover a very specific scenario. Nobody fights this way as a matter of course. Except our friend Mr Robn.
So it is only used under certain circumstances where it is difficult to draw but you can actually perform tameshi giri this way? Sounds impressive. But you have to be close to your opponent to do this I suppose. Because I tried to follow your instructions and it actually worked out the way you described it.:)

So now I'm also ready and prepared when I'm drinking a cup of tea and my sword is at my right side. Thank you.

[CryingFreeman]

it seems like someone's trying to follow a thread here ...

don't miss it in between your arguments, gentlemen...

dont worry it hasnt gone unnoticed....

[CryingFreeman]

I say that there will be situations where reversed grip is more effective. Likewise, there are also situations where reversed grip is less effective.

the way i see it
using a reverse grip on a sword
is like firing a gun while its upside down


there are situations where it would be more effective, but they are extreme and incredibly unlikely, it would be unnecessarily difficult, and generally not worth much at all

[jackchen]

it seems like someone's trying to follow a thread here ...

don't miss it in between your arguments, gentlemen...

Geez you make me feel special. :D

[jackchen]

Actually what I was trying to put across is that we shouldn't say "OK, this is uneffective and I'm not going to use it at all." just because you can come up with a situation where the reversed grip is uneffective.

I came across discussions about the reversed grip in other forums, and points brought up by various people were, "unexpected cutting angles", "more blocking ability", "more suitable for close combat indoor use" etc...

[JByrd]

I am not teaching stage play or movie sword fighting. I am teaching it as a system, in the very same way you teach any art. Not as a fighting system, but as a DIFFERENT SWORD STYLE. Real kata, real waza and real swords. Thats all.

There is a direct contradiction there. First you say it isn't a fighting system. Then you claim it is real. How can you have a "real" sword system that is not also a fighting system? Without the concept of fighting an opponent, all you can create is a set of dance moves that use a sword as a prop.

Without the test of fighting real opponents with real swords, your style cannot be proven to be effective. However much modern Kendo differs from true combat, it's roots are in techniques, strategies, and tactics tested in real combat by real people with real swords, at a time when that kind of thing was still done. That's the difference between a legitimate sword art and what you are doing, and your failure to acknowledge that distinction is what is bringing all the heat on you.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Zatoichi (the Takeshi version) came out in Japan last time I was there. I remember they had an interview on a chat show with Takeshi, and he described how he used to mess about with a stick to get comfortable with swinging a sword, and that they even included a move that he had created in the film (they didn't say which one).
Your style is partly based on what some entertainer managed to create while pissing about... congratulations!

Oh, and your punctuation is even worse than gibbo's, but as of yet you don't seem to have gained anything in return for sacrificing these abilities...

[alan dean]

I love to watcvh the Zatoichi
style of fighting with a Katana.

I like the style is so odd, it fits with the idea that Im watching a movie about what is supposed to be the best sword fighter in the world.

It fits the movie that the greatest sword fighter also has his own sword fighting style that is his and is not copied by others.

I think it would be a shame if someone else in the Zatoichi movie had used the same grip and same style...

The point of the movie is that no one is as good as this guy with a sword, and that no one even holds a sword like he does , being he is just that good he knows things no one else knows how to copy....

So when I read that others think that the Zatoichi grip is useless in a real sword fight, I think to myself, "Thats the Point!"

If us normal people could easly copy the Zatoich style, then they would need to invent a new one that we couldnt copy...

[hyuna]

If us normal people could easly copy the Zatoich style, then they would need to invent a new one that we couldnt copy...
I always figured that Zatoichi's style only works for blind people with extraordinary hearing.

[Taisaburo]

Okay, cool. So, now i can watch a bunch of old Kung Fu movies and call myself Sifu? Whoah, roxxors, man!

[alan dean]

I always figured that Zatoichi's style only works for blind people with extraordinary hearing.

yes, it is his hearing, but when I watch I always think there is a bit of the star wars FORCE in play as well.....LOL

He seems to be able to know about things even well out of ear shot, or he can know things he should not be able to know....

his hearing is key, but,,,,sometimes he just seems to know way more than a normal person would...

So being able to sword fight in a way that other people cant fits right into the story line.

[Zoli Elo]

In response to Zoli Elo - You are absolutely right, however, it is mostly stick and knife fighting. I am quite familiar with the "Gathering", but it is extremely rare that swords are used. Even Bokkens. However, it is worth checking into. As Bruce Lee once put "Jeet Kune Do" on display at Ed Parker's Tournament to prove that his system, (of which he borrowed a little of this and that from other systems), was more effective than Traditional Martial Arts, I too might have to do the same. Your comment is by far the least challenging, so thanks. All I am trying to do is make available something that has never been available. By that I mean the methods used in the Zatoichi Films.

They can provide sticks of various lengths and curvatures at the meeting. For example, a friend of mine was able to acquire a stick that approximated a jo quite well - aikijo. Surely if you do well there many here and elsewhere will see you in a new light.

On a different topic, though slightly related: What branch of Daito Ryu have you studied? I ask this primarily for I have a long standing curiosity of practitioners opinions on the slight differences of the kenjutsu found in Daito Ryu compared to that of Ono-ha Itto Ryu in regards to the kata of the kodachi subset...

Zoli Elo

[alan dean]

anyway.....

What I want to know is , how did they film a lot of the stuff that the guy does with his cane sword?

I saw once where he is sitting very close to 3 other people, then I see the sword swishing in the air, just a flash...and stuff starts to fall around the 3 people.

How did they film that?..was anyone ever hurt?
did it take the actor a long time to get each movement correct?

[SenseiRobn]

They can provide sticks of various lengths and curvatures at the meeting. For example, a friend of mine was able to acquire a stick that approximated a jo quite well - aikijo. Surely if you do well there many here and elsewhere will see you in a new light.

On a different topic, though slightly related: What branch of Daito Ryu have you studied? I ask this primarily for I have a long standing curiosity of practitioners opinions on the slight differences of the kenjutsu found in Daito Ryu compared to that of Ono-ha Itto Ryu in regards to the kata of the kodachi subset...

Zoli Elo

Thanks for the info on the "Gathering". I will surely check into it as I believe that you are most correct about taking the Zato Style there and giving it a go. As for the branch of Daito-Ryu that I have studied, it is a very old "classic samurai style" called "Mugai-Ryu". Ever heard of it? I am unfamiliar with the Ono-ha Itto Ryu kodachi subsets, however, I believe they deal with the use of the wakazashi. Is that correct? However, I have also dealved a little into Nitten Ichi Ryu, but that is quite a hard style.

Talk to me brother.

Robn Meeks

[Kaoru]

I always figured that Zatoichi's style only works for blind people with extraordinary hearing.

So I guess that means it would work for me? :D hahaha!

Really, all that happens, is that you just become more aware of your surroundings and pay more attention to sounds because you can't see. It's quite useful. My brothers can't sneak up on me. :D
The hearing isn't at all extraodinary. It just is used more than vision is, so one learns how to use it better.

Really, it doesn't make you better than anyone else at using a sword. You just tend to use your hearing more. You can also sense things using your feet, thanks to vibrations. Try going blindfolded next time at a keiko. Hmmm... This might be a good fun training excercise for anyone if done with a sensei supervising. I just thought of that.

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

yes, it is his hearing, but when I watch I always think there is a bit of the star wars FORCE in play as well.....LOL

He seems to be able to know about things even well out of ear shot, or he can know things he should not be able to know....

his hearing is key, but,,,,sometimes he just seems to know way more than a normal person would...

So being able to sword fight in a way that other people cant fits right into the story line.

The actor isn't really blind, in case you wonder. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

However, I have also dealved a little into Nitten Ichi Ryu, but that is quite a hard style.

Talk to me brother.

Robn Meeks

Just so you know, there is nobody in California authorised or qualified to teach HNIR.(Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu/Niten Ichi Ryu - Same thing.) So, if you are learning it there, you really aren't.

The only place you can learn it is in Guelph, Canada at the Guelph School under Kim Taylor-sensei. There is one other person in Maryland that does HNIR and runs a study group and is allowed to do so, but isn't currently taking students, as far as I know.(But you could ask.) He's the only one in the US allowed to run any sort of HNIR group right now.

Kaoru

[splice]

As for the branch of Daito-Ryu that I have studied, it is a very old "classic samurai style" called "Mugai-Ryu".

That is a very interesting statement. Considering Mugai Ryu was founded in 1695 by Tsuji Gattan Sukemochi, almost a full 200 years before the founding of Daito Ryu by Takeda sokaku, how is it your contention that Mugai Ryu is a "branch" of Daito Ryu? How are the lineages related?

[Kaoru]

It is true that the Zatoichi style that was used by Shintaro Katsu is in fact a fictional style. However, I do teach a very real, and very similar system, that is in-fact called "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman". The style is based off the Shintaro style used in the films, with several, more fluid, alterations that make this a very worthwhile and tough to beat style.

The idea was to take what made the Zatoichi style so impressive and build on it to make it a true, invincible system. By incorporating more circular, non-linear, fluid movements, the ZATOICHI-RYU system brings about an advantage over traditional Kenjutsu. It is not only lightning fast, but very tough to read. My Zatoichi-Ryu style is even going to be featured in an upcoming Action Feature entitled; "DAREMO: Return to Steel" which is currently in pre-production.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG - Traditional Kenjutsu is my foundation and my love - I just wanted something different and have been a Zatoichi fan since I was a kid.

For more info, visit: www.ZATOICHI-RYU.com (http://www.ZATOICHI-RYU.com)

Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks, Founder
Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman

Somehow, I missed this post.

You DO realise there are gonna be copyright issues and other possible legal issues, don't you?

Legally, I don't think you can take this character's name and made up sword art and call it yours. You are likely just begging for a lawsuit if you use this in a film or elsewhere. I know there are two lawyers on this forum. Maybe they'd comment?

You didn't found anything. You just made it up based on one too many movie viewings.

And, it's fake. So, I don't know why you want to do this and pass it off as real. What real training do you have in JSA, if any? Where and what Ryu and teachers please?

Zatoichi is just a fictional character. It is ok to be a fan, but don't stray off that path and think you are something you are not. Swords aren't toys you know. They can seriously injure or kill you. An unqualified person has no business teaching sword. And, I think it is wrong to make use of something that isn't yours to begin with. And, it is wrong to pass off this as a real style. I hope you don't plan on taking people's money and call yourself legit. That would be even worse, and not right. It is basically like stealing if you take their money while not being legit.

Oh, and politics do not play a part in how high ranked you get. It is in how hard you work. If you are only sandan, that is your fault. And, apparently, you made up one or two of the styles you claim to study, so... whatever. And, I don't see how you are even qualified to make up a new JSA. As if anyone in a legit Ryu would do that anyway.

Personally, I think this is a disgrace. All you want to do, is make money off a movie. That is wrong.

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Wow. That is all that I can really say. You guys all call yourselves Martial Artists, and yet you have nothing but criticisms and potshots to write. I am amazed. DO NOT get me wrong, I am not writing in defense of my previous statements, as that would sink me to the lesser levels that I am approached with, but I am interested in "WHY" you are all so skepticle about what I have taken unto myself to create/adapt... uh, make available.


A HA. You DID create it and make it up.
You didn't just "found" it like you claimed.

You watched too many movies.

Why? Since the Zatoichi films are now available on DVD, more and more fans have emerged. Old and new.

Oh, so you wanted to cash in on the fandom, huh? How noble of you.

Hanwei (Paul Chen) has even recreated a fantastic version of the Zatoichi Shikomi-zue.

Did you know that it is meant for a wall, and not for real use? Put it away before you seriously injure or kill either yourself or someone else.

The one thing that WAS missing, was the teaching of the sword style.

The reason it is missing? It's not REAL!

I have been practicing the techniques used in the films FOR YEARS now and have honed it to a more practicle style. Why is that such a joke or even sketchy and Richmond-san so elequently put it?

Why? Because you made it up after watching so many Zatoichi movies.
Do you understand how dumb and dangerous that is??

You are all TRUE Martial Artists, right? (I believe that you are.) Maybe I should ask this... "Is it the fact that I have called it Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman, that disturbs you so much?" Ask me about the Mon-tsuki? Ask me what I have done to make the style an applicable style. Ask me why I chose "Zatoichi-Ryu" as the name. Ask me before you judge me. When I have explained, then judge. That is how a true Martial Artist would approach something like this.


It isn't so much the name as the fact that you don't seem to know reality from fantasy. Zatoichi is a fake character and the stye is fake too. See? As an aside, taking the name and using it is wrong.

Most of you, I am sure, hold Yudansha or higher, and I do understand some of your skepticism's, however, your calling me a joke and sketchy, well that is just straight out BS and ignorance.


No it isn't. It is BS and ignorance to think that what you are doing is real and not fake.

Oh, and BTW, you are putting EVERYONE you are teaching this thing to in serious danger by having them use real blades. That is completely irresponsible and negligent. You are asking for a death at some point by doing this. And, it would be your fault. Stop being so stupid! Live blades are dangerous. Did you not know that?? *sigh*

Kaoru

[ukenagashi]

theres no need to make a sword style that you have copied into a practicable style coz ther wil be no need to use it outside of the dojo like any other style. cant you just stick with what styles are actually real and available?

[alan dean]

cant you just stick with what styles are actually real and available?

well....there is something to be said for haveing fun...
and watching a movie is meant to be fun, (thats the reason they made the movie in the first place)

So while we should never confuse a movie sword fighting style with real life sword fighting...still....why not have a little fun with odd styles now and then?

who knows, the guy might get good enough at the Zatoichi style that he actually show some talent...

[Fonsz]

well....there is something to be said for haveing fun...
and watching a movie is meant to be fun, (thats the reason they made the movie in the first place)

So while we should never confuse a movie sword fighting style with real life sword fighting...still....why not have a little fun with odd styles now and then?

who knows, the guy might get good enough at the Zatoichi style that he actually show some talent...
Or start his own series located in LA whilst battling the forces of evil while the French female martial artists are on a tour to invade California to topple the celebrity regime. Mr. Lee Roth could sing the soundtrack. We could make $$$$ out of this. I already dumped 3 sound ideas here where we could make an honest buck. Any other investers for this adventure?

[SenseiRobn]

My humblist apologies to all of you. Your comments and criticisms have been duely noted and taken at the depths from which they were made. By coming here I not only made a fool out of myself but seriously damaged whatever reputation I had had as a serious martial artist. I am sorry that you all do not see what I was seriously trying to do. And after reading my own bio, was completely uprooted from my pretty much solidified foundation.

Fact: My bio was not written by me. It has since been removed as has the Zatoichi-Ryu CafePress Store. The person who wrote the bio has been repremanded for depicting me in a false fashion. She had written that I was a 4th Dan in Daito-Ryu and that I had CREATED the system in discussion.

Fact: My kenjutsu experience comes from two places. Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu and Mugai-Ryu Kenjutsu (Somthing he called Shin Ken Ichi Ryu). Both of which were taught to me by Delfin D. Labrador, Jr. in Fairbanks, Alaska. I believe that Ono-ha Itto Ryu is NOT the only sword style contained in Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu. Mr. Labrodor is proof of that. And just for the record, I obtained black belt status with Mr. Labrador, nothing more.

Fact: The only thing that I have been maintaining here is that I had founded the Zatoichi-Ryu. If my Japanese is up to par, "Zatoichi-Ryu" simply means "School of Zatoichi". Please correct me if I am wrong. It is true that I had studied the moves that Shintaro Katsu (NOT Beat Takeshi) had used in the movies. They had to have come from somewhere, therefore not fiction. It is also true that I have worked very hard on perfecting the motions and then, as any true martial artist would, adapt them to work for me, which I believe that I have. By working with many of my kenjutsu/kendo friends, I have adapted and developed something that I truly believe works in combat. At least for me and a small group of others.

Final Fact: The ONLY reason I chose to call it Zatoichi-Ryu is because that is where it came from. Founding a school is no different than a black belt going and opening his own dojo and teaching the same style that he has been taught, under a different name.

So please don't judge me based off of something that I did not write, nor because I was actually in a very bad movie. Who cares about all of that. Meet me, talk to me and train with me - then judge. I believe that would be fair. For the record, I HOLD EACH OF YOU IN HIGH REGARD.

Again my apologies for starting a quarrel that was never intended. I don't think that anyone consciously sets out to damage their credibility. I know that I didn't, yet most likely have.

Robn Meeks
Humble Practitioner of Shin Ken Ichi Ryu (Mugai-Ryu)

[Paburo]

that's interesting what has been said about the reversed grip. i always wondered why the change in the seitei iai uke nagashi...

when i get iai shodan i will found the gennosuke hattori ronin itto-ryu :D :D :D

[alan dean]

QUESTION:

If you wished to use Zatoichi's style of grip, but use 2 swords and not just the one cane sword......would it appear just as cool on film?

[SenseiRobn]

QUESTION:

If you wished to use Zatoichi's style of grip, but use 2 swords and not just the one cane sword......would it appear just as cool on film?

There are a few of the films where he actually uses two swords. It's okay, but a great deal of the coolness was his lightning fast draw before fighting 90,000 would be samurai. Speaking of which, I believe in #4 Zatoichi: The Fugitive, there is a great sequence where he shows off his quick draw skill, when cutting a candle vertically. He actually grips the handle with split fore and middle fingers, draws the sword and slices downward, spins the blade and resheaths all in about a second and a half. It's a very cool, beautiful movie trick that Shintaro came up with all by himself.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I will pit one of them against any of you anytime. Yes, even in an open Kendo bout.

Sensei Robn

what does a closed kendo bout look like then?

[Kaoru]

My humblist apologies to all of you. Your comments and criticisms have been duely noted and taken at the depths from which they were made. By coming here I not only made a fool out of myself but seriously damaged whatever reputation I had had as a serious martial artist. I am sorry that you all do not see what I was seriously trying to do. And after reading my own bio, was completely uprooted from my pretty much solidified foundation.

Fact: My bio was not written by me. It has since been removed as has the Zatoichi-Ryu CafePress Store. The person who wrote the bio has been repremanded for depicting me in a false fashion. She had written that I was a 4th Dan in Daito-Ryu and that I had CREATED the system in discussion.

Fact: My kenjutsu experience comes from two places. Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu and Mugai-Ryu Kenjutsu (Somthing he called Shin Ken Ichi Ryu). Both of which were taught to me by Delfin D. Labrador, Jr. in Fairbanks, Alaska. I believe that Ono-ha Itto Ryu is NOT the only sword style contained in Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu. Mr. Labrodor is proof of that. And just for the record, I obtained black belt status with Mr. Labrador, nothing more.

Fact: The only thing that I have been maintaining here is that I had founded the Zatoichi-Ryu. If my Japanese is up to par, "Zatoichi-Ryu" simply means "School of Zatoichi". Please correct me if I am wrong. It is true that I had studied the moves that Shintaro Katsu (NOT Beat Takeshi) had used in the movies. They had to have come from somewhere, therefore not fiction. It is also true that I have worked very hard on perfecting the motions and then, as any true martial artist would, adapt them to work for me, which I believe that I have. By working with many of my kenjutsu/kendo friends, I have adapted and developed something that I truly believe works in combat. At least for me and a small group of others.

Final Fact: The ONLY reason I chose to call it Zatoichi-Ryu is because that is where it came from. Founding a school is no different than a black belt going and opening his own dojo and teaching the same style that he has been taught, under a different name.

So please don't judge me based off of something that I did not write, nor because I was actually in a very bad movie. Who cares about all of that. Meet me, talk to me and train with me - then judge. I believe that would be fair. For the record, I HOLD EACH OF YOU IN HIGH REGARD.

Again my apologies for starting a quarrel that was never intended. I don't think that anyone consciously sets out to damage their credibility. I know that I didn't, yet most likely have.

Robn Meeks
Humble Practitioner of Shin Ken Ichi Ryu (Mugai-Ryu)

BTW, Mugai Ryu Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu as it is actually called, is an old Koryu, and does not have another name. Whoever says they taught it to you doesn't know what they are talking about I guess. There is no such thing as a Shin Ken Ichi Ryu, that is a real legit Koryu. Mugai Ryu is never called that.

Mugai Ryu Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu is something entirely different.

I did a search on e-budo(A very well known scholarly budo site) and on the net itself, and found no such person anywhere. He's not well known at all as far as the JSA world is concerned. I am wondering if he really did study Mugai Ryu since he thinks it is called this. There is very little Iaido in Alaska in the way of Koryu. I found no Mugai Ryu on my own search. I will now have to go ask some people I know to find out if there is any authorised Mugai Ryu Iai there and who it is taught by, if any. I am pretty sure that to get to the Kenjutsu curriculum, you'd have to first learn the whole Iai curriculum. But, you say you only did Kenjutsu. So, I find that odd. Splice-san? He knows lots more about this, it seems.

Information on Mugai Ryu:

http://koryu.com/guide/mugai.html

Kaoru

[Taisaburo]

Mugai ryu isn't Kenjutsu, it's Iaijutsu. Nothing to do with Kenjutsu besides the norm.

[Kaoru]

Mugai ryu isn't Kenjutsu, it's Iaijutsu. Nothing to do with Kenjutsu besides the norm.

I know it isn't. You're right, that it is only Mugai Ryu Iaijutsu. But, Koryu.com has it listed as Iaijutsu with Kenjutsu like this: Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu. I knew there is no seperate Mugai Ryu Kenjutsu ryu.

Sorry I was not clear on what I meant. Take a look at the Koryu.com site. That's where I saw it listed that way. I did know that Mugai Ryu is Iaido/Iaijutsu. I just didn't realise it also had a Kenjutsu curriculum until today, when I went to Koryu.com to see if it had anything to do with Kenjutsu since Robyn mentioned Mugai Ryu Kenjutsu. So yes, Mugai Ryu is not called Kenjutsu. It's Iaijutsu.

Oh, and I just remembered to go check the Mugai Ryu site for dojo listings. There are only a very few authorised Mugai Ryu study groups in North America. There is currently no study group in Alaska where Robyn says he learned it, according to the official Mugai Ryu website here:

http://www.iai.gr.jp/en/mugai_northam.htm

There are no licensed instructors of Mugai Ryu in North America currently.

Kaoru

[SenseiRobn]

Both of you are correct, however, I did learn from Delfin (Dale) Labrador. Here is a link to a post he made a few years ago.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1610.html

He does not mention his Mugai-Ryu, however, I can assure you that he is who taught me, what he called "Shin Ken Ichi Ryu", (an off-shoot of Mugai-Ryu I presume) in Fairbanks. He moved from Fairbanks in 1995 and founded the Shinkokan Dojo in Anchorage, however, I believe that the school is no longer there.

His iai and kenjutsu skills were excellent and seeing that he was my senior in Shudo-Kan Karate-Do, I asked him to teach me both Aikido and Kenjutsu and he obliged. I can tell you that he is part of the Yoshinkan Dojo out of California, but that is all that I now know of my old Sensei.

Robn Meeks (no "i" or "y")

[SenseiRobn]

Oh, and seeing as a few of you are really working on getting my history... here is the link for my old dojo in Fairbanks, Ak. Where I trained in both Shudo-Kan and Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu both with Delfin Labrador and his uncle So-Shihan Charles Scott, owner and chief instructor of the IKA College of the Martial Arts.


http://www.ikaalaska.com/

Robn Meeks

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Originally Posted by SenseiRobn
My humblist apologies to all of you. Your comments and criticisms have been duely noted and taken at the depths from which they were made. By coming here I not only made a fool out of myself but seriously damaged whatever reputation I had had as a serious martial artist. I am sorry that you all do not see what I was seriously trying to do. And after reading my own bio, was completely uprooted from my pretty much solidified foundation.

Fact: My bio was not written by me. It has since been removed as has the Zatoichi-Ryu CafePress Store. The person who wrote the bio has been repremanded for depicting me in a false fashion. She had written that I was a 4th Dan in Daito-Ryu and that I had CREATED the system in discussion.

Fact: My kenjutsu experience comes from two places. Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu and Mugai-Ryu Kenjutsu (Somthing he called Shin Ken Ichi Ryu). Both of which were taught to me by Delfin D. Labrador, Jr. in Fairbanks, Alaska. I believe that Ono-ha Itto Ryu is NOT the only sword style contained in Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu. Mr. Labrodor is proof of that. And just for the record, I obtained black belt status with Mr. Labrador, nothing more.

Fact: The only thing that I have been maintaining here is that I had founded the Zatoichi-Ryu. If my Japanese is up to par, "Zatoichi-Ryu" simply means "School of Zatoichi". Please correct me if I am wrong. It is true that I had studied the moves that Shintaro Katsu (NOT Beat Takeshi) had used in the movies. They had to have come from somewhere, therefore not fiction. It is also true that I have worked very hard on perfecting the motions and then, as any true martial artist would, adapt them to work for me, which I believe that I have. By working with many of my kenjutsu/kendo friends, I have adapted and developed something that I truly believe works in combat. At least for me and a small group of others.

Final Fact: The ONLY reason I chose to call it Zatoichi-Ryu is because that is where it came from. Founding a school is no different than a black belt going and opening his own dojo and teaching the same style that he has been taught, under a different name.

So please don't judge me based off of something that I did not write, nor because I was actually in a very bad movie. Who cares about all of that. Meet me, talk to me and train with me - then judge. I believe that would be fair. For the record, I HOLD EACH OF YOU IN HIGH REGARD.

Again my apologies for starting a quarrel that was never intended. I don't think that anyone consciously sets out to damage their credibility. I know that I didn't, yet most likely have.

Robn Meeks
Humble Practitioner of Shin Ken Ichi Ryu (Mugai-Ryu)



Humble practisoiner? hold you in high regard? uprooted from your solidified foudnation>? this sounds so utterly pretentious its almost comical

[Kingofmyrrh]

Both of you are correct, however, I did learn from Delfin (Dale) Labrador. Here is a link to a post he made a few years ago.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1610.html

He does not mention his Mugai-Ryu, however, I can assure you that he is who taught me, what he called "Shin Ken Ichi Ryu", (an off-shoot of Mugai-Ryu I presume) in Fairbanks. He moved from Fairbanks in 1995 and founded the Shinkokan Dojo in Anchorage, however, I believe that the school is no longer there.

His iai and kenjutsu skills were excellent and seeing that he was my senior in Shudo-Kan Karate-Do, I asked him to teach me both Aikido and Kenjutsu and he obliged. I can tell you that he is part of the Yoshinkan Dojo out of California, but that is all that I now know of my old Sensei.

Robn Meeks (no "i" or "y")

He's clearly an aikido type - nothing wrong with that - but it's quite common for aikido people to think that they know something about kenjutsu. In 90% of cases, they don't.

[mingshi]

As the topic is about whether Zaitoichi Ryu exists - I don't care about what aikido you learn before..!


Fact: The only thing that I have been maintaining here is that I had founded the Zatoichi-Ryu. If my Japanese is up to par, "Zatoichi-Ryu" simply means "School of Zatoichi". Please correct me if I am wrong.
Why is it not Zaitoichi Gakkou???
Double-check your Japanese. Ryu means a stream/branch/style, etc.

It is true that I had studied the moves that Shintaro Katsu (NOT Beat Takeshi) had used in the movies. They had to have come from somewhere, therefore not fiction.
Jedi knights had to come from somewhere, therefore not fiction. Oh well just call it kendo. :rolleyes:

[Yiu Fai]

Jedi knights had to come from somewhere, therefore not fiction. Oh well just call it kendo. :rolleyes:

Nah, call it Jedi-Ryu :rolleyes:

[ren_kuroda]

This thread was amusing until Mugairyu was dragged into it. I really do not enjoy it when my beloved ryu is disparaged. No idea who this guy is, or what he does, but I can absolutely assure you whatever it is has absolutely nothing to do with any of the legitimate lines of Mugairyu, be it iai or kenjutsu.

Regards,
r e n

[Charles Mahan]

I wonder if Charles Scott or Delfin Labrador studied under Kuniba back when he was still claiming to teach Mugai Ryu. This might explain why the name of what was being taught in Alaska was changed from Mugai Ryu to Shin Ken Ichi Ryu.

[splice]

BTW, Mugai Ryu Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu as it is actually called, is an old Koryu, and does not have another name. Whoever says they taught it to you doesn't know what they are talking about I guess. There is no such thing as a Shin Ken Ichi Ryu, that is a real legit Koryu. Mugai Ryu is never called that.

Mugai Ryu Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu is something entirely different.

I did a search on e-budo(A very well known scholarly budo site) and on the net itself, and found no such person anywhere. He's not well known at all as far as the JSA world is concerned. I am wondering if he really did study Mugai Ryu since he thinks it is called this. There is very little Iaido in Alaska in the way of Koryu. I found no Mugai Ryu on my own search. I will now have to go ask some people I know to find out if there is any authorised Mugai Ryu Iai there and who it is taught by, if any. I am pretty sure that to get to the Kenjutsu curriculum, you'd have to first learn the whole Iai curriculum. But, you say you only did Kenjutsu. So, I find that odd. Splice-san? He knows lots more about this, it seems.



Actually, I know nothing about Mugai Ryu save the little information I can google. It simply seemed very strange to have an art over three hundred years old (as per founding date on koryu.com) presented as a branch of a much younger art, as branches (ha) usually come after their parent art, not before.

At any rate, I wouldn't present much about Mugai Ryu as fact, including the names it might be known under. It would be very difficult for me to say something like "Mugai Ryu has never been called that", since I've never had any contact with Mugai Ryu folks, never practiced their art, never researched their history and their possible branches. It would take a large amount of research for me to feel comfortable about making such a statement, and since there are people much closer to the source, better to stay silent and let them contribute what they know as opposed to what I found out in a short time on google. And we all know what quick searches on google are worth; for example:


I did a search on e-budo(A very well known scholarly budo site) and on the net itself, and found no such person anywhere.


Unfortunately, I found the person very easily on google, including his aikido affiliations, his phone number, and his videos.

I try to keep quiet in threads on arts I'm not involved with or know nothing about. I avoid much embarassment that way, as I'd constantly be making wrong statements based on shaky googling or misinterpretation. I also like to think that people might take me a bit more seriously if I make statements on a subject, as they might otherwise recall how many times I talked about arts that were not my own and how I was wrong about some things. There are people involved in most of the arts discussed, they're much more qualified (and will be taken more seriously) than I could ever be.

And in this particular case, it's more than clear-cut enough to make a judgment about "Zatoichi Ryu" without making any statements about Mugai Ryu and the rest of the strange claims. Mr. Robn admitted clearly that he created the style from the movies. It's clearly not koryu, and there is no debate there. We all know what the art is and where it comes from, so what's the problem? You can cry till the cows come home about people founding arts based on movies or books all you want, that won't ever stop them. All you can do is inform yourself and know what you're getting into, and hope the rest of the people do the same.

At any rate, this thread sure has become very long... Oh, and look, now Ren has popped up to talk about Mugai Ryu. No surprise in what he says, but would I have been taken seriously if I said the same? I'd like to think not, and that's the way it should be.

PS: Just a quick note, Kaoru: you often start your messages with "Minna-san". That is not correct Japanese, afaik (but a common mistake in the "learning japanese" communities everywhere). It's either "Minna" (informal)" or "Mina-san" (formal), same kanji.

[Fonsz]

The plot is thickening, is Movie star/Ryu founder/Martial Artist genuine? Did he actually learn Kenjutsu in the outer realm of the US of A? There's no turning back now that the folks from E-Budo are at his heels. The fair Kaoru has also struck down as the ever avenging angel of justice that she is..........( what kept you so long???)

Why can't people just practice Kendo and learn the hard way that there are no short cuts in life. We who have to suffer in our Bogu and die a thousand deaths every time we put on a men are being confronted by others who make iffy or false claims and say that they have invented the wheel and or have seen the light. This is a serious Kendo and related arts Forum (and the fact that the hot girl in bogu thread is I think the best viewed is no coincidence). Why can't they just all go away and leave us be on our Kendo Forum................
...........Crawling away in a corner after I've torn my t-shirt from my chest.

[alan dean]

Does anyone else watch the Independent Film Ch?

They play all the Zatoichi films every Saturday at 7:00 in the morning...

I really am stunned at the way the actor resally gets a person into the idea that he really is the best sword fighter in the world....it's very cool the way his grip on his sword is so different than the rest of the guys in the movies.

Oh, whiole we are talking about movie sword grips... in KILL BILL 1, I think I remember that Oh Ren Ichi cuts the head off this one Japanese guy and you get to see she used a Zatoichi grip in one shot.

[Alex_McGrady]

...Why can't people just practice Kendo and learn the hard way that there are no short cuts in life. We who have to suffer in our Bogu and die a thousand deaths every time we put on a men are being confronted by others who make iffy or false claims and say that they have invented the wheel and or have seen the light. This is a serious Kendo and related arts Forum (and the fact that the hot girl in bogu thread is I think the best viewed is no coincidence). Why can't they just all go away and leave us be on our Kendo Forum................
...........Crawling away in a corner after I've torn my t-shirt from my chest.

(LOUD APPLAUSE)..........No wonder I am a proud member of the "Fonsz Fan Club". You hit the nail right on the head with that one. With all the REALLY off topics that there have been on this thread... I was away from here for three months franticly searching the internet for something called "The REAL Kendo World Forum". What happen to the topics on actual kendo? Why does everyone claim to be the strongest? Let's play kendo and enjoy ourselves!!!!

May our shinais cross so that we shall all become friends.....

Alex

[Hyaku]

I am done with explaining myself to the likes of you. My best guess is that most of you, especially the younger ones, have no real experience with Live Blades. Sure maybe Beat Takeshi had a problem with the grip, big deal, listen to what Shintaro Katsu had to say about it. I am sure that you will all be surprised. Sensei Robn

and....
All that most of you have done is nothing more than belittle yourselves by trying to put me and my doings on the chopping block, and I laugh at those who try to preach their philosophies when you lack all of the etiquette that goes along with whatever degree's you hold. To me, you are all masters of nothing more than your mouths, and I have no more time for your childish antics. Whatever your views are, fine. They're you views. You can keep them. I will continue to move forward with my teaching the Zatoichi Style and watch my students as they win over Traditional Kenjutsu-ists.

I will pit one of them against any of you anytime. Yes, even in an open Kendo bout.


Ouch.....

Shintaro Katsu (1931-1997) acted, directed, and produced films. By all accounts he also lived a wild life of sex, drugs, and general misbehavior. Did time for drugs found by customs.

I have seen one of the guys working for Wakakoma Pro the well known Tateshi group (movie/TV fight arrangers) do some quite effective draws and tameshigiri cuts using the backhand method in a free techniques section of a Batto Taikai. Nevertheless, its not a Ryu and Wakakoma work on this stuff. For......... movies.

A chokuto simply describes a straight edged Japanese sword, not a Ryu.

I have worked in education and practiced Budo in Japan now for 23 years. "Everyone" calls me Sensei but the wife. Our fast running cat just had 4 beautiful kittens we call her "Scooter Sensei now. Certainly taught us a lot.

Never yet not once have I ever called or signed myself as "Sensei"

Mikusu or Lobin san (as you would be called here) I think you might need to learn a bit about how titles are attached to names in Japanese. Still why not go with the flow if you are doing battle with live swords the name Mikusu Sensei could go well with what you have got "Mikusud up".

If I go blind and bleach my hair I might give you a call.

[Kaoru]

Still why not go with the flow if you are doing battle with live swords the name Mikusu Sensei could go well with what you have got "Mikusud up".


Oh my... ROTFL! That was clever! :D

Kaoru

[KhawMengLee]

It is true that the Zatoichi style that was used by Shintaro Katsu is in fact a fictional style. However, I do teach a very real, and very similar system, that is in-fact called "Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman". The style is based off the Shintaro style used in the films, with several, more fluid, alterations that make this a very worthwhile and tough to beat style.

The idea was to take what made the Zatoichi style so impressive and build on it to make it a true, invincible system. By incorporating more circular, non-linear, fluid movements, the ZATOICHI-RYU system brings about an advantage over traditional Kenjutsu. It is not only lightning fast, but very tough to read. My Zatoichi-Ryu style is even going to be featured in an upcoming Action Feature entitled; "DAREMO: Return to Steel" which is currently in pre-production.


Osu!

Sensei Robn Meeks, Founder
Zatoichi-Ryu: Way of the Blind Swordsman


Yeah, Shintaro also acted in the semi-porn seriesHanzo the Razor (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007PAMKQ/qid=1118722629/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6226051-1785506?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846) so are you developing a ryu that uses your willy as a weapon?

[Fonsz]

Yeah, Shintaro also acted in the semi-porn seriesHanzo the Razor (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007PAMKQ/qid=1118722629/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6226051-1785506?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846) so are you developing a ryu that uses your willy as a weapon?
Hello Khaw,
I just had a look at the link that you have graciously provided, and it made my day. They are a bit steep but I would love to watch one of those just for sheer curiosity. You might have given some people a big idea to combine their favorite pastimes and make money out of it. Priceless info. Carry on.......

[JAMJTX]

This "ryu" has no connection to Kuniba, and I don't see any reason to even drag his name into it here as there has never even been a hint of his affiliation.

As a reminder, Kuniba learned Mugai Ryu from Ishii Gogetsu who was the 14th Soke at the time.

Ren, is there an English language version of the mugairyu.com web site yet?

Jim Mc Coy

[Charles Mahan]

Ok. It was just a supposition. There are other Mugai Ryu folks outside of Kuniba and the main line. Perhaps they got their Mugai Ryu through Pitchford-sensei in Chicago, or perhaps they just made it up. Who knows.

[Kaoru]

This "ryu" has no connection to Kuniba, and I don't see any reason to even drag his name into it here as there has never even been a hint of his affiliation.

As a reminder, Kuniba learned Mugai Ryu from Ishii Gogetsu who was the 14th Soke at the time.

Ren, is there an English language version of the mugairyu.com web site yet?

Jim Mc Coy

So far, just this is up:

http://www.iai.gr.jp/en/mugai_northam.htm

I wish the rest of the site was in English too.

Kaoru

[ren_kuroda]

So far, just this is up:

http://www.iai.gr.jp/en/mugai_northam.htm

I wish the rest of the site was in English too.

Kaoru
Yeah, I know, I have to update it. The Japanese site has been redone, but I am army of one out here, and haven't gotten all the English together, coordinated with the webmaster, etc...it will happen some day!

Regards,

r e n

[Sua_Sponte]

I found this forum today while trying to find some information about who makes good reproduction japanese swords. I have two brothers, they are twins and both are heavily into martial arts. The first used study various Korean arts including tai kwon do, and he also studied combatitve akido, eventually having his own school. The second also started off with tai kwon do, but then found an interest in jeet kun do. I know Im probably biased, but Ive seen them both do amazing things. Myself I have barely studied anythin, I took an interest in boxing when they took up the martial arts, and then there was the training I had in the military, while not quite limited it was not concerned with forms or art, but direct results. But, I beleive I have digressed enough.

On to my point...


I read this thread because it caught my eye while looking for the information I was after. I am by no means a martial arts expert, far from it in fact, but I would have to accept that most of the folks that have posted information in this thread disputing Robn's claims are knowlegable, some in the extreme. What I understand about the martial arts is that it isnt just about combat but about finding something deeper in yourself. This is something I envy about martial artists, there is no spirtiual side to what I do, its strictly about the results.

After reading through this thread, I must say that the way some of the respondants have conducted themselves here is rather obtuse. The big argument I see is that what this fellow Robn has created is not effective in the real world, which may be true, I am not an expert on any sort of swordplay. I would challenge in response however with this:

How many of you feel that your 25-40 inch sword is a match for my 30 rounds of 5.56 nato or 40mm grenade in my M4?

Sure his style isnt effective in any sort of real battle, but then none of yours is either unless you have a time machine...



This was not posted as a flame or an attack, but rather something to think about. And as I said before, I envy the skill it takes to do what you folks do, but at the same time I know that just wasnt meant to be my path.

[Andou]

How many of you feel that your 25-40 inch sword is a match for my 30 rounds of 5.56 nato or 40mm grenade in my M4?


First of all, I understand what it is you're trying to say. I get the same question from many people. What you must understand is that we're not learning Kendo to help defend our country. We are doing this to cultivate ourselves (whether it be the mind or body). It would be a gallant but foolish thing to carry a sword into Iraq expecting to last as long as one equipped with a rifle. We know this. We don't go around with our shinais with the thought of dispatching the enemy. Secondly...my sword is like 90 inches long.

[jackchen]

I found this forum today while trying to find some information about who makes good reproduction japanese swords. I have two brothers, they are twins and both are heavily into martial arts. The first used study various Korean arts including tai kwon do, and he also studied combatitve akido, eventually having his own school. The second also started off with tai kwon do, but then found an interest in jeet kun do. I know Im probably biased, but Ive seen them both do amazing things. Myself I have barely studied anythin, I took an interest in boxing when they took up the martial arts, and then there was the training I had in the military, while not quite limited it was not concerned with forms or art, but direct results. But, I beleive I have digressed enough.

On to my point...


I read this thread because it caught my eye while looking for the information I was after. I am by no means a martial arts expert, far from it in fact, but I would have to accept that most of the folks that have posted information in this thread disputing Robn's claims are knowlegable, some in the extreme. What I understand about the martial arts is that it isnt just about combat but about finding something deeper in yourself. This is something I envy about martial artists, there is no spirtiual side to what I do, its strictly about the results.

After reading through this thread, I must say that the way some of the respondants have conducted themselves here is rather obtuse. The big argument I see is that what this fellow Robn has created is not effective in the real world, which may be true, I am not an expert on any sort of swordplay. I would challenge in response however with this:

How many of you feel that your 25-40 inch sword is a match for my 30 rounds of 5.56 nato or 40mm grenade in my M4?

Sure his style isnt effective in any sort of real battle, but then none of yours is either unless you have a time machine...



This was not posted as a flame or an attack, but rather something to think about. And as I said before, I envy the skill it takes to do what you folks do, but at the same time I know that just wasnt meant to be my path.
I would agree with you that some people here in this Kendo Forum have the wrong attitude and are too close-minded.

[Andou]

I would agree with you that some people here in this Kendo Forum have the wrong attitude and are too close-minded.

Not closed-minded about food...Some of the things in that one thread about eating things and enjoying it was pretty eccentric...But...I know I'd try some of it at least once.

[Sua_Sponte]

Oh and back to why I came here in the first place, can anyone point me to a good place to find info on a good (read it is intended to be used for whatever it was originally intended for) Sword for under 1000 us dollars. Its getting close to time to buy my brothers some birthday presents.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There isn't really anything under $1000 that's worth your time if you want a functional weapon for Japanese swordsmanship. You can get a nice iaito starting around $300. You can get a decent Chinese made sharp blade in good mounts starting around $1200. You can get a so-so Chinese made sharp blade in crappy mounts for about the same price as a iaito.

[Sua_Sponte]

what about 1500?

[samurai]

I don't know if it is fictional or not, if the others say it isn't then I believe them, but I know that the Takeda Ryu has a reverse grip. I have tried it, it is hard but interesting. You just have to get used to it. :)

[ShinKenshi]

Wow, reading through all these posts has made me come to realize something: there are way more martial arts frauds than there should be. The first thing that Robn did wrong, in my point of view, is assume that techniques seen in movies are real and could be adapted into a new usable form. It amazes me that so many people assume that what they see in movies, anime, and on tv are real and altered slightly if at all. Granted that some things are real but by default people shouldn't take what they see at face value. Secondly, using live blades with people who have no idea what they're doing? Now that's just stupid and dangerous. Honestly, I feel that the best way to reduce the number of crocks like this is to really research a martial art prior to attending a single practice and then following up that information by talking to the sensei and seeing if what they do and say matches up to yo