Jodan - How to counter

[Ross]

Hi

In Keiko, my Sensei often likes to go into Jodan. Now it is my place to attack him but I just can't figure out where an how. As soon as my kensen moves, he makes a men.

I have tried for kote (both sides) - I thought about Do, but no chance and I am not exposing myself to his cut - I thought men would be best, try to get it just before he gets mine, but nope, no luck.

Any advice what to try... I am obviously no match for him and I am 100 times slower, but would like to try something to get there and not just get hit.

Tonight I was thinking of ichitoshi (spelling) do...... will let you know how hammered I get :ko:

[cst]

Try a tsuki one or 2 handed than block\counter to men...

[hamish]

Just stay in his face and keep up your seme, attack and don't let him get comfortable in jodan. How long have you been doing kendo, anyway?

[Will]

Try a tsuki one or 2 handed than block\counter to men...

tsuki isn't really a proper attack to use against your sensei

[Neil Gendzwill]

Always ask first with your sensei, but IMHO taking jodan pretty much invites tsuki. If you feel your student is ready to fight against your jodan, you ought to think him ready to use tsuki as well. I'd like to hear if anyone thinks differently on this point.

[LNGUYEN]

Then another question, I am not Shodan yet so technically, I can't use Tsuki. Last weekend, one of my Sensei start Jodan against me, can I use Tsuki or just concentrate on other technique like Men, Kote, and Do?

[junkyman]

Set a trap. Leave your kote open and wait for him to go for it. I can't think of the name of the waza but as soon as he tries for the kote pull it in and up so he misses and the go for men. The momentum from his jodan strike will make it hard to recover from that miss in time to do much about it if you time it right. This works against nito as well.

[Cheese_Man]

Set a trap. Leave your kote open and wait for him to go for it. I can't think of the name of the waza but as soon as he tries for the kote pull it in and up so he misses and the go for men. The momentum from his jodan strike will make it hard to recover from that miss in time to do much about it if you time it right. This works against nito as well.

Yeah thats a great waza its called kote nuki men, i havent had a whole lot of experience fighting jodan or nito guys but from what litlte i have ive learned that you need to constantly keep moving and watch your distance if they are in jodan its always good to move more to your right htat way you cover the kote and they have to constantly get re setup for the attack leavinv them exposed or out of sync just IMO

[Neil Gendzwill]

Oddly enough that very same trap works extremely well the other way around - hidari kote looks very tempting to the chudan player, and all the jodan player need due to avoid it is lift his hands a bit. Then the men comes down pretty quick and hard.

[MaxPayneWayne]

Set a trap. Leave your kote open and wait for him to go for it. I can't think of the name of the waza but as soon as he tries for the kote pull it in and up so he misses and the go for men. The momentum from his jodan strike will make it hard to recover from that miss in time to do much about it if you time it right. This works against nito as well.

Only problem is is that the other guy can be setting a trap for you and you won't even know it. I can usually tell when people open up their kote for me, though it doesn't happen very often. If your opponent knows you are setting him up, he can in turn use that to his advantdage, i.e. do a fake kote, expect your reaction, and hit you. Or he can just go for the men while you're expecting the kote.

[yangs]

It is not proper and rude to tsuki your sensei. My sempais, when taching us tsuki, always warning us not to use tuski agaisnt any sensei before the sensei use it first. I don't really know the why, but since my semapis who are nidan and sandan, never use tsuki against senseis, I think it better not to use it.

To attack a jodan player, one of my sempai suggest aim your sword at his left kote instead of his tuski. Since jodan player have longer maai, chudan tsuki is not really a threat to him. And this give you faster blocking time and will put preasures on your opponent since the easiest target is left kote. His men is blocked by his arms, so there is no point going for men and watch for his "opening do". Since jodan player have faster attacking speed and longer range, it is hard to get into a good range to strike his do.

Like people above says, try to use the chance after he strikes. My sempai says jodan player usually have longer recovery time especially the one strike with only left hand. So I think wait might be the best thing to do. Get closer and closer to him and watch out for his dogging by walking backward. I always get hit by that move.

[moocow65]

I don't think it's improper to do tsuki on a sensei especially if they do jodan. As long as you've properly practiced doing tsuki before doing it during keiko, I see no problem with it. Most people do tsuki in keiko without practicing it on a dummy beforehand. That it why tsuki is dangerous, because idiots try to do it during keiko without having an idea on doing it properly. I think it just discourages people from doing tsuki if people think this way. I did a yokomen on Takahashi Sensei (Japan Team Head Coach) when I was 18 and a 2-dan. He saw no problem with it, and he actually smiled. Sure enough he threw one at me and I ducked to avoid it. We both had alot of fun. As long as you can do a strike properly, I say go for it. If your sensei gets mad, then I think the sensei has a problem. Afterall, tsuki is a valid point in kendo. Why not learn and practice it?

[kendokamax]

yup

Totaly agree with moocow.

My teacher in Budai actually asked us to do tsuki more often in keiko,

only thing is to be carefull, dont do tsuki or big taitari(??) on old sensei (75 and up), I mean dont try to brutalize them. But 50-60 years old sensei is just fine I think!

[Ross]

I should have put my rank here, I am only 4th kyu at the moment and have been told not to tsuki.

Last night we did a lot of nuki-men in practice so when it came to keiko and sensei went into Jodan quite early, I was patient and when he made his cut, I steped back a little and countered. The men was not to good, and glanced off the side, but I did not get cut and I was closer than before. :smiley:

Thanks for all the other replys... I will keep them in mind next time and see if I can get a cleaner men..... if I have time to think about it.. lol

PS: last night was the first time Sensei used tsuki against me..... luckey I had just started moving left and it missed....... was close though.

[Shazzanzzz]

if someone goes for a tsuki, if you can't block/deflect it, let them hit it... i mean, you want them to hit it, else it's gonna hurt!

Just pressure the jodan player, from my experience, they are more susceptible to pressure, since they don't want you to get close to them. If they're pressured, everything else is easy.

[JSchmidt]

Distance is the key to fighting against jodan.
Keep in mind that the jodan player will have longer reach than you so even when you can't hit him, he can hit you!.
So..keep on the edge of his hitting distance, try to lure him to attack, by moving in and out of that distance and when he does attack, try to use nuki/harai/suriage waza.
Alternative is to move in close, but you'll need a very strong seme to get away with that, otherwise you will most likely get hit on the way in.
Personally, I think that (in principle) doing jodan against a 4th kyu is too early. (Although I did do it when I was living in NZ, but then those 4th kyus should have graded eons ago).
As for tsuki, you need to be very good at it for it to have any effect. Otherwise it's just a very nice opportunity for the jodan player. If he goes into jodan, he should accept that you will attempt tsuki.

Jakob

[kawa]

I should have put my rank here, I am only 4th kyu at the moment and have been told not to tsuki.

Last night we did a lot of nuki-men in practice so when it came to keiko and sensei went into Jodan quite early, I was patient and when he made his cut, I steped back a little and countered. The men was not to good, and glanced off the side, but I did not get cut and I was closer than before. :smiley:

Thanks for all the other replys... I will keep them in mind next time and see if I can get a cleaner men..... if I have time to think about it.. lol

PS: last night was the first time Sensei used tsuki against me..... luckey I had just started moving left and it missed....... was close though.

4 kyu?..They have no business going Jodan on you.
************
Here a technique you can use to discourage person from doing Jodan on you..

* Since Jodan player like to "suck" you in. Don’t fight it, do exactly what they want you to do by going in closer, as soon as you detect any movements get into tai-a-tari position with your shinai protecting your Right Kote and Men.

[Bayushi-Shoju]

Lol, hey last night was my first time in Bogu and boy did I get it lol. It made me realize just how slow I am. And my Sensel is a very good Jodan player lol when he went into Jodan im thinking Crap here it comes lol Hey i enjoyed beinh mamed and im not even graded at all yet. I guess that would make me 10th kyu in Bogu lol Oh the tsuki issue i would ask Sensei first before hand if Tsuki is open for use. I personaly dont like Tsuki because there to much to go wrong and if i miss the other guy is probly going to Tsuki you back lol.

Jordan

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Circle to your left, if you move to your right you are moving right into alignment with their cut. If you circle to your left they have to either come across their body or turn with you to keep you in front of them. If you are off a step or two to their right, you can cut them, but it's difficult for them to get to you, so keep moving in that direction to keep them busy moving instead of having time to set you up. Sometimes you can also creep in as you circle to stay inside that range where they can cut and you can't.'Course since it's your sensei you'll probably get hit anyway. :rolleyes:

[JSchmidt]

If you circle to your left, you're opening up your kote....

Jakob

[NukF]

There are several attcks against Jodan possible.
Your best chance for shiai is the moment at the beginning when your opponent moves into jodan kamae. In that situtation you have to attack this kote quickly. That is his dead point.
Jakob is right. Against Jodan you have to move, best on the right side not the left, because this opens your kote. Doing semè against his left kote hitting the right and the other way around.
Check out how your opponent reacts on several attacks. If the fight is trying to block or avoids being hit by lifting his arms(kote) then try to use the openings that result on this behaviour.
If the opponent is more agressive atting you a soon as your are in range then use suriage, nuki or kaeshi against his attacks.
In general Jodan is a agressive kamae. Therefore you have to try to dominate the shiai using strong kiai and by strong semè.


Ulf

[Nishi]

Just stay in his face and keep up your seme, attack and don't let him get comfortable in jodan.

Exactly... fight fire with fire. (spirit with spirit)

Faking tsuki will also bring his/her hands down to protect...this opens men and hidari-kote...but Hamish is totally correct!!

[akumalkenshi]

I think that tsuki is one of the hardest points to score. its one of the easiest to defend from, all it takes is that you protect your center line with proper chudan /kamae.

therefore the timing to execute the tsuki is crucial. I have only been able to do it once in keiko, and it was not planned. I went for debanna kote and before I realized went for an opening, that I seized to score a katate tsuki.

Time froze, and the satisfaction I took from it still lasts.

As my sensei says.." the body will ask for tsuki when you are ready.." thats how it happened.

Normaly I dont plan on using tsuki, I have a great respect for that technique. in my view when you execute advanced waza techniques, you should never fail.

In other words, practice it hundreds of times before you attempt it in keiko.

[Kirin]

As JSchmidt said, distance is the key.
so you must keep moving around, never stand still.. otherwise you will be great target for katate men/kote.

Also you must make jodan commit (lure him to commit)
From hira-seigan or gyaku-kasumi, suriage-waza is very effective.

...or you can use seme on hidari-kote and go for men or migi-kote, or tuki-men...... must use seme on 2 diffrent datotubu.

Most of all, dont let him take jodan. Once he strikes, he must go back to jodan again. So when he try to go jodan, hidari kote or tuki.

[kendokamax]

how can you call tsuki an advanced technique : its pure basic

[Old Warrior]

"how can you call tsuki an advanced technique : its pure basic"

But it can cause significant injury if you miss!!!

[JSchmidt]

"how can you call tsuki an advanced technique : its pure basic"

But it can cause significant injury if you miss!!!
That's one of the risks you accept when you take jodan.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

That's one of the risks you accept when you take jodan.

Jakob

Whoahhhhhhh, the subject (as I see it) is the difficulty of the strike and the potential consequences of using the technique badly. I don't think one should be using a technique that can cause significant injury if you aren't very good at it. Now I admit, that I am an ignorant and low ranked kenshi, which is exactly why I consider tsuki an "advanced technique". I think it is best if I avoid trying it until I have gained sufficient skill (from practice on a non human target) to make it reasonably likely I will hit what I am aiming at.

[JSchmidt]

I largely agree, but when you take jodan, you should expect missed tsuki's.
If you don't like that idea, you shouldn't do jodan.
I actually normally invite 'juniors' to practice tsuki against me when I'm in jodan. By far the most people are very worried about using tsuki, due to the (largely percieved) injury-risk...oh and the only time I've been 'injured' by it (Last week actually..bruised the top of my throat, making it very hard to enjoy the beer afterwards), was by a 4th dan.

Jakob

[kilic]

Set a trap. Leave your kote open and wait for him to go for it. I can't think of the name of the waza but as soon as he tries for the kote pull it in and up so he misses and the go for men. The momentum from his jodan strike will make it hard to recover from that miss in time to do much about it if you time it right. This works against nito as well.
IMHO having a good technique and strong kendo is more proper way than trying to fool people. moreover setting a trap against your senseis may not be a good idea. :)

[not-I]

IMHO having a good technique and strong kendo is more proper way than trying to fool people. moreover setting a trap against your senseis may not be a good idea. :)
Junkyman is talking about the standard kote-nuki-men waza, i think.
But the very idea of "setting a trap for your sensei" has to be the funniest thing i've heard all day! Thanks for that! :smiley:

[junkyman]

What's funny about it? I have had pretty good success with this against sensei using Jodan & Nito, its not always easy but as long as my distance and timing are on (and my kote isn't TOO obviously open) I usually have a decent chance and it works often enough to say it is a good strategy.

Against chudan its way way more difficult but it even works there once in a while.

[not-I]

What's funny about it?
Sorry, i was thinking of myself trying to "lay a trap" for my sensei, and i just found that hilarious. It's mostly the other way around in my experience. :wink:

But of course, there's nothing funny about the waza itself. I'll have to try it against our jodan guy.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Both positions (hidari and migi-jodan)
Ulf
Does hidari vs. migi-jodan have an affect on the question of circling right vs left? After the posts from JSchmidt and NukF I tried circling to my right last time my sempai who does jodan took it, and I got walloped (worse than when I circled to my left even) when I circle to the left I seem to have a small chance, when I circle to the right both men and kote are there for his picking. He uses what I think is migi-jodan (shinai pointing back over his right shoulder) and it seems that when I move to my right (toward his hand on the end of the tsuka) I am moving into what is the natural path of the shinai when he just brings his left arm straight down, which is what usually happens with the shinai landing on me in the process.

Of course, maybe it is something unique to either me or him since he is the only person I usually practice against jodan with.

[Neil Gendzwill]

migi or hidari refers to whether his right or left foot is forward. Typically in hidari jodan the tip is angling back a bit to the right (his right) and in migi jodan it's straight back. Another variation would be gyaku-jodan with the grip reversed, which could also be migi or hidari.

In any case, don't circle either way. Stay straight, stay centred, guard your kote and try to get him to attack first.

[W.Su]

If he is much faster than you are, then whatever you do, he can strike you from jodan anyway. The best way is to lure or pressurize your opponent to strike out, that is, cede the jodan by attacking you, then countering. Inching closer and threatening the men is one way.