fighting with live blades

[xifoarhos]

ive been watching videos of kata, and all the time i see attack, evade, counter attack. from what ive read on swordsmanship in japan, it eventually became stagnant because swordsman were masters in counterattack. i wonder if this is how sword fights went in japan. short and over in one move. are there any extended videos where the fight is not over in one counter attack?

[Will]

see the problem with finding videos of old school japan fighting with swords is that video technology wasn't invented.

Pioneering Britisher Eadweard Muybridge (1830-1904), an early photographer and inventor, was famous for his photographic loco-motion studies (of animals and humans) at the end of the 19th century (such as "The Horse in Motion"). In 1870 at a Sacramento (California) racecourse, he first used a row of 12 cameras, equally spaced along the racetrack, to record the movement of a galloping horse, to prove that all four of the horse's feet were off the ground at the same time. In 1877-1878, he repeated the experiment for his wealthy San Francisco benefactor, Leland Stanford, using 24 cameras to record another horse's gallops.

Muybridge's pictures, published widely in the late 1800s, were often cut into strips and used in a Praxinoscope, a descendant of the zoetrope device, invented by Charles Emile Reynaud in 1877. The Praxinoscope was the first 'movie machine' that could project a series of images onto a screen. Muybridge's stop-action series of photographs helped lead to his own 1879 invention of the Zoopraxiscope (or "zoogyroscope"), a primitive motion-picture projector machine that also recreated the illusion of movement (or animation) by projecting images - rapidly displayed in succession - onto a screen from photos printed on a rotating glass disc.

Around the same time, Parisian innovator and physiologist Etienne-Jules Marey was also studying, experimenting, and recording bodies (animals) in motion using photographic means (and astronomer Pierre-Jules-Cesar Janssen's "photographic revolver" idea). In 1882, Marey, often claimed to be the 'inventor of cinema,' constructed a camera (or "photographic gun") that could take multiple (12) photographs per second of moving animals or humans - called chronophotography. [The term shooting a film was possibly derived from Marey's invention.] He was able to record multiple images of a subject's movement on the same camera plate, rather than the individual images Muybridge had produced. His chronophotographs (multiple exposures on single glass plates and on strips of sensitized paper - celluloid film - that passed automatically through a camera of his own design) were revolutionary. He was soon able to achieve a frame rate of 30 images. The work of Muybridge and Marey laid the groundwork for the development of motion picture cameras and projectors - hence the development of cinema.

But all this happened AFTER samurais (by title) was abolished, and by then, guns were used in battles. So to answer your question, no there are not extended videos of battles being over in not one strike.

[Bleda]

You don't need to go back in time to see samurai fight though. Many of the iai koryu have techniques over 700 years old. As for the question, yes it does seem that most fights were over in one or 2 hits. A sword fight was decided quickly and brutally with the lesser skilled oponent often making the first mistake followed by a counter attack. Duels often took place with the 2 swordsmen changing positions of the sword into different kamaes to draw an attack, after that the fight itself was a short affair.

[not-I]

ive been watching videos of kata, and all the time i see attack, evade, counter attack. from what ive read on swordsmanship in japan, it eventually became stagnant because swordsman were masters in counterattack. i wonder if this is how sword fights went in japan. short and over in one move. are there any extended videos where the fight is not over in one counter attack?
Well, the third kata goes on a bit longer. For modern screen "re-enactments," although it's cheesy, that one scene from The Last Samurai where Tom Cruise is bokken-sparring with the guy who had earlier given him a beatdown, and the other guys are betting on how many moves it will take, is a good example. But of course, the duel scenes in any Kurosawa movie take the cake. Point being, they all finish pretty quickly and were nothing like the typical European stab/parry/slash/parry/stab/parry/etc. duels you see in pirate movies.

Another important thing to remember about historical duels with katana between "average" swordfighters is that, typically, both of them ended up dead or critically injured. Even the great Musashi got knicked on the forehead in his famous duel with Sasaki.

[xifoarhos]

i was not referring to videos of actual samurai duels. but heres a follow up to my post. kenjutsu is supposed to be composed of powerful high commitment strikes. when you attack someone, they will counter attack. has anyone thought of a fake first attack, or one without too much strength so you can receive the counter attack? from the way you describe kenjutsu(with duels of average swordsman in which they are both killed or terribly wounded), it seems barbaric and inelegant. i believe duels were not actually like this. when using live blades, its difficult to throw yourself straight forward as is done in kata. also, for those of you who read the book of five rings, the way musashi describes his fights, they seem to be longer and consist of more swordplay. also, a treatise on swordsmanship called discourse with the tengu(im sorry but ive forgotten the author and its japanese name), the author speaks of swordplay flowing from the swordsman. this also indicates longer fights. id think that samurai would see others hurling themselves forward with a strike, only to be cut down with a counter attack enough times that they would be smart enough to not do that.

[xifoarhos]

heres something i forgot to add. as for the bokken duels in the last samurai, thats more of wat im talking about. and ive also read in yamamoto tsunemoto's book hidden leaves, a few accounts of sword fights that went on pretty long, with the participants sustaining cuts, but nothign crippling to the effect that they cant fight. once they got a wound like that they wer finished off.

[Bleda]

One of the main reason why japanese duels did not go on for long was the lethality/trauma of the blows recieved. The hard, deep cuts combined with the sharpness of the sword left people seriously wounded and often dead as compared to the smaller nicks and cuts that rapiers would often inflict. Even a lethal stab with a rapier would take time to manifest itself leaving the oponents to continue to tussel.

I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to throw yourself forward with a live blade, if you train enough it doesn't matter what blade you are holding, its the natural reaction and movement of your body to attack. If you instead try fakes and weak hits you run the risk of the oponent killing you while you waste your time with non-dangerous moves. If you're going to waste the energy and open yourself up to danger you usually want to be sure that your going to win the exchange.

As for musashi and the other stories, musashi's duels were not long, about 30 seconds of actual sword fighting if that. The rest of the time was spent studying the oponent and goading them to make the first mistake.

[Fallen]

I'd think most sword fights where over quickly, but remember no one is alive who can say yes or no to that fact. even those who write about swordsmanship, may seem to talk for ages on a particular battle but there is no time relationship. If you think about flowing cuts a bit you realise that they don't mean long battles, if anything flowing cuts would make them shorter. My reasoning is this: flowing cuts means you can potentially strike more often and with greater conviction whereas what you say about fake cuts would only serve to 1)make you slower and 2) give an opening for them to cut with.

[ben]

...has anyone thought of a fake first attack, or one without too much strength so you can receive the counter attack? from the way you describe kenjutsu(with duels of average swordsman in which they are both killed or terribly wounded), it seems barbaric and inelegant. i believe duels were not actually like this. when using live blades, its difficult to throw yourself straight forward as is done in kata...

Xifoarhos: It is obvious you don't practice kendo or kenjutsu, only read and think about it, because if you did practice, you wouldn't have these questions. So if you want to really find answers, then get thee to a dojo!

ITMT, kendo emphasises ippon (the single decisive cut) for aesthetic, philosophical *and* practical reasons. However many schools of koryu bujutsu have extended kata. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (see if you can find the BBC TV series "Way of the Warrior" from the 80s for some great footage) has some pretty lengthy kata. TSKSR from the little I've seen is a rather swashbuckling style, and I don't mean that disparagingly at all. "Ran-ai", the last kata from Muso Shinden Ryu Jodo has umpteen attacks and counters before reaching a "conclusion".

If you're interested in battlefield psychology, the International Hoplological Society have a website. Don Drager was the founder and he used to set up all kinds of crazy reconstructions of battle situations for research purposes. Probably stopped short of using live blades though.

b

[Wout]

faking is dangerous, if someone sees your fake and attacks full- strength you'll end up being the only one hit, but it's usefull if you can pull it of.

[not-I]

kenjutsu is supposed to be composed of powerful high commitment strikes. [...] from the way you describe kenjutsu(with duels of average swordsman in which they are both killed or terribly wounded), it seems barbaric and inelegant.
If it seems barbaric and inelegant to you, it is likely that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of Japanese swordsmanship. As Ben and Bleda comment (and you yourself affirm), kenjutsu -- as well as modern kendo -- concerns itself with totally committed strikes with the whole body ("sutemi"). "Faking," purely defending, or otherwise fooling around is what is considered inelegant, as well as cowardly. A samurai, especially in the early days, was expected to lay down his life in battle without a thought, especially when the odds were stacked against him. In a duel situation, such as what one finds in kendo today, the time for tactics is before any strike has been made -- sizing up the oppenent, looking for openings, encouraging him to attack first in order to evade and counter, etc. Any defence is supposed to automatically lead to a counter-attack: defend-ATTACK! rather than DEFEND-attack. This is where the "flow" you were speaking of comes into play.

In a historical duel between swordsmen of equal skill without armor, the likely outcome was death or critical injury for both because of the lethal weapon used (katana), the close range, and the commitment to the initiated cuts. In a duel between unequals, the more skilled would be more likely able to cut and evade the opponent's cut. We experience this in kendo often. For instance, A strikes kote, B strikes men, both valid strikes. But with real swords, B would be missing his hand and A would probably be dead.

[meow]

from the way you describe kenjutsu(with duels of average swordsman in which they are both killed or terribly wounded), it seems barbaric and inelegant.
Imagine a real fight with real swords: It´s a life and death situation. I think there was no room for elegance. (Although very skilled swordfights possibly looked beatiful and elegant in a certain way...) It was about hit or get hit.

And slashing someone with a katana surely is not beautiful to watch. You cut to kill or injure your opponent seriously.


greetings

meow

[xifoarhos]

i dont practice kendo or kenjutsu in a dojo or with someone skilled in the art, but i do spar. me and some friends spar with bokkens, and ive acquired some experience. if musashis fights were only about 30 seconds, but that 30 seconds consisted of movment and not just sizing up the opponent, then that would be a long fight.

heres a situation that i would like you to answer what youd do. your opponent is standing in front of you, with his sword pointing at you. yes im aware that this is how all fights start, and there are many many other important factors, but you need not apporoach your opponent with the idea of makign him attack, because hes waiting for you to attack so he can counter attack. what would be wrong in trying to manipulate your opponents blade or to try and force it aside?

[Neil Gendzwill]

me and some friends spar with bokkens, and ive acquired some experience.
You've acquired experience in swinging sticks with your friends. You've acquired no knowledge of swordsmanship.

what would be wrong in trying to manipulate your opponents blade or to try and force it aside?
Nothing, we have many techniques to do just that. If you'd ever practiced any form of swordsmanship you'd know that.

The best way to learn this stuff is to do it under the supervision of a teacher. Practicing with friends in the back yard doesn't cut it. Learning from books doesn't work either. Find a dojo, try this stuff out for a few years, then you have some background for your theories.

[litige]

your opponent is standing in front of you, with his sword pointing at you. yes im aware that this is how all fights start,

That is also not true.

[xifoarhos]

well it may not be true, but for dueling purposes and discussing how quickly fights end, it is the simplest. if you want to create scenarious with different stances then go ahead.

[litige]

well it may not be true, but for dueling purposes and discussing how quickly fights end, it is the simplest. if you want to create scenarious with different stances then go ahead.

You know nothing about kenjutsu, so how could you tell it would be the simplest?

[Bleda]

Harai are just those techniques for moving an opponents weapon away from center to get an opening. But even with these techniques there is a good chance that the sword will return to center before you finish your attack and wound you. The best sword fighters were those able to fight from the defense since counter attacks were often the most effective tools.

You obviously have your own idea of swordsmanship and dueling though that is more based on western type of non-lethal thrusts and slashes.

[xifoarhos]

im sorry, ive been looking over my posts and can see what i really meant was not clear. my biggest question is, if swordsmanship got to the point that swordsman could counter any attack and kill in next move, ending fights extremley fast, then why would their oppoent not anticipate this and be able to stop the counter attack? i dont believe fights ended that quickly, not only from this thought, but fom japanese literature from the time that ive read, including "the book of five rings", "hidden leaves", and "discourse with the tengu".

[Will]

because not all attacks are counterattackable?

[xifoarhos]

if you dont mean attacks with are merley sidestepped and then the attacker dies, please explain. what kind of attacks leave you without an oppening? horizontal swings?

[Bleda]

Every attack leaves you with out an opening. If the opponent wants to kill you with out reguard for his own life there is a very high chance of him succeding. While you are attacking you can not defend. Your hope is that the opponent will be forced to defend there by preventing him from attacking or the oponent is in a moment of weakness allowing you to attack.

im sorry, ive been looking over my posts and can see what i really meant was not clear. my biggest question is, if swordsmanship got to the point that swordsman could counter any attack and kill in next move, ending fights extremley fast, then why would their oppoent not anticipate this and be able to stop the counter attack?
Because a properly executed counter attack is infinately more difficult to defend and counter against. The counter attack works because your sword is in the ready position to defend, it is in a neutral place easily moved to where it needs to go, when you attack and are countered effectively your blade is usually pushed from center or rendered ineffective or just plain out of position. If you attack me men and i have time to execute any of about the 12 different counter attacks i know 9 out of 10 times you will be dead or seriously wounded.

As for you not believing fights to end quickly, no where in those books does it even come close to the length of a western duel with rapiers that scratch and poke as you are thinking of. The fights they describe happen in a matter of seconds, many moves, but VERY fast. The only duels that last are the ones that they are unable to get a definitive kill shot in, and those are very few and far between.

I hope this hasn't been a waste of typing though since it seems you are set on believing that eastern duels were some kind of mystical parry, counter, parry, counter, parry, counter, parry, counter kind of fight that just didn't really happen except in the most extreme cases. If you would ever like to see how effective the defensive fighting style is, feel free to come to miami and look me up =P.

[Will]

um, as counter attacking techniques improved, so did ppl's skills on initiating the attack...i guess.

[Twobitmage]

whoa wait a minute, do you mean blades as in iaito? (dull) or as in sharpened katana?

[Revenir]

What I don't see is how would samurais be able to keep a fight longer than 30 seconds... If either one of them made a commited attack, they'd either have killed their opponent, missed given the opponent an opening and died, or have come into close range since their opponent made an attack which stopped their own. I don't know what happens when they come into close rane of each other but I think it would be fairly quick since if I remember correctly, someone on the forum said tsube-zeriai is a kendo thing right? and it doesn't quite work like that in real life?
I would have trouble keeping a fight longer than 10 seconds in kendo without anyone scoring a point (if we both tried our hardest), and longer than 15 if you allowed tsubezeriai and hiki waza...

Edit: I'm probably grossly overestimating the times, I really can't tell time when I'm in keiko mode... and every shiai I've been either lasted forever or ended in 10 seconds.

[xifoarhos]

i know fights arnt nearly as long as rapier fights. what i find hard to believe are how fast the fights end. fights that are only a few seconds but have mayn moves are believeable. the videos of kata i watched are what made me skeptical. the attacker moves in, swings down. his opponent side steps it, and swings down on the attacker. after the downward swing misses, the attacker does nothing. he dosnt try and evade his opponents blade, he makes no motion to block it.

[Will]

because kata isn't real combat, it just simulates the scenerios.

[xifoarhos]

are there any schools that practice sparring with bokken? i heard taht buddist monks with excellent cotrol spar with blades, but i highly doubt that.

[Will]

no, you hurt people when you do that.

[not-I]

are there any schools that practice sparring with bokken? i heard taht buddist monks with excellent cotrol spar with blades, but i highly doubt that.
While some Buddhist monks practice swordsmanship, NO ONE uses live blades or bokken to spar with - that's just crazy. Two-person techniques you might see with either weapon are pre-arranged kata, and both people know what they're doing and when to do it. Kendo was invented to make possible "full-contact" sparring without the risk of death, lost limbs, or broken bones.

Xifoarhos, it's been said before by Ben, Neil, and others, and i'll just say it again in the most polite way possible:

If you really want to see how actual Japanese sword technique works, and perhaps eventually understand what the theory is all about, quit stick-fighting and speculating, and get your ass to a dojo!

[Genji]

i have an old film clip of two preists (who look to be in there 60+ or - 5-10 years) anyway they are using blades and not bokken...this clip can be downloaded from kazaa its actully pretty cool

[not-I]

i have an old film clip of two preists (who look to be in there 60+ or - 5-10 years) anyway they are using blades and not bokken...this clip can be downloaded from kazaa its actully pretty coolbut they are doing kata and not sparring, or else they are looking to compose very poignant death verses.
would you happen to have the link?

[xifoarhos]

and how would a kendo dojo show me what actual japanese sword fighting was like? even people who practice kendo say their techniques would not work with real swords. ive realized that the onlyl way to see what actual japanese sword fighting was like, is to watch people fight with real swords. and not just a few fights, but have people who have trained and won fights, and have some experience fight each other. but thats not gonna happen. however, i have heard that in japan, since gun control is so tight, gangs use swords, and lower level gangs use bokken. but im not willing to go over and watch people kill each other. i will stick with bokken sparring, because its not as limited as kendo in terms of where you strike. its not as dangerous as you think. we wear protective gear, and do not use full strength. although not using full strength does place severe limitations, its the best we can do right now.

[JHusch]

and how would a kendo dojo show me what actual japanese sword fighting was like? even people who practice kendo say their techniques would not work with real swords. ive realized that the onlyl way to see what actual japanese sword fighting was like, is to watch people fight with real swords. and not just a few fights, but have people who have trained and won fights, and have some experience fight each other. but thats not gonna happen. however, i have heard that in japan, since gun control is so tight, gangs use swords, and lower level gangs use bokken. but im not willing to go over and watch people kill each other. i will stick with bokken sparring, because its not as limited as kendo in terms of where you strike. its not as dangerous as you think. we wear protective gear, and do not use full strength. although not using full strength does place severe limitations, its the best we can do right now.
Wow....the Short bus has internet connectivity.........:rolleyes:

[Bleda]

and how would a kendo dojo show me what actual japanese sword fighting was like? even people who practice kendo say their techniques would not work with real swords. ive realized that the onlyl way to see what actual japanese sword fighting was like, is to watch people fight with real swords. and not just a few fights, but have people who have trained and won fights, and have some experience fight each other. but thats not gonna happen. however, i have heard that in japan, since gun control is so tight, gangs use swords, and lower level gangs use bokken. but im not willing to go over and watch people kill each other. i will stick with bokken sparring, because its not as limited as kendo in terms of where you strike. its not as dangerous as you think. we wear protective gear, and do not use full strength. although not using full strength does place severe limitations, its the best we can do right now.
Obviously his life long quest for japanese sword arts have never taken him to learn much about the sword at all. Perhaps you should try to think a little xi, such as that kendo came from dueling and as a way to learn with out killing each other, the techniques are teh same but the application is a little different. If you wish to be a bit more traditional though, perhaps kenjutsu which is quite realistic in terms of sparing and attacks. While everything won't work it works alot better than your bokken sparring. Finally if you want to learn responses to sudden attacks and drawing cuts then iai will teach you. Personally i think iai is the one that shows how quickly sword fights really were. But, it seems you are content to live in ignorance and fantasy, then so be it. BTW you should watch the 7 samurai, yojimbo, or even the samurai trilogy to get a much better sense of how a duel was fought, even if it was staged.

[frederico]

i will stick with bokken sparring, because its not as limited as kendo in terms of where you strike. its not as dangerous as you think. we wear protective gear, and do not use full strength. although not using full strength does place severe limitations, its the best we can do right now.

yes, i also think that hiting softly in eath other with bokken really represents what medieval japanese swordfights was all about...





.... please.

i know.. i could do a smarter comment and try to make light on his head like everyone else.. but ill not.

[ShinobiKenjutsu]

what would be wrong in trying to manipulate your opponents blade or to try and force it aside?Such things work fine in western fencing, particularly the french styles, which in many ways, and god knows I'm treading dangerous ground in saying this, are superior to most asian sword fights, though they are prolonged in most cases, they are faster and more versatile.

However.

The swordsmanship involved in kenjutsu involves decisivly powerfull blows that aim to maim, slice, and in anyway kill an opponent, whilst rapier fencing exudes focus of the parry, the counter, and the stab movements, a show of dexterity and speed rather than dexterity and power. In kenjutsu, it is a matter of only one move to defeat an opponent simply due to the movements involved, and the power encased. There is simply no time in most fights for anything fancy. In Kenjutsu waza it is a matter of anticipating your opponents strike, and turning it to your advantage in as great a manner as possable, as is the teaching of most waza.

Now, i dont go for layman hating. I've lived long enough to know it is fruitless. I think that if you truly have a desire to learn swordsmanship, you should get involved in Iaido, rather than kendo, or perhaps even join a fencing club and get aquainted with sabre, foil, and rapier fencing before the more intensive, if less gaudy arts of eastern swordsmanship. At the very least, get a book on suburi or kenjutsu. There are some great laymans publications out there, and I think you would enjoy them. The martial arts are a great way to center your self.

[not-I]

Now, i dont go for layman hating. I've lived long enough to know it is fruitless. I think that if you truly have a desire to learn swordsmanship, you should get involved in Iaido, rather than kendo, or perhaps even join a fencing club [...] The martial arts are a great way to center your self.
Shinobi, no one is "layman hating" here. If you follow the thread, you'll see that Xifoarhos was provided with honest answers as well as references and advice, which he chose to ignore (not the first time this has happened on this board). Some light bashing then followed. Though he admits to having no formal training, he insists he knows better about Japanese sword arts based on books and movies and seems to have created his own art based on The Last Samurai, sparring with bokken-wiedling buddies in hockey gear in his backyard.

While i'm sure that's fun, he is learning nothing about Japanese sword arts, which is what he professes to be interested in. As (almost) everyone knows, the only way to learn JSA, whether kendo, iaido or kenjutsu, (or any MA, for that matter) is to practice with a teacher in a dojo, There are plenty of us evil "newbie bashers" in this forum who are also more than willing to help people find a dojo if they are sincerely looking. (And yes, this is an open invitation to you, Xifoarhos.)

[xifoarhos]

theres really no need for hostilities. you dont understand bokken sparring. its not soft contact, and it was started before the last samurai was even advertised.
ive beaten a few kendo practitioners, although i dont know theyre rank, so dont think that this is just little boys fantasising with swords. as for iaido, it does not show a real sword fight. iaido is speed and technique, to kill your opponent fast. iaido was also considered dishonorable by many samurai, because they thought it dishonorable not to give your opponent a chance. the samurai who practised it said a true warrior was ready at all times. im also skeptical on how preserved iaido techniques are. ive observed some of the extended waza, and some i dont find very credible. there is also the fact that there are many sitting forms, however, samurai would only sit in doors, and when they entered a building, it was considered proper etiqutte to remove the long sword and only carry the short sword.

as for bleda, have you ever swung a real metal sword? its heavy. the quick snapping attacks of kendo wouldnt work. experienced kendo practitioners have said this themselves. kendo has become more of a sport, and kendo techniques are suitable to kendo, and they work in kendo. but do they work with real metal swords? this has been the whole point of this thread. and ive also realised something else. the techniques i learn and develop in bokken sparring work; in bokken sparring. this does not mean they will work with metal swords.

[ben]

The trouble with these forums is that in years to come, your own ignorance can come back to haunt you. I was reminded of this when doing a Google for "datotsu no kikai" and amongst the very few hits was own of my own posts from this forum. It made me cringe! Who was this know-it-all holding forth about something that was obviously still beyond him? Ugh!

I doubt that Xifoarhos will ever enter a dojo. I fear s/he has painted him/herself into a corner. It would take a mature person indeed to admit that their studies so far were only scratching the surface when some have knowledge of the bone-marrow, let alone to seek out and bow before a such a sensei and say "onegaishimasu."

After all isn't that what kendo is all about? Accepting that someone else knows more than you and without either grovelling or false humility (IOW without ego), asking them to show you?

b

[not-I]

The trouble with these forums is that in years to come, your own ignorance can come back to haunt you.
True, Ben, nice post. And sometimes its the same kind of hubris that comes back to haunt all of us...

ive beaten a few kendo practitioners, although i dont know theyre rank, so dont think that this is just little boys fantasising with swords.
i use my own stlye and win nearly every time. and there are not just a bunch of kiddies! (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2756).

There must be a glitch in the matrix. Anyway, argument is pointless here. I suggest we close this case and move on.

[Wout]

I've beaten a few kendo practitioners, although i dont know theyre rank, so dont think that this is just little boys fantasising with swords.

This makes me think about the ppl that claim they beat some karate- practicioner. I've heard a lot of claims in my life about that, but they never seem to know the names of the ppl they fought how tall or how old they were, but they knew the other dude was a karateka, (sometimes even a black belt, how they knew that I don't know) even once it was a kickboxer. Now I know a couple of martial artist who do unarmed fighting, and there is one thing I know about them, if they want, you wont be able to touch them.


Btw bokken sparring without restraints??? Have you ever broken you leg or kneecap, if there really was no restraint you would have broken it by know, also I think you could smash right through hockey gear with a bokken, at least hard enough to hurt you, or cause concusions, cuz a bokken isn't really flexible

[xifoarhos]

there are restraints in bokken fighting. full force is not allowed. and i have seen that i just scratched the surface of swordsmanship, because i know there is so much i dont know. i probably wont ever enter a kendo dojo, but not because i think i know better. right now im at the conclusion that you practiced kendo to learn kendo, same with bokken sparring. the only way to learn true swordsmanship is with a real sword.

[Bleda]

I practice iai jutsu, kendo, and naginata. I have used (and own) real swords, have you? Flicking motions will not cut, you need fluid smooth motion with proper edge alignment and technique to produce a solid cut with a sword. If you practice you don't need light flicking motions though, you can cut multiple times using momentum and fluidity to attack the target from multiple angles. Kendo teaches timing, speed, and instills the proper fighting spirit. Iai and kenjutsu teach the proper cuts and techniques needed for the battlefield and for duels. If you think you can cut with a real katana with no technique then you're in for alot of botched cuts and broken blades, it is all technique that gets you through a target, not strength.

Iai was NOT dishonorable, it was essential training for a samurai. You said a warrior should always be prepared, that is exactly what iai teaches, the techniques are responses to suprise attacks made on you. It is designed to kill/maim an attacker and to keep you alive. The sitting forms are designed to be used in doors where not alot of space was available, they can be (and are) performed with the sword next to you on the ground as would be customary and also in the obi. The techniques that i learn are over 400 years old, the school has documents and guides showing the techniques continuing back that far. We do not perform actions for the hell of it either and the feasability is usually due more to circumstance than anything, kata usually involve a whole fight between multiple opponents and as such they show moves for different circumstances, perhaps you should find out whats really going on.

It is obvious you have no knowledge of iai or kenjutsu, but rather opinions as to why your fake fantasy light-contact bokken sparring is more authentic. As to beating kendoka, i wouldn't be suprised its pretty easy to beat someone when you fight on your own terms and own rules taking away all of his advantages such as hitting with high velocity with armor and limited targets. Try fighting a kendoka in bogu by his rules and see how effective your bokken sparring is.

[Bleda]

the only way to learn true swordsmanship is with a real sword.
Hence why at higher levels in iai jutsu and ken jutsu you use a real sword to validate the techniques you learn.

[xifoarhos]

i didnt place any conditions when i fought the kendokas. i even used a shinai. and i did not say iaido was dishonorable. what i said was mayn samurai considered it dishonorbale because you shoudl give your opponent a chance. did you know that iaido was used mostly for attack? inferior swordsman supported it and said a warrior shoudl be ready at all times, and they could kil superior swordsmen. iaido was developed by a swordsman who used it in defense, but it became wideley used for attack. and if you read what i said closely, those who said a warrior should always be prepared, were those who used iaido to kill. i personally think it is dishonorable to draw and maim your adversary, rather than give him a chance and challenge him to a duel. what do you think?

[not-I]

did you know that iaido was used mostly for attack? inferior swordsman supported it and said a warrior shoudl be ready at all times, and they could kil superior swordsmen. iaido was developed by a swordsman who used it in defense, but it became wideley used for attack. [...] i personally think it is dishonorable to draw and maim your adversary, rather than give him a chance and challenge him to a duel.Xifoarhos, i'll grant you one thing: you sure are tenacious. However, you should get your history and terminology straight before pontificating on such subjects. You have it backwards: iai-jutsu or batto-jutsu, the combative art of drawing the sword was developed first and was part of the curricula of many ryu that existed prior to the Edo period, when Japan was still a quite dangerous place. Later during the peace of the Edo period, iai-jutsu died out and was gradually replaced by iaido (actually a relatively recent term), a purely defensive art aimed at meditative self-cultivation.

As far as honor goes, it's important to remember that bushido was originally just a bunch of rules for samurai to maintain their class status. For quite a while, it was not considered bad if a samurai cut down an unarmed peasant just becasue he felt some petty offence to his "honor." In wartime, the point was to kill your enemy and not waste time messing around with proper form. During the Edo period, bushido developed into more of an ethical system and dueling was outlawed anyway.

You seem to take the same approach towards books that you take towards your bokken "art". Coming up with your own interpretations of books like The Five Rings or Discourse on the Art of the Tengu is about as wise as learning JSA from videos. You may never set foot in a kenjutsu dojo, but at least do yourself a favor and read Donn F. Draeger's three-volume Martial Arts and Ways of Japan and/or Oscar Ratti/Adele Westbrook - Secrets of the Samurai and watch those Kurosawa movies everyone keeps recommending to you.

[Bleda]

i did not say iaido was dishonorable. what i said was mayn samurai considered it dishonorbale because you shoudl give your opponent a chance. did you know that iaido was used mostly for attack? inferior swordsman supported it and said a warrior shoudl be ready at all times, and they could kil superior swordsmen. iaido was developed by a swordsman who used it in defense, but it became wideley used for attack. and if you read what i said closely, those who said a warrior should always be prepared, were those who used iaido to kill. i personally think it is dishonorable to draw and maim your adversary, rather than give him a chance and challenge him to a duel. what do you think?
I would love to see how iai was used mostly for attack, especially since drawing cuts are terrible for producing deep fatal wounds and the distance, speed, and strength required for them to be fatal would put a bushi that had mastered that into a league of his own, definately not an inferior swordsman. You also seem to think that iai is just about drawing the sword quickly and making drawing cuts, thats incorrect, iai is counter attacks that often start in the saya as defense but not always. I would love to see where you found this information that iai JUTSU was dishonorable though and especially the part where subpar swordsmen used it.

http://www.driscollinstitute.com/Iaijutsu.html

read that to get a quick history of iaijutsu, particularly where the schools founder was named the sword with out equal and his style of iai unmatched. Yep so dishonorable that the shogun had to give praise to it. Seriously, LEARN about the style before you try to bash it. You obviously aren going on your own preconceptions about swordsmanship with out doing any kind of actual research.

As for the kendoka the weapon doesn't matter, its the speed that make a difference. With out armor you can't go all out in terms of speed or hitting power, he has to slow down to fight you and his strikes have to be like a sloth to not injure you.

[Wout]

i didnt place any conditions when i fought the kendokas. i even used a shinai.
yeah right, the kendoka was prolly scared of hurting you while you yelled point every time he touched your blad with his body. Maybe you didn't place any conditions on the kendoka, but I do think he put some restraints on himself. Otherwise your hand would in a lot of pain by now i think.

[hyuna]

i personally think it is dishonorable to draw and maim your adversary, rather than give him a chance and challenge him to a duel. what do you think?

If you think that the iaido kata do not give the adversary a chance, then I think you should observe the kata a few more times. Better still you might consider studying the kata and learning the bunkai behind them. You have some misconceptions about what is going on in the kata.

[xifoarhos]

what i said was iaido was first used offensivley. now what is studied are defensive techniques, even though at the time what im refering to is probably battojutsu. i believe the story was that it was started by a swordsman(i forget his name), who one day was walking in the night and sensed an attack. he turned and drew his sword and cut the attacked in half in one swing. from then on his school of swordsmanship was to kill in one swing. and fast drawing cuts may not kill instantly, but they will certainly maim so that the swordsman cant defend himself against the next swing which would be fatal. if you want to know where i read this about iaido, i read it in Secrets of the Samurai, in the section on kenjutsu. thats where it said that some samurai thought it dishonorable, while those who used it in that manner said a samurai should always be on his guard. and if anyone lives in the boston area, i am always up for a challenge(please dont take this as me being arrogant and thinking i can beat anyone who practices kendo. on teh contrary, i am always looking to test myself)

[Bleda]

All japanese swordsmanship is to put ultimate power behind your attack in such a sense that it will kill or mortally wound your oponent. The drawing techniques from iai are on the contrary almost purely defensive in nature being used as counters and defenses against an attacker or attackers. If you are on the attack starting with your sword in the sheath is for the foolish, you limit your options and you loose your element of suprise that could be had by utilizing waki effectively. The book classifies the attack properly putting it with kenjutsu which is NOT iaijutsu or battojutsu. One cut kills and offensive powerhouses are the trademarks of kenjutsu, not iai.

Also you just did double speak, you said first that samurai consider iai and batto as dishonorable styles, now you are saying that people who used dishonorable tactics are dishonorable and then blaming the style for how they used their weapons...

[xifoarhos]

there wer many samurai. why coudlnt some consider it dishonorable and some not? and tell me what you think. do you think it dishonorable to kill someone without warning? especially in a medieval japan setting?

[Bleda]

Do they deserve it or is it random? If they deserve it no, it was expected that if someone had reason to kill you they would kill you when they wanted to wherever whenever. Heck samurai would kill peasants for the slightest insults to preserve their honor and i highly doubt they said, okay peasant i'm going to kill you know so try to defend yourself! You lack understanding of medieval japan and have some romantic notion that everything was done in formal duels face to face.

Please go read books and learn about iai and batto, stop spouting off bull shit that you obviously have no clue as to whether its true or not and have no sources at all to back it up. Iai is a DEFENSIVE style, using it for offense is moronic at best since it has no advantages in that role. As i said before suprise comes better from hiding behind a corner, or using waki gamae or just a simple men cut that kills in one hit, lethality is extremely poor on drawing cuts, and danger is increased substantially by coming so close to your enemy. Until you can print the statement where a known authority clearly states that iaijutsu was considered a dishonorable style focused on attacking enemies with out warning or that the majority of samurai considered it dishonorable you should stop bad mouthing it.

there wer many samurai. why coudlnt some consider it dishonorable and some not? Because the style was an intrinsic training of all samurai, they all learned it to some degree or another, the techniques were designed with defense in mind and they all employed them, is jujitsu dishonorable? how about karate? no? Maybe just iai and batto then because they show how incredibly lacking your knowledge of japanese arts and the samurai really is.

[Marine_Boy]

Xi, are you a stupid troll?

You seem to acting like one.

There are always lots of good ideas around this forum. But I haven't come across ideas like yours since I last read the baffling / bad budo forums on ebudo.

Grow up. You are clearly a teenager with an over active mind.

[xifoarhos]

Secrets of the Samurai
by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook

pg. 276

please make sure to read it a few times before you post.
and what do you mean it has no advantages in offense? if you are walking down a street, and someone you want to kill is walking towards you, but they are unsuspecting, you can draw fast enough to cut them so they cant retaliate, and finish them off. and i dont have a romantic notion about duels. In ther very early days of Japan, duels were even held on the battlefield between samurai, where they woudl call each other out and fight one on one.

[not-I]

Secrets of the Samurai by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook, pg. 276
The initial movement or drawing of the sword became a major art in its own right (iaijutsu). [...] Particularly suited to an armed encounter in the course of daily life, as opposed to combat on the battlefield where weapons were already unsheathed, iaijutsu could be employed without warning against an unwary opponent or against one or more adversaries preparing to attack. [...] The use of iaijutsu in this context against an opponent who had not yet drawn his own weapon from its scabbard often lent a certain air of disrepute to the art, however. The adjective "treacherous" crops up frequently in many records, and, in numerous instances where iaijutsu was used (or rather, misused), this characterization would seem to have been justified. Many a warrior and scores of unsuspecting heimin (regardless of sex or age) fell beneath a sudden arc of steel slashing through the air either to take professional advantage of the possibility of tactical surprise when facing a potentially dangerous opponent -- or merely to test the edge of a katana on a human body, in what became known as "crossroad cutting," "practice murder," "practice killings," or "sword-testing murders." There were a number of Japanese students of bujutsu who maintained that the use of this particular subspecialization of swordsmanship against a warrior who had not yet drawn his own weapon was still a legitimate application of kenjutsu, since a warrior was expected to be ready to confront danger at any moment, especially in a world dominated (as was feudal Japan) by the professional fighter. Such a justification loses its force, however, when the victims were commoners (heimin) who were not professional fighters and, moreover, were actually forbidden by law to carry weapons. And it is admissible only with a certain reluctance, even in relation to the bushi themselves, when a warrior used the art to catch another unsuspecting warrior completely off guard, since their professional code of ethics called for at least a minimum of openess and sincerity in indicating one's intentions. (pp. 275-276)

Fair enough, except that you called it "iaido" (a serious misnomer); first said, "Iaido was developed by a swordsman who used it in defense," and then later engaged in double-speak by saying "What i said was iaido was first used offensivley;" failed to mention that it was the misuse (cutting down peasants, attacking unsuspecting people, etc.) that was criticized and not the technique itself; and completly neglected to read or paraphrase the paragraph that follows:

Iaijutsu seems to have been a perfectly justifiable (and often imperative) mode of swordplay, however, when used in almost simultaneous counterattack against an opponent who was obviously about to, or actually in the act of, unsheathing his sword with deadly intent. The most reputable masters of kenjutsu, in fact, trained their students to respond immediately and effectively to this relevant possibility. A swordsman proficient in iaijutsu had to be able to discern instantaneously the technique his opponent was about to employ, so that he might direct his almost simulateous counterattack in a direction his opponent's blade could not block while in flight. [...] (pp. 276-277)

You have already drawn legitimate suspicion by stating you are self-taught and generally ruling out the possibilty of seeking a teacher. And you encourage misunderstanding through sloppy reading and initially uncredited paraphrasing of texts that have their own moral bias as well (Ratti and Westbrook add some of their own romantic interpretation of bushido). If your reading skills were more developed and your diction less obtuse (e.g. explaining what you mean by terms like "offence" and "dishonorable"), you might draw less fire here (these are indispensible skills if you plan on going to college, btw), though you can be assured that your word as a self-taught samurai suffers a priori disrepute in a forum such as this. The great majority of us practice what we preach in a legitimate dojo through blood, sweat & tears. We talk shit too sometimes, but we have sensei to iron out the crap we might come up with in practice.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You don't seem to be stupid, although your stubbornness presses the limits. I implore you one last time, put it to good work, find a teacher and join a dojo, whether kendo, iaido or kenjutsu, and quit pretenting you're learning Japanese swordsmanship with your buddies in your backyard.

Sayónara.

[rainmaker]

I have asked my sensei about similar questions. "What is more practical if there is real sword shiai ? Kendo or Iaido ?" His answer is following.. I cannot say about real swordmanship unless I am really getting into....


http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26490#post26490 (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26490#post26490)


True swordsmanship...Hmm Difficult to define. True swordsmanship (I believe)comprises many different components, and each sword art, Kendo, Iaido, Batto, Kenjutsu, etc, posess only part of the "whole", and the last part I don't think we want to touch...Ill get to that at the bottom of the post.

The previous posts have some flaws, in that it is not nessecary to "Slice" when cutting with a Japanese blade, this is why the curvature is there. Only in some circumstances do you need to "Slice" or pull the blade. In Iaido, you better NOT hit someone!

Kendo deals with intent, use of distance, perception of openings, "Reading" your opponent and much more. The biggest thing to me that kendo deals with is the mental attitude while facing another person, which Iaido and Batto do not. Kendo does not deal with the finer points of using a sword which Iaido teaches, and it does not teach you how to cut.

Iaido teaches perfection of form and concentration in the face of a perceived opponent, proper sword handeling, how to turn a sword during use..kiriage to kesagiri, or tsubamagaeshi (sp?) concentration and balance among many other things. An Iaido practitioner is closer to cutting than a kendoka, but to assume that because someone can cut air, they can cut even a stationary target is flawed. Put a real sword in many Iaido practioners hands and they do strrrrange things. This is also not to say that there are not Iaido practioners out there who can cut the first time you put a real blade in their hands. on a continueum(ok sp again ?) Iaido ka are closer to cutting than kendoka. Iaido does not teach you how to use distance, the intent to strike a real person staring you down, or to cut a real person staring you down with a sword in their hands. It does not teach you intent in the face of a real person.

Batto, or cutting, teaches just that, how to cut a stationary or moving target, proper handeling of the blade, footwork, proper hasuji, and a lot of proper blade handeling....cant make the same mistakes you can in Iaido without feeling a bit-O- pain at the least, (Assuming use of an Iaito in Iai. as many people use shinken.)

Each art holds a certain portion of the truth, you could study all of them and still not be a real swordsman.

What is a "Real Swordsman?" someone that knows how to use a sword? someone that knows how to cut? someone that knows how to kantei a blade?
Lets say you know all of this.... In my mind, your not a real swordsman untill you have once faced another person who holds both a live blade and the intent to kill you in his heart and you have lived to tell the story. It is for this reason that I think looking for "Real" swordsmanship classes, or considering oneself a "Real swordsman" is unrealistic in todays age, unless you consider certain groups of the modern military.
Study your art, understand its advantages, benefits,and disadvantages and don't be deluded or disalusioned with it.

[xifoarhos]

i agree with that. i did not mean to imply iaido was dishonorable, for a style is really just a tool. i meant it was used dishonorably. and as for taking actual kendo classes, i was gona do that in college, but now im going to a college that dosnt offer kendo. and please dont discredit what my friends and I do. you really do learn something after getting hit hard a few times.

[Bleda]

There you go, now you made a true and legitimate statement about the samurai. If you would have said that at the beginning there would have been no problem.

While i won't say that your backyard style is complete crap since any type of fighting will atleast teach some timing and skills, but calling yourself a japanese swordsman because you use a katan is a misnomer. Unless you study a japanese style then you are just a swordsman, self taught and maybe pretty good, but not a japanese swordsman.

[Daniel]

Hi,

I read also the previous replies to your question and wanted to add my two cents. The modern equivalent of the sword duels in Japan are the street shootouts most law enforcement officers get involved in when deadly force becomes necessary.
The usual distance for these fights is about 4-8 feet (roughly the lenght or width of a car, and the the time is about 10 seconds.
It is nasty and deadly business, and I can -safely I believe- infer that the sword equivalent in Japan was just as nasty and deadly, and quick. (That made courtesy much more important, it could REALLY save your life)
And YET, the people in question in Japan had LEARNED their deadly force skills as part of a life-system, not bought them in a gun shop. Nowadays firearms are purchased and give the owner a very false sense of security (unless you practice, practice, practice,-and even then- you are still in terrible danger)
For the Samurai or the older swordsman in Japan, death was not as terrible as shame and "lack of form" so to speak. I am sure that a certain degree of deadly elegance was involved both for the winner and the loser. And a defeat and death worthy of a Haiku must not have been so bad for such men.

Am I far off target?

Daniel