Favourite waza

[xvikingx]

This one has been done to death in the kendo section however the question has never come up in the naginata section. Basically I am just baiting the very inactive naginata pond, let's see if anyone bites.

Well, mine used to be debana but that has been leading to chika-maai or unwanted tai-atari recently, so the flavour of the month is men-nuki waza.

[berghaan]

I guess same here on the men nuki waza.
Well actually...men just because I like the sound it makes *pok!*
:wink:

[Phil]

hello! nice topic!!!

for me it is cross sune ... even if i don t do it so much during shiai, i really like the fact that you finish the movement in front of your oponent, with the shoulders really low. It's a nice position and confortable.
it procure me also a great satisfaction and a strong feeling, like "i m powerfull" ^^
[and if you want to have a bigger probability to hit the sune ate, put one knee on the ground (it looks also better from the outside ^^) :wink: ]


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Phil

[Nagi David]

I love sune with ebu, it's just the fact that you deal with two part of your Naginata to strike. I must admit that "cross sune" is interesting but unfortunately it is not valid for shimpan anymore. Except if you prepare it like a furiage men, which makes it quite difficult to use in shiai.

[alepto]

Hmm I am with nagi_david on this one, ebu -> sune. After a failed strike with the habu against men ( or just a block of men ) going in with an ebu strike feels very balanced ( a bit hard to explain ...). Of course if you get the speed, posture etc even a litle wrong, you leave yourself open for an easy men shot.

[Jakob Ryngen]

I love sune with ebu, it's just the fact that you deal with two part of your Naginata to strike. I must admit that "cross sune" is interesting but unfortunately it is not valid for shimpan anymore. Except if you prepare it like a furiage men, which makes it quite difficult to use in shiai.
The reverse sune (aizigai???) is valid in shiai but I am told that no one (at least outside Japan) does it properly. As for myself, I am trying to incorporate the sune-strike seen in Seishi Iwakuzushi (spelling?). I can't say I am doing it right but the technique works better than I imagined.

Forgive my bad japanese but what is "chika-maai"? And "debana" and "nuki" - these words seem to be used in the same situations sometimes. Am I right when I say that "nuki" means to attack the attacker even faster and "debana" is to avoid the attack and then go in when the attacker is on the revese?

[Phil]

I must admit that "cross sune" is interesting but unfortunately it is not valid for shimpan anymore. Except if you prepare it like a furiage men, which makes it quite difficult to use in shiai.

The reverse sune (aizigai???) is valid in shiai but I am told that no one (at least outside Japan) does it properly.?

even if it was not valid you can do it-> it s my favorit waza . ^^
(i have a video of cross sune counted by shimpan)


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Phil

[Jakob Ryngen]

even (i have a video of cross sune counted by shimpan)
Who did it, where was it and who where shimpan?

[Phil]

waaaaw so agressiv...
i send you the video!

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Phil

[Jakob Ryngen]

Sorry, I was just curious... :ermm:

[xvikingx]

Ooo, lot's of fish in this pond... :)

I love sune with ebu,...

Oh yes, I will second that. Unfortunately that one is hard to score. I am not good at it but I throw it in my repetoire because it feels natural after fumikomi sune.

Am I right when I say that "nuki" means to attack the attacker even faster and "debana" is to avoid the attack and then go in when the attacker is on the revese?

Backwards... debana is when you move in and strike as soon as your opponent's kisaki moves. Chika-maai just means close maai.

[Nagi David]

I also have a few video where cross sune are counted but at the last European Championship Fukuda sensei told us it was not valid anymore. Jonathan did a few at the third european championship but the shimpan were not Japanese. Wataru Suzuki did a few one in 1995 World Championship, and you, Philibert, did one in Isshu jiai at the last world championship, but one of the shimpan was a kendo shimpan, and as far as I remember you get 2 flags on this one. Anyway, I agree with you it's a beautifull mouvement.

Jackob wasn't agressive at you, he was just asking a quick question. Relax man, we are all here because we love Naginata and let's forget about the past when we talk about it. Everybody's opinion is interesting...

To come back on ebu-sune Kevin Saxton did a beautifull one on Wataru Suzuki, in the team tournament of the 1995 world Championship.

[Phil]

Relax man, we are all here because we love Naginata and let's forget about the past when we talk about it. Everybody's opinion is interesting...


I don't know what you re talking about...
i have no problems with jakob, i just sent him a video. :ko:


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Phil

[kendophx]

This one has been done to death in the kendo section however the question has never come up in the naginata section. ...

And you couldn't leave it over there, could you?
Had to draaaaaaag it over here, otouto-san :devious: ?

I hate this question.
(These days (kendo no) tsuki - kote, is your answer, but I really do hate this question.)

The reason I hate this question is ultimately there is only one answer. Your favorite waza had better be what ever it takes to get you out of (or to triumph over) what ever situation you find yourself in at the moment. Anything else is pure vanity.

This lesson was so very firmly knocked into my head by Y_ _-sensei about 5 years ago. During our keiko, I tried out my favorite waza, kote-men-dou, and proceded to get the stuffing kicked out of me. This is not an unusual occurance but it came with such ferocity, I thought I must have done a really horrific waza to deserve it. So after the keiko, I asked sensei about it. Again, I was still thinking in technical terms - was the kote too close, did I slam the men instead of popping it, et cetera.

No the waza fine - for a beginner executing a kote-men-dou. What he objected to was the fact that the waza was so inappropriate for the opening available, it was obvious that I was doing kendo by myself. He raised the seme to such overwhelming levels to remind me to keiko with HIM.

Oh. OK.

But I thought that maintaining the flow of the waza would force him (i.e. him, the opponent, not him, the sensei.) to respond, giving me (or letting me keep) control of the match.

Well yeah. IF!!! the waza would have been appropriate for the opening presented. As it was, it was so obvious that I was going to do kote-men-dou come hell or high water, all he had to do was get into position and wait for me. Which he did, with devastating results. I barely had a grip on the shinai by the time he parried the dou cut.

Oh. OK.
So how to better read openings so I have a better feel for appropriate waza?

Sensei: practice! Practice!! PRACTICE!!!

Oh well.
End of story.
But, that is why I feel the way I do.

It may be that naginata is too different to kendo to compare, in this regard. The waza volleys (the number of hits a single waza actually contains) are usually not as long, I've noticed, in naginata shiai.

Of course, it may also be that not everyone has as much trouble knowing WHEN it is appropriate TO DO their favorite waza as I do :rolleyes: .

A question for another day that I have is:
Given the necessity to respond to any situation you might find yourself in, why the extreme lack (in my beginner's opinion) of left sided practice in atarashii naginata?

We do right sided uchikaeshi. We do right sided openings on shikaki-oji. We could just as easily change sides and do left sided uchikaeshi, for example. This is very different from koryu training, as an example, which frequently alternates right-left.

[kendophx]

... cross sune ... Fukuda sensei told us it was not valid anymore.

Gomen kudasai. Did Fukuda-sensei give an more detail as to why?

The reason I am asking: I saw the waza. It looked good, it sounded good, and it was faaaaaaaaaast! but, in my beginner's opinion, it was purely a construct of atarashii naginata.

i.e. It looked to me like the hands were too close together on the e-bu at the end of the waza to actually support the weight of a real naginata. The moment arm would wrench your back out.

Has anyone ever done a cross sune with an antique naginata or a historical replica that was accurately weighted? If so, what was your experience of it? {If you had to rush your opponent to the hospital for re-attachment surgery :dead: , you don't have to tell us about that part :rolleyes: .}

As to whether this criteria (doable with a real naginata) should be the be all and end all for allowable points is a topic for somebody braver than me.

[xvikingx]

...Anything else is pure vanity.
When I said favourite waza, I didn't mean your best "show off" move. I meant something that works well for you, or feels good, or like it because you just learned it.

A question for another day that I have is:
Given the necessity to respond to any situation you might find yourself in, why the extreme lack (in my beginner's opinion) of left sided practice in atarashii naginata?

We do right sided uchikaeshi. We do right sided openings on shikaki-oji. We could just as easily change sides and do left sided uchikaeshi, for example. This is very different from koryu training, as an example, which frequently alternates right-left.
I will take a guess at this: koryu is just kata now but the purpose was to train you for battle, meaning your life depends on you being ready for anything, which is probably why one's kamae changes from left to right so often. However atarashi naginata is a sport. [I will probably get flamed for this but if you play for points it's a sport.] Seeing as most of the world's population is right handed, I think the idea is to have a strong point grabber from a comfortable kamae.
Outside of Japan people like to strike from waki or do yaichigae-sune (SP?) but in Japan most will work on (for example) just soku men uchi from migi-chuudan. This way they have strong, simple attack for getting ippon.
I think the strongest male player in Japan right now is Kousuke Tanaka. When I watched him in shiai all he did (not literally EVERY move he did) was soku-men and tsuki from migi chuudan, and that was all he needed. Those two attacks were fast, clean, and accurate from a distance. I am sure he has pleanty of goodies he can do from hidare chuudan but what's the point?

[xvikingx]

Phil,

What happened to your website?

[Jakob Ryngen]

I asume that Denkibo Katsuhide (founder of Tendo Ryu) know far more about duels and naginatajutsu than any now living person. We are not qualified to critizise his idea of mastering every technique on both sides.

I agree with the former poster that naginata is a sport and thus simplified. Mastering all techniques on both sides might not be that necessary. I certainly respect those who try to do so as I feel that it is in the line with our heritage and one futher aspect of naginata. I think we loose something if we really just look at what works in shiai for the moment - naginata should be more than that! And... after a soku-sune we naturally find ourselves in a reverse chudan. Why not master that side as well?

As for "show off"-moves I think that japanese players did a lot of those during the 1st world championships. Things might have changed, certainly among the top players, but I recall Fukuda-sensei saying that she still had those "problems" with male japanese naginataka.

[xvikingx]

We are not qualified to critizise his idea of mastering every technique on both sides.
.... I think we loose something if we really just look at what works in shiai for the moment - naginata should be more than that!

I think you've misunderstood, I wasn't criticizing koryu or working on hidari-chuudan. I certainly don't practice naginata as a competitive sport, however in Japan that is how it is treated, when it comes to shiai. So that is where I formed my opinion about what kendophx had asked.
That is not to say that the Japanese don't put emphasis on being strong in all aspects of naginata, it's just that when it comes to shiai getting the point seems comes before everything else.

[kendophx]

When I said favourite waza, I didn't mean your best "show off" move. ....

Gomen Kudasai.

I meant 'vanity' in the philosophical sense: "vanity of vanities; all is vanity" NOT in a personal "you're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" kind of way.

If anyone who offered their favorite waza was hurt by my choice of words, I offer an unconditional apology.

If anyone was put off from sharing their favorite waza by my words, I would ask them to please reconsider.

[kendophx]

... meaning your life depends on you being ready for anything, ... However atarashi naginata is a sport. ...

Sport or budo is irrelevant to me, for the purposes of this discussion.
{Other discussions, "INCOMING!" ... but this discussion, "eh."}

For a weaker player, such as myself, how do I prolong the match so I can try to earn a point, without being prepared for anything?

1: A stronger player can probably count on a single decisive waza. I am counting on a combining a not-so-strong waza with you making a mistake (you blinked, you stumbled, you got a little too close.) Those opportunities do not last long. I have to go for it NOW no matter what my kamae.

2: If all I can do is soku-something, change back to migi chuudan, I add predictably to my list of weaknesses. All you have to do is wait for me to end in hidari and :ko: .

While doing kendo, for example, yes I have a fixed grip, left hand always power hand, right hand always shaping hand - but, I had better be able to hit men from any of the 8 directions.

I believe I have that same responsibility as a naginata-no-hito, just the power hand changes along with the direction.

But for some reason, in the course of a typical 1.5 ~ 2 hour practice, we stop this line of thinking after we finish our happo-buri.

I would like to do more left-sided practice; to prepare myself for what might happen to me is shiai. However, with no one else apparently doing it, maybe others have tried it; and, found it to be a dead end road -- one that I would be wiser not to waste my time on.

Or, as you pointed out, I might be better served by developing one intensely strong waza and learning to apply it appropriately.

[xvikingx]

No, no, no.. wasn't offended. I think I was unclear as to what you meant by "everything else is vanity".

I didn't mean just two or three strong waza is all you need and the rest can bugger off. I meant...
...nevermind, I will never explain myself properly. I was just trying to get people talking about naginata. Just forget it.