Disarming techniques

[ECL]

Hi all. Being a newbie to kendo (9 months), I'm wondering if there are any waza dedicated to disarming the opponents shinai? Preferably from chudan no kamae.
Sorry if this has been discussed to death, I couldn't find anything when I did a quick search. I'd appreciate detailed examples and explanations if you guys could ofer them.

[R A Sosnowski]

Hi all. Being a newbie to kendo (9 months), I'm wondering if there are any waza dedicated to disarming the opponents shinai? Preferably from chudan no kamae.
Sorry if this has been discussed to death, I couldn't find anything when I did a quick search. I'd appreciate detailed examples and explanations if you guys could ofer them.

My understanding is that such waza were eliminated from Kendo in the post-WWII reformulation of Kendo.

Apparently, pre-war Kendo is still practiced within some Koryu Dojo such as Hokushin Itto Ryu. However, do not expect to see these waza in any Kendo Shiai; these formerly acceptable waza are now considered fouls in the rules of post-war Kendo.

HTH,

[Kendoka]

Hi all. Being a newbie to kendo (9 months), I'm wondering if there are any waza dedicated to disarming the opponents shinai? Preferably from chudan no kamae.
Sorry if this has been discussed to death, I couldn't find anything when I did a quick search. I'd appreciate detailed examples and explanations if you guys could ofer them.

Aikido, wing chun etc all have disarming techniques that can be used when in close to your armed opponent.

In kendo, from chudan you could try uchi otoshi ie., cut down on to the shinai to knock it out of the opponents hands.

Richard

[samurai999]

I heard from my sensei that in old school kendo (pre-WWII) that getting your men knocked off your head was a penalty point for you! Also, from what I heard, there were takedowns as well before that was outlawed. Not sure about the accuracy of my statements tho.

In terms of disarming an opponent, you could do that resulting in a hansoku for your opponent. There is one where you do a loop-da-loop with the shinai and "twirl" your opponents shinai out of their hands if they have a weak kamae. This is the best I can explain it. You'll need some visuals on this one.

I have caught people doing tsuki and missing. One time, his shinai got stuck to my armpit, I caught it, got my shinai under it and flung it across the dojo. :D However, i have not heard any specific names for these "techniques".

Tim

[ECL]

Wow, I had no idea that would be a foul. I guess you learn something everyday after all.
If you do an uchi or harai technique and knock the shinai out of the opponents hands in shiai is that still a foul? For example if you were to do harai men and knocked the shinai out of the opponents hand and then hit their men.

[samurai999]

Wow, I had no idea that would be a foul. I guess you learn something everyday after all.
If you do an uchi or harai technique and knock the shinai out of the opponents hands in shiai is that still a foul? For example if you were to do harai men and knocked the shinai out of the opponents hand and then hit their men.

Any time you or your opponent drops their shinai, it is a hansoku for the person who drops their shinai.

In the example you give, If I read you correctly on your waza, there is a chance for you to get a men if you hit it quickly enough. Basically, you knock your opponents shinai down and in addition, you get the "continuation" which is the men.

It is sorta analogous to getting a continuation call in bball where the guy commits a touch foul and the person who gets fouled scores a bucket.

Tim

[Hai_hai]

Hi all. Being a newbie to kendo (9 months), I'm wondering if there are any waza dedicated to disarming the opponents shinai?...
Some wine, soft music, candle-lit atmosphere, snuggling.

[Ishii]

Try something like this:
http://www.e-budo.com/pics/kendo.wmv
Good luck :D

[Old Warrior]

We practice the one in the video on a regular basis (last night - as a matter of fact).

[Neil Gendzwill]

My understanding is that such waza were eliminated from Kendo in the post-WWII reformulation of Kendo.

Apparently, pre-war Kendo is still practiced within some Koryu Dojo such as Hokushin Itto Ryu. However, do not expect to see these waza in any Kendo Shiai; these formerly acceptable waza are now considered fouls in the rules of post-war Kendo.

There is nothing in the rules against disarming techniques, quite the opposite in fact. If your opponent drops his shinai, you get a free shot at him. If your attack is unsuccessful, your opponent gets the penalty.

There is one restriction - you must use the blade portion of your shinai for any such action. You can't, for example, slip your left hand up the tsuka while in tsuba-zeriai and use the butt end to strip the shinai from your opponent's hands.

[Kendoka]

I heard from my sensei that in old school kendo (pre-WWII) that getting your men knocked off your head was a penalty point for you! Also, from what I heard, there were takedowns as well before that was outlawed. Not sure about the accuracy of my statements tho.


Still is the case in some dojos, when the shinais have been lost, the way to then win is to remove your opponents men, if you can. Usually the oppoonents end up wrestling on the floor. Ugly.

I was footswept by an unnamed sensei (in fun) but it showed me how effective it could be.
Techniques such as that now belong in the unarmed fighting area, something like aikido, I guess as kendo is the "way of the sword".


In terms of disarming an opponent, you could do that resulting in a hansoku for your opponent. There is one where you do a loop-da-loop with the shinai and "twirl" your opponents shinai out of their hands if they have a weak kamae. This is the best I can explain it. You'll need some visuals on this one.


That waza is called maki otoshi and is quite effective, it can send the shinai flying !!

Richard

[Yann]

I definitely love that disarming video...:smiley:

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Wow, I had no idea that would be a foul.
The way this was explained to me is that Kendo developed out of training techniques for situations where the loser died, so the person who would be dead gets a penalty. If you knock the sword out of your oppenents hands in a duel, they'll get a "penalty" alright. Same for pushing your opponent out-of-bounds, if you push somebody over something that trips them on a battle field, nothing bad happens to you, they're the one that loses a body part.

[R A Sosnowski]

There is nothing in the rules against disarming techniques, quite the opposite in fact. If your opponent drops his shinai, you get a free shot at him. If your attack is unsuccessful, your opponent gets the penalty.

There is one restriction - you must use the blade portion of your shinai for any such action. You can't, for example, slip your left hand up the tsuka while in tsuba-zeriai and use the butt end to strip the shinai from your opponent's hands.

Thank you for clarifying that point, Neil. I have checked my reference, and discovered that I had misremembered the items.

[Caleb]

Just recently our dojo had the privilage to host a yodan sensei for a weekend, and he taught the whole dojo alot of tsuba zarai waza. One of them was to cut small hiki men, then bash the opponents shinai, then by that time, your at a beutiful distance for a nice shomen.

It happens like kote men- all consecutive, and each strike (ie. small hiki men, smashing of the opponents shinai and the shomen) all have a step. He also was demonstrating how tenuchi applied to blocks and such, and it works fabulously against those cocky beginers who like to push in tsuba zarai

[mystic_kendoka]

yodan sensei

u mean yondan sensei... if u'd missed out another n, it wlda looked really weird..

[Michael_St_A]

You can aim to disarm your opponent in the ways explained above but be aware that you are only allowed to try and score while their shinai is in the air. Once the lost shinai has hit the floor the fight will be stopped and the kendoka who lost their shinai will get hansoku (a penalty).

If you lose your shinai in a fight you can simple bearhug your opponent until the shinai has hit the ground. This will still be one hansoku only and prevents them from scoring ippon.

There is no need to wrestle them although you sometimes see these remenants of pre-war kendo in competition. (And fun they are to watch.)

Whether you actually WANT to disarm your opponent is a totally different question.

Maki waza (twirling around opponent's shinai and sending it off to fly) is not all that easy and looks absolutely ridiculous if you get it wrong. Use it once successfully and everybody will think it was great. Use it twice and you will be regarded as a f*cking poseur.

Wrestling the opponent's shinai in tsuba zeriai --- I find that a bit brutish as you are not supposed to hang around that close anyway. You never see very senior kendoka push and ki-ai for long periods. Their tsuba zeriai is played at a distance (tsuba pressing tsuba, kensen over opponent's left shoulder).

;-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can aim to disarm your opponent in the ways explained above but be aware that you are only allowed to try and score while their shinai is in the air. Once the lost shinai has hit the floor the fight will be stopped and the kendoka who lost their shinai will get hansoku (a penalty).
There's no such rule. You have the chance to score until shushin calls yame.

[JByrd]

If you lose your shinai in a fight you can simple bearhug your opponent until the shinai has hit the ground. This will still be one hansoku only and prevents them from scoring ippon.

That's OK for use against one's dojo mates, I wouldn't use it in tournament matchplay though.

Maki waza (twirling around opponent's shinai and sending it off to fly) is not all that easy and looks absolutely ridiculous if you get it wrong. Use it once successfully and everybody will think it was great. Use it twice and you will be regarded as a f*cking poseur.

I'm not sure why that would be the case. If you can make it work twice, why would anyone think of you as a poseur? I would imagine they'd think of you as someone with a very effective technique to beware of.

Also, I have found that maki waza does not have to work perfectly to create an opportunity for ippon. Even if your shinai disengages with your opponent's shinai part of the way around, you can still score if you've managed to take them off center.

One other interesting thing: The best way I have found to counter maki waza is to go in the same direction they are going, beat them around the circle, and hit men. It works amazingly well, check it out. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you lose your shinai in a fight you can simple bearhug your opponent until the shinai has hit the ground. This will still be one hansoku only and prevents them from scoring ippon.That's OK for use against one's dojo mates, I wouldn't use it in tournament matchplay though.
Why would you bother doing that in the dojo? That's strictly a tournament ploy, it's been recommended to me by a number of sensei for that situation, and I've seen it put into action more than once. Technically you could get two hansoku, practically they'll just give you the one you were going to get anyways and you nullify the potential point.

[Paburo]

to disarm a kenshi with a poor grip i think strong (kiri)otoshi works much better than maki. i often disarm newbies at my dojo with a poor grip after hiki-dou this way :D

and the bearhug waza is kinda funny looking and un-kendoish in my opinion. i mean, kendo is the way of the sword... if you lose it, get it back, dont clutch to random people!

so far i havent lost my shinai in shiai but i think i'd strive to pick it up as fast as i can RATHER than bearhugging my opponent (ok, if shes a girl i'd give it a go :D :D)

[DCPan]

Technically you could get two hansoku, practically they'll just give you the one you were going to get anyways and you nullify the potential point.

Are you sure? I thought you can only call one hansoku at a time?

Otherwise, if someone goes out of bounds because they are knocked over and drop their shinai...that's one point???

[Michael_St_A]

There's no such rule. You have the chance to score until shushin calls yame.

Well, they should call 'yame' once the shinai hits the floor.

This happened to me in a tournament (I was the one being disarmed) and that - at least - was the explanantion given.

I might be wrong but then the refs were wrong, too.

[DCPan]

BTW, if you bearhug someone, be ready for what follows....

I was dropped unceremoniously on the floor after my attempted bearhug.... :wink: If you want to get physical, they just might give it right back to you.

FWIW.

[DCPan]

Well, they should call 'yame' once the shinai hits the floor.

I was told to treat it fairly similarly to striking someone when they are down...once you miss the window of opportunity as you initially disarmed the guy, they will call yame...

I still remember that footage of 8th WKC...one team did an excellent maki-o-toshi hiki-men on a member of Team Taiwan...unfortunately, the guy didn't get the hiki-men...only the hansoku was called.

[Michael_St_A]

I'm not sure why that would be the case. If you can make it work twice, why would anyone think of you as a poseur? I would imagine they'd think of you as someone with a very effective technique to beware of.


I just voiced my opinion. Maki waza in order to disarm the opponent seems kind of flouncy to me, technical excellence for its own sake.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Are you sure? I thought you can only call one hansoku at a time?

Otherwise, if someone goes out of bounds because they are knocked over and drop their shinai...that's one point???No, it's just one hansoku. Marsten-sensei (forget which one) explained that the last time we discussed this issue. I think it's one of those unwritten rules, or at least I don't recall it being laid out in the rules. The rules just say what constitutes hansoku.
Well, they should call 'yame' once the shinai hits the floor.That might be the rule of thumb those refs had been given, but it isn't in the rules. The usual interpretation when a player falls or loses his shinai is that the other player must take immediate advantage of the situation, or yame is called. How long he has depends on the ref and the situation. The actual rule is:
h. The Chief Referee shall, in the following cases, stop the match if a contestant does not give DATOTSU immediately and bring both players to center court to resume the bout:
1. When a player falls on the court.
2. When a player lets go of their SHINAI.

[hitokiri_kage]

I definitely love that disarming video...:smiley:

yeah, that video was pretty funny. i would have loved to have seen that guy's face after he lost his shinai.

[Michael_St_A]

Thanks, Neil, for that clarification.


:-)

[Light Samurai]

If they allowed it, i'd disarm him using a shiho nage, drop my own shinai, dodge his attack, and then apply the shihonage, the guy goes down to the floorm,, i have his shnai, the strike doh, men, or if he raises his arms, kote. But on wooden floors, aiki-ken disarms probalby aren't to friendly.

Would that be allowed in pre WW2 kendo? I heartd they use dhip throws and stuff, so I assume shihonage would be okay.
(note; Shihonage is a Aikido attack, probalby derived from Daito-ryu Aiki-Jutsu, and if Daito-ryu is pre WW2, it might have been used in kendo, or could of been allowed.) I'm basically listing my dream. Aikido meets kendo.

[streetcleaner]

If they allowed it, i'd disarm him using a shiho nage, drop my own shinai, dodge his attack, and then apply the shihonage, the guy goes down to the floorm,, i have his shnai, the strike doh, men, or if he raises his arms, kote. But on wooden floors, aiki-ken disarms probalby aren't to friendly.

Would that be allowed in pre WW2 kendo? I heartd they use dhip throws and stuff, so I assume shihonage would be okay.
(note; Shihonage is a Aikido attack, probalby derived from Daito-ryu Aiki-Jutsu, and if Daito-ryu is pre WW2, it might have been used in kendo, or could of been allowed.) I'm basically listing my dream. Aikido meets kendo.

thats very strange... and very strange when i'm reading about taking off the opponent men in prewar kendo.
can anybody tell me why someone wants to do such a technique with disarmed opponent rather then killing you opponent? to risk you own life? in case of kendo hit the correct strike

[Sa Mu]

Striking your opponents shinai downwards on the balance point (usually where the bulge is) works a treat. Seen and done it many times. Of course this should be done as an attempt to hit your opponent i.e hit the shinai then hit your opponent. Takes a bit of practice but is really good for producing a shocked look on your opponents/partners face!

[Michael_St_A]

That is uchi-o-toshi and works nicely in the fashion of keiko-ho:

Motodachi strikes do.

Kakari-te steps slightly sideways and strikes uchi o toshi followed by men.

[Sa Mu]

yup, that's the dude.

[JByrd]

Why would you bother doing that in the dojo? That's strictly a tournament ploy, it's been recommended to me by a number of sensei for that situation, and I've seen it put into action more than once.

In dojo keiko, there is nobody to stop the match. If you try to run away or retrieve your shinai, they can chase you around the dojo and you'll look foolish. Better to force a stalemate by tying them up in a bear hug.

In a tournament, one only needs to avoid being hit for a second or two until the referee stops it. Also, one often does not know one's tournament opponents well enough to hug them. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

In dojo keiko, there is nobody to stop the match. If you try to run away or retrieve your shinai, they can chase you around the dojo and you'll look foolish. Better to force a stalemate by tying them up in a bear hug.

If you drop your shinai in dojo keiko, normally you just stop. I guess if you're with the sort of person who screws with you by kicking your shinai away and chasing you around, you could hug them (or body check them - I've seen that happen). But normally, you just acknowledge that you've been beaten (by the fact that you lost your weapon), pick up the shinai and start again.

[Lloromannic]

If you drop your shinai in dojo keiko, normally you just stop. I guess if you're with the sort of person who screws with you by kicking your shinai away and chasing you around, you could hug them (or body check them - I've seen that happen). But normally, you just acknowledge that you've been beaten (by the fact that you lost your weapon), pick up the shinai and start again.

That's what we do. Sometimes if the teacher knock the shinai out of your hands you will get a Men strike but no more. He (and me too) thinks that there is really no reason to keep attacking when you have already beat the other. Mind you though, if I drop my shinai and you start attacking and chasing me around I will "hug" you.

[Anjin-san]

I've seen this technique done in large sports halls before where the shinai arched across the dojo and landed in a 7th dans jigeiko...

[Lloromannic]

Well, I asked sensei about it and he showed me how to do it and told me to try and use it in jigeiko with those I could trust (eg, not visiting sensei and beginners). I got it to work twice. First (against my very annoyed younger brother) I sent it up and nearly broke a lamp :ko: . Then against someone else I did it again only this time it went to one side. I must say that after doing it correctly one feels he is the bee's knees.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

I've seen this technique done in large sports halls before where the shinai arched across the dojo and landed in a 7th dans jigeiko...
Earlier in this thread there's a link to a video of somebody sending their opponent's shinai probably 10 meters in the air during a match. They don't go for the attack there, though maybe they should have as there is a delay between the shinai flying off and the shimpan in the background raising his flags