sempai/kohai abuse

[Hai_hai]

Have you aver seen a sempai give a cheap shot to a kohai who was being lazy during practice?
I did. Without going into too much detail, the kohai (who happened to be somewhat of a rich-boy show-off) was moving slow after men uchi. The sempai did something which I and someone else caught. Anyway, when it was my turn to pair up with him, I always went as fast as possible by him after men uchi in order to avoid the cheap shot.

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=Hai_hai]Have you aver seen a sempai give a cheap shot to a kohai who was being lazy during practice?

Now is there anything wrong with your senpai putting a little fire under your butt to work harder? Now I understand you don't want to hit the kohai in the back of his head but if he is pushing him along is that abuse?

[litige]

Anyway, when it was my turn to pair up with him, I always went as fast as possible by him after men uchi in order to avoid the cheap shot.

Well, at least it worked on you!

[Neil Gendzwill]

What do you mean by "cheap shot"? I'll wack them on the men from behind if they're moving slow, or shove them through by the small of their back.

[chromeburn]

IMO, if you're not pushing yourself in practice, someone should push you. It's indicative of your dedication. But seriously, if I'm at the dojo and not putting forth 100% then I'd almost be unhappy if my sempai DIDN'T give me a little smack to wake me up.

Practice should be hard, and you should be tired and maybe moving a bit slower at the end of practice than you were at the beginning but... unless the sempai went Karate Kid ("SWEEP THE LEG") on the kohai... it's no big thing.

[Hai_hai]

What do you mean by "cheap shot"? I'll wack them on the men from behind if they're moving slow, or shove them through by the small of their back.
Whipped his butt with the shinai. I, fortunately, got the slight push on the back.

[John W]

"cheap shot".......... I would call it encouragement. :rolleyes:

[DCPan]

Whipped his butt with the shinai. I, fortunately, got the slight push on the back.

Was this ji-geiko or kakari-geiko or uchikomi practice?

I do the small-of-the-back push if it is uchikomi/kakari-geiko. Honestly, perhaps I need a bit of push myself... :D

If it is ji-geiko, sounds to me like a great opportunity to practice mawashi-bana (I hope I got the grammar correct) waza :D

i.e. time your hit so it lands as they turn around to face you....

So, hai hai, are you really in Japan now? Or do you just like the flag?

[Hai_hai]

uchikomi. The sempai just turned and bitch slapped his rear thighs with the shinai. The kohai was moving slow though.

No, I am not in Tokyo nor Japan. It just goes with my avatar. I need to be a show-off.

[DCPan]

uchikomi. The sempai just turned and bitch slapped his rear thighs with the shinai. The kohai was moving slow though.


Well, weren't there moments when you are motodachi and... :D I will NOT say there weren't moments when I was tempted to do the same...



No, I am not in Tokyo nor Japan. It just goes with my avatar. I need to be a show-off.

I toyed with the idea of sporting a Taiwanese flag for a moment...but :D

[m_french]

IMO, if you're not pushing yourself in practice, someone should push you. It's indicative of your dedication. But seriously, if I'm at the dojo and not putting forth 100% then I'd almost be unhappy if my sempai DIDN'T give me a little smack to wake me up.


Is that like permission? you know I'm listening here!

[Shazzanzzz]

What's the big deal, my sensei hits me on my foot when i'm not going fast enough. I've been pushed in the back, too. Never on the ass though.

[not-I]

Whipped his butt with the shinai. I, fortunately, got the slight push on the back.With our sensei, rear men-whacking, back-pushing, and butt-whipping are all common moves in his repertoire of motivational "move along lil' doggies" techniques. I received a little backside slap toward the end of ji-geiko with him last night, in fact.

He also sometimes does the shinai flight-test-smack-launch, the tsuki-to-the-wall pin-up, the dojo-ejection escort or the taiatari knock-down followed by men removal, all dependent on what the kohai happens to be doing wrong. No one gets too worked up about any of this (it's hard to be offended when you're exhausted and he's grinning like a madman), they just try their best not to let it happen again - which is the point.

As to your sempai, i suppose it depends on just how senior he is. Some of these "techniques" are best left to the sensei and his senior assistants to use at their discretion. If a mere shodan or nidan started dishing out spankings instead of the occassional helpful push to beginners, i'd say he was out of line.

[moocow65]

I personally believe the idea of the senpai being entitled to abuse the kohai is a bunch of crap. It's probably the American blood in me that makes me think that way, but I don't see why senpai/sensei have to hit people in the back, leg, etc. If you want to half-ass in a drill, I'll make you do kiri-kaishi across the whole dojo, and I'll be your motodachi making sure you do it across the entire dojo. This is a more productive way of disciplining. How the hell does it help your kendo if you get smacked in the back of the head? For those of you who think it does help your kendo, let me get a shinai and whack your head ten times and let's see if you're debana kote improves. Does this abuse make you tougher? I don't think so. I think it just develops fear, anger, and ultimately hatred towards the senpai. I see these acts as plain old laziness. The senpai/sensei are too lazy to stop and show you how to do it the right way, so they just hit you instead. Either they're lazy or they just don't care about you. I don't need any of these arrogrant idiots in my dojo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, but there's a difference between a smack on the back of the head, and a tap on the top of the head from behind indicating the guy didn't get through quick enough. Similarly there's a difference between a smack on the butt or legs and a shove encouraging quicker movement. In one case it's punishment, in the other it's showing correct technique.

[hobbit]

Sorry Moocow - afraid I also fall with the " If I'm not doing it right I deserve a push" group - I've been pushed in the back, tsuki'd against a wall etc, by my old school sensei ( a godan ), and I would never dream of complaining, just try even harder to get it right next time.

[DCPan]

I personally believe the idea of the senpai being entitled to abuse the kohai is a bunch of crap.

I agree...and Kokushi-Kan payed the ultimate price for senpai-hazing. :D

However, in training, there's a fine line between being demanding and being abusive though.

What appears to be abusive training to some may not appear abusive for others.

For example, my primary goal is I don't want to get hurt. However, there are others who are willing to push themselves to the edge of almost popping their achilles tendon if it means a shot at the national team.

I don't think there is ultimately a problem, unless the invidivuals involved don't see eye to eye on the level of severity of the training.

[moetl]

hi everyone,
i think it strongly depends on how the "reminder" was performed. i believe it's pretty much okay, if the reminder was carrried out in a "friendly" way and the sensei just means well with you.
however, only if there would be real aggression behind it (which i doubt a responsible teacher would do) one can speak of "abuse" - a quite strong word IMO

BTW not-i are you reffering to kamemoto-sensei? a member of our club once got tsukied to the wall by him - he was quite shocked afterwards but didn't resent that ;). i really like how he is talking to the student during ji-geiko :)

[not-I]

[...] I think it just develops fear, anger, and ultimately hatred towards the senpai. I see these acts as plain old laziness. The senpai/sensei are too lazy to stop and show you how to do it the right way, so they just hit you instead. Either they're lazy or they just don't care about you. I don't need any of these arrogrant idiots in my dojo.
I respect your opinion, but agree with the others that the sensei/student relationship is a contextual and consentual one. There is no "abuse" as long as everyone knows what's expected and where the limits are ("If you can't stand the heat...") Fear, anger, and hate may be your reactions, but in ji-geiko with sensei, i think it's time to leave pride behind, regardless of how "tough" or "nice" s/he might seem. Personally, i often find a metaphorical kick in the ass a good deal more effective than "considerate" chit-chat. (And, like Neil said, it's a tap to the top of the men, not a whack to the back of the head).

However, you may not agree with them, but i would guard myself against indirectly referring to Kamemoto sensei, a rokudan, or others that utilize similar old-school motivational methods, as "lazy, arrogant, idiots."

[not-I]

BTW not-i are you reffering to kamemoto-sensei? a member of our club once got tsukied to the wall by him - he was quite shocked afterwards but didn't resent that ;). i really like how he is talking to the student during ji-geiko :)
Yes (see above). In our club, no one has ever had the feeling of "being abused" by him. No matter how tough the ji-geiko is, it always seems like both he and the student are having a hell of a lot of fun doing it. I know that's certainly my experience.

[chromeburn]

Is that like permission? you know I'm listening here!hahaha... yah, that's permission.
just don't sweep the leg!

[dorkusxmaximus]

honestly, that smack on the back of the head doesn't do much for me at all. I just shrug it off and go at my own pace, but it's not like I didnt care before. After a while, I just felt whatever about it. Most of them will just give up in the end anyway.

[Hai_hai]

...How the hell does it help your kendo if you get smacked in the back of the head? For those of you who think it does help your kendo, let me get a shinai and whack your head ten times and let's see if you're debana kote improves. Does this abuse make you tougher? I don't think so. I think it just develops fear, anger, and ultimately hatred towards the senpai. I see these acts as plain old laziness. The senpai/sensei are too lazy to stop and show you how to do it the right way, so they just hit you instead. Either they're lazy or they just don't care about you. I don't need any of these arrogrant idiots in my dojo.
Well, it was a basic men-uchi. Nothing wrong with his technique. The whack was kind of a punishment for moving slow after the cut. This senpai is actually san dan and is nice enough to stop and tell you what is wrong.

[Kendo-Militia]

I personally believe the idea of the senpai being entitled to abuse the kohai is a bunch of crap. It's probably the American blood in me that makes me think that way, but I don't see why senpai/sensei have to hit people in the back, leg, etc. If you want to half-ass in a drill, I'll make you do kiri-kaishi across the whole dojo, and I'll be your motodachi making sure you do it across the entire dojo. This is a more productive way of disciplining. How the hell does it help your kendo if you get smacked in the back of the head? For those of you who think it does help your kendo, let me get a shinai and whack your head ten times and let's see if you're debana kote improves. Does this abuse make you tougher? I don't think so. I think it just develops fear, anger, and ultimately hatred towards the senpai. I see these acts as plain old laziness. The senpai/sensei are too lazy to stop and show you how to do it the right way, so they just hit you instead. Either they're lazy or they just don't care about you. I don't need any of these arrogrant idiots in my dojo.

There are sempais and senseis out there that just plain a$$holes. Yes I agree a senpai should teach the kohai or show him what he is doing wrong. For some students even after you show him or tell them what they are doing wrong, they still move slow. At this point is it abuse if you push the student's small of the back to make him move faster? Smacking him on the back of their heads for this in my opinion would be wrong.

Let me ask you this if a senpai threw tsuki after tsuki at a kohai is this abusive? Depending on the situation it wouldn't be. When I was in Japan, a sensei notice I was afraid when someone through tsuki at me. So for about 5minutes per day for 1 week, he had hit men. As I hit Men my sensei would throw tsuki at me. Most of them missing and hitting me in the chest, and sides of my neck. By the 3rd day, my chest was beyond bruised and my neck were raw and bleeding. In some ways this was abuse. Did this help my Kendo? Yes.

Bottom line we are going to run across jerks with low self esteem that need to prove they are better than another by use of force. Every sensei that I felt abused me are did something wrong to me as a child, I had them on a mental list and 1 by 1 when i grew up, I punished them.

I even had the chance to play one in a tournament. I scored a quick point. Got into tsubazeri and whispered to him , "Now I will Punish You".And smiled. For the next 4 minutes he went through hell.

Payback is a B*tch.

[Hai_hai]

...Every sensei that I felt abused me are did something wrong to me as a child, I had them on a mental list and 1 by 1 when i grew up, I punished them...

Hmm, you must have watched "Death Wish" or something.

[Kendo-Militia]

Hmm, you must have watched "Death Wish" or something.Nope I just hold grudges. If you F@ck with me once, I F@ck with you for life. Yes I have issues. I'm like a Hemorrhoid. Just when you think I am gone, I come back. Might not be this month, next month, next year. But I will come back.

[kendokamax]

btw kokushikan is back in tournaments

They are still very strong, it was kantou individual taikai and one of their guy won it.

[moocow65]

Look, here's the thing. Instead of pushing them or hitting them, I would make them do drills over and over. When you get hit in the back of the head or tsuki-ed to the wall, in a way they are letting you off too easy. Why give you a hard push from the back just once when I can make you do men uchi from one end of the dojo to the other over and over again? I see nothing wrong in pushing people's bodies to their limits, but hitting them and doing other things that could potentially injure them seriously is B.S. If doing these cheap shots were so great for improving, how come they didn't incorporate them in the US Team Practices? Why? Because it's pointless and can cause injury. Do they do it in any other National Team Practices? If a sensei is truly dedicated to teaching, he'll drill you until you get it right, not hit you until you get it right.

[not-I]

Look, here's the thing. Instead of pushing them or hitting them, I would make them do drills over and over. When you get hit in the back of the head or tsuki-ed to the wall, in a way they are letting you off too easy. Why give you a hard push from the back just once when I can make you do men uchi from one end of the dojo to the other over and over again? I see nothing wrong in pushing people's bodies to their limits, but hitting them and doing other things that could potentially injure them seriously is B.S. If doing these cheap shots were so great for improving, how come they didn't incorporate them in the US Team Practices? Why? Because it's pointless and can cause injury. Do they do it in any other National Team Practices? If a sensei is truly dedicated to teaching, he'll drill you until you get it right, not hit you until you get it right.
Whatever. We've been through the multiple cross-dojo kirikaeshi and the 2-hour suburi marathons (i don't see what that has to do with encouraging proper zanshin anyway, which is the point of the push or the rear men tap). And you get tsukied to the wall because you allowed yourself to be pressured there in the first place. Jeez, we're not talking about Rodney King-style beatdowns here, we're talking about training. That's drilling and pressing you to your limits, sometimes with additional friendly encouragement. Hitting people is BS? What are we doing here? Badmitton?

You have your methods, fine, and i would not question them if i were training at your dojo. But the U.S. team did not invent kendo. Please dismount the high horse of self-righteous indignation and accept that different teachers do things differently in different places and situations and with the tacit consent of the students, rather than pretentiously ruling from afar which are "truly dedicated to teaching" and which are not. Please excuse my frankness, but who are you to judge? Your strong emotions and earlier name-calling (which you haven't yet retracted) in this matter seem to betray some deeper issues at work than a simple concern for relevance and safety.

[moocow65]

Tell me how a tap on the head improves your zanshin. And you can get tsuki-ed to the wall if someone charges at you and pushes you to the wall, it's not just about pressuring. I have practiced at highschools in Japan and have witnessed this BS. Have you? Look at the name of the thread. We're not talking about training like you said. It's sempai/kohai abuse. Speaking of training, so you're saying that getting whacked is a more efficient way of training than kirikaeshi? Hitting people like that is BS in kendo. We're supposed to be hit where we have protection. Do you want me to do a gyaku do in your ribs? Oh, it's just a little friendly encouragement so your zanshin will be better.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tell me how a tap on the head improves your zanshin.
Same way a push to the back does - it lets you know you're not accelerating through the point. If they get the tap or push, generally they'll go a little faster to avoid it. And I'm not hitting them unprotected, I'm hitting the men-buton, just from behind.

[moocow65]

Same way a push to the back does - it lets you know you're not accelerating through the point. If they get the tap or push, generally they'll go a little faster to avoid it. And I'm not hitting them unprotected, I'm hitting the men-buton, just from behind.

They'll go faster? What if their ashisabaki gets all messed up because they want to avoid getting hit? Pushing you messes up your suriashi. Zanshin isn't just about going fast. What if they're unable to accelerate through the point because their ankle hurts, and you mess it up even more by pushing them from behind? How do you know that they know the hit means to go faster? What if they think you're just being an asshole? Do you tell them beforehand. "When I hit you, that means you're going too slow."
Stop them, tell them, show them. Does it take that much effort to do that?

[Karaken]

They'll go faster? What if their ashisabaki gets all messed up because they want to avoid getting hit? Pushing you messes up your suriashi. Zanshin isn't just about going fast. What if they're unable to accelerate through the point because their ankle hurts, and you mess it up even more by pushing them from behind? How do you know that they know the hit means to go faster? What if they think you're just being an asshole? Do you tell them beforehand. "When I hit you, that means you're going too slow."
Stop them, tell them, show them. Does it take that much effort to do that?

That must be how it's been taught ( Japanese way? ) because my senseis used to do that. In the beginning, I thought they were just being mean - I didn't think you're allowed to hit from behind. Of course they've never explained that to me. I had to realize myself years later. Now I do that sometimes but I explain to them that they should go faster or turn around and be ready (or at least beware).

Center

[kendokamax]

as long as it doesnt hurt i dont see why not doing such things.

people always expect too much from the teachers: that they should give all the explaination about everything. Its an obvious thing to pass faster when doing men, I dont think you need to take so much time off to explain it to everyone all the time. Just a little push. as long as they dont hit the side of your men to hurt you etc.....it happened to me once when i went to keishicho i didnt really like it, but whatever.

so i say just a push is far from an abuse. abuse would be more like someone who will take their kamae down and go strong tsuki on you when you do kakari keiko etc. just to humilate someone (not to teach anything), and thats just plain retarted.

[AlexM]

I'm not sure everyone is talking about the same thing here...

When you "push" someone in the small of the back it's more like just letting them know your shinai is there. I don't think you actually "push" the person all that much (although for the record if people want to push me accross the floor a bit that's fine with me, saves me the effort :D).

Same thing with the "tap" to the head: It's not like your whacking down with even a quick snap, more like your letting your shinai fall on to the back of the men-buton to let the person know to speed up a bit (at least that's the way I do it).

I equate these more with "non-verbal" commands than with punishment or disapproval. It's easier to get the message accross that way that by saying "please try to go a bit faster", especially when you're in the middle of a practice and the sounds of kiai and shinai drown out everything else.

I don't think people here (Not-I, Neil) are talking about actually shoving someone across the floor, and they're not talking about doing it with malice or with intent (or even the possibility) to injure.

Sempai-kohai is an interesting system (which I won't go into detail about for lack of knowledge) but it really gets taken to extremes in some cases. The point is moot anyway, it doesn't work outside of the Japanese (and Korean) context. Even mild application of that kind of system (like having the newer students get water for the elders) would be considered abusive outside Japan.

[JSchmidt]

Moocow, we're not talking about the crap that goes on in Japanese highschools, but 'reminders'. (Although I do think that being tsuki'ed against the wall is too much).
Pushes in the back, small raps over the legs, etc is fine IMO. People will know that they're being too slow, leaving the left leg behind, etc.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

They'll go faster?
Yup, usually.

What if their ashisabaki gets all messed up because they want to avoid getting hit?
Same as if they start dancing sideways or some such - I take a different approach.


Pushing you messes up your suriashi.
The first time. The second time they start speeding up to keep ahead of the push.

Zanshin isn't just about going fast.
We're talking beginners here, or at least I am - I'm only concerned about the physical parts of going through, and as such I'm not really teaching zanshin here.

What if they're unable to accelerate through the point because their ankle hurts, and you mess it up even more by pushing them from behind?
I'm usually aware of any injuries or limitations they have, and adjust the practice to suit.

How do you know that they know the hit means to go faster?
Like any other non-verbal instruction, if they don't appear to be getting the point I'll stop them and explain.

Stop them, tell them, show them. Does it take that much effort to do that?
No, but once you've done that once it slows things up to do it again and again. They feel the tap, they know they went too slow. If I stopped them to explain every single time it would take half of forever.

If anything, I'm too much of an explainer/talker - who'd a thunk it (looks up at post count). My sensei is much more effective with just a few words and demonstrations than I am, and I hope to someday be as efficient a teacher.

[Revenir]

I didn't seem to see anyone give a reason for the tsuki against a wall thing so I thought I'd give one of my own. Saw the sensei do it the other day to a few students and it kinda does help the students, those who watch at least (guy against the wall might be thinking sensei was just being mean), understand that you don't leave your kamae open or stand inside issuko-itto without doing anything (especially against your sensei). The sensei kept doing a tsuki and moving back into kamae and doing another one (because the student wouldn't go back to kamae!), rinse and repeat till he got tired I guess.
No idea if it helped the guy being impaled but it sure helped me.

I'm chinese so I'm more or less impartial to their method of teaching but I never liked the push across the back, I'm going the fastest I'm capable of without making it hurt and he's pushing me... so should I be running across (like normal running, forgot the japanese term for it) after menouchi or keep to suriashi... And pushing doesn't exactly make me go faster the next time, at which time I know he'll push me again. I just can't, I know I should train up and work on my speed when I have the time, but it's not like there's enough time between this push and the next menouchi... And you can't exactly tell your sensei 'but I can't go any faster' so you're trapped there legs burning, doing menouchi after menouchi because you're not doing it fast enough and being propelled across the room at the same time.

[samurai999]

Hey Neil,

As for the injuries portion of it, you try to be aware, but there are instances where the sensei isn't really aware of it. What if some guy we don't know comes in from another dojo injured? We just had somebody twist their knee (fortunately it wasn't their meniscus or thier ACL, MCL or PCL). He got pushed from behind and landed awkwardly on his leg and fell to a heap on the floor. The other senseis knew it but not this one.

I have bad ankles and try to make it through practice, but when a sensei pushed me from behind I always favor it and try to divert my weight off that ankle. It doesn't really help me in my kendo development. I'd rather do kakari-geiko over and over and over again rather than get whacked, smacked, tsuki-ed to the wall, shoved, etc.

Tim

[samurai999]

Now that I think of it, wasn't there a budokan in Japan where a student died due to abuse and the place was shut down? This was like a couple of years ago?

Tim

[JSchmidt]

Now that I think of it, wasn't there a budokan in Japan where a student died due to abuse and the place was shut down? This was like a couple of years ago?

Tim
Forgot the name of the place, but it was one of the stronger universities. It has happened before, but this time it was the son of a senior police officer, if I remember right, which made it a high profile affair.
The student was beaten up outside the dojo by his sempai (and died of his injuries), so it didnt happen during keiko.

Jakob

[AlexM]

Hey Neil,

As for the injuries portion of it, you try to be aware, but there are instances where the sensei isn't really aware of it. What if some guy we don't know comes in from another dojo injured? We just had somebody twist their knee (fortunately it wasn't their meniscus or thier ACL, MCL or PCL). He got pushed from behind and landed awkwardly on his leg and fell to a heap on the floor. The other senseis knew it but not this one.

I have bad ankles and try to make it through practice, but when a sensei pushed me from behind I always favor it and try to divert my weight off that ankle. It doesn't really help me in my kendo development. I'd rather do kakari-geiko over and over and over again rather than get whacked, smacked, tsuki-ed to the wall, shoved, etc.

Tim

A) Are we talking about a full shove from behind (sans shinai) or a gentle pushing in the small of the back with the shinai parallel to the floor? It's two different things.

B) Who are all these people that practice when injured? I'm being the Devil's advocate here but, why should we change the way practice is held for a person that should be sitting out and watching due to injury?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't shove, it's more the parallel shinai booster idea. If you're practicing injured, it's your responsibility to let your instructors know. There's all kinds of crap that can happen, doesn't require any special abuse.

[DCPan]

Now that I think of it, wasn't there a budokan in Japan where a student died due to abuse and the place was shut down? This was like a couple of years ago?

Tim

Yeah...Kokushikan...someone earlier mentioned that they are operational again.

Also, the abuse actually happened outside the dojo...so it's not like someone was killed through abusing training.

:D

[samurai999]

A) Are we talking about a full shove from behind (sans shinai) or a gentle pushing in the small of the back with the shinai parallel to the floor? It's two different things.

B) Who are all these people that practice when injured? I'm being the Devil's advocate here but, why should we change the way practice is held for a person that should be sitting out and watching due to injury?

It was a full shove with the shinai in the back of the head IIRC at a godo keiko. The guy already has weak knees, ankles, shoulders, back, etc., but he still practices.

I was practicing when injured. (tweaked ankle) If all of us sat out just because of a tweaked foot or because of other things (bad shoulder, bad back), then we would have nobody practicing. :D If I sat out as well b'cause of injuries, then I would've quit kendo by now.

As for changing practice, we don't really change practice. We go hard, but let people sit out if they feel light-headed, feel something tweak (knee, shoulder, ankle). We have had a lot of freak injuries occur lately, even when properly stretched. I just believe that stuff like a shove to the back of the head or a tsuki to the wall just doesn't really teach anything and actually increases the risk of a career ending injury.

Tim

[Hai_hai]

...I just believe that stuff like a shove to the back of the head or a tsuki to the wall just doesn't really teach anything and actually increases the risk of a career ending injury...
I think that kendo is one of those martial arts that is not for the meek. I don't mind being pushed hard and taking hard hits is part of it all. Kendo isn't close to harsh treatment as other sports and martial arts like American football, wrestling, boxing, ice hockey, rugby, judo, full-contact karate, aikido, Thai boxing, etc.
I would not have started kendo if it were equivalent to iaido or basket-weaving, non-contact and physically easy to do.
Laziness in kendo is not acceptable and hard practices reinforces that aspect. If everyone is not going 100%, the whole group does the drill again until the sensei feels that everyone is putting out the same high-level of effort.
If all students were babied, dojos would be filled with limp-wristed, lazy kendoka who want the easy way toward kendo success.

The dude who got whacked, I think wasn't expecting the whack. Me, I moved fast, even with painful blisters, in order to avoid the whack. Those who are moving not up to speed just get the shinai push. Those who are moving at the proper speed don't get any thing. Some brutal treatment keeps the rich-boy show-offs out. This guy who got whacked had a fancy bogu and was not shodan.

[samurai999]

Painful blisters are one thing. A ripped ACL, concussion or achilles is another. We all go through our bumps, bruises and if you listen to me during a hard pratice, wheezing like I'm about to keel over and die, but I'd rather be stuck with blisters, bumps, bruises and a burning chest than spend 6 months away from kendo and 5000 bucks on rehab and surgery.

Doing the drill over and over again until you refine your techniques is good. Doing kakari-geiko till you drop is sometimes good too. So is a small shove in the small of the back to tell the guy that he isn't moving fast enough. But I still believe that there is a fine line between pushing your students to do well and totally bashing them in the floor. But I am not a sensei, so who am I to say that I'm right. :D

My 0.02$(US),
Tim

[Jearom]

Every human is different and need different things to motivate them.
While some might thrive on roughness, other do not and will eventually quit if they are treated harsly.
A push in the back might do the trick for many but not all.
I thought that by now it should be possíble to practise Kendo just for fun without any Samurai aspirations.
You might think what you are doing is fun and educational while the Kohai is suffering.
I can take a pushing and learn from it, but a chat after the practise on what needs to be corrected is far more effective.

[Akasha]

Laziness in kendo is not acceptable and hard practices reinforces that aspect. If everyone is not going 100%, the whole group does the drill again until the sensei feels that everyone is putting out the same high-level of effort.
This happens in our dojo, and I find the people who aren't being lazy don't mind doing it again and again anyway and the ones that are being lazy have to step it up. So it works for us.

When I first started I regularly got a push of the back to cut through faster or a tap to correct something. Then later, for example, if I was being pressured and not responding appropriately, for example, by cutting, or returning the 'pressure' I would be backed up until I hit the wall or was sat on a chair. I soon learned to attack and take more control over my opponents. (I had never done a martial art before and wasn't very confident.)

It worked for me!

But of course everyone is different. For me it made it extra fun and less serious in terms of my mistakes, for no words for me could have pointed them out better. And the more I enjoy it, the more I want to give and put into it.

And as for the way the Senpai treats me specifically - well I won't start! (he he) :wink: (maybe I just like it rough!?)

[Hai_hai]

And as for the way the Senpai treats me specifically - well I won't start! (he he) :wink: (maybe I just like it rough!?)


There are children reading this forum. We know your boyfriend is here so keep your fantasy, role-playing, S&M, kinky business out of here. Unless, you have photos to share. Then and only then is it okay.

[Eniac]

Hi everyone! I am kendoka for several months now, but I just joined forums...

Anyway, when I was first slaped with shinai during keiko I was furious. So I said to myself, If he strikes me againg and it bothers me, I'll just tell him to stop it. What else can you do? If there is something bothering you, you should talk to your sensei or sempai and see can you work it out.
As for me, I realized there is nothing sinister about it. So now I'm fine with any teaching techique they could come up with!

[Akasha]

There are children reading this forum. We know your boyfriend is here.
Point taken - apologies - got a bit excited and carried away, you won't here another peep out of me on the subject. :disapp:

[Blue Bogu]

During Kakari-geiko, if my legs dont match my strikes, my sensei hits my legs with the shinai until the kakari-geiko problem is fixed.

[not-I]

I think it's important to again note that all the "rough stuff" your sensei might dish out to you is done with your tacit consent. Just by stepping up to ji-geiko with sensei, you are already requesting him/her to teach you, and if you have been practicing sincerely with him/her for a while, s/he will happily oblige.

Our sensei sometimes asks us over beer keiko, "Am I too nice to you in ji-geiko?" This always reminds me of the what the Zen master Te-shan used to say to his students: "If you can speak, it's thirty blows, and if you can't speak, it's thirty blows!" :wink:

[JHusch]

I think it's important to again note that all the "rough stuff" your sensei might dish out to you is done with your tacit consent. Just by stepping up to ji-geiko with sensei, you are already requesting him/her to teach you, and if you have been practicing sincerely with him/her for a while, s/he will happily oblige.

Our sensei sometimes asks us over beer keiko, "Am I too nice to you in ji-geiko?" This always reminds me of the what the Zen master Te-shan used to say to his students: "If you can speak, it's thirty blows, and if you can't speak, it's thirty blows!" :wink:
haha thats kinda along the same lines of "The beating will stop when moral improves" :)

[Hai_hai]

So, when you say "onegai shimasu", you are saying please with the implied part of teach me. Sometimes, the student just says onegai shimasu out of habit and the senpai just beats you out of habit. :)

[JSchmidt]

On a slightly different note, I was doing (jodan) kakari-geiko with my teacher today (who can be a little rough, although I dont mind).
As I went for men, he neatly sidestepped, and whacked my shinai as I was pulling it back up (while going through). Result was rather suprising. Instead of the shinai getting knocked to the floor, it went out of my hand and flew straight as an arrow across the dojo, towards both a group of fellow kenshi's waiting, but also a group of people watching...and it went *fast*!. Luckily noone got hit by it, but it did have quite a few people ducking out of the way!.
Even from my point of view, it looked extremly cool :). (It also rebounded half the way back, so I didnt have to go very far to pick it up;P)

Jakob

[Hyaku]

Here in Japan its called "ai no muchi". Its only done if you repeatedly dont try to correct something and not done with malice.

If its not done with that attitude your sempai should stop. However If you cant accept a bit of ai no muchi in Kendo you should give up.

But even in Japan I must admit I have seen some uncalled for violence that they insist be done in front of everybody.