Bouting With Your Teacher

[Old Warrior]

Every time I have the privilege of fighting with the Master, it's the same routine. He waits for me to make the first move and then counters. Many times I enter the bout determined not to "give in" and attack, but it's like I'm embarrassed not doing something, so I commit - and get hit. It seems like the unwritten rule that you are obligated to take the fight to the superior. I can feel the time ticking away and I think, "one is not suppossed to worry about winning (I will never beat the Master), just attack, attack and attack".

First - do I have this right? Second, I am not a kid any more and I am best served by conserving energy and picking my spots. The result is that my Kendo with the Master, is below what I am capable of doing because it is forced. Any good thoughts?

[crettin]

I've always tried and watch what he does, either while countering or attacking. You'll pick up on the subtle hints that everyone has. Also, be a little more patient and wait for the right moment, otherwise it's just wasted energy :)

[not-I]

[...] It seems like the unwritten rule that you are obligated to take the fight to the superior. I can feel the time ticking away and I think, "one is not suppossed to worry about winning (I will never beat the Master), just attack, attack and attack".

First - do I have this right? Second, I am not a kid any more and I am best served by conserving energy and picking my spots. The result is that my Kendo with the Master, is below what I am capable of doing because it is forced. Any good thoughts?
In my limited experience, and from what i gather from his comments, ji-geiko with sensei is a unique opportunity for personal instruction, even if nothing is said during or afterwards. The more often you do it, the more s/he remembers where you left off and it becomes like a continuing story where you soak up the teaching through experience. However, s/he can judge your weaknesses and help you to gradually overcome them only when you are continuously attacking -- not blindly, but continously. Like you said, the clock is ticking, and you want to learn the most from the precious time you have with him/her. Some of the openings s/he may leave for you may be obvious traps, but it seems to be "ungrateful" not to accept them - my sensei practically told me as much during one session. Of course it's tiring, and you get whacked to the point of discouragement, but part of the experience is also to gain more endurance and improve your fighting spirit - you might not know your limits, but with enough sparring, your sensei will. Also, the more you attack, the more tired you become, and the less you think - this gets rid of "forcing" anything besides the transcendence of your own limitations. In my opinion, if you're not exhausted after sparring with sensei, you're doing something wrong and, in a way, insulting him/her. If s/he doesn't deserve your best kendo and 100% effort, who does?

These are just the thoughts of a fellow beginner. It would be interesting to hear how the sensei in this forum see it from their perspective.

[LNGUYEN]

You will never win over your teacher, so why don't you just attack as much as possible. From there your teacher can show you your weakness, your improvement, and you will know what need to improve. When I bout with my Sensei, I don't think about losing or winning but hoping he will point out what should I improve through practice. At the end, he is still your teacher and whatever you are going to try on him is whatever he taught you. He knows everymove you make because that is what he teaches you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

[snip]
These are just the thoughts of a fellow beginner. It would be interesting to hear how the sensei in this forum see it from their perspective.
I agree with you 100%, very well said. Stop thinking about winning, and think more about improving.

[Old Warrior]

I fully understand that there is no winning or losing in practice - period. And, there will never be "winning" (for me) in an encounter with a highly skilled 7th Dan. However, there is succeeding in an attack and there is failing in the attempt. My inquiry is really a little more focused than my words explain.

My best kendo relies upon pressuring an opponent to make a mistake. I have zero ability to pressure the Master into doing anything. I wish I did, but I don't. Ask Karaken and Sminki, they both have experienced facing Master Seong. And, these two men are highly skilled (much better than me) and many grades above me. They are also many years younger than me. So, what am I supposed to do when my opponent: will not get close enough to allow my shoto to take him off center, can feel that my cut to the head is really a disguised waist cut or wrist cut, etc. etc.

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. He watches me practice. He knows what I can and can't do. He knows how fast I'm "not". If I can't figure out what I need to do with my brain, while I'm sitting here relaxed - what chance do I have in our next encounter. And the strangest part is that the reason I, so much, want to do good - is to show that I have been paying attention and I am appreciative of the instruction. Only somebody else who does this could understand.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. [yadda yadda yadda]
You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower. Every one of us faces this exact same situation with our sensei. Go hard and trust him to guide your practice.

[hyuna]

Our club has many older beginners (by which I mean 40s, 50s) and so this is a problem I struggle with constantly from the other side of the fence.

The reality is that the older beginners simply cannot last through 1.5 or 2 hour even moderately difficult kendo practice, so it doesn't really do any good to say "don't worry about winning." Our older beginners are worried about making it to the end of the practice session in one piece, nevermind winning. That includes the ones who are in better shape.

The closest thing to a helpful comment I can think of right now is that there is a temptation to attack half-heartedly in order to conserve energy for later. That is counterproductive because attacks must be fully committed, so by holding something back for later, it actually wastes energy instead of saving it. Moreover, it means that I am obliged to make them practice even harder to make up for the sloppiness, so it is even harder on them.

Other than that I can say only the obvious: the older player has advantages over a younger player, and you must learn to use them. Take the fight to your opponent, but learn to do it in a way that utilizes your years of hard-won wisdom and insight instead of physicality. Unfortunately, I do not know how this can be taught and performed without first learning the physical method (which, again, is a training method largely inaccessible to the older player).

I would be very interested in insights people have to offer that relate to the specifics of practice with older beginners.

[Old Warrior]

"You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower."

Every flower is unique and special, if you take the time to examine it closely. But, no flower is perfect and therefore all are equal in their imperfection.

Whoahhhhhhhh, how's that for deep?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Very deep. I think the unique and special flower bit is from Full Metal Jacket, the retrieval from my internal pop culture database is incomplete :)

[Shazzanzzz]

I haven't been doing kendo for that long, but i think it's a waste time standing around in ji-geiko. Unless I'm going against someone outside of my club or dojo, i usually never wait for anything. If it's the sensei, I just seme and attack.
I mean, it's practice, it's ont a shiai. I fight totally differently in shiai.

[Dave Fowler]

I also think it matters on the level of the students as well. At lower level the students tend not to have a good grasp of semei (sp?) and are also typically lower in spirit, especially when facing a much higher ranked student or sensei. With that in mind sensei is usually expecting the lower ranked students to be attacking alot, which is why they might wait, to see if your spirit is strong. Also it allows them to see what your techinque is like. Finally part of fighting at higher levels is to learn when your opponent has made a mistake or opening and to take advantage of it, sometimes making the opponent make the mistake is part of it as well. This said the sensei could be showing you that you don't always have to attack blindly, but rather you need to wait and feel your opponent out. That of course does not imply that you aren't giving it your fullest, rather that you are attempting to use seme.


I don't know if that helped or not, but it's what I've seem to seen in the years as I've moved along.

[darren]

You are not, as they say, a unique and special flower.
I have finished my poem...

They are all perfect.

[JSchmidt]

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. He watches me practice. He knows what I can and can't do. He knows how fast I'm "not". If I can't figure out what I need to do with my brain, while I'm sitting here relaxed - what chance do I have in our next encounter. And the strangest part is that the reason I, so much, want to do good - is to show that I have been paying attention and I am appreciative of the instruction. Only somebody else who does this could understand.
Oh, I think many of us here know what you mean...but I think you are trying *too* hard.(I go through this every week)...and even very experienced people go through this. I've seen (in Japan) 7th dans made look like rank beginners by 8th dans. (Was standing in line watching and my ego clicked in saying 'at least there's someone at my level', until I got to practice with him!)
Basicly, you're suffering from fear and doubt. (heh, I can't remember the 2 others of the '4 diseases'). Fear of failing in front of your teacher and doubt in your own ability...and we all suffer from that, to various degree.
What your teacher is most likely looking for, is commitment in the attacks. That when you go for a target, you *go*!. No half measures, but carry the attack through, regardless of it being succesful or not. To do that, you'll have to try to suppress your fear and doubt (otherwise it will always be a half-arsed attempt) and it's not very easy to do.
At that level, they're all pulling us around like puppets on string, so it's up to us to make sure, when they do pull those string, we give it everything possible and try to make it look as good as possible.

Jakob

[Hyaku]

Well there is no easy way around it. I did not come to Japan until I was 34. I was a yudansha before I came but would more or less discount that as Gaijin Kendo.

It was a new start, get up the top end and take the medicine. I dread to think what would happen if I didnt give 100% plus daily, at all times. No half hearted stuff. Our methods were simple. If you can actualy get something you might finish with Kiri kaeshi. If you dont within an allotted time it's Kakari Geiko till you "drop"

Eventually I started to take the occasional cut. The rest he gave me. I always remember coming home and we would talk. "I hit him today"! "Nah get lost you will 'never' hit him. He only gives you stuff". Then my freind saw it and said, "Damn you really did hit him". It comes slowly but surely because they really do come down to your level and drag you upwards.

I was not actually allowed to do Keiko with Sensei for around three months. My friend took around half a year. The prime objective "is" to get tired. That"s when you do some of your best work in a completly relaxed manner that pushes that subliminal message through that fighting is not derived from tension. Get on the teachers side and its a matter of wearing the young ones down to do that kind of work.

Go take the medicine then back down the dojo to practice with people of your own level and in time all the work will show through.

It was constantly in the back of my mind that, "Damn I might not get up to reasonable level cos I am too old". But older people have a tremendous advantage. I can drill young energetic high schoolers for hours and hours, weeks and weeks but that message never kicks in. They are young and strong and do very physical kendo. It's not how fast or how strong but "when" that counts. Hopefully your teacher will teach you the "when" bit.

Hope this helps.

[ctan]

Hi, Old Warrior! Actually, I had the same experience some time ago as well when practising with Sensei Minoru Kiyota (he's the man who wrote the Shambhala Guide to Kendo). He's apparently trained in Katori Ryu as well so he takes up some seriously weird kamae in jigeiko and carries out some rather unorthodox techniques. Initially, I think I was just overawed by his status as sensei and his reputation, and confused by his kamae. And, of course, since he has a lifetime's worth of experience more than me when it comes to kendo, he read my every move all of the time and hit me A LOT.

After a few sessions though, I simply didn't care about getting hit anymore. I found myself just wanting to get in one good clean hit; you know, a solid, uncontestable datotsu, even if it meant I got hit one hundred times, one thousand times before I got one in. And, as I focused more and more on that, I also started to feel less overwhelmed by him. I figured I'd do whatever it took to get that nice clean point, so I bashed (harai) his shinai aggressively to take center, kiai-ed loudly into his face, threatened him as best as I could with aggressive seme, and.....well....just hit when I felt I had half a chance to score that hit I was looking for. I mean, after two minutes with him, I was *exhausted*! I'd given everything! But, at the end of each one of these sessions, he'd nod at me and go, "Good, good." and give me some advice on my form and tell me what he thinks I should work on, etc.

In the end, I think jigeiko with sensei is simply keiko. It's a time to learn, and at least in my experience, the only way to learn is to just try/experiment and do everything you can think of and note what happens; think about what worked and what did not, and devise new ways to get that point. It's actually great that you get to learn from your sensei so regularly. Kiyota sensei rarely comes around to practises; I wish it weren't the case but it is. So, you're lucky! Go for broke! :)

[Karaken]

OW, how are you? Your situation is unique because many Japanese Senseis will let student hit them as long as they have reasonable form and kiai that are proper to their level. This is exactly to prevent situations like yours - feeling desperate. However, Master S is little different.
Anyway, in Kendo ( or any Martial Art ), you should think simple. If you have a real sword and are facing an opponent who is much more skillful than you are and you must fight, what will you do? If you don't want to be killed ( well you might get killed anyway but if you even want a remore chance ), you'll have to try your darndest best. If you don't care about your own safety ( defense ) then actually you will have much better chance. That's why we're taught not to worry about blocking.. Read Mushin + Fudoshin thread - Don't worry about anything - just go for it as if that moment is only thing that matters - and don't worry about the consequences either. They've done that when their life was on the line - At least you don't have to bet yours :-)

Center

[kendokamax]

go tsuki

he might attack you more after that

[taiwnezboi]

It's hard to explain. I feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I have been taught all these skills, but I am facing the person who taught me. He watches me practice. He knows what I can and can't do. He knows how fast I'm "not". If I can't figure out what I need to do with my brain, while I'm sitting here relaxed - what chance do I have in our next encounter. And the strangest part is that the reason I, so much, want to do good - is to show that I have been paying attention and I am appreciative of the instruction. Only somebody else who does this could understand.

I know how you feel.. but I also had to go against some of my instructors in a tournament.. that's even worse =P

[Old Warrior]

All of the thoughts have been really helpful and I am getting closer to understanding what I must try and do. I think that my difficulty is compounded by my doing nito. (For those who think: this was my idea or why would a lowly ranked kenshi be practicing nito - don't waste your comments) Karaken can back me on this one - it wasn't my idea, I was given 2 shinai and told "you will learn".

From what I understand, the nito "mentality" is a somewhat different. I have been taught to wait, to have patience, to close the distance surreptitiously, to use the shoto to confuse. When you face the Master and he does not attack, it throws everything off. As I advance he retreats. As I try to use the shoto to move his shinai off center, he pulls back his hands or refuses to let me engage. So there I stand - confused. Remember, the nito cut is slower because it starts above the head, so I can't ever expect success by simply giving all I have to an attack of the first intention. Unless the attack forces him to defend and becomes a cut he did not anticipate, I have no hope.

I think that's it!!!!!! I need to attack with everything I have always disguising my true intention or expecting to be blocked and immediately going to another attack while in close. Welllllllll, at least its a plan.

[slidercrank]

Old Warriior:

Let's look at this from another way: when you bout with other fellow students, have you noticed that you're having more success? More able to pressure, confuse and then cut them? If so, then that shows you have been improving, and in no small way that's due to your practice with the master. Even though you're feeling just as frustrated as ever while practicing with him, unbeknownst to you, you have been improving.

[hyuna]

I have been taught to wait, to have patience, to close the distance surreptitiously, to use the shoto to confuse. When you face the Master and he does not attack, it throws everything off. As I advance he retreats. As I try to use the shoto to move his shinai off center, he pulls back his hands or refuses to let me engage. Unless the attack forces him to defend and becomes a cut he did not anticipate, I have no hope.

I think that's it!!!!!! I need to attack with everything I have always disguising my true intention or expecting to be blocked and immediately going to another attack while in close. Welllllllll, at least its a plan.

Remember the kendo maxim "Katte ute, utte katsuna", "Win then strike, don't strike to win."

I am about to abuse fencing terminology, so please understand I am speaking metaphorically. Most successful kendo attacks are really second intention attacks. However, the first intention attack is not a cut with the sword, it is seme.

When he stands there quietly, it *is* an attack. He is trying to control your weapon just as surely as if he were batting it about with his. You admit that you lose because he forces you to attack. Because *be* forces *you*, you are attacking in a way he can easily control. Functionally speaking, what does it matter if he forced your attack with a feint or by waiting you out?

Think of it along those lines. If someone lunges and you and you parry/riposte, but they are doing a 2nd intention defense so they will do a counter-riposte. What do you do? By analogy what you just suggested is that you should hide your intention (by which I assume you mean intended target) for your initial riposte? He forced your attack, and so he has more control over where your riposte is aimed than you do. Or you should assume your initial riposte will fail and therefore try for a counter-counter-riposte? Does that really seem like it will be effective?

I think there is great danger in "expecting to be blocked." If you always expect to be blocked, when you are *not* blocked, your attack will not be good. Because your initial attack will never be any good your opponent can simply use debana and you will lose since there is no chance for ai-uchi. This kind of thinking is a variation on what I commented on before about conserving energy. When you attack, you have to attack 100%. There are no options there.

Consider this: if you are advancing, and he is retreating, you are controlling the tempo. He cannot back up forever. For one, the floor is of limited size and if he circles around, you can step in. For another, it is easier to move forward than backwards. He is responding to your pressure by moving back just as someone someone responds to a feint with a parry. Don't worry if he blocks, it doesn't matter. Don't worry if he hits you, that doesn't matter either. Just concentrate on making a correct attack of your own.

[ctan]

Hi, Old Warrior! I've been thinking; maybe you should actively try to elicit the threshold point that'll force your sensei to attack you instead of playing it defensive. So, maybe try closing the distance really sharply and aggressively. If all else fails, get within range and thrust at his tsuki with your shoto! *tongue in cheek* Don't let him back away enough to "move around"; just keep closing in on him and try to match his footwork until he finally initiates an attack. I mean, the man must have a break point; after some threshold degree of recklessness on your part, he must attack. Once you've establish his threshold, then maybe you can start working backwards from there and decide on an optimal zone for yourself. At least you'll know what you'll need to do to elicit a response. Just a suggestion.

[ctan]

Hi, Hyuna! I do, of course, agree with you on the key kendo principle that we must ideally strive to overcome our opponent with our seme and spirit and then winning the point becomes a natural consequence of this deeper, more meaningful victory. But, I do think that at the earlier stages of kendo, it isn't very useful to think too much about the attack because otherwise, you'll simply never make up your mind to do so. I think it may be more important just to get comfortable with the act of attacking in the first place (it builds a "no hesitation" mindset, I think), and only after that act becomes natural, to worry about identifying the correct moments/opportunities for attack. As I said, however, I do agree with you that "Win then strike, don't strike to win" is something that one should work towards....but maybe just not something one should practice to start with? Just MHO.

[hyuna]

Hi ctan,

I think to "win then strike" is an essential fundamental concept for everyone.

If you think about your opponent as yourself instead of the person standing opposite you, then the meaning of "win then strike" changes a little. OW has said several times that he cannot win against his teacher. One who defeats themself before the fight has no chance of winning. This is why it is essential to not worry about "winning" or "getting hit," and instead to focus on improving.

In addition to that, there is the tactical principle that you spoke of, of domnating your opponent to ensure a successful attack. But to some degree, I think this is secondary because without being confident, you cannot win in any meaningful way (that is, maybe you can get in a lucky hit, but such a hit has nothing to do with your ability, so it is empty and meaningless).

Finally, if your measure of success in kendo is being able to hit someone on the head, then ultimately we will all fail when our bodies fail us due to age or illness. Thus "strike to win" is a losing proposition in any large sense. This fact is obviously much more meaningful and important to the older student who cannot always make their body do what they want, than the younger who can win out through brute strength and vigor.

So after all of that long-winded reply, I think we really agree. You have to build a "no hesitation" mindset, but part of that is adopting a "win" mindset. As I see it, it is part of the "win then strike."

[Old Warrior]

"I think there is great danger in "expecting to be blocked."
Why, when you are controlling what is happening you are more likely to succeed in the encounter. Also, you gain information about your opponent by seeing how he reacts.

"... when you are *not* blocked, your attack will not be good. Because your initial attack will never be any good your opponent can simply use debana and you will lose"
Every attack must be with the ferocity necessary to succeed, but that does not mean that one cannot plan (through practice) a more complex combination that plays off of the intial block.

"When you attack, you have to attack 100%. There are no options there."
Absolutely, but one has to practice and be prepared for what happens when it fails (as it will, inevitably, against a skilled adversary).

I speak as Kendo novice, but I put decades into epee fencing. I used to practice combinations like: 1/2 lunge to the wrist, immediate thrust to the underside of the hand as it is reflexively withdrawn, followed by a full lunge to the torso. If the underside thrust drew an immediate parry riposte/counter thrust, it would be engaged in a six parry and then I would riposte back to arm or lunge to the torso, depending on what was available.

The shinai and the tactics associated with its use, are at the same time, less complex in their movement (than epee) and more complex in their execution (there is no discussion of the subtleties of pressure in European fencing, although they clearly exist). No discussion such as this would ever have beeen had with my Maestro. He simply set the exercise, insisted that I do it at attack speed, over and over. Then he would toss in a movement that was unanticipated - just to see what I would do. He honed muscle memory without conversation. In bouting, the things I learned seemed to just happen without thought. After years and years of practice you could see attacks like they were in slow motion and the response came from within as if you were a puppet.

God willing, I will live long enough to enjoy a similar feeling in my Kendo journey.

[not-I]

In bouting, the things I learned seemed to just happen without thought. After years and years of practice you could see attacks like they were in slow motion and the response came from within as if you were a puppet.
Wow, this thread is getting more and more philosophical.
I like the puppet metaphor. Have you ever read the essay "On the puppet theatre" (Über das Marionettentheater) by Heinrich von Kleist? It's one of the classic texts cited as being equally applicable to European and East Asian swordsmanship.

[hyuna]

Hi Old Warrior,

Perhaps I misunderstood you when you said "expecting to be blocked." Perhaps you meant to be prepared in case you were blocked. That is zanshin, and is entirely appropriate. I thought you meant to always initiate with a feint, but after reading your response I think I was mistaken. The only thing I meant to express is that if you expect the first strike to fail, it will never succeed, and, therefore, against someone like your teacher all you are doing is to giving up a tempo. The first strike has to be able to score or else it is just a waste of energy. Worse, it creates an opening.

During kendo practice we would also never have a discussion like this. But this is a forum, not a class--we can't practice here; all we can do is talk...

As for simply setting the exercise and doing it over and over again, I do not know what your practice routine is like, but that kind of thing (in the form of uchikomi and some kakarigeiko) generally makes up the majority of our kendo practice. But you seemed to be talking about jigeiko, or free sparring, so I am not sure how it relates.

[Old Warrior]

"As for simply setting the exercise and doing it over and over again, I do not know what your practice routine is like, but that kind of thing (in the form of uchikomi and some kakarigeiko) generally makes up the majority of our kendo practice. But you seemed to be talking about jigeiko, or free sparring, so I am not sure how it relates."

Please forgive my misuse of terms as I learn them in Korean (not that I could spell them right, anyway).

After a brief warm-up we do kirakeshi, once with all men strikes and then with all do cuts after the initial men. We then do 4 reps of everything you can imagine from large men, kote, do, kote men, and then all of tsubazeri routines you can conceive. New techniques are put into the mix to keep it interesting. Aside from suburi I estimate in an hour class one would do 100 cuts of various varieties.

When I took an epee lesson, I might be told to practice the same combination 25 times; which meant there could be 100 thrusts and I probably was asked to do 20 or more combinations in a 1/2 hour, one on one class. Where I'm going with this is that in half the time (of my typical Kumdo class), I would typically do 5 times the number of strikes, if not more. I never bouted with my Maestro and no training time was spent bouting or waiting for my turn to bout. A lesson was one on one intense repetition, until the Maestro used up whatever he thought was in your tank.

One of my big complaints with epee was that I never got bouting critique and I surely didn't fence with my teacher, during a lesson. In Kumdo, I find it harder to learn muscle memory because we do everything as a group, rotate partners frequently and the class is slowed by those who get correction. On the other hand, most classes allow me to bout at least twice with the Master watching and then critiquing my effort. The upside, is that I usually attend 4 classes a week, each about an hour. Still, I think I could use a lot more reps of those tecniques that I do poorly, so the movements will become second nature. But, I understand, that one of the overall concerns of the Master is to make the classes interesting for the teenagers. Just because I'm an anal retentive wildman with an insatiable thirst for knowledge - doesn't mean that the world has to revolve around me.

[ctan]

Hi, Hyuna! Ah, I see what you meant now. Yes, I certainly agree with you about the need to be confident in jigeiko; to "believe in yourself and your ability to win", so to speak. And, to execute each strike with the assumption that it'll succeed (in fact, to complete the whole technique *as if* it'd succeeded even if it had not). That's what I meant when I said that it may be useful to just put doubt (and strategy; at least at the beginning stages) aside, and just get used to the act of attacking. Over time, I think this helps build confidence in one's *ability* to execute strikes, and at that point, after that confidence has been acquired, perhaps it would be an opportune time to start paying more attention to strategic aspects like training at the proper use of seme.

Hi, Old Warrior, I do agree with you regarding the lack of "intensity" and repetition in typical practices. I feel the same way about my training sessions as well. We typically do around 20-25 repetitions *in total* of each exercise which I really think is woefully inadequate for building muscle memory. When I was younger and playing tennis, the rule was something akin to 500-1000 reps a day to secure muscle memory. I'm convinced that ultimately, either we need to seriously supplement dojo sessions with private-time suburi, or, start working out with a training dummy (I'm not sure if your dojo has those, but it should not be too hard to build one otherwise) in our own time.

[Karaken]

"When you attack, you have to attack 100%. There are no options there."
Absolutely, but one has to practice and be prepared for what happens when it fails (as it will, inevitably, against a skilled adversary).

God willing, I will live long enough to enjoy a similar feeling in my Kendo journey.

I finally come upon this where Kendo differs from Fencing..

Kendo actually teach not to worry about "what happens when it fails".
This might be more of Japanese thing but for this reason, many dueling Samurais died together. Per my previous statement, if you don't worry about your safety ( Attack, Attack ), you'd actually have a better chance against stronger opponent. There is also ancient Chinese Sword technique called " Mutual Death" used by inferior side. It's designed to kill both fencers when the inferior side must kill stronger one. Hope this helps you to understand why we shouldn't worry about defense and no Sensei will ever teach you how to block..:-)

Center

[inner_cent]

Every time I have the privilege of fighting with the Master, it's the same routine. He waits for me to make the first move and then counters. Many times I enter the bout determined not to "give in" and attack, but it's like I'm embarrassed not doing something, so I commit - and get hit. It seems like the unwritten rule that you are obligated to take the fight to the superior. I can feel the time ticking away and I think, "one is not suppossed to worry about winning (I will never beat the Master), just attack, attack and attack".

First - do I have this right? Second, I am not a kid any more and I am best served by conserving energy and picking my spots. The result is that my Kendo with the Master, is below what I am capable of doing because it is forced. Any good thoughts?

Well.. my comment is regardless of your age.
When comes to keiko with a sensei, have you wonder what is the sensei try to teach you ? Maybe everytime you about to land a hit on those sensei, but somehow countered you at the last moment. Can you imagine, If that is the case already, what would had happen if they initiated the attack ? you probably didn't even get the chance of do anything.
Lots of sensei I know of made the student to "Attack, Attack, Attack, and attack..." throughout of the keiko session, there always a reason behind it. Eg. cultivating Spirit by continuously attacking, teach you that you must create your own opportunity, and alot of cases, they teaches you that you have to totally, fully committed into every attack. Without 100% commitment into your attack, that mean you have doubt about your own attack, hence, generates hesitation, which equals to giving the sensei the time to pick you off using counter attacks.


Anyway... enough of my mumbling..... try not to think too much when keiko with sensei, only reflect yourself about your own performance when you ahve finished. Are you happy the way you keiko, and are you happy with the result, and maybe what can you do to improve it.

Its all a learning cycle.

[Old Warrior]

"Hope this helps you to understand why we shouldn't worry about defense and no Sensei will ever teach you how to block."

Forgive me, as I am neither implying that I have greater knowledge or that my opinion is seasoned or more knowledgeable.

A Kendo match is 2 points and simultaneous cuts will result in nether being scored. This alone, suggests to me that Kendo, as a 20th century activity (rather than a recreation of a 17th century activity) needs a mindset other than the acceptability of mutual destruction. Moreover, my anecdotal experience tells me that when facing an opponent who is less than 1/2 my age and in better physical shape (which is everyone given my knees) - I will never be fast enough to simply see an opening and make a successful cut. I can do a debanna waza (cut first) or a variety of other techniques, but over power an adversary with large fast perfect cuts - I don't think so.

This does not discourage me at all. It tells me that I must practice more and that I be prepared for what needs to be done when my attack fails. I have difficulty dealing with the concept that because I accept that every attack will not succeed that I am giving less than my fullest energy to every attack. Furthermore, I have trouble accepting that I cannot initiate an attack for the purpose of drawing out my adversary and getting him to commit to a technique that I can counter.

[Wout]

A Kendo match is 2 points and simultaneous cuts will result in nether being scored. This alone, suggests to me that Kendo, as a 20th century activity (rather than a recreation of a 17th century activity) needs a mindset other than the acceptability of mutual destruction. Moreover, my anecdotal experience tells me that when facing an opponent who is less than 1/2 my age and in better physical shape (which is everyone given my knees) - I will never be fast enough to simply see an opening and make a successful cut. I can do a debanna waza (cut first) or a variety of other techniques, but over power an adversary with large fast perfect cuts - I don't think so.

This does not discourage me at all. It tells me that I must practice more and that I be prepared for what needs to be done when my attack fails. I have difficulty dealing with the concept that because I accept that every attack will not succeed that I am giving less than my fullest energy to every attack. Furthermore, I have trouble accepting that I cannot initiate an attack for the purpose of drawing out my adversary and getting him to commit to a technique that I can counter.
imho: don't think about shiai when doing keiko, btw you don't die (niether get a point against you or for you) from a point scored by both kendokas, so why not attack, I mean it won't kill you and if he doesn't do anything because he's not paying attention or not able to strike back, you get a clean hit (personally I see no problem in attacking someone umpteen times even if I get blocked or counterattacked, only a shinai in my throat reminds me I should sometimes wait for an opening or make one myself).

-second: debana is idd a handy technique and all the others are also nice if you can pull them off, but what if the other doesn't attack. If you never attack on an opening and only wait for the attack, your opponent will not be under pressure. Ideally he's someone like me who is impatient and just attacks you cause he can't help attacking, but other will creep closer till they are certain you hardly have the time to do a counter and just have to block.

-third: well attacks fail, what are you gonna do about it?...... TRAIN offcourse, so your failed attacks decrease and your succesfull attacks increase :)

[JSchmidt]

It's been said previously, but you are too obsessed with winning/losing.
Remember, that you also learn by getting hit...secondly speed isn't everything.
My teacher is 20-odd years older than me and while fairly mobile, I'm certainly faster than him...can I hit him?..no a chance...but I still go out and try my hardest every time I practice with him. (I've practiced with people 50 years older than me and I still couldnt touch them.)

Jakob

[hyuna]

I have difficulty dealing with the concept that because I accept that every attack will not succeed that I am giving less than my fullest energy to every attack. Furthermore, I have trouble accepting that I cannot initiate an attack for the purpose of drawing out my adversary and getting him to commit to a technique that I can counter.

I will try to make this more clear.

First of all, you can "initiate an attack for the purpose of drawing out my adversary" -- that is a form of "pulling" seme. However, bear in mind the emphasis on the mental aspects. Your opponent is supposed to be reading your intentions, not just your actions. If you merely initiate an attack (raise/extend the shinai, slap your opponent's shinai) without an actual attack behind it, then your kamae is broken and you can be attacked. If you actually attack, but without an intention of actually hitting, your opponent is supposed to read that and they can simply ignore your attack. For example, you can do kote-men in the hope that the kote will ellicit some reaction from your opponent. But if you don't take the steps to make the kote successful--taking center, adjusting distance, actually aiming for kote--there is no reason to react to the kote. Your opponent can just stand there and your kote will miss and you will tsuki yourself. To force a reaction that you can try to take advantage of, your initiation has to be "real" -- it has to preceed a "real" attack. Then, the reaction is forced because the choice is to react or be hit. Granted, a weaker opponent maybe will react even if you do not have any intention to hit. But I assume we train to improve and defeat stronger opponents, not simply to beat lesser opponents, so that fact hardly matters.

So if the attack has to be a "real" attack in order to force a reaction, then the question becomes: what does it mean to "expect a block" (as you said in a previous post)? If the choice you are giving your opponent is block or be hit, then your attack would be the same regardless of them blocking or not. In other words, your expectation of being blocked or otherwise failing is utterly irrelevent. It should not affect anything having to do with the initial attack. Having potential failure in mind only creates the possibility it will affect your attack.

Now, after a "real" attack, there may be opportunity for a second attack. Taking advantage of this is zanshin. But, again, this has nothing to do expecting failure--after a successful attack there is often opportunity for a second attack, and you should be aware of that as well. So, from this sense, "one should be always ready to take advantage of an opening that occurs after you are blocked," but a better phrasing might be that "one should always be ready to take advantage of an opening at any time (including after being blocked)."

So the problem is not really "accepting that every attack will not be successful," it is that one must believe during the execution of an attack that it, itself, will be successful. 100% commitment to the strike is not just your body but also your mind. Worrying about being blocked or whatever only interferes.

And, you can just attack in order to create an opening. This is done frequently. But, if the attack is empty you are giving away an opening. The attack has to threaten your opponent in order to create that opening, and the only certain threat is the one that will score if not checked. Again, what constitutes a threat is different for different people. Simply yelling can be threatening. The question in this particular instance is what will your master see as a threat?

I hope this helps...

[JSchmidt]

Actually, just found an article on the British Kendo Association website describing the various types of ji-geiko and how they should be approached:

http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/index.shtml

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

Actually, just found an article on the British Kendo Association website describing the various types of ji-geiko and how they should be approached:

http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/index.shtml

Jakob

This article leaves no doubt what should be going through your mind when approaching bouting with a senior (or a junior, equal or the elderly). And, for the record, (forgive my lawyer's caveat) I don't care a whit about winning or losing, it is only the mindset/goal of the exercise that interests me.

[JSchmidt]

And, for the record, (forgive my lawyer's caveat) I don't care a whit about winning or losing, it is only the mindset/goal of the exercise that interests me.
My apologies then, but it was the impression I was getting from your comments :)

Jakob

[Shazzanzzz]

One thing that helps me in kendo is my stubbornness. Sometimes a sensei or a better kendoka would keep getting debana kote on me whenever i try for a men. Eventually, I'll just go for men every single time even after I get men a few times in a row. This helped me a lot because i learned how to go for men without worrying getting hit on the kote, and learned a bit how to not get hit while going for men, and when to hit men.

Of course, i still get hit on the kote a lot, but, i also hit men a lot, in keiko or shiai. Debana kote is still pretty much the only way i get scored on these days in shiai, ironically, mostly because i'm so stubborn i always think i can get their men before they hit my kote (something to work on). So, usually i win or lose by my men. The good thing about trying for men a lot, though, is the fact everything else opens up after you attack men.

If you know how your opponent is going to block or counter, there is always something you can do to counter that. When you do ji-keiko with someone you never practice with, it's really really fun because that's all you do, finding a way to counter their moves while they they think of ways to counter yours. But, I don't know anything about nito or about your sensei, so, i think it's something you should figure out yourself. There is only so much other people can help you in kendo, especially true for people who can't practice with you. I have never myself encountered an unstoppable waza. When I lose, it's either because his seme was stronger than mine, or because he's more ready than me. Maybe that's your problem against your sensei too.

I think kendo is way too complicated to look at complicatedly. If you look it simply, it's just u force ur opponent to do what u want them to do and then u win. Of course, the hard part is getting them to do that, but, that's what you learn through practice and failure. Old Warrior, I think your problem is that you may be thinking way too much about everything.

Look at Tom Cruise from Last Samurai, he suddenly became incredible after he started to have 'no mind.' Haha

[not-I]

Look at Tom Cruise from Last Samurai, he suddenly became incredible after he started to have 'no mind.' Haha:smiley: LOL. Amen, brother.

Nice post, Shazzanzzz, i even "added to your reputation" -- that feature has to be worth something.

[ben]

Very deep. I think the unique and special flower bit is from Full Metal Jacket, the retrieval from my internal pop culture database is incomplete :)

IIRR it was the pseudo-Zen stylings of Chuck Palanhiuk's (sp?) "Fight Club".
:)
b

[Kirin]

And, for the record, (forgive my lawyer's caveat) I don't care a whit about winning or losing, it is only the mindset/goal of the exercise that interests me.

Every time I have the privilege of fighting with the Master, it's the same routine.

Well, in general, we never use term 'fight'.
In japan, we use 'keiko' or 'okeiko', which means to practice.


.... if anyone uses 'fight' has win/lose mindset to me :rolleyes:

[Karaken]

"Hope this helps you to understand why we shouldn't worry about defense and no Sensei will ever teach you how to block."

Forgive me, as I am neither implying that I have greater knowledge or that my opinion is seasoned or more knowledgeable.

A Kendo match is 2 points and simultaneous cuts will result in nether being scored. This alone, suggests to me that Kendo, as a 20th century activity (rather than a recreation of a 17th century activity) needs a mindset other than the acceptability of mutual destruction. Moreover, my anecdotal experience tells me that when facing an opponent who is less than 1/2 my age and in better physical shape (which is everyone given my knees) - I will never be fast enough to simply see an opening and make a successful cut. I can do a debanna waza (cut first) or a variety of other techniques, but over power an adversary with large fast perfect cuts - I don't think so.

This does not discourage me at all. It tells me that I must practice more and that I be prepared for what needs to be done when my attack fails. I have difficulty dealing with the concept that because I accept that every attack will not succeed that I am giving less than my fullest energy to every attack. Furthermore, I have trouble accepting that I cannot initiate an attack for the purpose of drawing out my adversary and getting him to commit to a technique that I can counter.

OW, this thread is getting HOT.
Anyway, there is no doubt your thought process is logical and reasonable counselor. However, there are differences in thinking logical ( step by step, one plus one equals two ) and thiking leaps and bounds ( if you think hard maybe you can figure out the law of relativity all by yourself ).
Many senseis will tell you that SHIAI is really not a good Kendo. For example, moving your head to avoid MEN is frowned upon by many senseis even though it saves you from losing a tournament. So there is a tournament Kendo and there is a real Kendo ( one that you do when you go through a promotion test ). In fact, senseis really like AIUCHI ( Mutual Ippon ) even though it doesn't give you a point. Anyway, there is a reason why many senseis don't explain things because it's not really always explainable till you're ready to understand. Some simple thing like "Center" has many different meanings depends on where you are at your training level.
So, keep it simple, enjoy the process and try to get that illusive PEREFCT MEN. Even Debana, according to my Sensei, is not such a beautiful thing. The most beautiful thing to him is "A Strong Seme that absolutely overpowers your opponent" The next one is "A perfect Men resulted from that Seme". After that, it's just a kendo. Oh and then the last thing in his list is Shiai - The tournament - He thinks Shiai ruins your Kendo.. :-)

Center

[Old Warrior]

".... if anyone uses 'fight' has win/lose mindset to me"

One of the prime reasons I enjoy Kumdo is because it is not an exercise of words, but actions. When it comes to the use of words I possess great expertise. The Webster-Mirriam Dictionary defines "fight" as:

1 a : to contend in battle or physical combat; especially : to strive to overcome a person by blows or weapons
2 : to put forth a determined effort
(transitive senses)

My use of the word "fight" is not only appropriate, but highly accurate to the discussion. Your effort to denegrate the intercourse by a pejorative interpretation of my words is misplaced. What is in my mind and my heart is only mine to know.

[Kirin]

".... if anyone uses 'fight' has win/lose mindset to me"

One of the prime reasons I enjoy Kumdo is because it is not an exercise of words, but actions. When it comes to the use of words I possess great expertise. The Webster-Mirriam Dictionary defines "fight" as:

1 a : to contend in battle or physical combat; especially : to strive to overcome a person by blows or weapons
2 : to put forth a determined effort
(transitive senses)

My use of the word "fight" is not only appropriate, but highly accurate to the discussion. Your effort to denegrate the intercourse by a pejorative interpretation of my words is misplaced. What is in my mind and my heart is only mine to know.

Sorry, Old Warrior.... I do not know anything of kumdo....
and thanks for flipping pages on Webster dictionary.
And yes, term 'fight' do apply to kendo. Your definition #2 .
But if you are thinking of definition #1, you are missing the point.
Kendo is NOT battle/combat, and Kendo do not strive to overcome a person.

...... so in Kendo, we describe practice as;
打って反省　打たれて感謝 (utte hansei, utarete kansha)
and long striving kendo practice as;
守破離　(shu ha ri)

[Wout]

btw you brought it up about the aiuchi part not being good because it wouldn't score you a point and you could go on for hours doing it without scoring a point. :)

As for fighting with your sensei, well sometimes you get an opening, but most important is trying to make one, btw if I get an opening it's prolly because it has been given to me, but that doesn't spoil my fun.
Most important thing I think is trying to make good attack and keeping maai, not waiting for the other to do something and trying to react.

[Isak]

In the last All Japan Champs Ando-sensei lost in a beatiful Auich-men against another kendoka (dont remember his name) in the final. Totally uncanny, in normal speed they were perfectly simultaneous, on the replay though you saw clearly that Ando-senseis cut came after the other ones. The judges ,of course, saw imideatly who won (as well as the hachi dan commenting the competition)!

[Karaken]

In the last All Japan Champs Ando-sensei lost in a beatiful Auich-men against another kendoka (dont remember his name) in the final. Totally uncanny, in normal speed they were perfectly simultaneous, on the replay though you saw clearly that Ando-senseis cut came after the other ones. The judges ,of course, saw imideatly who won (as well as the hachi dan commenting the competition)!

That was Chikamoto Takuni - One of the most beautiful point I've ever witnessed.

Center

[kendokamax]

I dont think they saw who had hit the men first, only on slow motion can you tell

I think it was more like chikamoto had the better momentum (was more going foward than ando who more seemed like to react to the men of chikamoto)

these guys are not super human (hachi dan judging all japan) , I dont think they actually saw the hit of chikamoto hit first...

they actually made mistake during the competition (see the tsuki on satou during the second round from mori(?)) It didnt even touch the target.

[Isak]

In my book, seeing who "hit the men first" is the same as the ability to say who of the two made ippon and who didn't. Of course I don't think that hachi-dans have superhuman senses, they just know kendo way better than I do. If you can judge that Chikamoto had a better ippon than Ando just by looking at them in normal speed, that means you saw the hit as far as I am concerned. I didn't, they did. Therefore I am impressed.