Great vintage Naginata photo!

[Jakob Ryngen]

Press here! (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=298977#post298977)

[kendophx]

A great find. Thank you for the link.

Some thoughts:

1. The foot stance of the kendo-ka is much wider than in modern kendo. The 90 degrees on the left foot means he is planted, not as ready to move in as a person in {modern} kendo no okuri-ashi.

2. The naginata looks smaller than than the Tendo Ryu naginata. Different school? Foreshortening from photo angle? Optical illusion on my part?

3. Kata and not shiai or merely staged photo (as kata in bogu is rare, I think). Shinai against a solid wood weapon is a great way to put dents/cracks in your shinai.

4. Smaller tare. Possibility that both competitors used taijitsu (foot sweeps, hip throws, et cetera) after disarming their opponent or in lieu of tsuba-zeriai.


Maybe you could update us if the photo's poster has more information?
(and you have the spare time :) )

[Jakob Ryngen]

2. The naginata looks smaller than than the Tendo Ryu naginata. Different school? Foreshortening from photo angle? Optical illusion on my part?

A school using a shorter naginata certainly. There would have been more naginata-styles around when the photo was taken...

3. Kata and not shiai or merely staged photo (as kata in bogu is rare, I think). Shinai against a solid wood weapon is a great way to put dents/cracks in your shinai.

Staged photo, I guess. But solid naginata at all times until Atarashii Naginata emerged. Some used extra leather on the habu, though.

5. No sune-ate... I guess leg strikes must have hurt!

Unfortunately, I know nothing about the photo...

[R A Sosnowski]

[SNIP]

2. The naginata looks smaller than than the Tendo Ryu naginata. Different school? Foreshortening from photo angle? Optical illusion on my part?

Definitely not Tendo Ryu. From the shape of the "blade" and the overall length, I would guess Jikishinkage Ryu Naginata-jutsu.



3. Kata and not shiai or merely staged photo (as kata in bogu is rare, I think). Shinai against a solid wood weapon is a great way to put dents/cracks in your shinai.

[SNIP]

Staged for sure. If it is a vintage photograph, which I suspect it is from the equipment, the cameras of the time were too primative to support amything but a still shot.

[hamish]

Yeah, definitely staged, they certainly wouldn't be having a shiai on tatami against a wall!

[kendophx]

Gomen Kudasai.

I meant "staged" in the sense of the photographer asked the budo-ka to pose like this to create a dramatic picture; as opposed to, the photographer was attempting to recreate a realistic scene of shiai or kata from the dojo within the confines of his studio.

[laozi]

Reference. 1876 Tokyo

http://www3.ndl.go.jp/cgi-bin/osform/RM_Service?osform_template=nishiki_Detailmain.oft&P_INDEX=1&START_INDEX=0&MOVE_FLAG=0&TITLEID=608

[streetcleaner]

man! this site rocks! thank you

[xvikingx]

I wouldn't say staged; staged suggests (at least to me) that there is something false about the photo. But yes, definitely choreographed, because cameras of that time period did not take action shots. I imagine they held that position longer than they wanted to.

*Edit* Must learn to read more carefully. Sorry

[mystic_kendoka]

i think the kendoka's do is peculiar... it looks like some corrugated iron wrapped around his stomach...

[Stimpson J. Cat]

i think the kendoka's do is peculiar... it looks like some corrugated iron wrapped around his stomach...
It may be the bamboo slats, I have a 2004 calander from eguchi.net which has a picture on the cover dated 1937 showing kenshi wearing do which have the slats and lacing exposed rather then laquered over or whatever they do now that gives them the smooth surface.

[mystic_kendoka]

i wouldnt mind an iron doh...

[kendophx]

Reference. 1876 Tokyo


Thank you for the link.

The 2<-->3 panel clearly shows a naginata-no-hito vs. a kendo-ka with shinai.

However, out of all the budo-ka in the collage, the naginata-no-hito, which I think is a woman, is not wearing bogu (and the formally dressed shinpan, in panel 2). To me, this would indicate kata, or some form of shikaki-ojii.

However, it also might simply be an easier way to (artistically) indicate that she was a woman, so we are back to "What is the degree of realism in this woodblock?'. Note: the tare and dou appear to go completely around the bodies of the men grappling in panel 1, which I question the accuracy on. The triptych appears in excellent condition and has retained its colors pretty well. I appreciate that no matter what the degree of realism!

My husband thinks the kanji across the top of the triptych are the names of the people in the collage. At least one name appears feminine to him. The larger kanji in panel 2 are probably the names of the sensei and senior students of the dojo.

I think it is understood that all of this action was not taking place at the same time. The “expanded field of battle” allowed for everyone at the dojo to be represented in the collage.

I especially like the scene in panel 3 where one kendo-ka has fallen down and his fellow is popping him on the head from behind. It reminds me of a triptych I saw of people construction a building. There are plasters, carpenters, et cetera. And while most of them are working competently, there is a scene where one worker has bumped another, and the bumped man has dropped/spilled his load and has this startled look on his face. And I wondered if it was the custom in such "everyday living scenes" to always include some humor or something going (slightly) wrong.

[kendophx]

... I imagine they held that position longer than they wanted to.



I thought about that. It might be the explanation as to why the kendo-ka has the back foot planted.

But I was looking at an antique photography website and they said that by 1840, it only took a 1 minute exposure for a daguerreotype portrait. By 1850, the ambrotype took less time than that. {The original process was a 3 - 15 minute exposure.}

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bldaguerreotype.htm
http://www.dac.neu.edu/printmaking/glossary.htm

I think the photograph is of later rather than earlier photography as it does not have the black/white/grey/silver look that really early pictures have.

But what happened to get the photo scanned to post to e-budo, where Mr. Ryngen found it might have influenced its look.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Definitely not Tendo Ryu. From the shape of the "blade" and the overall length, I would guess Jikishinkage Ryu Naginata-jutsu.
Definitely Maniwa Nen Ryu!
:wink:

[Zaphiel]

cool.....
what is the naginata on this foto made of.....(just a question)

[Jakob Ryngen]

cool.....
what is the naginata on this foto made of.....
By tradition japanese wooden weapons are made of white oak (K, Friday, "Legacies of the sword") and I think the naginata on the photo is that too.

[Zaphiel]

even in training?
I thought they might be made out of bamboo.....just like in kendo

[R A Sosnowski]

even in training?
I thought they might be made out of bamboo.....just like in kendo

Currently there are two types of Naginata:

Shiai Naginata - Jp. "white oak" E-bu (shaft), 2-piece bamboo Ha-bu (simulating the Ha or cutting edge, and the Mune or back-of-the-blade), and leather caps on the Kissaki (tip of the blade) and Ishizuki (butt end of the E-bu); the Ha-bu is taped onto the E-bu and is periodically replaced;
Kata Naginata - completely made of Jp. "white oak;" official Atarashii Kata Naginata are plain; Tendo Ryu (a Koryu Naginata-jutsu) Naginata have a small leather tsuba glued in place between the blade-section and the shaft-section.


HTH.

[Jakob Ryngen]

I thought they might be made out of bamboo.....just like in kendo
Nope... bamboo naginata is post WWII. Before shiai was done with full oak naginata (sometimes strapped with leather).

[Zaphiel]

Currently there are two types of Naginata:

Shiai Naginata - Jp. "white oak" E-bu (shaft), 2-piece bamboo Ha-bu (simulating the Ha or cutting edge, and the Mune or back-of-the-blade), and leather caps on the Kissaki (tip of the blade) and Ishizuki (butt end of the E-bu); the Ha-bu is taped onto the E-bu and is periodically replaced;
Kata Naginata - completely made of Jp. "white oak;" official Atarashii Kata Naginata are plain; Tendo Ryu (a Koryu Naginata-jutsu) Naginata have a small leather tsuba glued in place between the blade-section and the shaft-section.

HTH.
so it's like in kendo.....train with bamboo...kata with oak.