What is Zanshin

[Matthew Lagden]

The more i learn, the more questions i have.

Can someone explain what Zanshin is?

[Jerry Wellbrock]

Matthew....I hope you recieve many replies to this as there are probably as many ways to describe zanshin as you will recieve replies....I think of zanshin as alertness or awareness....I always hear or read about maintaining zanshin after a strike which I agree is absolutely necessary but I believe zanshin should be present all the time....before...during and after any technique....it is that state of mind where you do not let your guard down so as not to be volunerable to either attack or counter attack....Zanshin should always be present in your life not just the dojo....it is outside the dojo also and may even be more important on the outside.....it is being aware of what is going on around you at all times.....How do you develope zanshin.....just work at it....concentrate and pay attention....don't let your guard down and don't let your opponent distract.....I know much easier said than done....but over the years it will get easier and easier......one of the ways to work on zanshin is the practice of the kendo no kata and the practice of iaido......just train and it will happen:p

[JSchmidt]

I'm not touching this one:D

Jakob

[kendo_chick]

I believe Zanshin is just a way of showing that you know you hit the target. It is a way to show your spirit and your intention. Basically, in a nice way, you are saying to the judges, "hey look at me, I know I got this point, you should give it to me". And more often then not, if you "sell" your point, it will be awarded.

[Charlie]

Okay, bear patiently with me. Ignore, for a moment, all New Age-type connotations in this explanation.

I believe a kenshi stores up energy, and expends energy on the attack.

Zanshin is the energy left over after you attack, energy that can be used to defend or, really, to make another attack.

Zanshin can be replenished by breathing and recentering. So when you fight you should be constantly expending and replenishing the energy.

You know, kinda like the "power bar" in a Street Fighter-type video game!

What is this "energy"? Is it physical or spiritual? Take your pick. You could think of it as chi, you could simply think of it as concentration, you could think of it as breath in your body combined with the will to use it.

That's how I think of zanshin. Like Jerry said, I hope this thread gets a lot of thoughtful answers.

[Hagakure]

Well, I believe that zanshin is essentialy a means of showing awareness, as Kendo stresses alertness and comitment. It is also a way of showing your conviction to strike (e.g Not hesitate) It is an expenditure of spirit in the form of an accurate and comitted strike.

[Matthew Lagden]

Thank you all - keep it coming - and that means you too jacob!

i begin to see what you mean - and can certainly see it in some of the better Kendoka at the Dojo.

It is part of what i started Kendo to develop as i am notoriously dozy, and am pretty sure i either as yet have no zanshin, or it is well buried.

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by kendo_chick
I believe Zanshin is just a way of showing that you know you hit the target. It is a way to show your spirit and your intention. Basically, in a nice way, you are saying to the judges, "hey look at me, I know I got this point, you should give it to me". And more often then not, if you "sell" your point, it will be awarded.


I'm going to assume this was humour on your part, given you described 'selling a shiai point to a shinpan' and nothing more.
:ponder:

Jerry's post was a pretty good one actually. Covered more or less what you want to know. The thing about 'maintaining' zanshin after a cut is a particularly important one. Too often people seem to confuse 'show' with 'maintain' in that they sort of tack some pretend zanshin onto the end of a cut to 'sell it to the shinpan'.
Zanshin should, as has been said, be always present - the fact that it is most often focused on post-impact is irrelevant unless zanshin was not present prior to an attack being made.
It's very (very) obvious when someone is 'tacking on' zanshin to the end of a cut as opposed to 'maintaining' it.

[Tato]

Ok, but for the sake of the beginers (like me), it's possible to developpe Zanshin trough special exercises, and if yes, wich kind?

I'm not sure that it's possible, but again, I'm just starting my travel.

Rei

[JSchmidt]

Not really, apart from always doing it like you mean it. Maintain the kiai, posture, etc, all the way through the cut and only stop once you have turned around and are facing the opponent.

Jakob

[mingshi]

I suppose the concept of Zanshin is demonstrated clearer in Kendo Kata. Watch and practice more.

[Jerry Wellbrock]

I don't know of specific exercises to develope zanshin but anything that will help you to focus and stay focused on your opponent whether in keiko or practicing kendo kata I think a starting point is your eyes....practice focusing your eyes with unwavering concentration on your opponent....stay centered....use your mind to focus your eyes.....as for trying to show that you got a point to the shimpan....this could actually be seen as a break in zanshin and result in not being awarded the point that was there:eek:

[Hagakure]

The only real exercise for zanshin, as well as many other things in Kendo, is partaking in Keiko itself. My sensei, when practicing one on one, will always be very careful of things associated with zanshin, especially kiai and posture.

I have to agree with Mingshi, Kendo no Kata puts heavy stress on zanshin, as it is all about forms and careful timing between you and your partner.

[Kendoboy]

I agree with minshi, zanshin is definetly best demonstrated in kata.

To me, zanshin is focused fighting spirit. In one practice when sensei jeff was doing kata (I forget the kata, which would have been helpful), he was stepping in to draw out an attack (I think) and he explained that when you step in, the opponent won't attack (be drawn into an attack) unless you make him FEEL threatened. That, to me, is zanshin, the beleif in what you are doing, and making an opponent feel, or see your focus, and commitment.

[alexpollijr]

> and he explained that when you step in, the opponent won't >attack (be drawn into an attack) unless you make him FEEL > >threatened.

That is called 'seme' or 'pressure'. In this case it'd be sen-sen-no-sen I believe.

Zanshin is the alertness that follows the strike, in my opinion. Other might have more spiritual interpretations.

Alex Polli

[kendo_chick]

Originally posted by Ares2907



I'm going to assume this was humour on your part, given you described 'selling a shiai point to a shinpan' and nothing more.
:ponder:

Actually it was sort of humour. But think about it. If you are doing your zanshin properly, or as our instructor calls it "with feeling" and intention, then a judge will see it as an "intended" hit. A lot of beginners tend to just hit wherever and hope that it lands on a target. You have to be aware that you are hitting a target and not just bashing. If you are not doing zanshin, you do not believe (have confidence) that you have made a hit.

I'm not, I repeat, I am NOT suggesting that the only reason you do zanshin is to get a point, what I am saying is that Zanshin is a way of showing intention.

[Kendoboy]

So pressure is something else entirely. Just goes to show what I don't know. At least I've learned something new.




(by the way, I wasn't told that was zanshin, I arrived at that conclusion on my own)

[stakenaka]

Zanshin, is basically making sure the opponent is dead or dying. :)
Seriously, zanshin was developed to make sure that you were aware that the opponent was dead.

[Kuri]

Originally posted by stakenaka
Zanshin, is basically making sure the opponent is dead or dying. :)
Seriously, zanshin was developed to make sure that you were aware that the opponent was dead.

And just in case they were still kicking (so to speak) and could gather enough energy for that final cut before they die, you could take decissive action and finsh them off.

[ben]

The image that was given to me to "explain" zanshin was to liken your energy to a full bucket of water. In attacking you throw all the water out of the bucket, not trying to save anything for later. Even so, there will always be a few drops left in the bucket. Hmm... now that I write it down, it doesn't seem like such a good metaphor.

Trevor Leggett ("Zen and the Ways" described it well in broader philosophical terms:

"In a sense the isshin ("one heart/mind/consciousness") is the ji or particular technique, and the zanshin ("remaining heart/mind/consciousness") is the ri or universal principle which manifests in particular situations but is not exhausted in them.

"Isshin is the unity of the wave, zanshin is the unity of the water. Isshin defeats an opponent in a time and place by a technique. Zanshin is awareness of the whole process of defeating opponents..."

b

[olaf]

Originally posted by stakenaka
Zanshin, is basically making sure the opponent is dead or dying. :)
Seriously, zanshin was developed to make sure that you were aware that the opponent was dead.

That's probably the easiest and most practical way to think of it. To me, zanshin reflects the degree of resolve in your attack, almost like a post-strike kiai. Your zanshin projects the image that you knew what you were striking, you were intent on carrying out the strike/kill, and you are confident that you succeeded. You've won, and you want the rest of the world to know it. :)

[kendo_chick]

I completely agree with Olaf on this one! That's what I was trying to say in an earlier post but it came out wrong.

[kendokamax]

zanshin is

screaming super loud and moving very fast!

YA that's right

[Ares2907]

that'd be crazy-kendo zanshin, I'm guessing.
:p

[kendokamax]

THAT'S RIGHT!

lol I was kidding of course

I think zanshin is there just to show off you know what the hell you are doing during keiko. Kendo is like music, zanshin is the end of the "melody"! (I didn't really think hard about that one)

well zanshin is the reason why I do and love kendo. that and the snap sound of the shinai hiting the pading of the men.

So beautiful


Happy kendo!

[Sup]

zanshin..
. I meant the strike
. there's alot more where it came from
. Im still ready as ever

[supernils]

As ZNKR defines it
"The state of alertness, both mental and physical, against the opponents counterattack"

[hamish]

A World War 2 fighter pilot in his memoirs referred to the importance of 'situational awareness' ie. zanshin, as being one of the factors that divided the more succesful pilots and those that got shot down early. (Alex might post something on this as he's done more research into it than I)

That would include not only following through on a target to ensure that they were out of play, but also watching around you for the next attack at the same time.

The best way to train to get better is to maintain concentration and focus from the first rei to the last, not just when you're facing your opponent.

Hamish

[JSchmidt]

Ah, I disagree on the Situational Awareness bit...it's a completly different kettle of fish.
The 'official' definition on SA (For aviation purposes) is something like : "Situational Awareness is gathering information, analyzing it and using it to plan ahead".
It might be applied in terms of battlefield tactics, but in one on one confrontation it got limited similarities.

Jakob
(Pilot and WW2 aviation nut)

[Confound]

In my understanding, zansshin is an expression of a kendouka's will. The momentum of your strike is expressed by the zansshin. One of my senseis says that zansshin is the reification of your desire to strike down your opponent, but he's often criticizedf or acting like he wants to kill his opponents. (he's really a dangerous guy in a serious shiai. I'd cite him as evidence that kendou is perfectly suited for street fighting.) If the strength of your arm (metaphorcally speaking) is shown in executing the waza, then your will is expressed in the zasshin.

Ina more practical sense, the follow through of the strike confirms that you have good form, that you're able to do something other than whap people with sticks. Call it a measure of civility, albeit a loud and somewhat ridiculous looking one.

c

[kanyil]

I've heard Zanshin is also the idea of not letting your guard down after a strike. (i.e. be prepared to act instantly if the enemy is not completely dead)

[Kirin]

In more broad view of zanshin, it can be :
-folding hakama after class
-sanding and oiling shinai
-straightning shoes out side dojo entrance ......etc

also it can be used in daily life ...such as cleaning up your desk before leaving office.

I think Zanshin is something you prepare (mentaly & phisically) for your next action.

[Haowen]

I've heard Zanshin is also the idea of not letting your guard down after a strike. (i.e. be prepared to act instantly if the enemy is not completely dead)

Gotta hate those not-completely-dead enemies... always wanting to eat your brains and other such rudeness. :D

[dotnet]

That would include not only following through on a target to ensure that they were out of play, but also watching around you for the next attack at the same time.

The best way to train to get better is to maintain concentration and focus from the first rei to the last, not just when you're facing your opponent.


I very much support this statement but I would incorporate kirins broader concept of zanshin. It starts before rei and doesn't end. It is a never ending awareness. Your mind should not wander off and be thinking about something else, something unimportant, something at all. In this way you cannot be surprised. You don't let your heart/mind move you. You don't show emotions. You do not panic, you don't show joy (I finally hit this men !), you simply pay attention. You are aware of the situation. Nothing more, nothing less.

IMHO the idea of 'trying to show the referee that one has scored on ippon' and even concentrating on this defeats the idea of paying attention or awareness. Your concentration is diverted to the wrong object or subject (i.e. referee/umpire).

Using the previously mentioned fighter pilot example: You do not radio your successful interception of a hostile plane to your home base, while there are still enemies around.

Since I am not as affluent, I would like to cite two authors that - I believe - were able to find a fitting description. I actually like the Shissai Chozan defintion very much:


by John J. Donohue:

The dojo is not just a training hall but a place where a certain awareness of the possibility of serious combat must constantly be maintained. This acute awareness of one's surroundings and the potential for danger is known as zanshin. Zanshin is the flip side of single-minded devotion to technique. A student of kendo must learn not to focus exclusively on his actions but rather to be attentive and receptive to all activities surrounding him.

This seems contradictory, but both the ideas of focusing entirely on technique and of maintaining zanshin have to do with the transcending of subject-object distinctions through martial training. Unity with the Void, to use Musashi's (the famous swordsman) idiom, results in the execution of technique without any self-conscious awareness of doing so.



The following definition is from the Tengu-geijutsu-ron (Zen in the art of swordsmanship) and very interesting. Unfortunatly I only have a German version. But maybe I-Not or someone else has the English translation and could post it here.



Einer fragte:" In vielen Schulen gibt es den Begriff des zanshin. Ich bin mir darüber nicht klar. Was bedeutet dieses zanshin?"

Er antwortete:" Es bedeutet nichts weiter, als daß man sich nicht mehr von den Dingen hinreißen läßt und das Herz unbewegt ist. Wenn das Herz unbewegt ist, ist die Reaktion klar. In den Dingen des täglichen Lebens ist es genauso. Ginge es auch, wie man sagt, mit einem Satz bis auf den Grund der Hölle, das Ich bliebe das ursprüngliche Ich. Man bliebe vorn und hinten und rechts und links ungehindert und frei. Man ist mit dem Herzen dabei und macht keine Vorbehalte. Doch wenn man im Herzen Vorbehalte macht, geht auch das Denken verschiedene Wege. Es bedeutet nichts anderes als dass das Herz nicht klar ist und man nicht aus ganzem Herzen handelt; deshalb haut und sticht man blind drauflos. Die Klarheit aber erwächst aus der Unbewegtheit des Herzens, und nur dann sind Hiebe und Stiche gezielt und treffsicher. All diese Dinge sind schwer in Worte zu fassen. Doch wenn man sie nicht richtig versteht, ist das in hohem Maße schädlich. [...]"

<i>Quelle: Die Kunst der Bergdämonen. Das Tengu-geijutsu-ron des Shissai Chozan. Zen-Lehre und Konfuzianismus in der japanischen Schwertkunst. Ins Deutsche übersetzt von Reinhard Kammer, O.W. Barth Verlag, 1969 (S.106).</i>



While reading this again, I realise how far my action are away from my own defintion of proper zanshin. But it is never too late to work hard on this :)

Cheers,
dotnet

[Kozushi]

Real Zanshin is a state of mind where you are ready to react right away to kill again immediately after having killed the first enemy.
The idea of an 'outward' demonstration of Zanshin as in Kendo, where we have to do the little 'Zanshin dance', is ridiculous, and the samurai would have laughed at it.
In modern Kendo competitions, there is more attention payed to stopping the opponent from carrying through with the Zanshin dance after he has hit than stopping his hits in the first place! How suicidal!
With the modern interpretation of Zanshin, which interpretation by the way no samurai ever had, Kendo's value as a combat art has gone down the toilet.

[not-I]

The following definition is from the Tengu-geijutsu-ron (Zen in the art of swordsmanship) and very interesting. Unfortunatly I only have a German version. But maybe I-Not or someone else has the English translation and could post it here. I also only have it in German. But at least one English translation seems to be still available: The Way of the Sword: The Tengu-Geijutsu-Ron of Chozan Shissai. Here's my go at a loose translation of the German translation of the Japanese. I believe the "he" in the quote is a tengu talking, so everyone listen up!:wink:


Someone asked: “In many schools there is the concept of zanshin, which I am unsure about. What does this zanshin mean?”

He answered: “It simply means that one is longer swayed by things and the heart/mind (shin) is unmoved. When the mind is still, the reaction is clear. It is the same in everyday life. Even if one were to go, as they say, to the depths of hell, the self would remain the original Self. One would stay unhindered and free, to the front and back, to the left and right. [Zanshin] is to be present with the mind and make no reservations. If one makes reservations in the mind, thought splits in separate directions. This simply means that the mind is not clear and one is not acting with the whole heart, like when one blindly swings and stabs away. But clarity springs from the stillness of the mind, and only then are strikes and stabs accurate and unerring. All these things are difficult to capture in words. But if you don’t understand them, that is harmful to a high degree.

[dotnet]

Thank you very much not-I ! You saved my day ! :smiley:

Enjoy your weekend.

Cheers,
dotnet

[Twobitmage]

zanshin..
. I meant the strike
. there's alot more where it came from
. Im still ready as ever

I like this explantion the best out of the ones here. Simple and to the point

[Budokan]

I very much support this statement but I would incorporate kirins broader concept of zanshin. It starts before rei and doesn't end. It is a never ending awareness. Your mind should not wander off and be thinking about something else, something unimportant, something at all. In this way you cannot be surprised. You don't let your heart/mind move you. You don't show emotions. You do not panic, you don't show joy (I finally hit this men !), you simply pay attention. You are aware of the situation. Nothing more, nothing less.

IMHO the idea of 'trying to show the referee that one has scored on ippon' and even concentrating on this defeats the idea of paying attention or awareness. Your concentration is diverted to the wrong object or subject (i.e. referee/umpire).

Using the previously mentioned fighter pilot example: You do not radio your successful interception of a hostile plane to your home base, while there are still enemies around.

Since I am not as affluent, I would like to cite two authors that - I believe - were able to find a fitting description. I actually like the Shissai Chozan defintion very much:




The following definition is from the Tengu-geijutsu-ron (Zen in the art of swordsmanship) and very interesting. Unfortunatly I only have a German version. But maybe I-Not or someone else has the English translation and could post it here.




While reading this again, I realise how far my action are away from my own defintion of proper zanshin. But it is never too late to work hard on this :)

Cheers,
dotnet
I agrre completely with the way john donohue said it! that explains perfectly.

[JByrd]

I very much support this statement but I would incorporate kirins broader concept of zanshin. It starts before rei and doesn't end. It is a never ending awareness.
Right on.

When I introduce the concept of zanshin to beginners, I talk about teen slasher movies, and how the heroine shoots or otherwise disables the killer, and then prompty drops her weapon and turns her back on him. Of course everyone but the heroine knows the killer is not really dead yet, but is about to jump up and attack again. If she showed zanshin, I tell beginners, she'd still have that killer in her sights, ready to pump more bullets in him if he so much as twitched an eyebrow.

Then I explain about how in Kendo we gather and focus our attention in preparation for an attack. Our attention tends to peak in intensity just before we attack, and the most natural thing after peaking is to have one's attention rapidly drop back down to a "normal" level. Of course we are in easy range for a counterattack in the seconds immediately following an attack, and even a fatally wounded enemy could use his last breath to take us with him if we aren't careful. Caution dictates that our high level of attention on the opponent must be preserved at least until we get to a safe distance.

From the standpoint of self improvement, the ultimate goal is to make the attention peak higher and sustain it longer. Eventually our "normal" mental focus rises to a level we once considered to be our peak. In my opinion, learning to keep one's attention at a high level for a long period of time is one of the most important benefits of Kendo practice.

To me, zanshin implies that one's mind is not turned inward on oneself, but is focused outward on the opponent. Sometimes when I see people trying to "sell" a hit with "zanshin" it looks self-conscious to me, as if their mind is not really on the opponent, but on themselves or on the judges... to me that is not true zanshin.

I also think zanshin is linked to fudoshin in the sense that one's mind must not stop and dwell on any event that has already slipped into the past. To show zanshin the mind must flow forward smoothly as time unfolds, processing the very latest information on the opponent's disposition.

[Kozushi]

Do any of you think that modern sport Kendo 'zanshin' has anything to do with real zanshin???

[yamaguchi]

Yes I think it is still necessary. And no different that long time ago and now.

Zanshin has very deep and deep meaning. I think it is very hard to understand.

Also I do not expect everybody to understand right now.

For Kids I let them know that Zanshin as following.

When one killed opponents, one thinks one finish, but how one know opponents get kill. So Turn around and make sure. The opponents might still alive and try to kill you.

For adult and experienced Ken-shi, or one who is willing to learn more.

Zanshin is like following. When one try to drink a cup of water, and try to finish whole thing, there are always a little bit of left over. That a little bit of water in a cup is Zanshin. But one is not meant to leave a little water in a cup before drink.

[ben]

Do any of you think that modern sport Kendo 'zanshin' has anything to do with real zanshin???

The fact that you split zanshin into an opposing "sport" vs "real" dichotomy shows you are still confused about zanshin. I think you are mistaking "kime" (appeal?) with zanshin. As Kirin said, zanshin is folding your hakama.

b

[Kozushi]

Competitors today don't try to block the opponent's hits: all they try to do is to block the opponent's 'zanshin'-follow through; they just block his body as he tries to rush past. This is quite ridiculous! What kind of 'samurai' warrior art is this???

[nalogg]

One of my instructors described zanshin as "follow through"

follow through of spirit sword and body....

Continuing the forward motion with your sword and body, but also keeping awareness by turning around after you move past, like in a big men or something.

That's how he described it and "every movement you start in kendo you have to finish"

[not-I]

When I introduce the concept of zanshin to beginners, I talk about teen slasher movies [...]That's funny. One of our senior sempai uses Columbo as an example, i.e. his famous last question just when the suspect thinks the questioning has ended. Inspector Columbo manifests zanshin, the suspect does not.

As many have said in this thread, it seems zanshin has different levels, from simple "following through" after a strike, to general mindfulness in all situations. So what's this mindfulness all about? In this context, allow me to site an often-quoted anecdote:



One day a man of the people said to the Zen master Ikkyu Sojun:"Master, will you please write for me some maxims of the highest wisdom?"


Ikkyu immediately took his brush and wrote the word "Attention."

"Is that all?" asked the man. "Will you not add something more?"

Ikkyu then wrote twice running: "Attention. Attention."

Well," remarked the man rather irritably,"I really don't see much depth or subtlety in what you have just written."

Then Ikkyu wrote the same word three times running: "Attention. Attention. Attention."

Half angered, the man declared: "What does that word attention mean anyway?"

And Ikkyu answered, gently: "Attention means attention."


p.s. i've often wondered which kanji Ikkyu actually wrote. i suspect it's this one: ˆÓ perhaps someone knows for sure.

[akahige]

Here is how the All US Kendo Federation (http://www.auskf.info) describes zanshin:

Zanshin, what is zanshin? The typical answer given is "remaining spirit". This is correct, but there are more meanings and feeling to zanshin than the simple definition implies. It is very simple. However simple does not necessarily mean easy. It is a concept unique to martial arts and it is to the kanji that we must look for further clarification.

The kanji "zan" and "shin" can be read two ways. Kokoro-Wo-Nokosu which means "I consciously do the action of getting my spirit to remain" and Kokoro-Ga-Nokoru which means "My spirit remains unconsciously, spontaneously."

The first definition is appropriate to the beginning Kenshi and the latter to the practiced Kenshi. In effect, it means that if you must think about it, it is too late. The action is always slowed by the thought. If you think about zanshin preceding the cut, the cut will not be good. If you think about zanshin after the cut, an unexpected attack can occur in the split second that your are thinking of keeping your pressure.

Application of the principle of zanshin is most easily exemplified in the Nihon Kendo Kata. In all ten kata the zanshin begins immediately after the cut and continues until both the uchitachi and shitachi returns to chudan-no-kamae. This is stated specifically on ippon-me and nihon-me in Takano Sasaburo's book on Kendo. " Immediately after the cut, if there's any movements, my zanshin says I am ready to strike at any moment, until we both return to chudan."

Therefore, zanshin does not mean only to take the position of jodan-no-kamae after the cut, as in ippon-me, but it is the spirit of zanshin which must be present immediately after such a cut.

Then how can zanshin be identified in shinai Kendo? Does anyone in shinai Kendo normally take or display the stance zanshin emphasizes in the Nihon Kendo Kata? Obviously the answer will be no. It is spiritual awareness that is important, not the final stance, Kokoro-Ga-Nokoru, a naturalness. Zanshin thus means that the Kenshi is always prepared, even when exhausted, even when the match is over, the spirit remains.

[Hai_hai]

Do any of you think that modern sport Kendo 'zanshin' has anything to do with real zanshin???
It's right below your zanknee

[fe-taru tora]

Okay, bear patiently with me. Ignore, for a moment, all New Age-type connotations in this explanation.

I believe a kenshi stores up energy, and expends energy on the attack.

Zanshin is the energy left over after you attack, energy that can be used to defend or, really, to make another attack.

Zanshin can be replenished by breathing and recentering. So when you fight you should be constantly expending and replenishing the energy.

You know, kinda like the "power bar" in a Street Fighter-type video game!

What is this "energy"? Is it physical or spiritual? Take your pick. You could think of it as chi, you could simply think of it as concentration, you could think of it as breath in your body combined with the will to use it.

That's how I think of zanshin. Like Jerry said, I hope this thread gets a lot of thoughtful answers.


I totally argee !!!!!

[Tholon]

Stupid question perhaps, but is there a difference in Zanshin if you have done a successfull attack or not?

[Karaken]

Stupid question perhaps, but is there a difference in Zanshin if you have done a successfull attack or not?
Thers is no different in Zanshin whether you had a successful one or not because you should not care whether you had a good one or not. Th essence of zanshin, imho, is to treat the conclusion of your action as a beginning of another action ( offense, defense or seme ) not as an ending of your action.

A good example of zanshin ( or lack there of ) is a baseball player who had a nice double reached a second base and steps away an inch from the bag and gets tagged out. He thought the play ended and relaxed but the second baseman did not conclude the play and continue his pursuit. One didn't have zanshin and the other one did.. If you watch baseball, you see good examples of zashin very frequently. It's referred to as "Complete the play - it separates average player from the top players " and it's easy enough to understand what zanshin means.. One more example is outfielder who caught a homerun but fail to throw out a runner scoring from the second base. Yes, even after successsful action, you can achieve more by threating it as a mere beginning of the next move..

[fe-taru tora]

Thers is no different in Zanshin whether you had a successful one or not because you should not care whether you had a good one or not. Th essence of zanshin, imho, is to treat the conclusion of your action as a beginning of another action ( offense, defense or seme ) not as an ending of your action.

A good example of zanshin ( or lack there of ) is a baseball player who had a nice double reached a second base and steps away an inch from the bag and gets tagged out. He thought the play ended and relaxed but the second baseman did not conclude the play and continue his pursuit. One didn't have zanshin and the other one did.. If you watch baseball, you see good examples of zashin very frequently. It's referred to as "Complete the play - it separates average player from the top players " and it's easy enough to understand what zanshin means.. One more example is outfielder who caught a homerun but fail to throw out a runner scoring from the second base. Yes, even after successsful action, you can achieve more by threating it as a mere beginning of the next move..



WOW that is the best example I have ever seen, thank you !

[Karaken]

WOW that is the best example I have ever seen, thank you !
You're welcome sharp shooter. Hope the example is as vivid to outside US as in US - well I know it's big in Asia - where else in the world is crazy about baseball?

[Tholon]

A good example. Although baseball isn't that big i Sweden. We have a similar sports called Brännboll.

Anyway, if I understood correctly, Zanshin is actually more important if you don't do a successfull attack. Which in my case happens all to often...

[Future Head]

A good example of zanshin ( or lack there of ) is a baseball player who had a nice double reached a second base and steps away an inch from the bag and gets tagged out. He thought the play ended and relaxed but the second baseman did not conclude the play and continue his pursuit. One didn't have zanshin and the other one did.. If you watch baseball, you see good examples of zashin very frequently. It's referred to as "Complete the play - it separates average player from the top players " and it's easy enough to understand what zanshin means.. One more example is outfielder who caught a homerun but fail to throw out a runner scoring from the second base. Yes, even after successsful action, you can achieve more by threating it as a mere beginning of the next move..

I'd just like to echo fe-taru tora's sentiments. That explained the concept perfectly.

[not-I]

I'd just like to echo fe-taru tora's sentiments. That explained the concept perfectly.
It is a nice example, yet it is doubtful that even a hachidan would claim to understand zanshin "perfectly."

Zanshin is a only a name for a phenomenon that we will all understand from our respective levels along the way, and understand better when experience and intuition, rather than just reason are our guides.

[fe-taru tora]

one thing I began to think about when I read that explaination is the when you hit the ball you don't tell your brain, ok swing really hard but not too hard up and too the left, your brain just uses your hande eye cordination if you think about it by the time your done thinking the ball is already in the catchers mitt, or in kendo your ears ring ....lol

[fe-taru tora]

Yes I think it is still necessary. And no different that long time ago and now.

Zanshin has very deep and deep meaning. I think it is very hard to understand.

Also I do not expect everybody to understand right now.

For Kids I let them know that Zanshin as following.

When one killed opponents, one thinks one finish, but how one know opponents get kill. So Turn around and make sure. The opponents might still alive and try to kill you.

For adult and experienced Ken-shi, or one who is willing to learn more.

Zanshin is like following. When one try to drink a cup of water, and try to finish whole thing, there are always a little bit of left over. That a little bit of water in a cup is Zanshin. But one is not meant to leave a little water in a cup before drink.

I kind of understand what you are saying but could you explain it just a little more just the part about we are not supposed to leave the water in the cup before drinking.

[Karaken]

It is a nice example, yet it is doubtful that even a hachidan would claim to understand zanshin "perfectly."

Zanshin is a only a name for a phenomenon that we will all understand from our respective levels along the way, and understand better when experience and intuition, rather than just reason are our guides.Exactly.. If you read Go-Rin-No-Sho now it'll be quite different than when you read it for the first time. It'll be much different book when you get to it next time. Of course there is no perfection. Only the pursuit of it. But we all need to start somewhere so I tried to give it a shot.

[Karaken]

one thing I began to think about when I read that explaination is the when you hit the ball you don't tell your brain, ok swing really hard but not too hard up and too the left, your brain just uses your hande eye cordination if you think about it by the time your done thinking the ball is already in the catchers mitt, or in kendo your ears ring ....lolNow you're getting into the realm of Fudoshin - Another mysterious concept. We had a long discussion already in the past - search the forum for it, you won't regret :-)

[fe-taru tora]

"realm of Fudoshi" wow this is getting to be alot of fun. I would like to be a good opponent one day and I could use all the practice and info i can get. A good book that I have read 2 time so far is "complete Kendo" byJohn Donohue, very good book I have read 5 others realted to samurai and other aspects about getting to know mushin and kai along with buddist and zen influence. It has been a fun information roller coaster.

[Future Head]

It is a nice example, yet it is doubtful that even a hachidan would claim to understand zanshin "perfectly."

Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I didn't say I understood the concept perfectly. While admittedly this is also a tall order, I said I thought the example was perfect. The two ideas seem more or less parallel, and understanding what either one of them is takes more thought and experience than knowing what one is expected to do physically to fulfill them. At any rate, the example was excellent. ;)

[yamaguchi]

So
About that part. "you are not try to leave the water in a cup and so on part right?"

There are two way to leave water in the cup.

One, you try to drink up whole water in the cup, there will be a little bit of water left.....This is zanshin.

Two, one try to intentionally leave a little bit of water in the cup , but you pretend like you try to drink up the whole water......This is not zanshin.

I can not break down more than this. Try to think about this during Kendo Practice. Not in Shiai( just in case)
Sorry and Please Excuse my bad English.
Yamaguchi

[Lloromannic]

When I was younger some of my teachers at school made us do a sheet explaining what we had studied. I always tried to summarize the information and to present it in a clear way with maybe some diagrams. I always got (get) good grades but there was a couple of girls in my class who would give as little information as possible while still getting a good grade and then filling the page with drawings and bright sparkly colours. Some teachers saw through this and gave them an average grade. Other teachers fell for it and gave them top marks without reading it.
Perhaps this was another form of false zanshin.

[Future Head]

I'd just like to note that I'm digging for fire.

[Lloromannic]

I'd just like to note that I'm digging for fire.
Nice song isn't it?

[fe-taru tora]

So
About that part. "you are not try to leave the water in a cup and so on part right?"

There are two way to leave water in the cup.

One, you try to drink up whole water in the cup, there will be a little bit of water left.....This is zanshin.

Two, one try to intentionally leave a little bit of water in the cup , but you pretend like you try to drink up the whole water......This is not zanshin.

I can not break down more than this. Try to think about this during Kendo Practice. Not in Shiai( just in case)
Sorry and Please Excuse my bad English.
Yamaguchi
thank you, your english is fine, so if I understand correctly I should never hold anything back thinking that I can use it later, like form, kai and puity of my cut ?

[Hai_hai]

thank you, your english is fine, so if I understand correctly I should never hold anything back thinking that I can use it later, like form, kai and puity of my cut ?
His English sucks, but I could understand it. Just kidding. I love you yamaguchi.

[BravoOne]

Hi, could anyone show me how zanshin is written in kanji or chinese character?

thanks

[Nanbanjin]

Hi, could anyone show me how zanshin is written in kanji or chinese character?

thanks

残心　

残　=　ZAN
心　=　SHIN

[Haowen]

thank you, your english is fine, so if I understand correctly I should never hold anything back thinking that I can use it later, like form, kai and puity of my cut ?

I can understand Yamaguchi-sensei perfectly. Thank you Yamaguchi-sensei for the great example. Let me see if I understood correctly.

I believe what he is referring to is, zanshin is a state of mind, not a set of actions. So, for example, beginners are taught that turning around after following through an attack is an expression of zanshin. So they may copy the action but while they are doing it they could be thinking about other things like "oh I should have used more tenouchi". So while they are performing the zanshin action (leaving water in the cup), there is no zanshin. When you try to drink all the water, there is always a little left in the cup. There is no avoiding it. So, when you make a fully committed attack with zanshin, you will always be aware of your opponent even after your attack and you will react accordingly. It is a natural consequence of your committed focus before, during, and after the attack. To deliberately try to "show" zanshin is false zanshin.

[Karaken]

I can understand Yamaguchi-sensei perfectly. Thank you Yamaguchi-sensei for the great example. Let me see if I understood correctly.

I believe what he is referring to is, zanshin is a state of mind, not a set of actions. So, for example, beginners are taught that turning around after following through an attack is an expression of zanshin. So they may copy the action but while they are doing it they could be thinking about other things like "oh I should have used more tenouchi". So while they are performing the zanshin action (leaving water in the cup), there is no zanshin. When you try to drink all the water, there is always a little left in the cup. There is no avoiding it. So, when you make a fully committed attack with zanshin, you will always be aware of your opponent even after your attack and you will react accordingly. It is a natural consequence of your committed focus before, during, and after the attack. To deliberately try to "show" zanshin is false zanshin.
A concept of training or fighting to the total exhaustion without reservation, I think, is a different concept from Zanshin. At the moment, I can't think of it but I'm sure smart people on this forum will come up with it quickly.
It's easier to compare it to the well than a cup of water - You can empty the well and more water will come out. If you spare some water, it won't come out as much. So do not reserve any, go for it and go for it with everything you have. When you reach the point where you don't think you can move anymore - well that's when some mysterious power kick in - like a second wind - but if you don't cross that point, you'll never know it exists..

[yamaguchi]

I think people in this thread get a good idea of Zanshin. People in this thread might feels that it is still fuzzy, and it is hard to define what is Zanshin clearly. I am also not sure that I understand perfectly either.

But I think that is Kendo.

When I write any thread, I always think what my Shisho would told me before. Try to remind myself. The time my Shisho told me, I was confused, but time go by, it would start to make sense to me. But same time, the other issue comes up.

Some Kendoka might have been told that his or her Kendo changed. Kamae will change, Maai change, Kiai Change and so on.

Some Kendoka might have to quit Kendo for a while, and his or her Kendo totally change when he or she come back to play. Some of them experience that big life event on his or her life, and his or her Kendo change.



Mental mature ness has big influences on his or her Kendo. This is Kendo.

I think.



I am still learning and I am still baby walk. Until nature finish my life, I will try to find out what is Kendo.:)



Ps. My Cat is trying to teach me Kendo a lot recently.

Excuse my poor English.

Yamaguchi.

[Nanbanjin]

I think people in this thread get a good idea of Zanshin. People in this thread might feels that it is still fuzzy, and it is hard to define what is Zanshin clearly. I am also not sure that I understand perfectly either.

But I think that is Kendo.

When I write any thread, I always think what my Shisho would told me before. Try to remind myself. The time my Shisho told me, I was confused, but time go by, it would start to make sense to me. But same time, the other issue comes up.

Some Kendoka might have been told that his or her Kendo changed. Kamae will change, Maai change, Kiai Change and so on.

Some Kendoka might have to quit Kendo for a while, and his or her Kendo totally change when he or she come back to play. Some of them experience that big life event on his or her life, and his or her Kendo change.



Mental mature ness has big influences on his or her Kendo. This is Kendo.

I think.



I am still learning and I am still baby walk. Until nature finish my life, I will try to find out what is Kendo.:)



Ps. My Cat is trying to teach me Kendo a lot recently.

Excuse my poor English.

Yamaguchi.

Thank you Yamaguchi-san

At the club I first trained with in Japan we had the characters "Kanshin" written on our men towel on a framed sample of calligraphy on the wall. My sensei also gave me some calligraphy of the same characters. The characters were

観心

Do you have any idea what this means?

Peter

[Hisham]

Ok, but for the sake of the beginers (like me), it's possible to developpe Zanshin trough special exercises, and if yes, wich kind?

I'm not sure that it's possible, but again, I'm just starting my travel.

Rei
Asside keiko, i would say seiza meditation helps a lot with the Zanshin ,by trying to keep the right body posture ,controling your breathing and making the effort to be aware of what s going on inside and outside of yourself and last but not least push the time limit each time because it s not a 10 minutes seiza that ll make your Zanshin expand.:)

[DCPan]

Now you're getting into the realm of Fudoshin - Another mysterious concept. :-)

Hmm...sounds more like heijoshin to me.... :wink:

[crabbi]

How does Zanshin relate to the Zen concept of "Mushin no Shin" - The Mind of No-Mind.

Are they synonymous or is one a subset of the other?

crabbi

[crabbi]

I seem to have a knack for killing threads dead... is there a Kendo term for this?

[crabbi]

.... another one bites the dust....!

[Hisham]

How does Zanshin relate to the Zen concept of "Mushin no Shin" - The Mind of No-Mind.

Are they synonymous or is one a subset of the other?

crabbi

There is definitely a relation between the two.I think that the monk Takuan spoke of that in one of his writings to Yagyu Munenori, how to quite the mind and by that raising the spirit s alertness which is part of Zanshin.

[crabbi]

Asside keiko, i would say seiza meditation helps a lot with the Zanshin ,by trying to keep the right body posture ,controling your breathing and making the effort to be aware of what s going on inside and outside of yourself and last but not least push the time limit each time because it s not a 10 minutes seiza that ll make your Zanshin expand.:)
Interesting observation... So in a way, as well as being complementary to Mushin No Shin.... Zanshin is, at the same time, almost opposite...? Perhaps they are two different sides of the same coin?

When I have practiced mediatation in previous dojo, there is this fine balance between trying to be aware of nothing and yet constantly being aware that you are trying to do this... Do you find this internal phenomena a struggle or a focus for meditation? Or does no-one else feel this way?

crabbi

[Matlock]

As ZNKR defines it
"The state of alertness, both mental and physical, against the opponents counterattack"The AUSKF defines Zanshin on its Iaido link as such: "Zan-shin: The body posture and state of mind in which even after striking, one is alert and ready to respond instantly to any counterattack by the opponent. Zanshin is the state in which, after striking with full power and without hesitation, one faces the opponent with full spirit and with the ability to respond naturally." I think that this definition is pretty nice.

[Vortex]

I suppose the concept of Zanshin is demonstrated clearer in Kendo Kata. Watch and practice more.

Zanshin, is basically making sure the opponent is dead or dying. :)
Seriously, zanshin was developed to make sure that you were aware that the opponent was dead.
And just in case they were still kicking (so to speak) and could gather enough energy for that final cut before they die, you could take decissive action and finsh them off.
I agree with both mingshi and stakenaka here. Kata teaches it well and the basis for it comes from making sure your opponent has a mortal wound or if not you make sure of it with your next strike. Just as other have said above and before. But then again, thats just my opinion...

[Hisham]

Do you find this internal phenomena a struggle or a focus for meditation? Or does no-one else feel this way?

crabbi

I think it s both ,let me put it this way ,if we take the gaze for instance which we also train by meditating ,we're told to focus on an imaginary point,at the same time we should be able to notice everything that can be seen by our eyes without moving them ,focusing on the whole picture without leaving the details (the leaf and tree example by Takuan or the looking at a far mountain concept by Musashi).Internalize the above ,of course it's a lifetime endeavour :) and you'll have yourself a spirit capable of light speed reaction.The goal is to adapt to any kind of situation as quickly as possible,nobody can do that without seeing the micro and macro sides of things.IMHO when it comes to the spirit we should try to explore and feel while meditating and have that same mindset as we're training and in life in general.
Hope i didn't slip out of subject in what i typed :D
cheers

[dr-spiff]

Zanshin is not something reserved for Kendo.

I remember hearing it in daily conversation while growing up in Hong kong.

Literally, in chinese Zan (or Zhang rather) is a concatenation of the symbol for a bow (as in bow and arrow) with the symbol for grow. Ie Stretch.
For example Zhangkai means Open.

Xin means heart, or mind depending on how you pronounce it.

So think of it as stretch your heart/mind.

Or as Obi-Wan said to Luke: "Stretch out with your feelings Luke"

[El Gringo]

There is definitely a relation between the two.I think that the monk Takuan spoke of that in one of his writings to Yagyu Munenori, how to quite the mind and by that raising the spirit s alertness which is part of Zanshin.I agree with this but would like to add a little.

I was reading 'the unfettered mind' yesterday and was very interested in the concept of a state of no-mind. I thought I understood a little, however as I was driving into work this morning at one point instead of just normally changing up the gears after being stationary I actually thought about it. This caused more problems than you might think, I fumbled around for a bit and finally found the right gear.

This got me thinking about the concept of no-mind and how it works here; while driving I normally have a state of no-mind and all the skills come naturally (I still have full concentration on the road but dont have to think about it) as soon as I let my mind stop at changing gears the whole process of driving fell apart.

What I am trying to say, is that we need to strive for this kind of state while doing kendo, and do it without thinking so to speak. I belive that if you get to this position ,which may be impossible, then after the strike zanshin will follow naturally.

Hope this makes sense as its hard to get the point across in words.

[Hisham]

Hope this makes sense as its hard to get the point across in words.
Indeed ,it'll only make sense with many years of regular training .

The situation you had while driving your car is a good example.
IMHO it's all about making the waza we learn into reflexes which would only happen as i said before, with many years of regular practice.i think that's the first stage of maturity for a kenshi or a martial artist in general, in other words just the beguining of the journey :)