aikido vs naginata

[alepto]

Hello
Next weekend we have a seminar between the local naginata club and one of the local aiki clubs. Apparently they are a traditional school ( uncertain which one dammit). We demonstrate basic naginata wazas and they demonstrate thier blocks and counters ( explicitly told no throwing around people in armour) but there will be a certain amount of weapons sparring.

My question to you (gentle readers) is what the heck can we expect from the aiki people? Does anyone know a good reference to aiki weapon techniques with emphasis on aiki v naginata or more importantly has anyone here done this before?

PS We have a goodly supply of tatami mats so hopefully nothing will get broken, deeply bruised maybe.....

[kendophx]

... We demonstrate basic naginata wazas and they demonstrate thier blocks and counters ...

Please clarify.

Will both the naginata-no-hito and the aikido-ka be using weapons or will the aikido-ka be doing blocks and counters open handed?


...explicitly told no throwing around people in armour...

You might wish to tie the dou about an inch or so looser, just in case somebody accidentally tumbles. Older sensei who used to do pre-war kendo/judo said this is what they used to do to accommodate falls/spills.


In any case, good luck and hope to hear about it when you're done.

[hamish]

Tsuki them first, and if they get in close after that, bring the butt end up and take them out with that. There shouldn't be any throwing around after that!

Have you done any Tendo-ryu?

[Jakob Ryngen]

Hide your regular bambo-naginata and go for ki-naginata! Much better vs sword "What? We always use this equipment!" :D I have never done naginata vs jo but I guess it must be terrible for the jo.

[alepto]

Please clarify.

Will both the naginata-no-hito and the aikido-ka be using weapons or will the aikido-ka be doing blocks and counters open handed?




You might wish to tie the dou about an inch or so looser, just in case somebody accidentally tumbles. Older sensei who used to do pre-war kendo/judo said this is what they used to do to accommodate falls/spills.


In any case, good luck and hope to hear about it when you're done.
Apparently both open handed and weapon(s). I believe jo was mentioned and possible bokken ( replaced by shinai for any sparring). The senior dan aiki guy did make a comment on budo people being to wrapped up in thier weapon so I assume he has some nasty tricks up his sleeve.
Thanks for the do hint!

[alepto]

Tsuki them first, and if they get in close after that, bring the butt end up and take them out with that. There shouldn't be any throwing around after that!

Have you done any Tendo-ryu?Unfortuneatly not, we are very lucky to have an excellent naginata sensei ( Mrs R Nagae sensei) but she currently only teaches IJNF/INF methods.


I believe these guys ( err mostly) have never done bogu before so there may be hope. So that is a good advantage ( err maybe)

[alepto]

Hide your regular bambo-naginata and go for ki-naginata! Much better vs sword "What? We always use this equipment!" :D I have never done naginata vs jo but I guess it must be terrible for the jo.
I wish, we had enough trouble digging up 15 spare naginatas, much sanding and glueing and taping .... has been happening lately. The senior dan person ( who will kill me for forgetting his name if he ever reads this) did mention they had specific blocks for polearms.

Oh well, having consumed humble pie last week ( a visiting group of wonderful ladies from Japan) I expect to eat again this week.

[alepto]

Please clarify.


<snip>
.
Just realized I did not answer the question.

Though they have some basic skills against the naginata ( polearms in general I believe) they have never done "formal" naginata, so we walk them through our basic strikes/blocks e.g. hasso -> men/sune, sensei puts on a demo then we wander for some "one-on-one" then they apparently will show us thier basic open handed/weapon blocks e.g. we do men they do "something", thier sensei demos then some one-on-one. Then some "sparring". As I expect they are all pretty much dan grade and we are mostly not it may be interesting. Also another quirk we are mostly female ( present company excepted) and they are apprantly mostly male.

We might pull in some reinforcing kendo/jo/ia people from the budokai if things get too messy!

It is my hope to get some video/pictures ...

[R A Sosnowski]

Hello
Next weekend we have a seminar between the local naginata club and one of the local aiki clubs. Apparently they are a traditional school ( uncertain which one dammit). We demonstrate basic naginata wazas and they demonstrate thier blocks and counters ( explicitly told no throwing around people in armour) but there will be a certain amount of weapons sparring.

My question to you (gentle readers) is what the heck can we expect from the aiki people? Does anyone know a good reference to aiki weapon techniques with emphasis on aiki v naginata or more importantly has anyone here done this before?

PS We have a goodly supply of tatami mats so hopefully nothing will get broken, deeply bruised maybe.....

Interesting idea. :D

I recall doing something like this years ago, but no Bogu -- in fact, it was through my Aikido Dojo that I was introduced to Atarashii Naginata in 1996.

Aikido-ka, in general, if they do any weapons work at all (and there are those who do not do any weapons work), favor the Bokken and the Jo. There are solo and paired forms.

For the paired forms, it is generally Tachi vs. Tachi and Jo vs. Jo (in my experience of 7-8 years of Aiki weapons we did not do Tachi vs. Jo - that training combination I got from Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo, but the movements of the Tachi and Jo in SMR are different than in Aiki-ken and Aiki-jo).

There are several different "styles" of Aiki-jo and Aiki-ken - the Iwama style of the late Saito-s. is one of the better known and better documented styles.

The other weapons training in Aikido is weapons-taking/-disarming: Tachi-dori (sword taking), Jo-dori (staff taking) and Tanto-dori (knife taking). Most of this practice is done at slower than realistic speeds for training.

If nothing else, Aikido-ka with weapons-training do have a sense of adaptive Ma-ai, based on what his/her opponent is using.

In weapons-taking, unarmed Aikido-ka are trained to get inside of the effective range of the weapon, break the opponent's balance, and apply a disarm technique. This is also weapons-taking by armed Aikido-ka. There is leveraging your weapons against the opponent or using your weapons butt-end against a pressure-point to affect a disarm or yield.

For hints on Aiki-ken vs. Naginata and Aiki-jo vs. Naginata, check out the threads on Isshu-jiai of the Kendo (Shinai) vs. Naginata variety.

It would be instructive to know which style of Aikido you are interfacing with.

HTH

[Jakob Ryngen]

My experiece is that gedan no kamai discourages most "step-in" fighters. When they start worrying to much of there legs - go for inko from gedan. But as always - be flexible!

[alepto]

Looking at the responses I suppose one of the key attacks will be a retreat attack ( been practising fruiage/hasso etc while moving backwards.

The genden stance does seem a very good one for these in-fighters ( which I now assume will be what I will be facing)

I was wondering if anyone has tried waki vs kendo in fighters, particular waki while moving backwards?

[kendophx]

Disclaimer:
I have never done aikido vs. naginatado.

But here are some thoughts, if you are interested...

If the aikido-ka are going to fight open handed, expect them to go under or sidewise to grab for your hands to prevent you from manipulating the weapon. As long as the e-bu is, they may forgo going for the hands and go for grabbing the e-bu around center of rotation. If they get a good grip on the center of rotation, expect them to (or try to) wrap the ishizuki around your hands/arms to try to break your grip on the weapon.

Expect them also to use the weapon against you (ramming the ishizuki into your dou, et cetera) so you focus on trying to keep control of the weapon rather than using it against them. While you're doing that, they are going to work their way down the e-bu until they get close enough to pin/joint lock your hands and arms.

They are going to be more familiar with the mat than you are. Expect a lot more motion in the vertical plane than you would with a naginata shiai, including low crouching, and a much wider stance (covers distance quickly).


---
If they use weapons as part of their regular practice, expect naginata techniques similar to your own, but with a lot more use of upper cuts and dou cuts than you would normally see in naginata shiai.

i.e. They are going to be more experimental with the "8-directions" philosophy, than most naginata-no-hito.

---
If they are going back at you with weapons but they are not very familiar with the naginata (i.e. this is an introduction to the weapon for them) expect them to grab the e-bu with a flat knuckle pattern instead of a diagonal knuckle pattern. This makes slashing vey difficult, limiting the naginata to more of a poking weapon than a cutting weapon. <--This is my experience on introducing bokken to other budo-ka. It takes awhile to get a feel for the advantages of an oval handle.

Also, I don't think many aikido-ka are comfortable with han-mi, as it limits them to one hand. Inability to assume han-mi, again, reduces the effectiveness of the naginata as a cutting weapon, especially for sune.

But this impression could be way off base...


...explicitly told no throwing around people in armour...

kendophx replies You might wish to tie the dou about an inch looser, ....
I would like to point out that the sensei who told me this were all men. I have never had a female sensei make that recommendation, but then again, I don't know any female sensei who ever did bogu'd grappling.

[alepto]

Hello all
Well from a sparring point of view it was a bit of a fizzer. The aiki people were very keen on the study of the naginata, apart from some jo demos, most of the time was spent with the aiki people learning and practising the naginata!
From the after practise "tea and cake" conversations it seems the reach of the naginata, as well as the grace/flowing nature was something that seemed to impress them a lot. It apparently became apparent , after the shiai demo, that the blocks/counters etc that were planned would not have worked very well against the naginata *shrug* I do not know how the read those comments I assume the way the naginata is never extended far from the body and/or rotates around us.
A shiai demo probably drew the most "ohh ahh" style comments. Though happo buri came a close second.
Apparently we will be having a followup (in due course) where some actual sparring may occur.

-stuart