Sonkyo

[DCPan]

Hi,

Food for thought.

When getting in and out of sonkyo, how many of you do it in keiko the same way you do it in kata?

Especially after gosame-to, do you take 5 little steps back like kata, or do you back up in 3 big steps?

Checking different Japanese Kendo books, I've seen both for keiko, not kata.

Thoughts?

[Kirin]

We were tought 3 steps forward and 5 steps back ... very basic kendo in japan. ....long before start learning kendo -kata.
(not many dojos in japan start teaching kendo-kata until you are ready for 1-kyu when requires kata as part of testing)

.... and its osame-to(u)

[JSchmidt]

Yups, 3 forward and 5 back.


Jakob

[Yann]

Yep, same in France...

[Caleb]

We were tought 3 steps forward and 5 steps back ... very basic kendo in japan. ....long before start learning kendo -kata.
(not many dojos in japan start teaching kendo-kata until you are ready for 1-kyu when requires kata as part of testing)
Really? I learned all the tachi kata for the shidachi side in the fist month of joining. I think kata is essential for kendo, because everything in the kata can be applied to keiko. Some of it isn't reasonable, or that applicable, but in theory, everything is applicable to taikai/shiai style kendo. On to the relevant subject-
Iv always been told 3 forward 5 backward, same as kata.

[souljah]

Is having the thumb on the tsuba important when going in and out of keiko? I find it almost impossible with kote on.

[meow]

3 steps forward, 5 steps back here in germany.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Is having the thumb on the tsuba important when going in and out of keiko? I find it almost impossible with kote on.
I'm told that the etiquette has changed on that due to the difficulty of doing it with kote. Now you just lift the shinai to waist level, no thumb required. I still use the thumb myself, just habit.

As for the footwork - 3 forward unless you're too far apart at the start, then add extra steps as necessary. 5 back.

[Kirin]

I'm told that the etiquette has changed on that due to the difficulty of doing it with kote. Now you just lift the shinai to waist level, no thumb required. I still use the thumb myself, just habit.

Hmmm.... I believe thumb on tuba at taito position still apply to kendo etiquette. ....was it changed recently?

[streetcleaner]

3 steps forward. 5 back. thumb on tsuba. only that way here in russia

[LNGUYEN]

The thumb on the tsuba is quite difficult for the new kote, but after it was break-in, I found it was easy. A quick secret, just don't hold you shinai all the way to the tsuba, leave some room for the thumb movement.

[Old Warrior]

Now try it with 2 swords in one hand. I keep worrying about, not dropping them. And, when it takes me too long to put them away, my opponent is leaving the court while I'm still scrambling too look moderately coordinated. So, its practice, practice and then more practice.

[DCPan]

Now try it with 2 swords in one hand. I keep worrying about, not dropping them. And, when it takes me too long to put them away, my opponent is leaving the court while I'm still scrambling too look moderately coordinated. So, its practice, practice and then more practice.

Have you considered using Naginata kote? :D

[Hai_hai]

Hi,

Food for thought.

When getting in and out of sonkyo, how many of you do it in keiko the same way you do it in kata?

Especially after gosame-to, do you take 5 little steps back like kata, or do you back up in 3 big steps?

Checking different Japanese Kendo books, I've seen both for keiko, not kata.

Thoughts?
I do what is taught in class. I am a robot.

[DCPan]

I do what is taught in class. I am a robot.

Hi Hai Hai,

Shu-Ha-Ri? :D

It's not that simple when you've belonged to multiple dojos and trained under multiple teachers. In some ways, I really envy the consistency of having learned your basics all in one place. I certainly didn't have that "luxury" :D

As a case in point of how "different" things could be, at one of the dojos that I did belong to, the head sensei advocates not using fumikomi at all...all suriashi. I didn't even learn fumikomi until at my second dojo. You might think that's wack, but that sensei happens to consistently place in the top 3 at nationals (not US), so who's to say he's wrong? What he didn't wasn't mainstream, but... :D

FYI, the "book" that I am referring which mentioned moving forward 3 steps and backing up 3 steps also is published by the Osaka Sports Education University....

Also, looking at the recent visit by a group from Kanagawa, the visitors had different timings and form for nuke-to and osame-to...not to mention foot placement.

Add iai to the equation, the timing gets even more interesting for nuke-to as I am used to gripping the sword in second step in iai, whereas this is not so in kendo kata.

:D

[not-I]

Add iai to the equation, the timing gets even more interesting for nuke-to as I am used to gripping the sword in second step in iai, whereas this is not so in kendo kata. :D
Hehe, iai, sounds like gohonme-kesagiri. And then there's the usual three steps back in many iaido kata. To add to the confusion, i practice Rinzai Zen, where in the zendo we move forward starting with the left foot and backward starting with the right. :cross_eye

Btw, Pan, do you always grin like a maniac (:D) in real life? :wink:

[DCPan]

Hehe, iai, sounds like gohonme-kesagiri. And then there's the usual three steps back in many iaido kata.

Btw, Pan, do you always grin like a maniac (:D) in real life? :wink:

Hi Travis,

I was thinking more of Morote-Zuki, but hey!

Add Koranto, and it gets better huh? :D

And yes, I do have a silly grin for the most part, esp at kendo and iaido practice because it is where I'm happy.

Besides, haven't you heard the Chinese saying "tiao(4) li(3) tzang(2) dao(1)" (i.e. hiding a sword in your smile) :D

Honestly, it comes from earlier posting habits on listservs before smileys are available...

[DCPan]

Here's my silly grin:

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcpan2000/detail?.dir=/Kendo&.dnm=Seiza01.jpg

[not-I]

Here's my silly grin:
Ok, ok, i'm a believer. :D

Now tit for tat, here's my smart-ass smirk...

(Lucky PMs ain't working or we'd get flamed right outta this thread.)

And thanks for that Chinese phrase. No, i had never heard it before.

[Kirin]

DCPan-

I know most of PNKF senseis, but they do teach 3 forward, 5 backward and hand on tuka at 3rd step.
You should be sticking with what your sensei taught you....and do not even think about shu-ha-ri untill you reach their level :wink:

Kendo vs Iaido ... both very similar but big diffrence is iaido has multiple opponents where kendo is single. Thats why some footwork is diffrent from each other (you will see that more in ko-ryu iai)

Do you have link to Osaka Sports Education University (Osaka taiiku Daigaku)?
They have excellent kendo program and if they are publishing 3 forward, 3 backward, there might be recent change in footwork. (but again, even so, you should follow your sensei)

There are many un-cleared rei-hou
-at za-rei (rei from seiza), new version in kendo is both hand at same time, used to be like iaido, left hand then right.
-tenugui is always inside men before you put it on and after you took it off.
used to be tenugui over men.
....etc

I hope IKF become more active notifying any rei-hou changes so we all can practicce in unified form.

[DCPan]

DCPan-
I know most of PNKF senseis, but they do teach 3 forward, 5 backward and hand on tuka at 3rd step.


Hi,

I actually started my training in Taiwan, then SCKF, then ended up here in the PNKF.

At some point in time (it's all blurring now :D), I've picked up the doing a big-koi-guchi-giri like motion on the second step with drawning the shinai out slightly past the biggest knot, then release and sonkyo on the 3rd step.

It was at the recent shinza when I was "volunteered" to be kata partner to fill in for folks testing (odd man out) that I realized that I haven't been paying attention to how I sonkyo, hence the research.


You should be sticking with what your sensei taught you....and do not even think about shu-ha-ri untill you reach their level :wink:


I know :D I was just teasing Hai-Hai. I simply haven't had a chance to check with Marsten sensei. Thought I might as well do some "research" :D


Do you have link to Osaka Sports Education University (Osaka taiiku Daigaku)?
They have excellent kendo program and if they are publishing 3 forward, 3 backward, there might be recent change in footwork. (but again, even so, you should follow your sensei)


I'm sorry, but I don't have the link for it. It is the "Illustrated Kendo" guide that's all hand-drawn in a comic book like fashion with grey cover. I'll take a photo of it with my camera and post it when I get home.


I hope IKF become more active notifying any rei-hou changes so we all can practice in unified form.

Even if we are notifed, some old timers will still do it the way they've done it though.

In some ways, I'm not so sure I agree with this "favor of the month" changes, esp in iaido. Not that I'm in a position to agree or disagree mind you...

I remember one visiting sensei in the last few years who, after giving the official instruction of the kendo kata reiho, proceeds to say, "Now, this is how I think it should be done...." :D

:D

[DCPan]

Hello again,

IMHO, Shu-Ha-Ri is inevitable in the learning process.

While my interpretation of it may not the same as the original intent of the one who coined the term, it is my belief that Shu-Ha-Ri is really a cyclic process that is always happening…unless you stopped learning :D

Everyone of us has different physical limitations and mental constructs that comes as our baggage. Even if the sensei can present the material perfectly, our limited attention span could not absorb it all in one sitting, much less actually making it our own.

Consequently, we are always modeling and remodeling in our learning.

The distinction between those who improve and those who do not are the one who are willing and able to re-examine themselves and noticed that they are so far off what was taught they need to go back to basics.

Each time we are willing to embrace shoshin and re-examine ourselves, we polish ourselves that much more and adds one more piece to the picture.

Similarly, each time we polish ourselves, we gain that much more physical vocabulary to really express ourselves.

I don’t think it is premature to be aware of the process. I think it is only an issue when you try to rush the process rather than letting it run its due course.

Sincerely,

[jmarsten]

At Bellevue it is 3 fwd and 5 back, same as the kata. Also the thumb on the tsuba using a shinai was basically dropped about 10 years ago. Never saw anything official only word of mouth.

[JSchmidt]

With my previous pair of kote, I couldnt get the thumb on the shinai, but I can with my new pair.
As for when to put your hand on the tsuka, it seems to depend on who you ask :)

Jakob

[DCPan]

Hi,

I guess my "research" is over! :D

Here's the link to the book:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4772700633/qid%3D1085459066/250-9643323-3423434#product-details

Please let me know if you still want pictures.

The authors are: Shizawa Kunio and Hakamada Daizoo sensei, both kyoshi nanadan.

The book title translates roughly as something like "See it, learn it, teach it, the illustrated kendo" :D

It was first published in Showa 60. I got the second revised print the year of Heisei 11.

:D

[slidercrank]

Besides, haven't you heard the Chinese saying "tiao(4) li(3) tzang(2) dao(1)" (i.e. hiding a sword in your smile) :D


"笑裏藏刀" LOL, that's a good one :)

[Hai_hai]

Here's my silly grin:

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcpan2000/detail?.dir=/Kendo&.dnm=Seiza01.jpg

And your rich-boy show-off bogu.

[DCPan]

And your rich-boy show-off bogu.

LOL, I was wondering when you were coming around... :D

Really, none of us can be any more or any less than who we are.

While I didn't plan on using something this nice this early, why should I complain when things are going my way? :smoker: Besides, it's my second set, perhaps my first conservative set is more to your liking?

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcpan2000/detail?.dir=/Kendo&.dnm=c5dc.jpg

Here's a better picture if you are still drooling: :devious:

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dcpan2000/detail?.dir=/Kendo&.dnm=3b46.jpg

Sincerely,

[Kendoka]

Have you considered using Naginata kote? :D

Naginata kote are for Naginata.

[takiotoshi]

Always taught to do 3 steps forward, 5 steps back, thumb on tsuba