Starting to developt kiai

[utsutsu]

Hi, i'm new in Kendo (about 2 months) and when i started to practice, i've been watching every kendoka in the dojo does a big screen before do an excersice... some new kendokas like me doesn't screen cause they have shame?, even, most of them do it very silently.

I think mi sensei said "more kiai" so i generate a big sound that exhales air from the stomach like i've heard, it becomes sour instantly at my throat :S

Another question, do i need to say someting, or can i just generate a sound...

sorry but I just don't know too much...

[LNGUYEN]

Let me the first to start, Kiai is to generate power within your body and to dominate your opponent spirit. When you hit the target, you kiai your target name like Men, Kote, Do, or Tsuki but if you are not hitting anything, you can just kiai some sound which is up to your comfortable. Some people like Yaaaaa, some one else just scream unmeaning words, some other do something like roaring. Or you can just say "whoa, look behind you" when your opponent turns his head, you can go for Men. :evil:

[mystic_kendoka]

wat do u mean ""it becomes sour instantly at my throat ""

maybe u used ur abs too much, and ur stomach acids came up..?

first get confident with using kiai, loudly, then stop using ur throat, and use ur abs, you'll know when u are doing it properly when ur stomach starts hurting...

[not-I]

I have a loud, deep voice and i used to sing in a rock band, so kiai is naturally one of my favorite kendo things.

I can only agree with what the others said, but i can't help adding the following:A lot of people are shy about using loud kiai, but part of its importance, especially for beginners, is to overcome that shyness. When you get into bogu, any sort of shyness or holding back will be detrimental to your practice, go it's imperative that you get used to "letting it all out," i.e. opening yourself up, now.

The "men," "kote" and "do" kiai when striking targets should be clear to you already. What you yell in kamae before striking is up to you, but if nothing comes of itself, try imitating a sempai's kiai at first. The more you get into it, the more your kiai will become your own.

Now, what you mentioned about your kiai "turning sour in your throat" seems to indicate to me that you are either 1.) still holding back, or 2.) still using your throat too much to generate the sound. Once you start getting it right, your stomach muscles will probably be sore after practice (along with the rest of your muscles), but your throat won't be. Also, if you know someone who sings professionally, ask them to show you how they produce pure tones, and get them to help you make the sound with a minimum of throat.
KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! :smiley:

[mystic_kendoka]

i find that it annoying when they copy someone's kiai, my sempai had an unordinary kiai, (ah eeeee) and all the newbies were copying it... o well, at least they're confident about kiai now..

[Hai_hai]

1. Because everyone is yelling, don't be "ashamed".
2. If you are not used to yelling because you are a major wussy without balls, you need to change that.
3. You need to yell using your stomach muscles to get volume, but don't "sing" the kiai like an opera singer.
4. What to say? There are a variety of things you probably have heard but cannot make out any actual words. "Yaa", "Yo", "Yi", "Yup" and then there are various screeches "Ii", "Eh" or low grunts ""Ha", Hu". If you use any of these, no one will give you a weird look. You can actually use "Kiai" as your kiai. Making it a one syllable yell, it kind of sounds like "Kyai". Pitch is important. The high-pitched, "wicked witch of the West" kiai is a popular one.

[Old Warrior]

I'm a big guy and I never give some grunt/kiai as posturing (just about everyone who faces me does). Of course, I call out the target as I hit and try to show good spirit. But, every rare once in a while, I let out a blood curdling sound with the express purpose of alarming my opponent. Believe it or not, it frequently causes them to raise their hands to protect their head. Then I attempt a quick kote to the raised wrist or a do cut. So, don't worry about it, but good startling yell, can serve a tactical purpose.

[mystic_kendoka]

i know someone, who does a high pitched kiai "pas op(but sounds like p'sop)" for those of you that don't speak dutch, this means, "watch out"

[not-I]

3. You need to yell using your stomach muscles to get volume, but don't "sing" the kiai like an opera singer.
4. [...] Pitch is important. The high-pitched, "wicked witch of the West" kiai is a popular one.
I agree that you don't "sing" a kiai, but you'd be suprised how long an opera singer can hold a tone through breath technique. Many kendoka would envy them during cross-dojo kirikaeshi. The important thing in the long term is to have a minimum inhalation time and maximal exhalation. Try doing the first part of kirikaeshi in one breath, then try doing the whole thing in one breath.

High-pitched screeches can be nice once in a while (one of our female kendoka sounds like a real Valkyrie and she's even blonde to boot), but they tend to be "throaty" and i find that the deeper tones require a lot more ab action as you have to summon them from the depths of your bowels (hara).
Anyway, this is all just theory. The only way anyone can learn how to kiai is by kiai-ing.

Btw, OW, if you consider kamae kiai to just be "posturing" i think you may be missing the point. Of course it has tactical uses, but it often serves the one issuing the kiai even more by simply clearing his/her mind.

P.S. i just thought of another goofy kiai i might try out next time: "tiinkfasssss" as in "think fast." :wink:

[Old Warrior]

"often serves the one issuing the kiai even more by simply clearing his/her mind."

I never considered that possibility. Somehow, a guy standing in front of me with a 4' club who wants to rap me in the head - ALWAYS gets my undivided attention. That's why I do Kendo and not golf. There is no time to worry about the rest of life. I am too busy paying attention to the activity in which I am engaged.

[Hai_hai]

I agree that you don't "sing" a kiai, but you'd be suprised how long an opera singer can hold a tone through breath technique.

Actually, I'm not surprised. I am a musician but a bad singer. I am classically trained in piano but currently play other instruments in rock/jazz style.

[Yann]

I am pretty new to kendo, but as I started in Ju-jitsu, I am ok with kiaing.
However, I have trouble kiaing BEFORE the strike...

Any advice ? Do you think it's important to kiai before striking ?
Tell your experiences please :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

The important thing in the long term is to have a minimum inhalation time and maximal exhalation.
It's better if you exhale minimally - try not to let much air out as you kiai.

[not-I]

It's better if you exhale minimally - try not to let much air out as you kiai.
Ok, but isn't this so that, by regulating your exhalation, you have more air to exhale over a longer period of time?
I was told in an aside by a Japanese sempai that the inhalation should be sharp, quick and silent through the nose and the exhalation should be gradual and regulated (which, yes, would imply not "over-kiai-ing").

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ok, but isn't this so that, by regulating your exhalation, you have more air to exhale over a longer period of time?
Partly. Also, you are trying to tense your abdomen and generate the kiai from there, which you can't do if a lot of air is being expelled - then it just becomes a yell.

[JSchmidt]

Actually, kiah'ing is very similar to 'proper' singing. The techniques taught are very similar, ie sharp inhalation through the nose, pushing the air down toward the abdomen and using the abdomen to control the sound. Also, you are taught not to 'push' it through your throat, but to open it up and let the sound flow freely.

Jakob

[DCPan]

Hi all,

Forgot the proper terms (anatomy is so far behind me now! :D), but supposedly, doing deep abdominal breathing activatives/supresses your sympathetic/parasympathetic nerves in such a way as to help calm you, so there is an "effect" from kiai.

In older Chinese martial art texts and some modern karate texts, there's also some mention of how specific kiai "sounds" can enhance your movement because of the way your ad muscles needs to be engaged to properly vocalize those sounds.

Lastly, this is something I played with a couple of years ago, but haven't really picked up again. I conditioned myself with specific kiai to help my mentality...probably from watching too much anime, but hey!

For example, you can have a kiai that helps you get your last wind. You can have a kiai that bolsters your kigurai for sutemi, etc.

Rituals can work for or against you...it all depends on how you use it! :D

FWIW.

[not-I]

Forgot the proper terms (anatomy is so far behind me now! :D), but supposedly, doing deep abdominal breathing activatives/supresses your sympathetic/parasympathetic nerves in such a way as to help calm you, so there is an "effect" from kiai.
There is some info on this in neurologist James H. Austin's magistral Zen & the Brain (M.I.T.Press, 1998):

Once when I was in the laboratory in Kyoto, and not at all mindful of such facts about breathing, I observed a curious phenomenon. At the time, I was performing pharmacology experiments on cats and was monitoring the field potentials of several larger groups of nerve cells throughout the brain. As I looked at all these discharges, I became puzzled. Every few seconds, the firing waxed, then waned. The resulting wave forms were a series of peaks and troughs. Why did they follow a regular rhythm? Why were the rhythmical firings at sites higher in the limbic system synchronous with those of other cell groups down in the brain stem? Further observation provided a simple explanation. Every time the cat breathed in, its nerve cells fired much more. Every time the cat breathed out, these discharges slacked off. Breathing out was quieting the brain. Lesser degrees of this same phenomenon have since been observed in the human amygdala and hippocampus.
[...]
In summary then, whenever we breath more quietly and prolong the phase of expiration, we are probably quieting the firing activity of many nerve cells, both in the medulla and above.
(pp.94, 98)

[taganahan]

i still get the creeps when i remember my fellow senior kendokas do their kiai. they sound more like a girl screaming....i imagine someone burning and screaming in a high pitched voice....always raises my hair. sometimes their kiai feel cold and chilly.

[Neopluto]

kiai, or giap for me, are special. I believe everyone is shy from the start, I mean, shouting in front of strangers is a pretty daring thing to do, especially if you're a newbie. But I don't think you should imitate the sempai/sabum, first of all...it's annoying, and second, you should allow yourself to create your own. I don't think people should concentrate too much on creating a sound, thinking too much will hinder you...and it's often said that the highest level of swordsmanship is when you do not use your mind. (self-explanatory)

Also...it's funny, but I think most sempai/sabum's kiai/giaps are similar. Mine too has a hair-raising voice.
-cyouaround

[kenshin13]

[QUOTE=not-I]I can only agree with what the others said, but i can't help adding the following:A lot of people are shy about using loud kiai, but part of its importance, especially for beginners, is to overcome that shyness. When you get into bogu, any sort of shyness or holding back will be detrimental to your practice, go it's imperative that you get used to "letting it all out," i.e. opening yourself up, now.[QUOTE]

Hehe. Not me, Im really loud. HIIIIIIIIYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. But sometimes my voice cracks so it goes like this: HHHHHHiiiiiiiiIIIIIIiiiiiiiYAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAA! (laughs) sounds kinda like Tarzan.

[GrandCentral9]

I gotta say... the first time I ever saw two people kendo sparring, I almost broke out into laughter because of their kiais. I've been around martial arts for a while (black belt in TKD), and am familiar with the concept, as well as some of the outlandish noises produced. I don't think i've ever heard anything as high-pitched as a kendo kiai, though.

I think the most impressive one that i've ever heard is from my first instructor. He was this really short Korean guy who wore glasses... looked like a librarian. When he kiai'd, though, his whole face and neck would turn red, and this primal scream would just resonate through the dojang. Awesome. (okay, maybe that was the second most impressive... I have this female friend whose scream just exmplifies pure rage and fury...)

Me? I can't seem to produce the high pitched noises (without severely hurting my throat... throat is the only way I can produce something that high... i've tried with the abdomen and can't do it), so I settle for some lower pitched, much less impressive TKD kiais. Any tips? I figure once i'm wearing a helmet, it won't bother me so much making a proper kendo scream (element of anonymity), so I should start practicing now.

edit: Oh, and if you don't emulate your sensei's kiai, where are you supposed to learn one? I don't think it's offensive to copy... unless your sensai has a really unique kiai and wants to keep it that way. After all, you're learning strokes and technique from them... why not their battle cries?

[Martin (Wakey)]

Personally I'm aiming for that RingWraith sound from Lord of the Rings.

Or maybe a really big Ronnie James Dio heavy metal falsetto.

But mostly I just go EEeekk

[Halcyon]

Me? I can't seem to produce the high pitched noises (without severely hurting my throat... throat is the only way I can produce something that high... i've tried with the abdomen and can't do it), so I settle for some lower pitched, much less impressive TKD kiais. Any tips?yep. start doing karaoke. the ones where they have private booths. then practice singing as loudly as possible. good singing and good kiai have much in common.

alternatively, if you drive a lot, sing along with your favorite songs in the privacy of your own car!

[GrandCentral9]

I already sing along when I drive... and i'm not talking about manly, road-warrior type songs either. I've got a great falsetto... years of singing along to girlish 80's bands will do that to you. I guess i'll just have to practice harder :) Actually, I do also practice kiai'ing in my car while I drive...

Or try that "through the nose, controlling with the abdomen" thing... Which will have to be practice in the car, so as not to scare the people i'm working with.

[Kote-Men]

nobody can match my sensei's kiai!!!!! she really wails it out like a soprano, and suddenly i feel so puny... :) I thought someone was screaming for help when i first heard her. I don't think i'll every get used to it.


hmmm how does my kiai sound? My sister says its weird..

[itachi]

Kendo without kiai is just not the same. It would not be as exciting. Kiai improves enthusiasm level by a hundred times. Don't be a shame of your kiai! Use it to shame your opponent!

[Neopluto]

Kendo without kiai is just not the same. It would not be as exciting. Kiai improves enthusiasm level by a hundred times. Don't be a shame of your kiai! Use it to shame your opponent!That is SO true!!!! Okay, in our dojang, we have a couple of great leaders, and not only do they know their stuff and are willing to share the knowledge and teach you properly, but when this one particular guy starts up class, it's like an explosion! And it's not just him, because once he starts, it's like everyone else wants to join in too. It generates alot of energy that you might have thought wasn't there before!