Wrestling with Kendo Kata #7 ( NanahonMe)

[mateo]

We recently introduced some extra pressure into practise by using both a foam 'chambara' ( toy-like practise weapon) and also foam covered bokken. This was a really excellent aid for kata # 1. The distancing became much truer. We found that uchitachi sometimes was not fully extending with the bokken out of fear of 'success' on the initial attack with the bokken. ( A real fear as we use the 'ju-sakura' itto-ryu bokken I brought back from Japan. ) Letting the initial attacker go for it with the safer mock weapon allowed us to adjust the distance and have the kata work better when going back to bokken.

We didn't find it productive to do Katas 5 and 6 using these softer weapons at all.

NanahonMe however posed an interesting problem once we used these weapons. A while back we had problems before acknowledging that we had to get a significant pressure against shitachi's blade to get him to try to retake the centerline so that when we lifted out of 'ai seigan' he would veer far enough off the centerline to make uchitachi's attack and cut something he might realistically try for. ( Otherwise shitachi's blade is still close to the centerline and uchitachi would just be throwing himself on it. Something they would never do. )

Once we introduced these mock weapons and reacted realistically we found uchitachi was able to change the direction of his cut and smack shitachi on the head as he drops his level for the 'do' cross-body cut. It is plain from my smarting ear and head that some real speed in 'dropping' one's level and entering is required to avoid this and unlike with # 1 this was not solved with a bit more awareness and practise. This is a work in progress for us!

Any feelings about your work with # 7?

I'd be interested in hearing about any of your experiences in 'wrestling' with the katas.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Your timing is wrong if uchidachi can change, not your speed or your drop. Your cut and his miss should be nearly simultaneous - unlike the other kata, the "ya" and "toh" should be heard at the same time. Remember that your sword is making contact with his doh with the first step, just like it would for a normal kendo-style nuki-doh. First step, mono-uchi makes contact; second step, drawing the blade through the body; third step, blade through to the finishing position.

[Hotei]

Neil,

Respectfully, how is it possible to have the Yah and Toh sound at the same time, when there is a defensive step back before the missed attack can even take place, and this does not occur until after the (missed) attack has begun?

Logically, thought the kiai may be very close, there must be some seperation.

Forgive me is this is a hard and true rule in your school. I may have a different time in mind, and it is possible that we have been taught from 2 different Kendo traditions.

<gassho>

[Neil Gendzwill]

There is no step back at that point. There is a step back when uchidachi attempts tsuki and shidachi defends it. After that there is a brief pause, then uchidachi attacks men and shidachi defends with nuki-doh. Of course, the nuki-doh is a result of seme exerted on uchidachi, so shidachi is not reacting there. Uchidachi is committed to the attack, shidachi is moving as he is fully committed, so the kiai comes at roughly the same time.

[hyuna]

Hi Neil,

I might be confused about what you mean by first and second step, but I was under the impression that the strike to doh occurs on the second step.

First step is with the right foot, off line and shouldering the bokuto (because it is shouldered, at this point men is still defended). Doh cut and contact with monouchi coincides with the left foot stepping forward. Third step would be the right foot again prior to kneeling. This is how it was introduced to me, and also the kata as described in _Kendo: The Definitive Guide_ (pp 112-113) and in _Kendo: Elements, rules, and Philosophy_ (p 163) describe it in this way as well, although the description of the third step is a bit muddy. The impression I get, although this is not something I've been taught explicitly, is that this is not a cut through, rather a slice across, given initial contact on step 2 (as I've described it here) and the hasuji that I've seen generally described.

I agree that the doh and missed men should be simultaneous -- shidachi right foot step occurs with uchidachi left foot step and raising the bokuto, then shidachi left foot and doh occurs with uchidachi right foot and men.

Because of the shouldering movement, even though there is no contact made between the bokuto, I have gotten the feeling that this waza is more like men-kaeshi-do than men-nuki-do.

Now I am quite confused, so I would appreciate any comments on the subject.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My understanding is that contact on the second step is the older way to teach it. Certainly it was the way I was first taught, 20 years ago or so. Recently I've usually seen it taught cut on the first step. These break-downs of do this on step 1, that on step 2 and so on are just a means to an end - the actual cut is done with smooth footwork and movement and there isn't that much difference between them when you see them executed at speed. The body drop in particular is hard to do when you're breaking it down by step, so the 1-2-3 approach has to be abandoned at that point for more fluid movement.

I've never heard of shouldering the bokken. This is men-nuki-doh, not katsugi-doh nor kaeshi-doh.

[hyuna]

My understanding is that contact on the second step is the older way to teach it. Certainly it was the way I was first taught, 20 years ago or so. Recently I've usually seen it taught cut on the first step.
Ok, thank you for the clarification.

These break-downs of do this on step 1, that on step 2 and so on are just a means to an end
Agreed

I've never heard of shouldering the bokken.

Yes, I understand that the technique is nuki-waza, not katsugi or kaeshi. Specifically, it is not katsugi-waza because shidachi is not adopting the posture to cause uchidachi to move, and it is not kaeshi-waza because there is no contact. I suppose this may be just an aspect of breaking down the entire fluid movement -- I did not mean that a shouldered kamae is adopted in the middle.

To double-check, I just reviewed my ZNKR Kendo no Kata videotape, and it shows it as I've said. When shidachi steps out to the right, the sword is brought to the left shoulder before cutting doh. At the left shoulder, the sword is more-or-less still at the centerline since shidachi has stepped off line. But, specifically, the sword is not brought up to full jodan (hands above shidachi's head) and then around, or something like that.

It seems to me that a movement like that is necessary if one is taught to cut on the 2nd step -- if shidachi steps forward on the first step and comes to normal jodan, it will be hard to get around uchidachi's sword to hit doh on the second step (because this is nuki-do). Bringing the sword back to the left shoulder on the first step allows it to stay on uchidachi's centerline, which allows shidachi to bring it in under uchidachi's cut. However, if shidachi hits on the 1st step, then it seems possible to come to normal jodan before the cut.

Am I making any sense?

[Neil Gendzwill]

In either case you wouldn't need to raise the sword so high as jodan. Or at least, I don't. About face height is sufficient. To my mind the sword comes over the shoulder because you're stepping to the right and also because you're cutting on the left. The movement might be a little deceptive - similar to #2 when it looks like shidachi moves his hands around to avoid kote, when really he just drops them and steps diagonally back at the same time.

Bear in mind that the kendo kata video are getting pretty old. I forget when they were produced but I'm thinking 10 years old now? I may of course be wrong on what is canon regarding that doh.

[Hotei]

Neil-san,

After doing a little research (looking it up in Craig's book "Heart of Kendo" and asking my Sensei) I've determined that I butted in without knowing what I was talking about. We ARE discussing 2 different forms. My appologies.

You know for a fact that in your form there is no step, in my form there is. Again, sorry to have raised the question.

<gassho>

[Jerry Wellbrock]

I agree with Neil's explaination of Kata Number 7. This is pretty much the way my Sensei all teach it. As for the Yah and To. I have read and heard this before that the To sound be sounding before the Yah is finished. Maybe we just need to move a little faster.

A great resource for all the kata is: "Kendo Kata:Essence and Application" by Inoe Yoshihiko, Hanshi 8th Dan and translated by Alex Bennett. This book is available thought Kendo World Magazine and is a great bargain at $15.00 US. I have purchase several copies to give to my dojo mates. Everyone who has a copy thinks it is great!

Jerry :old_man:

[Hotei]

Jerry - Thanks for the information! I'll look it up!

[Hai_hai]

...I'd be interested in hearing about any of your experiences in 'wrestling' with the katas.
I don't wrestle while doing kata. Maybe you should do the same.

[hyuna]

Hi Neil,

The videotape is pretty clear on the movement, as there is an overhead view. I don't have my copy of the books, but I recall one of them says to raise the bokuto to the "level of the left shoulder." Of course it is difficult to know what that means, exactly. Indeed the videotapes are getting old, but unfortunately they are the best resource I have on-hand. I will make it a point to get further clarification, though.

I think it is interesting that in many threads there is a lot of talk about how tradition-bound kendo is, and on the other hand we have here an issue where a sources that are merely ten years old may be getting out of date. I agree it is an issue; I just think it is an interesting fact that as much as we try to stay "traditional," even things as fundamental as kata do change over time.

Thanks again for your clarifications.

[not-I]

I think it is interesting that in many threads there is a lot of talk about how tradition-bound kendo is, and on the other hand we have here an issue where a sources that are merely ten years old may be getting out of date. I agree it is an issue; I just think it is an interesting fact that as much as we try to stay "traditional," even things as fundamental as kata do change over time.
I suspect at least part of the reason for this is that the kendo kata were put together from the kata of a number of different koryu (older schools of swordsmanship) such as Itto-ryu. Hence the question of tradition, or rather which tradition, is a subject of debate within the higher kendo committees that decide on their official form. These kata are subject to change over time, just like their models were.

[DCPan]

In one version of the kendo kata that I’ve learned, the “reason” why the sword is “shouldered” is not for katsugi-waza, but simply for setting up the hasuji of the blade to be “drawn” across the abdomen.

Hence, the right step and “shouldering-like” motion, then left step and “cut”.

But, it is not so much a “strike” as using the forward motion of the opponent to let himself drag his abdomen across the edge to disembowel himself.

However, as this is rather incongruent with the striking motion being used with shinai, it is not hard to see why this particular interpretation is not widely practiced anymore.

It was really scary to see the application of this motion in practice though.

Whereas kaeshi-do involves rotating the blade, if you were to “receive” the opponent’s strike with the back of the blade during the shouldering motion (shinogi-ji?), it makes for a very fast oji-waza that is unlike suriage-do OR kaeshi-do.

I still like cutting on the 2nd step more version simply because it is consistent with the principle of not cutting toward the leading foot for a downward strike in tameshigiri.... :D

[mateo]

Thanks Neil and others.

I found the exchange of ideas here and the advice about attending to the timing rather than attempting to enter faster quite helpful.

[DCPan]

It is plain from my smarting ear and head that some real speed in 'dropping' one's level and entering is required to avoid this and unlike with # 1 this was not solved with a bit more awareness and practise. This is a work in progress for us!


Well, I don't know if this is quite the same thing.

I have noticed that during waza-geiko, when we do men-nuki-doh drills, some folks would cut toward where you are going to be rather than where you were. While there is something to be said for moving at the right timing so the opponent can't track you with the strike, at some point, they may be directing the attack in such a way that I wouldn't do nuki-doh to begin with.

FWIW

[Kendoka]

..Your cut and his miss should be nearly simultaneous - unlike the other kata, the "ya" and "toh" should be heard at the same time. Remember that your sword is making contact with his doh with the first step, just like it would for a normal kendo-style nuki-doh. First step, mono-uchi makes contact; second step, drawing the blade through the body; third step, blade through to the finishing position.

Sorry - I have to disagree with Neils statement about when the cut to the doh makes contact.

Both the Zen Nihion Kendo Renmei (it's their kata !!) Nippon Kendo Kata Instruction Manual and Inoue senseis great book, Kendo Kata Essence and Application describe the cut to the doh as landing on the second step.
The other comments about timing and the kiai almost coinciding are correct.

[Dave Fowler]

Try it with a blade :-) When doing number 7 the old way, vs the new I found that I was always having to pull my blade back as the 2nd step was to close and I didn't want to disembowel my partner. With the strike on the first step your able to pull it through cleaner I find.