Hey Has there been any documented deaths in kendo?

[Ian]

Hi, i'd realy like to know if by any slight chance that any one has died in a kendo match or are they just rumors?:confused2:evolved::ogre:

[JSchmidt]

I know of a couple who died of a heart attack, but I gather that's not what you're after:)


Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

There were a couple of deaths a few decades ago from broken shinai staves after a strong tsuki. The staves slipped through the bars of the mengane and pierced the brain through the eye cavity. This occured somewhere in Europe; France or Germany IIRC. They were the impetus for people to start wearing the plexiglas eye protectors. Sorry, no real reference for you.

[Andoru]

One of my japanese sempai told me that this happens in japan too. He reckons it's not uncommon to hear of such things. That's why kids wear eye protectors in their men.

Once I was in sonkyo position about to start jigeiko when I noticed that my opponent's shinai has pierced through the sakigawa entirely (i.e. I can see the 4 staves). I stopped the keiko naturally. It's daunting to know that people may not even realise such an obvious fault.

So please....check and maintain your shinai regularly.

[Paikea]

Yes, I died in keiko last friday night. :ko:

[gsx1100s]

I know there's an opening for a joke with iaido here .....something about imagining your opponent TOO well..........ahh gosh darn it :silly:


cheers Michael:wink:

[takiotoshi]

Neil was right, the accident occured in Germany when a visiting Sensei from Japan was killed. I practiced in Germany from 99'-2002 and everyone is still on edge about tsuki. I did not know this at the time, but the club I was with would very rarely teach tsuki waza, so tsuki was an easy target during shiai.

[senki-kendo-jos]

I had a nasty experience with a sakigawa that split. I agree about checking shinai. Personally I check my shinai before and after a keiko.

[tapioka]

it's particularly bad when there are splinters on the shinai, and then the shinai finds its way up your kendogi-sleeve, and likewise up along your arm. ouch.

I've heard of the Germany incident too, but besides that, I haven't heard of any other deaths. I've had friends get concussions from people hitting too hard, though. :surprise:

[KhawMengLee]

Hmnnnn, I was fighting my sempai with nito and she went for kote, I tapped her shinai down to tare level and went in for men. Lets just say she kept center at tare level very well...yes, it was worse then being killed...she claims it was an accident...I still think it was a direct demo of tsuki ballz waza.

[taganahan]

...I still think it was a direct demo of tsuki ballz waza. lol...that really was an honour to be shown and experience how the tsuki ball waza works. lol :)

[KhawMengLee]

lol...that really was an honour to be shown and experience how the tsuki ball waza works. lol :)

yes, she thought so too.

[Nishi]

I was sure someone would post this but I guess not...it was a seperate thread last year with some shocking results.

So instead of re-posting, here is the thread! (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1474&highlight=university+death)

[Kenshin Axel]

Fricken Hell Nishi, thats shocking!!!
Goddamit, if I saw my sensei beating the living hell outta my friend I wouldnt just stand there, regardless of how skilled he is!!
Sensei shouldnt be soft on their Kendoka, but thats ridiculous!!

[taganahan]

that wasn't a kendo club. it looked like it was a fraternity, where if you wanna join you gotta pass an initiation and when you wanna quit they might even beat you up. they say that they do that because it was a "brotherhood thingy".

brotherhood?!!? they don't even know what brotherhood really means...grrr

[Noe]

In one article I read it mentions one boy dying due to a heart attack.

It was apparently very hot and they didn't want anyone drinking water...

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040518f2.htm

Thats the article ^^

[Nishi]

that wasn't a kendo club. it looked like it was a fraternity, where if you wanna join you gotta pass an initiation and when you wanna quit they might even beat you up. they say that they do that because it was a "brotherhood thingy".

kokushikan university was a kendo club, they where competitive and successful on the university scene. Although I cant vouch for the truth, I heard related information that suggested, that the younger kohai slipped during uchikomi, the sempai kicked him to encourage him back to his feet. For whatever reason he didnt stand up straight away, the sempai's kicking turned to stomping.

[bluerecords]

The staves slipped through the bars of the mengane and pierced the brain through the eye cavity. This occured somewhere in Europe; France or Germany IIRC. They were the impetus for people to start wearing the plexiglas eye protectors. ...

Hello,

just for info.

In 1977 the japanese Sensei Dr. Gotoh died during Keiko in Duesseldorf City / Germany, because the oponent's staves slipped through the bars of his mengane through his eye into the brain.

What I have heard, ironically someone tried to pull out the staves, what he shouldn't have done...

You always have to have in mind, that at that time the whole german Kendo thing had been taught just 7 years long. The knowledge hadn't spread as it has today!

Whatever, since 1979 there is an anual tournament the "Dr. Gotoh Memorial Tournament" for aprox 150 Kyusha / Mudansha starting in three categories.

The Shinai control is very strict there. So many of the german beginners in competition have to pass through that control at least once in their life, which leads to quite good prepared shinais in their future. :wink: The tournament cup is a very valuable one and is quite admired here. It had been sponsored by the family of Dr. Gotoh, which was a very honourable behaviour in my mind especially regarding the circumstances.
The Cup goes anually to the best dojo ( my university won it 2002 + 2003 ).

I am not shure, if this accident, which - referring to my sources - happened not at a Tsuke, is the actual reason for the german 'lack' of Tsuke training, as a japanese contributor to this forum has written.

Beside that, a quite good friend of mine, coach of another University Dojo here in Germany, many years ago had been a few weeks/months in hospital with a damaged Larynx due to a bulls*** Tsuke. So please be careful with that axe, Eugene!

We were grown up in Kendo with the conciousness, that you first have to master most of all other techniques (and emotions) and become aprox San Dan before you start with Tsuke.

As we have learned now from the latest generation of japanese Senseis and from KW as well, there are "new" reasonable tendencies to "start" with Tsuke for a better control / center of the body.

Hope the story helps somewhat.

Best regards

[Lloromannic]

Here in Mexico there was also an accident in which a stave went through the mengane and into the other person's eye.
I know the sensei who suffered it (Adalberto Chavez) and he still practices kendo. He can't see out of one eye though. Thankfully it was not fatal.

[samurai999]

Damn... Those stave piercings are really bad... I recall one sensei telling me that the main cause of these accidents is due to a "defective" sakigawa or a worn or old one. But as long as you know that the sakigawa isn't worn or has holes in it, then it should be fine. If it does, then that shinai shouldn't be used until the sakigawa is replaced...

Tim

PS. By the way.. Was the death of the sensei in germany caused by a improper tsuki or a "failed" sakigawa? I know some people who scoop so that might be a reason why...

[samurai999]

now that i read it again.. tsuki at sandan? isn't that a little late? We don't learn tsuki at kyu levels but we are at least taught mune tsuki to learn how to seme and to control center..

Tim

[bluhawq]

Hmnnnn, I was fighting my sempai with nito and she went for kote, I tapped her shinai down to tare level and went in for men. Lets just say she kept center at tare level very well...yes, it was worse then being killed...she claims it was an accident...I still think it was a direct demo of tsuki ballz waza.

Now THAT is an excellent example of a good 'kote' cut....miahahhaa...argh..sorry..can't help meself!! =P

(just a quick translation..kote in Malay literally means ballz...=P)

[Andoru]

Aahahaha I will have to be extra careful with your "kote" cuts then! :D

[bluhawq]

Aahahaha I will have to be extra careful with your "kote" cuts then! :D

=P..Don't worry..I'll be too busy trying to get through to men...well..gotta keep centre rite??? ;)

[kendomushi]

Here is a new (happened a few hours ago today June 10, 2005 JST) death related to kendo....... though not actually from the practice of kendo. Its in the Mainichi Daily News online at http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050609p2a00m0dm008000c.html

A 13 year old boy doing kendo practice at a shrine put his hands on a 2 meter stone lantern which fell over on to him. The teacher in charge of this junior high school kendo club was not watching practice at the time as he should have been.......

[piggy]

one of my sempais told me that our sensei (Marsten-sensei) was in texas and i dont remember the details but the opponent got stabbed by a broken shinai and died.

maybe its just a rumor...

[nostalgic jedi]

Ohh… Marsten sensei has regaled us with some of the gruesome kendo horror stories… especially that Germany incident.



I was fighting some kid on a Saturday practice and some splinter hit my face. It startled me, and I grabbed his sword and kinda glared at him. Only cause I was a little freaked… The kid felt bad and quickly changed his shinai… so it was okay.

[piggy]

if i put a splinter through somebodys head, i would feel bad.

[bluhawq]

I would feel bad too..not only when it's already inside someone's head, when its flying about in the air during kirikaeshi..especially when the other person is banging on ur shinai for all his worth. Which reminds me, must get new shinai~

[ShinKenshi]

My sensei told that for a time it was allowed to do a tsuki strike to the mune of the do but they stopped when a fatal accident occured. Apparently the person executing the tsuki strike hit so hard that he compressed the other person's chest to the point where their heart stopped. Scary to think that someone could exert that much pressure on a mune to cause that to happen.

[KhawMengLee]

Once...I ate sambal and petai for lunch and then durian for desert. When I sonkyo'd at training I accidentally farted...the whole dojo died.


hahaha...yes, kote...I remember my first kendo class when my Sensei said this..."Hit my kote!!!"...I was trying not to laugh and kiai at the same time...ahh...bahasa crossed into japanese is so much fun...just like how "ChinChin" means 'ring' and "Manko" means "bowl" in Malay.

[JByrd]

I was having a keiko with Hancock Sensei from Obukan when several students suddenly rushed in and stopped the match. Unseen by us, a large chunk of Mr. Hancock's shinai had broken off and gone flying across the dojo. I was horrified when I saw it. The missing piece was so large that the shinai would certainly have failed at the next blow. I am very grateful that other alert kenshi were watching us, and took responsibility for our safety.

[Paikea]

I was fighting some kid on a Saturday practice and some splinter hit my face. It startled me, and I grabbed his sword and kinda glared at him. Only cause I was a little freaked… The kid felt bad and quickly changed his shinai… so it was okay. Stepping back, raising your hand and saying "stop!" or "yame!" would be more polite. Grabbing the shinai might not get the most favorable reaction from some of the people you practice with.

[bluhawq]

Once...I ate sambal and petai for lunch and then durian for desert. When I sonkyo'd at training I accidentally farted...the whole dojo died.


hahaha...yes, kote...I remember my first kendo class when my Sensei said this..."Hit my kote!!!"...I was trying not to laugh and kiai at the same time...ahh...bahasa crossed into japanese is so much fun...just like how "ChinChin" means 'ring' and "Manko" means "bowl" in Malay.

sambal+petai+durian???That's LETHAL!!!

Ah..Kote..my first day at beginners class..couldn't stop smilling~~LOL

[Abris]

all this eye trama..maybe I can find a men with eye guards?

[Lloromannic]

all this eye trama..maybe I can find a men with eye guards?
There are plastic eye guards available from most kendo shops. Here (http://www.e-bogu.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=HIR%2DPRO%2D%2DEYEPRO TECT%2D%2D) is one from e-bogu.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I know that this is a long time after the original posts, but I am fairly confident that the student who dies at Kokushikan did not die during practice. He died in the club dormitories (I've heard he got kicked down some stairs, but this is just a rumour). However, it was definitely in the dormitory, not the dojo. So strictly speaking, it's not a kendo death.

[Kingofmyrrh]

My sensei told that for a time it was allowed to do a tsuki strike to the mune of the do but they stopped when a fatal accident occured. Apparently the person executing the tsuki strike hit so hard that he compressed the other person's chest to the point where their heart stopped. Scary to think that someone could exert that much pressure on a mune to cause that to happen.
This may have happened, but it's not the reason that tsuki to the chest was stopped. It used to be allowed against jodan, but it was felt that it put jodan players at too much of a disadvantage, so they scrapped it.

[Miravil]

Since the topic touches little about safety in conducting tsuki, does any of your dojo has the problem where juniors who are at kyu level or lower trying to show off with their tsuki attack? Do you stop/warn them or do you just let them be?

[Flylkorean]

I dont think you should stop the match at all if they did use tsuki . You should tell them after the match is over.

[ScottUK]

There are plastic eye guards available from most kendo shops.My new bogu has come with one fitted. Any idea on how to stop them fogging up?

[ShinKenshi]

Just get some anti-fogging spray used for eye glasses and such. In regards to tsuki and kyu level kendoka, at my dojo we don't allow anyone to use tsuki until they're at least shodan for safety reasons. Since we're on a college campus we need really can't afford to have one of our kendoka complaining of throat injuries originating from kendo practice.

[Flylkorean]

My new bogu has come with one fitted. Any idea on how to stop them fogging up?

I dont think they should fog up unless you breathe on it.. but how can you breathe on it when its at eye level? Is it because of the humidity of the air?

[bluhawq]

Since the topic touches little about safety in conducting tsuki, does any of your dojo has the problem where juniors who are at kyu level or lower trying to show off with their tsuki attack? Do you stop/warn them or do you just let them be?

*cough**cough*terasanya~heh. I did tsuki once or twice. BUT nobody told me we're not supposed to do it till AFTER I did it. Besides, Nittadai was demonstrating it during their show so I thought why not since its a valid point eh?especially since I was being tsukied twice before that. Rest assured I have not attempted to tsuki ANYBODY since nor have I the intention to do so until I get a dan grade (which wont be till I'm very very old anyway..keke) =P

[ScottUK]

I dont think they should fog up unless you breathe on it.. but how can you breathe on it when its at eye level? Is it because of the humidity of the air?I generate a lot of heat... just enough to power a small town. :D

[Miravil]

*cough**cough*terasanya~heh. I did tsuki once or twice. BUT nobody told me we're not supposed to do it till AFTER I did it. Besides, Nittadai was demonstrating it during their show so I thought why not since its a valid point eh?especially since I was being tsukied twice before that. Rest assured I have not attempted to tsuki ANYBODY since nor have I the intention to do so until I get a dan grade (which wont be till I'm very very old anyway..keke) =P

I've received many tsuki, mostly from sensei and they sometime misses too. when they missed, I suffered bruises, scratches and lost some strain of hairs on the neck. So if that happens, I'm more worried when a junior doing it. I seldom apply tsuki because I don't want to hurt anybody. Only once I manage to do a very strong and right on target tsuki which was by accident anyway... hehe. Are you studying in Sydney?

[JoonShik]

I was readin this thread and had to say somthin about a couple incidents that happened to me with tsuki. During kakari geiko, sensei tsuki me and missed and got my throat, luckly it wasnt that hard. 2nd, during ji-geiko, I tsuki the opponent and then we went to an all out ji-geiko. FYI, I'm 3kyu.

Another incident that happened to somone at a tournament was, #1 got kote on #2, and #2 got pissed. I dont know how, but #2's shinai went up, got under #1's tsuki area, and the shinai pressed into the throat, and took off the men.- Sacramento Tournament 2005, Youth 14-17

[bluhawq]

Yeah. I am studying in Sydney. Just been doing kendo for about a year now. It's been awesome!I'm going back for the hols in January and was hoping to go train at the Malaysian dojo's. Btw, the tsuki I did wasn't hard like the sensei did. It just touched, that's all. But with regards to Joon Shiks story, bout the men coming off, that happened on Monday at training. Can't remember who~It didin't go off all the way though. =)

[Miravil]

We have such incidents too. Usually this will stop the whole practice due to the loud bang of the men hitting the floor. Some sensei says that men is not supposed to come off when it is tied correctly, but I think most likely the tsuki was done brutally which sent the men coming off.

[Shiro7]

im scared to get tsuki'd... i heard way to many people aiming at the mens face and going straight to the eye and killing the person.. Ahhh.. im gonna buy myself an eyegaurd when i get bogu and everything..

[Lloromannic]

im scared to get tsuki'd... i heard way to many people aiming at the mens face and going straight to the eye and killing the person.. Ahhh.. im gonna buy myself an eyegaurd when i get bogu and everything..

Look again, only one person has been mentioned to have died from that.

[bluhawq]

Funny...After I posted my previous msg, I got tsukied yesterday night at training. My men didin't come off but I fell down. We were actually doing uchikomi geiko but with both sides attacking at the same time (there's a term but being me, I forget everything). We were trying to hit at the same time as fast as possible and being me (again) I always turn around after just one step after the cut. So I was basically turning 180 degrees everytime I finish a cut. Hence, by the time I'm finished with one person, my head was already spinning and I couldn't get my balance right. So when this guy tsukied me, I just toppled over. Embarrasing~~

[Shiro7]

Look again, only one person has been mentioned to have died from that.

There was a japanese sensei visiting singapore and he got killed the same way i heard. Another from france, i think someone said it.. i know theres more.. i think there was this dojo in mexico with the same incident too. Not sure i forgot..

[Lloromannic]

i think there was this dojo in mexico with the same incident too. Not sure i forgot..

Ah, you mean Chavez sensei. That happened many years ago. I saw him 3 weeks ago. Will see him again soon, clearly he is not dead.

[ScottUK]

...never seen undead Kendo. Bet it is cool... :D

Glad to hear he's ok...

[Andoru]

Funny...After I posted my previous msg, I got tsukied yesterday night at training. My men didin't come off but I fell down. We were actually doing uchikomi geiko but with both sides attacking at the same time (there's a term but being me, I forget everything). We were trying to hit at the same time as fast as possible and being me (again) I always turn around after just one step after the cut. So I was basically turning 180 degrees everytime I finish a cut. Hence, by the time I'm finished with one person, my head was already spinning and I couldn't get my balance right. So when this guy tsukied me, I just toppled over. Embarrasing~~

Kirby morote tsuki-ed me last Sat at SKC - my arse kissed floor too. A very well-timed tsuki I might add.:wink:

[bluhawq]

Morote tsuki-ed? Is there a difference with just a tsuki? Sorry, my kendo terms are really bad. Took me 2 months to know what kirikaeshi was. =)..

[Andoru]

morote = 2-handed
katate = 1 hand

[Jerott]

I've never heard of one but there probably has been.

[bluhawq]

morote = 2-handed
katate = 1 hand

oOOoo..so there is a difference?I just thought the one-handed one looked more cooler then 2 handed...Didin't know it was two different techniques. =)

[Kumdo-Star]

oOOoo..so there is a difference?I just thought the one-handed one looked more cooler then 2 handed...Didin't know it was two different techniques. =)
either did i :beard:

[Shiro7]

well glad hes ok then, i just dont want to lose an eye or whatever..

[Miravil]

oOOoo..so there is a difference?I just thought the one-handed one looked more cooler then 2 handed...Didin't know it was two different techniques. =)

Cool or cooler, either techniques are lethal. Never forget those feelings. Gakk...

[Andoru]

oOOoo..so there is a difference?I just thought the one-handed one looked more cooler then 2 handed...Didin't know it was two different techniques. =)

Why don't you ask Kirby to "show" them to you? ;)

[bluhawq]

ah, I'm sure he'll be delighted to demonstrate for me on you..hehe =P

[Kapplow]

I'm sure a lot of you have seen the National geographic film on kendo "kendos gruelling challenge: 160 seconds of spirit" in that documentary, there was a 90+ year old kendoka who remained unmatched by his opponents until he collasped on the kendo floor. When they "collasped" it seemed like they meant he died. Has anybody seen this doc or know the fate of the old kendoka?

[Miravil]

I didn't get a chance to watch this documentary. Anyone know how can I get it or anyone have a copy of it?

[Kapplow]

I didn't get a chance to watch this documentary. Anyone know how can I get it or anyone have a copy of it?

Behold! the wonders of search function!
http://kendoshop.com/images/8dan.wmv

[Miravil]

Behold! the wonders of search function!
http://kendoshop.com/images/8dan.wmv

Thank you, thank you, thank you.... :smiley:

However the download is really long, half hour for only 2 minutes of the clip with loads of buffering. I need to go to a faster server for this. :)

[Paburo]

perhaps you need to right-click the link, save as... and then watch offline without buffering.

it worked for some of us :D

[Twobitmage]

I always wondered why my sensei would make us stop every few minutes during kihon to check out shinai, when we should be checking it before class anyway, but then he told me the story of how he splintered his shinai and it pierced his opponents eye X_X.

sometimes paranoia is a good thing

[Miravil]

perhaps you need to right-click the link, save as... and then watch offline without buffering.

it worked for some of us :D

Thanks for the tips Paburo. Manage to download it in the office, will view it this weekend at home since this is a 46 minutes clip. :smiley:

[YangJin]

As for Tsuki strikes *or pokes*, my seniors told us that only when we reach a certain rank (kyu) or a certain level before the sensei will teach us. I think most death occurs through bad tsuki strike *something which I am inspired to do, no, not bad tsuki strike, I mean targetting tsuki*

I think we long we EVERYONE check to make sure their Shinais doesn't have splinter, oil their shinais once in awhile, check equipments to make sure there are no glitch and bugs...I mean...no holes or lousy equipments, then you should be fine.

As much as it is our opponent's responsibility to hit properly so we won't die, it is also our responsibility to check our own equipments. *nod nod*

I suffer from a heart problem, I just hope I won't die of heart failure.

[YangJin]

I mean 'as long as EVERYONE', sorry.