Zen and Kendo

[Daniel]

Hello,

I was interested in Zen long before starting Kendo last January. I have tried to apply some concepts by myself to the daily practice. I am also an old soldier, so I can recognize which parts of the training are truly needed per-se and which ones are repetition to build muscle-memory and mind-less reaction.

Yet, I am still hoping to find at some point some more chances to discuss the connection of Zen and Kendo. I am afraid that some of the younger newbies see it as a "kickass with a sword" sport-thing, and the older students are much more senior than me.

I realize that there is MUCH more than the sport part, I just wonder at what point it will surface. In fact, it concerns me more than any promotion or permission to finally get a Bogu.

Any guidance out there?

Thanks!

Daniel

[mystic_kendoka]

most kendo experts with 50 years exp. say they started real kendo after 30 years..

[Daniel]

Touche'... still, I was not necessarily looking for instant Satori (just add Kendo) but a general idea of where "It" resides...
After re-reading Herrigel (yet again) I have a general idea of what I am looking for, except that I know I should not look, and "it" will surface.
I DID have One (actually two) experiences where I felt that I was just a conduct, and IT hit the Men. Enough to let me know "it" is floating around there, just waiting until I stop pretending not to be looking for it....
It would be encouraging though to be able to discuss it with others. Alas, most appear more interested in a faster Men, or the loudest Kiai.
I guess once I learn not to seek that knowledge, and I become truly mind-less "it" will drop by and say hello more often.
I wonder if one can really achieve kikentaichi without some sort of purposeful purposlessness....

but enough babbling...

Thanks for the reply

Daniel

[Hotei]

Wow. . . A post I actually fit into. :)

I've been a (Rinzai) Zen practitioner for about 26 years now. Zen is amazingly easy to understand, once you stop trying to "understand" it. I say that with reservation as that comment is the single most powerful thing you can say to have 50 people tell you how they became "Enlightened".

Zen has nothing to do with shaving your head, giving up your belongings, or sitting in seiza. Zen is something that you, quite literally, practice with every breath.

Zen is much like Kendo, in that it's not the same thing to any two people. Can you imagine if everyone fought the same way? Nobody would ever win. It's the same thing with any spiritual path; pick what works for you and keep it; toss the rest.

Unfortunatley, the only thing I'd be able to do in a post like this would be confuse you, so I'll give you a short list of small books that will sort of wake you up to what Zen actually is. . . Or isn't.

Any of these books will be available in a better library, or you can buy them, but most folks find it better to read them first and then buy the ones they love.

"Zen Speaks; Shouts of Nothingness (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385472579/ref=olp_product_details/104-5545726-8264754?%5Fencoding=UTF8)" I've probably given more copies of this wonderful little book to friends and foes than would be comfortable for me to remember. The artist is actually a cartoonist in China (the ancestral home fo Zen), while the translator is an American. The book is comprised of small, bite-sized zen parables in cartoon form; they ran in Japanese and Chinese newspapers several years ago. I cannot speak highly enough of the power and value of this "cartoon" book.

(Others in the series include Zhuangzi Speaks (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691008825/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books), The Tao Speaks : Lao-Tzu's Whispers of Wisdom (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385472595/ref=pd_sim_books_3/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books), Sunzi Speaks : The Art of War (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385472587/ref=pd_sim_books_2/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books), Wisdom of the Zen Masters (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385487436/ref=pd_sim_books_5/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books), and Confucius Speaks : Words to Live By (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385480342/ref=pd_sim_books_4/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books))

Anything by Thich Nhat Hanh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807012394/qid=1086562233/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books) will be very simple to understand. Hanh is a Vietnamese Zen priest with an unbelievable past. He's been nominated for the Nobel prize just about every year he's been eligible for it.

Anything by Charlotte Joko Beck (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062511173/qid=1086562326/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5545726-8264754?v=glance&s=books) with my fave being "Nothing Special: Living Zen" Joko (It's a title) Beck is a Zen Teacher, but she doesn't fall into any of the traditional categories. She is one of the quietest and most powerful speakers you'll ever have the pleasure of hearing. You just have to read her to understand why.

And there I'll stop. Grab a couple of these, or pay the postage and I'll send you mine, a couple at a time. I used to own a spiritual library in my town, and Have amassed quite a few worthy titles. You can email me at one@mindbodyspirit.us if you would like to "check a few out". :)

Good luck; you're about to start learning about yourself in ways you cannot imagine. Some things will be obvious. Some things will take a couple of years and maybe a boot to the head for you to realize.

[ben]

Hi guys,

Yes, a good thread title. But in the end, what is there to say really? I am also interested in Zen. My teacher is Soto-zen of the same lineage as Shunryu Suzuki roshi, so there might be some differences in outlook btw Hotei and me. :)

First of all, for a beginner in either Zen or kendo, the most important thing is practice. Dogen zenji said that practice doesn't lead to enlightenment, it *is* enlightenment (shusho itto - practice and attainment are one). Hence the mistakes you are making, the constant self-talk, the frustration: this is all, also, "it". Buddha-nature is inherent, not conditional.

I'd disagree with you slightly Hotei, I'd say Zen is very much to do with sitting. If you want to know kendo, you go to a dojo and train. If you want to know Zen, you go to a zendo and train as well. Zen training is sitting in zazen. This is, as I said, my Soto bias (no koan, just sitting).

I used to devour books on zen and kendo. I still keep an eye out for them. Recently I found one with a doozy of a title-- "Samadhi: Zen, swordsmanship and psychotherapy" by Mike Sayama. Sayama was a student of Omori Sogen in Hawaii and the book seemed like it was going to be right up my alley. Well it did have a lot of interesting stuff about psychotherapy. It also had some good drawings showing how to sit in zazen. But what I was looking for about zen and swordsmanship wasn't there.

I did ask my Zen teacher once about how I should try and integrate my kendo training into my Zen training. Stupidly I opened my mouth and said "Osho-san, they say kendo is called 'zen in action'". To which he matter of factly replied, "Everything that is moving is Zen in action." Um, I knew that... :$ So how should I try to integrate the two? "Just train hard, eat well and get enough sleep."

Having said all that, I'm still looking forward to the discussion. ;) I'm sure not-I will contribute if he's lurking.

b

[Hotei]

I'd disagree with you slightly Hotei, I'd say Zen is very much to do with sitting. If you want to know kendo, you go to a dojo and train. If you want to know Zen, you go to a zendo and train as well. Zen training is sitting in zazen. This is, as I said, my Soto bias (no koan, just sitting).I don't think you've disagreed at all, and you make a very valid point, though in my experience, I don't know anyone that sits zazen in seiza. I can handle half lotus forever, but seiza drives me nuts. (One of the ladies from my temple had me over so that she could perform the tea ceremony in honor of Rohatsu, and ended up giving me a little bench so I could sit still :) )

I do think it's worth point out that, while zazen is the most important tool to reach your goal, it does not preclude other tools. You don't have to drive a car to get to the next town, but it sure does make the trip easier.

The only real (tangible) difference in our experience would likely be exactly what you pointed out in regard to koan study. I sit zazen 45 minutes every morning, and have, in the past, studied many koans. I would hazard to say that your experience is similar, minus the koans? I've read numerous articles and books on Dogen Zenji, and he was more of a fan of parable over koan to make a point. I can really appreciate that. I prefer parables, myself.

Direct Suzuki lineage? That's saying quite a lot about your zendo. Have you read any of the books I listed? Would you recommend any that I (we) might read to gain a better knowledge of Soto? I've read Masunaga's "Primer", but it was a little dry for me. My Dharma Teacher says it just didn't have enough pictures. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your point of view; I was hoping that someone else would chime in.

<Gassho>


p.s. I love your avatar.

[Daniel]

Speaking about which, how do you add an Avatar(a) different than the ones offered by the forums (fora)

Daniel

[ben]

Hotei,
<gassho>
I also prefer half-lotus or Burmese style if I'm a little stiff on a cold morning. Half-lotus took me about three years to get to! Seiza OTOH I find quite easy :D My only goal in zen is to sit in full-lotus without pain. One day...

Re: books. I have read Thich Nhat Hanh and highly recommend him. As you say, he is a towering figure. He is also good for non-Buddhists as he is strong on inter-faith dialogue. The others I don't know but the cartoons especially sound good!

For insight into the flavour of Soto, Suzuki Shunryu roshi's books "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" and "Not Always So" are great. You may or may not find him inspirational on a first read. His books come into their own however when you find yourself "stuck" in your own practice. His turn-of-phrase and use of metaphor wouldn't always make sense to someone not practicing I don't think.

Dogen's "Shobogenzo" is the main work of the Soto canon. Much more interesting than the "Primer" which you mention, which I also find quite dull and proscriptive. Look out for his essay entitled "Uji (Being-time)". It'll fuck with your head. In a good way. :D

BTW have you read either of Brian Victoria's books? "Zen at War" and "Zen War Stories" are essential for anyone interested in Zen (I'm sounding like an amazon.com review!). Many disciples, both Japanese and Westerners, have had to do some serious re-evaluations of their beloved roshi since finding out he was involved in pre-War militarist (and even anti-Semitic!) propaganda. It is sobering to realise that more of the Zen popularisers in the West than not have such dark sides when it comes to association with either German or Japanese fascism. "Ken zen itchi" had a whole different slant during WWII...

b

PS - go to "edit avatar" and you'll find a little box with a "browse" option that lets you upload an image from your hard drive. Must be 50x50pixels or less. :)

[Zato Ichi]

I started kendo with the idea of repeated putting myself through hard training to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment.

However, I have changed dojos due to various moves. In my current dojo the teacher says that this other part will come on its own. Althought I agree with this I think the teacher needs to set the correct attitude, and I am not sure he knows how.

My (serious) question is: is it possible to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment through kendo or should I enrol in the nearest zen dojo?

What stops me at the moment is that I have no empathtic connection to zen, but I do to kendo. With your collected years of experience, your advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

[Zato Ichi]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

[nonamehandle]

I started kendo with the idea of repeated putting myself through hard training to reach some form of buddhist enlightenment.

Thanks

just wondering,

what do you plan to do once you reach enlightenment?

[Zato Ichi]

just wondering,

what do you plan to do once you reach enlightenment?
Following the example of tesshu, I intend to get very drunk.

[ben]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

No-one can.

b

[nonamehandle]

thread continued...

What I am trying to say is: am I on the right path, and who can tell me?

Following the example of tesshu, I intend to get very drunk.


then, it is quite obvious where your path should lead to, no need to ask us whether you are on the right path or not?

[not-I]

I'm sure not-I will contribute if he's lurking.
Yup, i've been lurking. I just wanted to see what others had to say before immediately jumping in like i usually do. This is a topic i've been dealing with for a while and i'll try to contribute something after i get back from the zendo tonight. :sleeping:

gasshô

[not-I]

The ultimate goal of zen and kendo is the same - a realization of original emptiness.

Emptiness? My zen teacher once told me that i might understand what it really means in fifty years. And my sensei just keeps bashing me. Bash both of them back! Look them in the eye and see what expedience means!

[kendosa]

Zen in Kendo?

What about simply hitting only men in every sparing.

I'm telling you it's going to be easy.

Why? Because mind's not still.

[Hotei]

Oooo - "Zen Flesh; Zen Bones"

Though ". . . Beginner's Mind" is a classic.

Ultimate contemporary Zen flavored movie? (You're gonna' hate me after this, and I'm sorry. . .) "The Matrix"

"Stop trying to hit me, and hit me" The whole movie stinks of Zen.

Sorry I'm not more active in the discussion - I came down with laryn. . .Larryin. . .Laeron. . . A sore throat last night and I'm not really feeling up to snuff.

I'll start a thread of Parables later. Or you can. Or nobody can. I'm goin' to the can. Ahhhh, Zen.

[JSchmidt]

Ultimate contemporary Zen flavored movie? (You're gonna' hate me after this, and I'm sorry. . .) "The Matrix"

"Stop trying to hit me, and hit me" The whole movie stinks of Zen.


Nah, it stinks of cheap philosophical cliche's stolen from just about every -ism and religion you can think of:D

Jakob

[nonamehandle]

Zen in Kendo?

What about simply hitting only men in every sparing.

I'm telling you it's going to be easy.

Why? Because mind's not still.

in comparison,
hitting women is a much more difficult task for me,
as you put it, my mind's not still

[Hotei]

Nah, it stinks of cheap philosophical cliche's stolen from just about every -ism and religion you can think of:D

Jakob
Aaaah!! You hate me!! Aaaah! Oh. . Wait. . . There is no you. There is no me. It's all good. :)

[kendosa]

I agree with you.
It's more hard to keep it still when it's close to end.

in comparison,
hitting women is a much more difficult task for me,
as you put it, my mind's not still

[not-I]

There can be no doubt that with regard to their ultimate goals and aims, the sword and Zen are identical. […] Zen is the sword of the mind while the sword is the Zen of the sword blade...For a warrior to discharge his duties he must necessarily clarify the origin of life, and transcend life and death in order to reach the absolute realm...This is the reason the destiny of the sword is inevitably connected to Zen. --Omori Sogen, Ken to Zen



Short answer: Zen and Kendo are complementary Ways to realize the Original State of Emptiness, the former explicitly, mostly through absolute Samadhi, the latter implicitly, and mostly through active Samadhi.



Long answer: It seems that threads on Zen and Kendo often digress into discussions of Zen Buddhist practice rather than focussing on the links between the two practices or the “Zen of Kendo,” which is what Daniel was originally asking about. I have been guilty of this myself - see the “No-mind” thread in this forum, which, besides digressing a lot, also has a lot of info on this issue. Also, it is important to make a distinction between Zen Buddhist practice and Zen per se. The former is specific to Mahayana Buddhism as a formal means to realize the latter, which is a non-sectarian, universal experience. “Samadhi” is a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the subject-object relationship is dissolved. In his book Zen Training, Katsuki Sekida identified two kinds of samadhi, absolute and active. The latter is sometimes experienced in deep meditation and the latter is what is often called “flow,” i.e. being completely unconscious of oneself while engaging in an activity, following psychologist Czikszentmihaly’s book. James H. Austin’s seminal Zen and the Brain addresses these distinctions and much more from a neurological standpoint.

As both a long-time practitioner of Rinzai Zen of the Myoshin-ji lineage and a kendoka, these questions are of central concern to me, and are also ones that I’m researching for my master’s thesis in philosophy. The problem is that there are at least two approaches to the issue, and they are at odds with each other.

Academic approach: Contemporary rationalist Zen Studies scholars (e.g. Bodiford) are keen to point out that there is no institutional connection between Zen and Kendo, but only tenuous historical links, and that the “psychological” aspects both seem to share are too vague to justify positing a deeper connection. While I agree with the first assertion, I beg to differ with the second, and strongly disagree with the last. The problem here is that modern academic scholarship focuses on historical and sociological facts (usually only found in texts) and tends to bracket out “non-rational” or esoteric influences, phenomenon and theories.

Spiritual approach: Zen luminaries (e.g. Omori) and master kenshi (many Hachidan in statements that often appear in Kendo World) often point to a certain kinship, if not identity, of Zen and Kendo, evidenced by the often-sited saying, “ken ken ichinyo” (“the sword and Zen are the same”). The problem here is that Zen is traditionally considered to be a “teaching beyond words and letters” and Kendo is a martial Way that aims to go beyond physical technique and simple psychology. For both practices, personal experience is crucial to understanding, and intellectual knowledge will get you nowhere in either. This is why the utterances of Zen masters or masters of Kendo can seem so cryptic. They are “there,” i.e. “here,” and we are not.

Hence, in order to form a rationally comprehensible assessment of the links between Zen and Kendo it would seem well-advised to travel a middle way between academic and spiritual/experiential approaches - that is, one based both on historical and organizational investigation and on first-hand “field-work” and texts of/interviews with recognized masters of both practices. I’ll try that for the master’s thesis, but here, I’ll just attempt a quick short-list off the top of my head (please feel free to add to it or criticize).

The Heart Sutra (a short treatise recited every day in a Zen monastery) states “Form is no different from emptiness. Emptiness in no different from form.” This forms a nice basis for a comparison of Zen and Kendo.

Form:

-Mokuso in kendo is basically a very short period of zazen, which in zen practice is done for 25-45 minutes, usually in the lotus position rather than seiza, but with exactly the same hand position, known as the mediation mudra – it goes back to India.

-Highly formalized/ritualized “banal” activity, e.g. putting on your left kote first, sitting down in seiza with left leg first. The rules in a zen monastery range from how to enter the zendo (left foot first, of course), to eating, to how to take a shower.

-Strict hierarchy in both a kendo dojo and a zen monastery

-Both kendo and zen practice emphasize a particular bodily posture, especially a straight back and neck, but also a way of moving.

-Similar status of a sensei or roshi as ones who have travelled the Way, and now guide others. The “guide” status is crucial, as the Way can only be travelled by oneself.

-Straight approach to doing everything – no tricks or roundabout ways. My zen teacher once saw me doing suburi and later said, “Hmm, yes – straight ahead (imitating men-uchi) Keep doing that – that’s an excellent practice.” If you try any funny stuff with your sensei, you’re liable to get a beat-down, and if you offer a smart-ass answer to a koan, your roshi will simply boot you out of sanzen.

-Ji-geiko with a sensei and sanzen with a roshi are very similar practices – both are private sessions where your current understanding is tested and you are prodded along the way. You are expected to give your utmost.

-Highly stressful environment during kendo keiko or a zen sesshin, mainly aimed at coaxing the utmost from everyone out of their deep unconscious.

-Emphasis on maintaining bodily center (“hara”) in all activities.
-Full commitment to an engaged attack/activity. "Sutemi" is comparable to "dana" (giving), which in zen is understood as giving the self.


Emptiness:

The ideal in both Zen and Kendo is to attain the state of original emptiness, especially realizing the emptiness of one’s empirical self. Glimpses of this are found in “mushin,” the state of “no-self” or “no-thinking,” sometimes appearing in kendo practice (say with a perfect men-uchi that you’re only aware of having done after the fact) – active samadhi, or during zen practice after meditation, especially after absolute samadhi. Truly understanding (not just intellectually “knowing”) that one’s “self” is devoid of any permanent essence and not separate from “other” is enlightenment. Enlightenment is essentially the realization of one’s true self, which is no-self, i.e. no big deal, at least in theory. As a well-known Zen master once said, “Paradise lies right beneath our feet. But we have to go through Hell to realize it.”



Some good books on Zen (the practice as well as the experience):

Shunryu Suzuki Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind (New York: Weatherhill, 1970)
Katsuki Sekida Zen Training (New York: Weatherhill, 1975)
Omori Sogen An Introduction to Zen Training (Boston: Tuttle, 2001)
James H. Austin Zen and the Brain (Cambridge: M.I.T. Press, 1998)
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience (New York: HarperCollins, 1990)

Some good books on the Zen of Kendo:

Takuan SohoThe Unfettered Mind: Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master (Kodansha America; New Ed edition (March 1, 1988))
John J. Donohue Complete Kendo (Boston: Tuttle, 1999)
Minoru Kiyota The Shambhala Guide to Kendo (Boston: Shambhala, 2002)
Darrel Max Craig The Heart of Kendo (Boston: Shambhala, 2003)
Taisen Deshimaru The Zen Way to the Martial Arts (London: Rider & Co. 1982)
John Stevens The Sword of No-Sword – Life of the Master Warrior Tesshu (Boston: Shambhala, 1989)
Winston L. King Zen and the Way of the Sword (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993)
Hiroaki Sato The Sword and the Mind (Woodstock: Overlook Press, 1985)

Some good advice:

Forget the books, go practice!

[Hotei]

Ummm, yeah. . . What he said. :)

And not-I? I just pasted a little gold star by your name. . . On my monitor. . .

[mathiasb]

Great post Not-I! please do let us know when your masters thesis is finished! I sure would like to read it... :)

Forget the books, go practice!
And this is really some advice i need... just can't let those books be... :confused2

[whitechameleon]

well first off id just like to say hi to everyone on here....... this thread is really the only reason i decided to join the forum so far haha......

anyway i've found it incredibly interesting as it has sparked a lot of the things i've been taught during my training, especially the teachings of one Professor Kudos from Trinidad who came to Barbados to do a Nature Fist Kung Fu seminar with my dojo (since then weve branched to teach that style as well....) but im rambling now.............. i'm at work so i dont have the time but when i get home im actually going to read through that uber-post up there ;) and hopefully one or two of the books you guys spoke about.......

but for right now i have what may seem to you all to be a fairly obvious questoin (or rather one with a fairly obvious answer....) but could one of you explain to me exactly whats you mean by seiza and zazen and what the difference is? i have an idea right now but i'd rather hear from you all..........

see in our linjitsu dojo we call "zazen" the sitting stance that we use for meditation........... wheras the same is referred to as "seiza" in the shotkan and aikido dojos that i have trained it.............. i think the "mistake" is that one refers to the sitting while the others refers to the state in which you put your mind while doing the sitting....... but before reading this post i thought we were simply pronnouncing seiza differently.............

so if any of you could help out a "noob" thatd be great :)
cheers

Matthew

PS since i know none of you have ever heard of Linjitsu heres our old website that hasnt been updated in like 2 years.......
http://linjitsu.tripod.com

[Wout]

seiza is just a way if sitting, I think

zazen is a state of the mind

someone plz correct me if I'm wrong

[whitechameleon]

yeh that sounds like it......... i dont know much japanese (hardly any apart from b4k4^ni lol..................)...... but thats the way i thought it was too.... any one else?

[not-I]

Seiza is simply the kneeling sitting position with your butt on resting on your heels, a very common Japanese way to sit.

Zazen is "sitting meditation" of the zen buddhist tradition, which is usually done in the lotus position, although it can also be done in seiza.
This link http://www.mro.org/zmm/meditation/ gives you a rough idea of the various positions, although the woman depicted is not sitting very well - her back and neck are not straight.

This http://www.ichibata.org/images/zazen-daa1.jpg is more like it.

Once the posture is more or less correct, the real challenge of zazen starts, which is a matter of the mind. It is easy to sit in the zazen position without doing zazen - in fact, that's what most practicioners do most of the time. If zazen was easy, we'd all be enlightened by now.

Briefly, zazen is a kind of meditation lasting anywhere from 20 to 45 mins. that does not focus on an object, but manifests a clear, thought-less and empty state of mind. Counting exhalations or concentrating on a koan are sometimes used as means. (See the "no-mind" thread for more info).
Many martial arts do a brief period of "meditation" before and after practice sitting in seiza and based on the zazen position, although it is known by many different names. In kendo we call it mokuso.

Hope this helps.

[dotnet]

There are two books I really enjoyed concerning Kendo and Zen: One is Eugen Herrigel's 'Zen in der Kunst des Bogenschiessens' (I don't know the english title) mentioned by Daniel already. It's about kyudo but the 'way' is very similar to kendo. The other is:

The Way of the Sword: The Tengu-Geijutsu-Ron of Chozan Shissai.

also called:

Zen and Confucius in the Art of Swordsmanship.

by Reinhard Kammer. It might be difficult to purchase but a library might have it. It was originally published in german but there is an english translation. Don't expect a guide on what to do when you want to improve your swordsmanship .... ;-)

Another book written by a zen master about zen and swordsmanship [2 chapters] is Suzuki, Daisetz T., Zen and Japanese Culture. I believe the book was originally composed in English. Suzuki also adresses and discusses some of the titles mentioned by I-not such as:

Takuan Soho: The Unfettered Mind: Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master.

In this book Suzuki adresses mushin a lot. Although reading certainly cannot replace training and has _some_ shortcomings in respect to zen, these three books were among the most inspiring books I found so far. But since I can't refrain from reading YET, I am going to look at some of the books mentioned earlier as well.

Cheers,
dotnet

[not-I]

...But since I can't refrain from reading YET, I am going to look at some of the books mentioned earlier as well.
Hi dotnet, thanks for augmenting the book list.

Suzuki's book slipped my mind, but i also think it's a classic. His essays there on haiku and the way of tea are interesting too.

The odd thing about Krammer's translation is that it's called Zen in der Kunst, das Schwert zu führen in German (at least my copy), but Shissai was a neo-Confucianist who opposed Buddhism for political reasons. Nevertheless, the gist of what he says seems to be exactly the same as what Takuan advises - attaining a state of no-minded naturalness.

It's more of academic interest, but this link features some good essays, including a critique of Herrigel's book by Yamada Shoji. Suzuki receives critical treatment too. http://www.vladk.com/zenwebsite/zenessays.html

Many of the books i mentioned have been criticized too. Thing is, books can be academically picked apart or just read as books, which is always more inspiring, regardless of their faults.

Reading can support our practice of kendo or zen or whatever else and there's nothing wrong with it as such. I'm not giving it up any time some either.:wink:

My point was that a lot of knowledge is intuitive rather than intellectual and can only be gained through practice. It's a platitude, but: You can only really learn something by doing it.

[ben]

...Many of the books i mentioned have been criticized too. Thing is, books can be academically picked apart or just read as books, which is always more inspiring, regardless of their faults...

I agree, however Herrigel's book has forever been tainted for me since learning of his early and apparently enthusiatic embrace of National Socialism upon his return to Germany. DT Suzuki too, is a somewhat problematic character, though not for the same reason. I do find his writing disarmingly elegant, and his insights are wonderful. However now that I have some little personal experience, I find his conclusions are a little too sure. Perhaps that is just his temperament. In Japanese folk parlance, he might be called a "smoking lamp".

b

[Usagi San]

I agree, however Herrigel's book has forever been tainted for me since learning of his early and apparently enthusiatic embrace of National Socialism upon his return to Germanyb
Oh yeah? And have you have read this:
"The mith of zen in the art of archery" by Yamada Shõji (translated by Earl Hartmann)?
You'll find it in http://www.koryu.com/links/koryu.html this text it's a pearl, a real pearl. Things sometimes are much more than meet the eye... and I don't say this in a zen way of... you know... well... forget it.
Everybody should read it.

[not-I]

DT Suzuki too, is a somewhat problematic character, though not for the same reason. I do find his writing disarmingly elegant, and his insights are wonderful. However now that I have some little personal experience, I find his conclusions are a little too sure...Good points, Ben.

I think Suzuki's problem here was that he was trying to walk a fine line between scholarship and sageship, and often falling short of either.

While his academic credentials are indisputable, the version of Zen and Zen culture he presented to the West was informed by a Rinzai bias and a tendency to portray Japan in nativist terms ("you'll never understand us") in a kind of reverse Orientalism.

Although he was neither a Zen master, nor even an ordained monk, he always endowed his prose with the sagely tone of "one who knows," thereby avoiding the need to justify certain conclusions.

As with many other Japanese authors of his generation, there are also many questions about the degree of his involvement in supporting wartime militant nationalism. (As with Herrigel, this brings up the whole question of work/biography - can they be separated?)

Nevertheless, Suzuki's work was hugely influential in the West, and he rendered a great service to inter-cultural dialogue and to Zen. But i also tend to read his books with a similar mixture of enjoyment and reservation.

If i'm looking more for inspiration and wisdom, i'll browse/re-read older primary texts like those of Takuan, Hakuin and Dogen and try to allow their insights to seep in, rather than analyzing them, which is what i meant by "reading books as books."

[dotnet]

The odd thing about Krammer's translation is that it's called Zen in der Kunst, das Schwert zu führen in German (at least my copy), but Shissai was a neo-Confucianist who opposed Buddhism for political reasons. Nevertheless, the gist of what he says seems to be exactly the same as what Takuan advises - attaining a state of no-minded naturalness.


the most recent publication is called 'Zen in der Kunst das Schwert zu führen' but the title of the first publication was 'Die Kunst der Bergdämonen' - a translation from japanese into german (altough I don't know what 'ron' means). I don't know why they changed it but maybe the word 'zen' was thought to sell the book better.
This earlier publication has more information than the most recent one. About the time-peroid, the author, zen-buddhism and confucianism, etc. Both are out of print by now. But as you said Shissai criticized zen-buddhism and is incohernt with the denial of zen-buddhism when laying down his views in his essay. This is also discussed in the introduction to Shissais essay (about 58 pages out of 165).

I am certainly going to look at those links you posted.


Many of the books i mentioned have been criticized too. Thing is, books can be academically picked apart or just read as books, which is always more inspiring, regardless of their faults.


I agree. I stumbeld upon Herrigels book by searching the net and read the book within a day. I haven't read about any shortcomings of Herrigel or the book itself. But I check this essay later on.


Reading can support our practice of kendo or zen or whatever else and there's nothing wrong with it as such.


That is currently the way that I am handeling this issue. But I also (intuitivly, i.e. I have no proof) believe that at a certain stage or simply by practicing this is not necessary any more. But I also believe that for most of us (and I include myself) it sometimes outlines the path more clearly. I'll see how it develops.

Still, thinking about it, I am unsure if reading is necessary. I can imagine that an inspiration by practicing kendo could be more intense and therefore be more clear. The insight through reading should not become a substitute for insight by practice. I always used to enjoy reading but with kendo I am a bit helpless. I sometimes get the feeling that reading about kendo and related topics is giving me an idea of what is to come and what I should do/follow. But in the end it might spoil the experience I am supposed to achieve by training.

Furthermore: If Zen and Kendo are closly related (I presume this is correct), would a Zen-Master oder Hachidan recommend a book to supplement practice ? Maybe the Hachidan, I don't know. But a Zen-Master ? I don't think so. But then again my experience is close to zero in that respect.


My point was that a lot of knowledge is intuitive rather than intellectual and can only be gained through practice. It's a platitude, but: You can only really learn something by doing it.

Exactly. Henceforth my training goal is: Practice as often as you can and give 100% all the time. Reading without practice is not going to improve your kendo.

To take this to a higher level (i.e. not only kendo but your life): If knowledge/decisions should be gained/based upon intuition or intellelect/reason is a very interesting question for itself. In other words, how much should intuition play a role in our life. Especially for men ;-)(Isn't it annoying when a woman is basing her point on intuition in a discussion ;-)). In my life intuition hasn't played a great part. Or at least I didn't employ it conciously.

But too much thinking isn't good for my kendo. For my life as well ? I know there can be an endless information gathering process with no outcome, no decision. If you decide intuitivly you don't have this problem. The first gut-feeling hasn't really disappointed me but to employ reason isn't bad either. It is _illogical_ to abandon reason ;-). If I have no clue in certain areas, I use reason first. When I have a decent insight into the matter I am starting more an more to incorporate intuition. It helps to speed up the decision-making process. But to rely solely one intuition ? I don't think I can do this right now.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. Right now, I caught up in conflicting ideas. At least they seem conflicting to me. Hopefully I will see all this more clearly in the distant future myself.

cheers,
dotnet

[not-I]

[would a Zen-Master oder Hachidan recommend a book to supplement practice ? Maybe the Hachidan, I don't know. But a Zen-Master?
That "oder" finally gave it away. I was ready to believe you're a(n) American/Australian/Brit/Canadian/Indian/NewZealander/etc. in Germany. Your English is virtually impeccable. Are you studying "Anglistik?" :)

To answer your question (and from experience concerning the latter), no.

Right now, I caught up in conflicting ideas. At least they seem conflicting to me.
Through reason we gain knowledge. Through intuition we gain wisdom. We (especially men) tend to use reason too much. But simply acting from a gut-feeling may not always be wise either. Experience is necessary here too.

Experiment and try to find a balance. But don't get yourself tied up in conceptual knots. Do some suburi or some zazen.

[dotnet]

That "oder" finally gave it away. I was ready to believe you're a(n) American/Australian/Brit/Canadian/Indian/NewZealander/etc. in Germany. Your English is virtually impeccable. Are you studying "Anglistik?" :)

Thank you [bow] but I am studying something else. My mind must have slippen when looking for the right term ;). Hachidan is used infrequently in Germany. Commenly it is 'achter Dan'. But I suppose you know this anyway.

May I ask what languages you translate into/from ? German/ Japanese + x ?


Experiment and try to find a balance. But don't get yourself tied up in conceptual knots. Do some suburi or some zazen.

Suburi/ kendo in general are doing a great job. I feel more awake than before practice. Relaxed, with a clear mind. Physically I might be finished but mentally I am very much awake after practice. I have asked some fellow clubmates but it appeared they didn't feel like that at all.

I was actually about to start a poll on this question. [How do you feel after practice ?] I still have to figure out how it works.

Cheers,
dotnet

[not-I]

Hi again, dotnet, sorry for taking so long to respond.

May I ask what languages you translate into/from ? German/ Japanese + x ?German-English, English-German. I have started learning Japanese, but time constraints and laziness interfere.

Suburi/ kendo in general are doing a great job. I feel more awake than before practice. Relaxed, with a clear mind. Physically I might be finished but mentally I am very much awake after practice. I have asked some fellow clubmates but it appeared they didn't feel like that at all.Right on! Keep doing it. Don't worry about what the others think. You are not a freak. Or maybe you are. But then, anyone that sticks with it is too. :wink:

I was actually about to start a poll on this question. [How do you feel after practice ?] I still have to figure out how it works.Just start a new thread (prob. best in "training" or "concepts" fora) and you'll see a poll option somewhere in the new thread window. Then just fill out the poll options and write an intro. This forum thrives on new contributions.