Straight Heart

[Wark 1978]

I have recently been given a couple of pearls of wisdom about kendo that have made a big difference, I think, to the way I do kendo so I thought I'd share them.

At one of the dojos I practice at, I’m lucky enough to have a hachidan sensei who speaks English well. He always spends time coaching me and at the end of the session offers me advice.

There is one thing that he said to me which has had a great effect on my kendo. At the end of one session he told me that it was important to keep my body straight. The words he used were “Straight sword, straight body, straight heart. That is kendo.”

He then went on to say that if you lean your body to one side to make hitting kote easier or move your shinai in another direction other than straight that, “That is not kendo. That is just hitting.” He also said that during real combat, you owe it to your opponent to strike with a straight sword as he will die quicker and therefore “Go to paradise quicker.”

I already knew that it's fundamental to keep your body straight but this time he has made it stick in my mind and I think about more. Maybe that is what makes him a great sensei.

Also, at another dojo I go to, I get a lift to the train station on the way back from an English speaking sensei. He also gives a lift to another old hachidan sensei, who knowing that I am a beginner, always give me advice during the journey with the other translating.

He told me that in kendo　威風堂々(ifuu doudou) is very important. ifuu and doudou are 2 words that basically mean the same thing but are used together. They mean "majestic" or "dignified" and this is how he said that I should try to be during kendo.

I'm sure that to some people on this forum what I have said is old hat but to me, after only practicing for exactly a year tomorrow no less, these words have been very helpful. I hope they are to you to.

[Zato Ichi]

Michael,


I think you are in a fairly unique position. Not many people get to train with hachidans who speak good english.

(When I was in Japan I trained with a hachidan who spoke Japanese with a thick dialect. I had no idea of what he was saying, drunk or sober.)

I think it would be helpful to many people on this forum if you added to this thread other things that your teachers tell you. Over time you could build up a repository of knowledge that will benefit everybody.

Best of luck!

Z1

[hamish]

That's why we translate and publish a lot of stuff from those very same 8th and 9th dan sensei. We already have a growing repository of knowledge, please support us so we can continue to build on it. (ie. If it really is important to you, buy our magazine and books, please!!)

regards

Hamish
http://www.kendo-world.com/magazine/issues.php
http://www.kendo-world.com/kw_publications/index.php

[Zato Ichi]

That's why we translate and publish a lot of stuff from those very same 8th and 9th dan sensei. We already have a growing repository of knowledge, please support us so we can continue to build on it. (ie. If it really is important to you, buy our magazine and books, please!!)
Hamish,

I have been impressed by the contents of the magazine and I think it admirable to build a common body of knowledge.

However, what I take issue with is that, in your post, you seem to be dissuading someone from passing on what they have heard from high-level teachers as it conflicts with your interest to sell books and magazines.

I appreciate you need support for your channels, including this excellent forum, but surely you're not asking people not to post this type of commentary?

Z1

[JHusch]

Hamish,

I have been impressed by the contents of the magazine and I think it admirable to build a common body of knowledge.

However, what I take issue with is that, in your post, you seem to be dissuading someone from passing on what they have heard from high-level teachers as it conflicts with your interest to sell books and magazines.

I appreciate you need support for your channels, including this excellent forum, but surely you're not asking people not to post this type of commentary?

Z1
Hmmm... I didnt see it that way at all. I think all Hamish was trying to say was it is great to use this resource (Web Forum) to gather this knowledge, but a lot of this has already been done with the print magazine, and if you wish for this knowledge base to continue to grow, support KW in there endevors.

[misterkurukuru]

Here we go! “Straight heart” is good and all, but hmm lets see, you cant just have tunnel vision and go straight. Tada tsukonde ittara dame desu! 8 dan and other higher dan sensei do a different brand of kendo because they are higher ranking and usually pretty old. They have so much experience, that they understand timing, ashi sabaki, and all that other good stuff. The guy isn’t just swinging straight; he is reading your eyes, your body, and your kuse/habits. He also knows his own body, his own ability, and his kuse. He has seen over a million opponents doing kamae in front of him. Yes, for the hachi dan it’s as simple as going stragith, but for most kenshi, we are not ready to do that kind of kendo.

I guess it all depends on why you are doing kendo. I can do sports kendo and Shinsa kendo aka “nice” kendo. This allows me to win at tournaments and go up in rank at the same time. If your opponent’s kihon is better then yours, you will not be able to beat them with straight hits. If this doesn’t bother you, I guess you can keep attacking with the same moves and have your ass handed to you the whole time. Isn’t being able to be flexible with your kendo a good thing? Don’t good kenshi adapt?

I guess if you think that the samurai in “the last samurai” are noble for fighting with a straight heart, I guess that’s your thing. If I only had a katana and my opponent had a gun, I am re-stargazing!!!!!!!! When we are just using shinai I guess its okay to hold onto these beliefs because no one gets hurts, but ask yourself: if it were for keeps (meaning mortal danger) would you still have tunnel vision, not adapt, and go straight in just to be killed?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmmm... I didnt see it that way at all. I think all Hamish was trying to say was it is great to use this resource (Web Forum) to gather this knowledge, but a lot of this has already been done with the print magazine, and if you wish for this knowledge base to continue to grow, support KW in there endevors.
In fact, I think Hamish and Alex have gone way beyond the call of duty in providing this forum and a number of resources, free of charge and with very minimal plugging of their magazine. I took his comment to be a gentle nudge towards similar good resources available in the magazine.

[Charlie]

When we are just using shinai I guess its okay to hold onto these beliefs because no one gets hurts, but ask yourself: if it were for keeps (meaning mortal danger) would you still have tunnel vision, not adapt, and go straight in just to be killed?

Interesting points, Mr. Kurukuru. I don't have much of a response but I will think about it. Question: isn't shinsa kendo more of how you would fight in shinken-shobu, a real match with swords? And are some elements of shiai kendo inappropriate for shinken shobu?

Just thinking out loud. Here's another: why do great kendo players/teachers start the same way, concentrate on shiai kendo, learn all sorts of personalized little habits, but in the end up doing the kind of "straight heart" kendo described above?

Also, you speak Japanese, yes? Can you elaborate on the "straight heart" saying? Is something being lost in translation?

[Munnin]

I support those who support me, that is how strong communities get built. So I will be joining my local club ($120 for 2 months + shinai and bokken) and once that’s paid off then a subscription to Kendo world.

[misterkurukuru]

isn't shinsa kendo more of how you would fight in shinken-shobu, a real match with swords? And are some elements of shiai kendo inappropriate for shinken shobu?

I have been told by some of the sensei in the US that give out high ranks that its more about showing that you have mastered certain techniques and showing that you have body control and discipline. Like for anything higher then 5 dan you only need one or two really nice hits, but they have to be really kihon based. Kamae…seme…seme(oh not to close!!!) and then swing nicely when your seme has broken your opponents kamae and concentration. I like your spin on shinsa kendo a lot!

why do great kendo players/teachers start the same way, concentrate on shiai kendo, learn all sorts of personalized little habits, but in the end up doing the kind of "straight heart" kendo described above?

I was always told to do age appropriate kendo. Meaning you only do the type of kendo that you are physically and cognitively able to do. People will mature with time, and so will their kendo. Doing shiai kendo as you stated helps a person, “learn all sorts of personalized little habits.” This allows you to become aware of yourself and your opponent. These little tricks help you to do higher level kendo! I guess it’s a natural progression, and if you are lucky enough to realize what’s going on, then you can attain a higher rank.

Straight heart…yes…I guess I will start by saying that everyone interprets and translates language differently. This is a hard one because it all depends on your kendo philosophy. Depending on whom I am practicing with, I can sense and unspoken/unwritten set of rules that we are going to follow during our 5 minutes of keiko. I would say that who ever diverges from those rules does not have a “straight heart.” Wow this is harder then I thought!!!! I guess it can be, don’t hit as if you are running away…believe in your hits…if it was a real katana they would be dead, so don’t worry about what happens after the hit. Maybe that’s the mentality???

I just don’t want people to be rigid and have 1 pattern kendo. I don’t know if the sensei was saying masugu na kokoro or honki de uttsu, shinken-shobu, or majime ni yare kono boke!!!!! but I know he doesn’t mean limit your waza and yourself by following only one set of rules. A person is only as effective as the number of effective waza they have! would you rather be dead and noble or alive and clever?

[Charlie]

I know what you mean. Here's something I have been thinking about. Kendo is honest. Yes, there may be tricks, but to an extent there's simply nowhere you can hide and little you can do _consciously_ to "fool" the other player. And yet, the literature of the martial arts - I'm thinking specifically of Sun Tzu here - advocates deception in combat. How is this employed in kendo? Is it even employed consciously? I know personally my kendo is very direct. I might do something to frustrate my opponent's timing, like harai attacks, but I have very few "tricks." Is this what is meant by straight kendo? Is it more technical, as well as metaphorical?

One thing I see higher level players doing in shiai is letting their left foot turn inward in an attempt to get a bit more forward motion. I think this must also lead to the right hand and shoulder coming foward a bit more, "reaching" for the opponent a bit. This, combined with the smaller, quicker hits of shiai, might make for bad shinken-shobu habits. Is this what is meant by "straight?"

[hyuna]

Here we go! “Straight heart” is good and all, but hmm lets see, you cant just have tunnel vision and go straight.

"Straight" could mean to do the most direct and effective thing, so it doesn't necessarily mean to always be the same or only do basics. That interpretation would make sense in context of allowing your opponent to "go to paradise quicker."

However, I suppose what was meant is a question for the sensei who said it.


If your opponent’s kihon is better then yours, you will not be able to beat them with straight hits.

If your opponent is better than you, perhaps they deserve to win.

Maybe it is important to remember that the other advice from the original post is that one's kendo should be "majestic" and "dignified." What is dignified about winning through a cheap trick?

Isn’t being able to be flexible with your kendo a good thing? Don’t good kenshi adapt?

It is possible to adapt your way right out of doing kendo. If the goal is simply to win, perhaps you should just kneecap your opponent in the parking lot.

[Old Warrior]

"What is dignified about winning through a cheap trick?"

If a point is awarded properly, by definition, how can it be a cheap trick? While I am not a Kendo expert, I have developed the sincere belief that much of Kendo involvs deception. Is deception a cheap trick?

[Karaken]

"What is dignified about winning through a cheap trick?"

If a point is awarded properly, by definition, how can it be a cheap trick? While I am not a Kendo expert, I have developed the sincere belief that much of Kendo involvs deception. Is deception a cheap trick?
OW, I think a deception is considered a cheap trick ( pretend to hit Kote and go for Men ). A cheap trick doesn't work for aggressive kendokas ( aren't we all urged to Attack? ) because they have no cencept of defense ( we all should ) or high level kendoka who can read your moves. It might work once or twice in shiai with similar level. We'd rather think of Seme. The concept of Seme isn't simple ( many threads devoted to the subject ) but it's a way of forcing your opponent to do what he/she doesn't want to do therefore present an opening for you. Seme doesn't necessarily have a pre-determined target so there is no deception - It's just intimidating and uncomfortably radiating FORCE in the air..

Center

[hyuna]

Is deception a cheap trick?

Sometimes, but not necessarily.

I would say that using gedan to deceive your opponent as to distance is not a cheap trick. Nor would be disrupting your opponent's timing by perhaps changing the timing of your strike, or the pacing of your keiko. Or feinting a strike at one location and changing to strike a different location.

I would say feigning an injury would be a form of deception that I would call a "cheap trick." Similarly, doing illicit things to ellicit sympathy, like flirting with your opponent merely to gain advantage. One could very reasonably say that it should not matter to your opponent, and that they should take the opportunity as it arises. But, I do not think that we practice kendo to learn to ruthlessly take advantage of other people's compassion.

That wasn't really the kind of "cheap trick" I had in mind, though.

You can flip your head to the side to avoid receiving a men, or drop your arm and catch a do hit in your arm. Those things are legal and prevents scoring. Are such techniques really in the spirit of kendo? If the only way for you to prevent being scored on is using one of these methods, can you say that your kendo is better than your opponent? The reality is that you would lose shinken shobu almost immediately and it is merely an artifact of the sport that you may survive long enough to get in a lucky hit.

Perhaps we should take up quietly calling each other by nasty names and making fun of their relations during tsubazerai. Or, you can reach down and grope under their tare. It might disrupt your opponent's concentration and allow you to win. We can say that your opponent should not be affected by such tactics because they should seek fudoshin, so maybe it is even a logically reasonable tactic. Is it good kendo? If you win through such a tactic can one legitimately say that it is because of your skill at kendo? There is a philosophical difference between your opponent losing a match and your winning a match.

[misterkurukuru]

Okay better kendo then someone else…. well you wouldn’t do cheap tricks like stepping on hakamas or left hooks during tsubazeriai, if you thought you could beat the person with your regular kendo. WAZA ARE NOT CHEAP TRICKS! AAAANNNDD it’s up to the judges to control how much cheap crap is going on during a match!

Just because someone is better then you, it does not mean that you have to give up during a match. All humans make mistakes and can be tricked (tricking people is not cheap); you just have to wait and take advantage of the opportunity when it comes!

It’s all about kendo philosophy. You wouldn’t believe some of the things I have seen people do before and during a match to win. And you know what; these people are often glorified by all the idiots that do not see what’s going on. There are people that care about doing “nice” kendo, and there are people that don’t…and to stay on top (in shiai) sometimes you have to step on a hakama , bust the left hook, or hook your oppnent’s shinai out of their hands to win. Shiai kendo is not nice/ clean kendo. Shiai kendo is cut throat and ugly. Shiai isn’t for everyone!

Maybe shiai kendo is as SHINKEN as you can get.
Higher level kenshi know that a straight hit is the easiest and most effective it.
Actually I think straight men is as tricky as you can get!

Charlie, I think it’s a metaphor. I enjoy reading what you have to say!!!!!!!!!

[JSchmidt]

As KuruKuru is saying, there's different types of kendo, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. Shiai-kendo is still kendo..it's just different than what you normally see the hachi-dans doing.
Hell, I've practiced with a hachi-dan (who had, I believe just passed the day before) and he was more than happy to drop down to my level and 'have a bash'. Great fun.
You have to find out what you want to get out from kendo. I think to lock yourself down to a specific type of kendo from an early level is cheating yourself from a lot of good experiences, but that's your choice.
I do, however, think that shiai-kendo should be 'clean', but that's is just as much up to the shinpans to regulate that.

And yeah..straight men is about as tricky as it gets...can't think of any thing harder in kendo :)

Jakob

[hyuna]

[...] well you wouldn’t do cheap tricks [...], if you thought you could beat the person with your regular kendo.
[...]
Just because someone is better then you, it does not mean that you have to give up during a match.
[...]

But that is exactly the point. If you thought you could win through "proper" kendo, you wouldn't resort to "cheap tricks." That means if someone comes to use those tactics, then they have already given up the discipline of kendo. A person may win the match by stepping on a hakama, but that is not winning through strong kendo, and it is an admission that their kendo is inferior. Where is the dignity in such a victory?

I absolutely agree that one should not give up. But, not giving up means to use proper kendo. And, yes, I agree that waza are not tricks. I am not speaking of proper waza.

Anyway, if you do not use proper kendo in shiai, how do you ever know if your kendo is better or worse? You might think it is worse but if you do not try, you won't ever find out. So, resorting to tricks because you are unsure if you could win through your regular kendo is giving in to fear and insecurity. To take this route means your spirit has already been broken. It is to deny your own potential out of fear of losing the match.

I think it is best to be straight with yourself: if your is kendo is stronger, you will win and if your kendo is weaker, then you should lose. To use a trick to win even when one's kendo is weaker is just a way to fool oneself into feeling good despite one's weak kendo--"I got the trophy so I must be a strong kendoka." But that is nothing more than being a sore loser. If you are strong, fine, but if you are not, face up to it with dignity and overcome it with hard practice.

That's just my opinion.

[Old Warrior]

"Seme doesn't necessarily have a pre-determined target so there is no deception - It's just intimidating and uncomfortably radiating FORCE in the air."

As you know, I take Kendo seriously and I make a real effort to attend 3-4 practices a week. I study with a well known 7th dan who is serious and a fine teacher. I can't believe that we practice kote men over and over - and it is just "a cheap deception". I also cannot accept that there is something illegitmate about making every cut start the same so the opponent believes it is a men cut when, at the last instant, it becomes a do cut or perhaps kote to a raised wrist.

Please explain to me why there can only be one true Kendo. It strikes my beginners understanding that there is room in Kendo for people of limited athletic skill and mobility and that there is no shame in using what you have, as long it is dignified and within the rules. I think the Master started me in Nito because he absolutely knew that given my bad knees, age and limited mobility that I could never become good at traditional footwork. So, he found a place in Kendo for me, that has been immensely satisfying. Am I doing great Kendo? - I'm sure the answer is no.

I understand there is a difference between the ultimate goal of perfect Kendo and the reality of what each of us manages to do. I just have trouble accepting that there is something illegitimate or wrong with the way we seem to be going about learning the art.

[Masahiro]

In fact, I think Hamish and Alex have gone way beyond the call of duty in providing this forum and a number of resources, free of charge and with very minimal plugging of their magazine. I took his comment to be a gentle nudge towards similar good resources available in the magazine.

yes, I second Neil's post! Thank you Kendo World team. I shall support you by subscribing to your magazine soon!

[Masahiro]

"Seme doesn't necessarily have a pre-determined target so there is no deception - It's just intimidating and uncomfortably radiating FORCE in the air."

As you know, I take Kendo seriously and I make a real effort to attend 3-4 practices a week. I study with a well known 7th dan who is serious and a fine teacher. I can't believe that we practice kote men over and over - and it is just "a cheap deception". I also cannot accept that there is something illegitmate about making every cut start the same so the opponent believes it is a men cut when, at the last instant, it becomes a do cut or perhaps kote to a raised wrist.
Quite truthfully, I do get the impression that you take kendo very seriously. And I also don't think there's anything wrong with starting every cut the same (ex. nice big swing) I was taught to do so. I actually think it is "good kendo"

Please explain to me why there can only be one true Kendo.There may be several different paths to the top of a mountain, it matters not which you choose to take. But there will only be one true mountain top for the mountain you are climbing. When you do get to the top, if you have not been detered away by the troubles along your path that is. .. ... you will see the same moutain top may have many different views. As your experiences differ from others, due to your personal perception and the path you chose, your view from the moutain top will differ.

It strikes my beginners understanding that there is room in Kendo for people of limited athletic skill and mobility and that there is no shame in using what you have, as long it is dignified and within the rules.
Yes, and rightfully so. To each his own we may say. .. ...but rules are a set of "can do's and can't do's" set and agreed upon by a certain number of people. Imagine this, if you should be given the chance to have a 2 minute bout with "yourself" in shia-geiko one day, and there is no referee(s) to determine what is a correct strike, and what is not. How will you win yourself? Perhaps it is you who are able to dignifiy yourself and the rules you choose to play by.

I think the Master started me in Nito because he absolutely knew that given my bad knees, age and limited mobility that I could never become good at traditional footwork. So, he found a place in Kendo for me, that has been immensely satisfying. Am I doing great Kendo? - I'm sure the answer is no.
You can not do "great kendo", you may only try to make your kendo great. And the closer you get to making your kendo great, the greater your kendo is. But do say "I do great kendo" would be silly, it would be the same as saying "I am great in bed!!" Sounds kind wrong doesn't it? after all it's not something you can say for yourself. Nor is it something anyone else can judge for you.

I understand there is a difference between the ultimate goal of perfect Kendo and the reality of what each of us manages to do. I just have trouble accepting that there is something illegitimate or wrong with the way we seem to be going about learning the art.
There is nothing wrong with the way you and your Master are "going about" learning the art. At least not from what i've read in your manifesto. But of course we all know, it is easier to run straight up the hill than it is to jogg backwards up.

[misterkurukuru]

Sadly you missed the point….these people do not care, and they are reward generously for cheating. What rank are you 3 dan?? Your rank means nothing!!! Your profile says that you are in the US. Have you seen all the under handed $hit that goes no in the ASUKF??? I know they have eyes watching KWF but I don’t really care. If you are in a position to change the ASUKF then change it, other wise you ideals mean nothing to people that fight in high level tournaments. Like I said, shiai isn’t for everyone. If you just do kendo to have nice kendo good for you, but don’t enter tournaments…you will get ripped apart by people that have no kendo morals. PEOPLE THAT WIN IN TOURNAMENTS AND REAP THE BENIFITS OF THE ASUKF DO NOT CARE ABOUT CHEATING!!!!! HEEEELLLLLOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can rant all you want and nothing will change, shiai is just not pretty, shiai kendo isn’t for everyone! Only a select few are cut throat and nasty enough to survive. If you are not one of these people, get out of the way. If you want to change the ASUKF and the way we do tournaments, become president and you will have my full support!!!! If you are not in a position of power, dude check yourself like the rest of us: Peter rabbit would be wise to stay out of kendo politics!

Just except the fact that there are different kendo philosophies. None are right or wrong, it’s all about what works for you!

I think Jakob’s post is hands down better then mine!
Just read it and you will know what’s up.
sorry if i assumed that you were part of the ASUKF :ko:
if you are not, then i guess you can be as idealistic as you want to be

[Charlie]

Thanks for your nice comment, Mr. Kurkuru, I enjoy your posts, too.

I have a question. How does one cheat in kendo? Can one really cheat? I have to confesss that in my entire short kendo career (almost 6 years) and only about 15-20 shiais or so, I have never seen anything I would regard as cheating or a cheap trick. The worst thing I think I may have seen is stalling or aggressive, non-tai-atari shoving. The stalling is usually tolerated with a smirk (i.e., a person taking his time making a small adjustment to his kote strings); the shoving is usually either stopped by a shinpan's reprimand or just dealt with. What is this cheating you speak of? I'm in the Midwest Kendo Fed region, by the way, part of the All U.S. Kendo Fed., and the tournaments have been very clean. Is this experience not the same elsewhere?

I agree that tactics are not cheap tricks. A feint to kote and then a men is not a cheap trick. It is deceptive, but it is a legit waza. Same with dropping to gedan to confuse maai.

[Charlie]

Oh! I remembered two other things I wanted to share.

1) I was at a seminar last year with high-ranking sensei, and everyone was divided by rank. I was in with the nidans and sandans. For our part of the seminar we worked on some basics, not starting over but adjusting them. For example, it was explained that most of us probably aimed our kensen too high, and had too much strength in our right hands. Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that to start the seminar, Ariga-sensei (not Taro Ariga but I think his name is Keiko Ariga?) explained (paraphrase): "By now you have developed strong basics but you have also developed several individualized habits, some of them borne by participating in shiai or practicing for shiai, and you should try to rid yourself of these habits and bring yourself back to straight kendo." This is guiding my thinking in regards this straight kendo ideal. I can't remember if Ariga-sensei said "straight kendo" but I know he urged us to shave off some of the quirky individualistic things we might do and tighten our game up. He also said, by the way, that this does not mean that a person cannot do an individual style of kendo. Since he said it, I have been wondering, what aspects of kendo are the same, and what stylistically different? It must be really subtle.

2) I forgot who said this, I would have to consult my journal, but I think it was Hidenori Iwasa-sensei (6th-dan, renshi AFAIK). He came to Detroit one year and we had a Q&A with him at the banquet after the taikai. He said that after he won the All-Japan Championship, he went to his regular practice the very next morning. And his teachers beat the crap out of him. Do you think they beat the crap out of him with shiai-style kendo or "straight heart" kendo? I don't know the answer but I suspect it was the latter. Iwasa-sensei makes a similar point in this interview:

http://www.midwestkendo.com/iwasa.htm

At my job, there are many 8th dans. They beat me up all the time. It's not fun. It hurts and it wears you out. It is the life I chose though. I feel blessed to be in such a position. Believe it or not, I never won a tournament as a kid, in high school, or even in college... My first title of significance is actually the All-Japan championship.

From never winning - to winning the big enchilada! Wow! There's hope for me yet! :wink:

[Karaken]

"Seme doesn't necessarily have a pre-determined target so there is no deception - It's just intimidating and uncomfortably radiating FORCE in the air."

I understand there is a difference between the ultimate goal of perfect Kendo and the reality of what each of us manages to do. I just have trouble accepting that there is something illegitimate or wrong with the way we seem to be going about learning the art.OW, Masahiro made very good points so I'll be brief.

Ikkyu can make almost perfect men and so can Hachidan. The difference is Ikkyu probably need non-moving practice dummy to make one whereas Hachidan can do this with another kenshi with 30-50 years of experience behind it.

It's what you choose. There's nothing wrong with moving your head to avoid ippon during shiai but it's not dignified Kendo according to my sensei. It's only acceptable. Stepping on Hakama will be down right LOW in my opinion so I won't go there. When we're talking about STRAIGHT HEART inside, no-one knows that except yourself. It also means LOOKING GOOD Kendo outside.

So there's nothing wrong with Nito or Jodan - As Neil always says, you don't need Fumikomi to have right Ki-Ken-Tai ichi..

If you plan to attack men but go for Kote as a ploy - nothing wrong with that. But if you really go for Kote opening but it opens Men instead so you go for Men, I think that's superior Kendo. But only you know that ( well Hachidan might read you like his palm but who knows ). It is really up to you. Some says Shiai Kendo is different - But some choose to do same Kendo regardless of the situation - they may not win - but everyone know who the true Kenshi is - They win everyone's respect. Either way ( Trophy or Respect ), it's your choice.. The ultimate goal might be winning both.

Center

[hyuna]

Sadly you missed the point….these people do not care, and they are reward generously for cheating.

I understand that point, it is just irrelevent.

Look back at where we started. I said "what is dignified about winning through a cheap trick." Is your point that it is dignified because other people get "generously rewarding for cheating"???

I believe you are trying to say that when you compete at a high level most people have to choose between being "dignified" or "losing" while high ranking people do not have to make this choice because they are alread skilled.

That is all well and good except that is only talking about a very small number of people. Few, if any, of us are competing at the highest echelons, and I doubt that any of them are reading this forum for advice on how to improve their kendo. For the majority of us in the real world, there is no chance to compete at that level, tricks or no. So, I ask you, what good is it to bring up what goes on there?

As for the rest of us who are not one of those who "are cut throat and nasty enough to survive," we can choose to do straight kendo in shiai because, frankly, our ability to go to the World Championship is not affected in the least by whether or not we win some random tournament or not. We will not be sacrificing our kendo careers by losing a match. This does not affect, and is not affected by, anything that goes on in the upper tournament levels.


As for the matter about my rank, who says it means anything? I am a student trying to improve his kendo, just like everyone else. I would like to just sit back and watch but, actually, I do not have that luxury since I don't know what the absolute right way is. My hope is that the sensei who are reading this will give me some sign, hopefully they will correct me if I am writing nonsense. And even if not, perhaps conversations like these will help me find some better understanding. But if I just sit back and say nothing, I won't ever find out if my thinking is correct. It is just like keiko; I could sit back and watch but unless I try my waza out, I will never know if they are any good. Anyway, why do you even bring it up when you don't tell anyone your rank? Why do you criticize my credentials without discussing your own? Ad hominems are one rhetorical form of the sort of trick I have been arguing against.

[Masahiro]

Some says Shiai Kendo is different - But some choose to do same Kendo regardless of the situation - they may not win - but everyone know who the true Kenshi is - They win everyone's respect. Either way ( Trophy or Respect ), it's your choice.. The ultimate goal might be winning both.

Center
I think I shall add that goal to my "to do list"! Winning both respect and Trophies. However long that may take huh? muhahahahahaha.

[DCPan]

Hi everyone,

I can’t help by pipe in, as this is an issue one will wrestle with at some point, if not always.

Until lately, I’ve been using the motto “I will do correct straight kendo”.

When I don’t meet with success in my matches, there were always a plethora of “explanations” available to me, when I don’t truly feel beaten.

“That guy is just tapping me, that strike wouldn’t cut. He was just playing for points.”

“There was no riai, it was a lucky shot….”

“That was a head-dodge…my nuki men would have killed him if I was using a shinken.”

“That kote strike had no hasuji, he’s just going stick-tag with the flat of his shinai”.

“That was a trick, it’s not honest kendo”.

“He’s just a sport guy, there’s no tamashii in his waza….”

I can belabor the point, but you get the picture.

In retrospect, I think I bereaved myself of many learning opportunities because I’ve hid behind the “banner” of tadashii kendo.

The Japanese sword will cut. Do you think it would matter whether the blade hamstrung you from a light tap or split you from head to toe?

IMHO, regardless of how the other guy got you, he got you.

Your training is about your self-improvement. How the other guy beat you is his concern. How you can prevent him from beating you is your concern.

If your opponent beat you with honest kendo, thank him.

If your opponent beat you with cheap trick, thank him.

Either way, your opponent just showed you a weakness in your kendo.

Just a trick you say? How good is your kendo if you can be beat by a trick?

Besides, how many of us have tried a trick and have it backfire?

As much as I hate to say it, it also takes guts and skill to pull off a trick. I tried a trick to try to get a point back at the last taikai, and got my behind handed to me in less than 10 seconds after I lost the 1st point. When you see a top competitor pull off a trick to make it work, do you see the hours of training behind his basic so he could pull it off?

On the issue of straight, on what level of straight is the sensei referring to? Straight heart? Straight mind? Straight movement?

If you watch how top competitors move, they’re “straight” in that they take the opponent’s centerline in their movement, but their movement is not necessarily straight in the process of achieving that.

In my personal experience on the receiving end, I’ve noticed that most of the top gun’s “shomen” strike is really about one shinai width off the centerline of my body, and the shinai is coming down about 15 degrees off perpendicular…so, it’s really more like hidari-men than shomen, IMHO. However, the fade to the right is so subtle that you have to “think straight” if you want to achieve the kiri-o-toshi effect of riding over the opponent’s centerline & sword.

It is my opinion that this slight fade off center is achieved through “hard practice” & “physical experience”, not thinking. If you think you are going to do 15 degrees offline, you’ll be way off. When you try your hardest to connect in doing ai-men exercises, your body will eventually learn to fade and make it happen.

On another level, I think the straight also refers to honestly engaging your opponent. If you try to sneak in a blow without establishing a relationship with your opponent, it’s not “straight” kendo, no matter how “straight” you move.

Personally, I am now interpreting “straight kendo” as trying to win with full earnestness within the official rules of Kendo.

In my mind, I am showing the greatest amount of respect I can to my opponent, by trying my best to beat him anyway I can. (I’m curious to see where I’ll end up….)

As pointed out in F. J. Norman’s “Fighting men of Japan” book, unlike Chivalry, the idea of a “fair fight” in Bushido is that “all is fair in love and war”.

FWIW, I’m not saying “winning is everything.”

All I’m suggesting is that as some of the most valuable lessons in kendo comes from re-evaluating why you don’t succeed, don’t you have to try your utmost to win in order to have that learning opportunity?

Sincerely,

[DCPan]

Thanks for your nice comment, Mr. Kurkuru, I enjoy your posts, too.

I have a question. How does one cheat in kendo? Can one really cheat?

Hmm...for the most part, I'm pretty much not aware of the cheatings that are going on, as I only attend local tournaments. I'm curious as to what kind of cheating is going on too....

The only real "cheating-like" thing I've seen is people "suddenly" have their men loose, doh himo loose, need to re-tye their tenugui, and etc when the opponent has the upper-hand so the break interrupt the opponent's moral/rhythm/concentration...but I have to say it was hard for me to figure out how they manage to make things come loose at such convenient moments....

:smiley:

[misterkurukuru]

4 dan
kendo 14 years
2nd junior youth AUSKF championships Cleveland, Ohio
2nd senior youth Auskf championships las vegas, nevada
did try out for LA because I decided to go to Japan instead ( i didnt even tryout, so its not like i went to Japan because i didnt make the team).
what have i done lately...i confess not much, but i did get 3rd at the PNKF championships last year in the 4 dan and up group. I fought one memeber of team Hawaii and one member of team Canada( they did not use cheap tricks and neither did I). the top 4 at this tournament were me and 3 members of team Canada...not to shabby eh?
I hope I gave you enough info.
sekai ga chigasugiru kamo ne...

I went to Japan for an event and I practiced with the event photographer. At that time I had no concept of seme and my kendo philosophy was even more juvenile then it presently is. Anyways, he kicked the crap out of me with his kamae and seme. He did nothing fancy, and he did not use any waza. He was a 6dan that was going to test for 7 dan in a few weeks and I was in my 3rd year of 3 dan. I was helpless against is “clean” kendo. I respect clean kendo, and I do believe that in the ends clean kendo can beat out shiai kendo, but you have to be 7-8dan to be able to do that kind of kendo.

WOW DAIVID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will tell everyone at Covina tonight about this awesome post!! I am sure they will be amazed and proud! I agree with David, I too once hide behind the banner of “clean” kendo and I would complain about “if that was a real blade…” but the shinai is not a real blade, and you shouldn’t even let the other guy get that close to hitting your men, kote, do, or tsuki anyways. Great Post David! Thanks for chiming in!

[misterkurukuru]

Tricks... there are a lot of cheap shinai otoshi from tsubazeriai moves that involve hooking and grabbing the other person's shinai.
Knuckle kote, hitting your own do to make it seem like you hit the other guy, stepping on hakama, left hook to the face, using girl shinai. A lot of shinpan do the cheating…but that’s a whole other thread that doesn’t need to be awakened from the dead.

[hyuna]

Your training is about your self-improvement. How the other guy beat you is his concern. How you can prevent him from beating you is your concern.


Thank you for your post.

I agree with you completely. It doesn't matter what the other person does to you to win, if they beat you, they beat you and you should be grateful for the lesson.

To be clear, my argument wasn't about how you receive, it is about how you give and why you do it in that way. If someone pulls a trick on you and you lose, that is your fault. But that does not mean it is right for you to compromise your form to score on the other person. If you know the right way, you should do the right way.

I understand your point that if you can score with a trick, maybe your opponent isn't that good after all. However, I think that is a dangerous justification. As I said originally, you can justify yourself right out of playing kendo this way. "If he is really so great, he should have good zanshin even in the parking lot before the tournament! So by beating him up I am helping him improve his kendo!" This is an extreme example, but I think it is a slippery slope. The issue is that, as you said, there are rules and we must play inside of them. But rules are not black & white, a rule against "rough play" has a lot of latitude. Is it against the rulebook to beat someone up outside of the court? No, but it is still obviously wrong. If you rely on the judges to decide what is right and what is wrong, then anything that can be done without the judges seeing is "right." That is also obviously incorrect. Again, this has nothing at all to do with what your opponent does to you. I am speaking only of how you choose to do your kendo.



I hope I gave you enough info.


Thank you very much for telling me about your background. It seems like you and I have very different experiences. You have placed in more tournaments than I have ever even participated in. The sensei I had while I was starting out never mentioned tournaments at all, and I was entirely unaware of when they happened and what the outcomes were. My motodachi could have been world champion, and I wouldn't have known anything more than how much better than me they were. So, I was brought up to believe there is one kind of proper kendo that we work towards. Even if sometimes we might be sloppier for any number of reasons, there is still no question about what it "should" look like. Perhaps that is part of why our perspectives are so different.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tournament kendo is certainly a different experience than your regular practice. Our dojo is in the middle of nowhere, so we don't get much chance for tournaments. Outside of our own little tournament we have each year, I've been in only 5 tournaments. It shows - I typically get creamed, and often by points that I would more or less ignore in regular keiko. I agree with David, every point you lose is an opportunity to learn, even the bad ones. Kurukuru talks about the knuckle kote, but if it gets called it's still really your problem to deal with - two inches over, and it would have been a legitimate kote. Is there any difference in your defence losing knuckles or losing kote?

Similarily seiken vs nanken - if you're straight, your opponent is dodging back and forth, whips his shinai back and forth and then tags your kote, do you blame his shiai-style kendo or the fact that you weren't able to deal with it? You've got to understand this stuff a little to deal with it, and theoretically you should be able to deal with it from a centred, straight kamae.

A lot of this non-ideal shiai kendo is based in youth and speed. As you get older, you can't count on your speed making up for your lack of technique or seme. That's why everyone's kendo naturally migrates towards the centre as we age. But athletic ability is part of the equation, too - it's no more useful for you to blame losing on someone being faster than you than it is to blame it on him being sideways or on the judges. We've all seen old sensei mop the floor with young hotshots - work on getting to where they are, not criticising the hotshots.

Kinda rambling but hope I helped...

PS As I think about this more, in my own keiko I think I should pay more attention to those points that I lose that I dismiss as not good enough. I should dismiss my own points as not good enough, and start trying to figure out why I lose even the iffy ones.

[DCPan]

The antibiotic theory of technique.

For the use of antibiotics, there’s 1st line antibiotic, 2nd line, etc. You don’t want to use the last resort antibiotic when a 1st line antibiotic will serve because you don’t want the disease to build-up resistance to the antibiotic.

For kendo, it’s not quite the same, but I like the analogy.

The straight men-uchi is the primary technique. If you don’t have a good primary attack, you can’t go get the point when you need it. In many ways, the kihon-uchi (men, kote, doh, & tsuki) can all be considered a primary attack if you initiate the attack by the book.

Secondary technique are shikake-waza. You harai or osae or maki or whatever first before making the attack.

Tertiary technique are oji-waza. You draw out the opponent’s attack to neutralize it in your own counter-attack.

Quaternary technique are sutemi-waza…all or nothing last ditch effort.

Then, you have tricks.

IMHO, practicing “tricks” in keiko is counter-productive in my opinion because that is a time when you should be polishing your primary attack.

However, I believe there is a place for “tricks” in shiai, when you’ve run out of your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th line attacks.

I remember a splendid shiai in 1998 Nisei Week tournament. It was one of the final or semi-final matches in the yudansha bracket, individuals.

One kenshi was from OCB. The other kenshi was from the kumdo association.

Maybe it was just me, but it appeared to me that there was more than personal pride on the line.

The exchanges were dynamic and awesome. A couple of encho later, it was apparent that both kenshi were running out of ideas. They just couldn’t get the best of each other.

Finally, the kenshi from OCB took a chance and took jodan from to-ma.

The other kenshi froze for a brief moment, shocked at the kamae change.

The kenshi from OCB immediately returned to chudan and sashi-men his opponent for the win. I suspect the kenshi probably didn’t do jodan on a regular basis as he returned to chudan before taking the ippon, but I never had the chance to verify with him afterwards.

Was it a trick? Was it appropriate? You tell me!

[DCPan]

I will tell everyone at Covina tonight about this awesome post!! I am sure they will be amazed and proud! I agree with David, I too once hide behind the banner of “clean” kendo and I would complain about “if that was a real blade…” but the shinai is not a real blade, and you shouldn’t even let the other guy get that close to hitting your men, kote, do, or tsuki anyways. Great Post David! Thanks for chiming in!

:nervous::nervous::nervous:

You know, they really should have a "aww shucks, blush blush" icon. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the compliment, Mr. Kurukuru. It was a pleasure watching you guys in action at the last PNKF...brings back old memories.

Say hi to Moocow, Tenken, and the rest of the gang for me!

BTW, did Tenken's brother ever get a nickname?

:rolleyes:

[darren]

I was reminded of a passage in the "Art of War" by Sun Tzu

-According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.
-All warfare is based on deception.
-Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our
forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the
enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him
believe we are near.
-Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder and crush him.
-If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
-If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
-If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
-Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
-These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.


I think Sun Tzu would agree in that training in the most direct and cleanest methods of attack is valuable. But it seems clear that he saw defeating your opponent BEFORE you attack is most important. So it is with kendo.

It's pretty cool to read wisdom that is possibly 2400 years old and still apply it today.

We have to decide how we want to remember winning our battles. Some freaky trick that gets you a kote every now and again if your opponent hasn't seen it before? Or an undeniably clean big men scored from strong kamae and crushing seme?

I prefer the latter even though it is the hardest to come by.

[webjunkie401]

"Was it a trick? Was it appropriate? You tell me!"

I personally would not call this a trick. From what my sensei has told me a huge part of kendo is being able to throw off your opponents mind set, and to kill his spirit. If by going into jodan no kamae you can do this then, by all means do it.

A friend of mine on the fencing team that used to listen into my sensei's lectures (until we stopped using the fencing room for the sake of our feet) has said. You shouldn't let your mindset be thrown off by anything your opponent does. If you freeze or are fazed, its not because your opponent did it, its because you allowed yourself to be fazed by something he did.

[Lucien]

My 2 cents:

There is a guy who I train with who has won the national championships 3 or more times. Everyone agrees he is the best at winning competitions. Yet he has failed his 4th dan test twice.

Maybe it is because he lacks depth; he only knows one sort of kendo.

When you reach 40 you have to move to the Veteran's competitions. Your shiai career is effectively over but, all things going well, you still have another 40 years of kendo in you.

Wouldn't it be tedious to spend that time unlearning all the bad habits you got into when you're only aim was to win! win! win!

Even Ishikawa (?) sensei - the 7th dan policeman and ex-Japan champion - said that his competition kendo inhibited his ability to pass his 8th dan.

[webjunkie401]

Do you mean Ishida-sensei?

[Lucien]

Do you mean Ishida-sensei?
hmm....yes

[hyuna]

Was it a trick? Was it appropriate? You tell me!

Thank you again for an insightful and interesting post.

I don't think it was a "trick."

When I am thinking of a "trick" I am thinking of something pretty specific. I am thinking of things that are quasi-legal but not really, in my opinion, kendo.

Examples: I think of stepping on a hakama hem as a trick because stepping on clothing is not a kendo waza; it has nothing to do with the sword or kendo form. I think of punching people as a trick because we are fencing, not boxing--punching is also not a kendo form. I think of flipping your head as a trick or blocking with your arm because they are also not kendo waza. If it was shinken, it is a pointless action. Again, this is not to say that if someone can dodge your hit by doing something like that means that you can criticize their kendo and use it as an excuse for missing, I mean that we should not practice doing that kind of thing or think that it is ok not to learn to control center because you can just flip your head to "dodge" your opponent's attack. The common theme is that these behaviors are legal, but not swordsmanship, i.e. kendo.

On the other hand, bizarre kamae, feints with the sword, maki-waza, and thngs like that are indeed ways of controlling and using the sword. I am actually not inclined to call hooking a shinai with the tsuba during tsubazerai a trick because it is manipulating the weapon, but I do see letting go of your shinai to grab theirs as over the line. Similarly, I am not inclined to think of using a light shinai as a trick. Hitting deliberately off-target, like on the knuckle, is getting a bit grey, as I see it. Startling someone with strong kiai is not swordsmanship, per se, but it is something that all sensei teach is part of the spirit of kendo so I see that also as not being a trick. In the same way, if sensei as a rule start teaching people to flip your head as a legitimate waza, and we practice it, and showing mastery of the head flip is looked upon favorably in testing, etc, I am willing to change my position on whether or not it is a "trick." However, as it stands now, it seems to me not a kendo waza but rather an abuse of shiai regulations--getting by on a technicality, as it were.

A way to think of it is that if you saw a class that practice this one thing exclusively, would most normal kendoka agree that it is kendo class? If you saw people using weird kamae in jigeiko for 2 hours you might think it is odd, but I think most would agree it is still fencing. If you saw people practicing punching each other in the mengane for 2 hours, except for wearing men, would you say that is a kendo class?

That is how I define it, anyway.

[DCPan]

Hi Arthur,

I see what you mean now. I guess trick means different things to different people.

The tricks you mention above are what I call illegal, written down or not ^_^

I see trick more as technique without depth. Meaning, a technique without omote/ura.

For example, men-semete-kote.

If you pressure the opponent’s men as you enter, the omote-waza is the men-uchi that you intended if the opponent don’t respond. If the opponent responds by trying to receive the men-uchi, his kote becomes open and the ura-waza manifest as the kote-uchi that you deliver in response to his reaction. So, either way, you have a waza-manifest depending on the opponent’s response. Of course, the more advanced you are, the more interesting your waza-manifest can be.

So, if you pressure the opponent’s men and strike kote without gauging to see if your opponent has responded, while it is technically named men-semete-kote still, it lacks the depth of waza because the opponent can call your bluff by not responding to your seme.

So, the distinguishing feature of trick and waza, at least for me, is in the intent. With a trick, you just hope it works. With a waza, you have a contingency plan.

For example, some things that aren’t illegal or illegitimate that I still consider as “tricks” are:

Han-getsu men (half-moon men): Drop kamae down to gedan, then bring tip up clock-wise to strike men. Looks just like that chanbara move in one of those movies that I can’t remember the name of.

Fall-forward men: Lean forward as if you stumbled on your hakama and conveniently bring your shinai tip under and around the opponent’s shinai. Then sashi-men as the opponent is surprised.

See, in either case, the only reason it’ll work for you is the element of surprise. They certainly won’t work as a primary attack or at the beginning of the shiai when the opponent is alert and ready…could be a tide turner when both of you have fallen into rhythm so you need to do a change-up, but both make bad primary techniques.

However, as I said before, the distinguishing element is the intent. With a few minor mental adjustments, the “tricks” above can be waza.

:D

[mingshi]

I am following this thread and everyone has contributed some interesting ideas. Well done...

But just to keep the debate going, I spotted a few "flaws" ... like this one...

Examples: I think of stepping on a hakama hem as a trick because stepping on clothing is not a kendo waza; it has nothing to do with the sword or kendo form.
Was it you step on other people's hakama to make them fall down, or was it you step on your own and fall by yourself, wasting time?

Applying your "if it was shinken" believe, falling over create an opening for your opponent. If you fall down and your opponent don't hit immediately, that's his/her fault. If you make them fall and not hit, you lose your chance.

I think of flipping your head....
Rephrasing DC Pan, if your opponent can flip his/her head to dodge your cut, you are too slow anyway. Maybe think of it in a better sense, if your opponent used body movement instead, it would have been a nuki-waza.

if sensei as a rule start teaching people to flip your head as a legitimate waza, and we practice it, and showing mastery of the head flip is looked upon favorably in testing, etc,
Anyhow that's a shiai technique, where scoring (or, avoiding to lose point) is a priority. Clean is another thing. Using Hansoku is probably one of the shiai techniques. If you are fighting and your opponent is one step away from Jo-gai, would you suddenly become noble and invite him/her to get back to the center?

In the Regulations there is a rule about a hit on the Men-gane being scored IF your opponent tilts his/her head up when you cut them. As far as head-bobbing wasn't written down, the move is still "legal".

Ciao~ :wink:

[hyuna]

Hi David,

I like the distinction you are making and I think it is important and valuable, but I have just one concern. Beginners are always just hoping that their technique works, and I hesitate to use a definition that makes all of beginner kendo "tricks" or leads one to want to say that beginners "aren't really doing kendo." I think it is obvious that beginners do not understand kendo, but that is a different thing... Also if you always keep in mind a contingency, doesn't that compromise the feeling of going for ippon? I specifically mean thinking about and planning the follow-up, and not simply responding out of a state of mushin. If you "just do it" you are not really thinking of having a contingency, I don't think.


Hi Jenny,

Thank you very much for keeping me honest. Having people find flaws in my argument is what helps me build better understanding.

When I mean stepping on hakama, I meant stepping on your opponents, as misterkurukuru was speaking of earlier. Definitely if someone falls down, you have an opportunity you should take, what I mean, though is when someone causes you to fall down unfairly, basically tripping you. In pre WW2 kendo, I am told there were leg throws and whatnot, so if we were still doing kendo like that, I would have no complaint, but I think it is understood now that knocking people over is not appropriate.

If your opponent can flip their head to dodge, I agree, it is your fault for being too slow. But that doesn't mean that you should be content to flip your head to dodge when you know the right thing is to move your whole body. Again, I am really only talking about the way a person addresses the way they do their waza, and not in any way about judging someone else. We cannot judge the other person, so all there is to say is if you hit, you hit and if you miss, you miss. Similarly, all there is to say is if you try to do the correct technique or not.

Would I invite my opponent back to center? I cannot just back up without giving up an opportunity, so I cannot just invite them back as I might in jigeiko. I have in the past deliberately not attempted to muscle my opponent out of the ring when I felt I could, even though it would have ended up giving me a point because of a previous hansoku. I was aware of the possibility at the time, but if I win a match, I want to be because of my ability to cut, not because I might happen to weigh more than my opponent or whatever. I want to win a kendo match with kendo, not with sumo. I don't act that way out of a sense of nobility--I want to win as much as anyone else, but winning at kendo is more important to me than winning at kendo, if you see my meaning. If my kendo is weak, it is right for me to lose the match so that I learn that my kendo is weak and I can set my mind to improving it. I should not hide from my kendo weaknesses by using good sumo to make up for them and maybe ultimately win the match, I should face up to them.

I understand that not everyone plays that way, and I respect that. I feel no ill-will to someone who would shove me out if the situation is reversed. But this is how I see things at my present level.

[DCPan]

Wouldn't it be tedious to spend that time unlearning all the bad habits you got into when you're only aim was to win! win! win!


The only problem is this, how do you tell the difference?

Some things are simply necessary phases you need to go through.

You won't have a powerful sashi-men if you can't do a big men properly, etc.

I limited myself in the beginning by prematurely "deciding with my mind" what is good or bad. I've learned along the way that a lot of what I thought wasn't good wasn't necessarily bad.

I like what Mr. Kurukuru said, you have to do the kendo that is appropriate for your physical and mental level.

I am now going to let "keiko" decide what is good or bad for me.

[DCPan]

Hi David,
I like the distinction you are making and I think it is important and valuable, but I have just one concern. Beginners are always just hoping that their technique works, and I hesitate to use a definition that makes all of beginner kendo "tricks" or leads one to want to say that beginners "aren't really doing kendo."

Thanks for the caveat. I should have perhaps limited the definition of tricks to doing "unorthodox movements" that have no depth. Perhaps mono-syllabic vs. conversation is more useful.

Regardless, I think I got my point across. :confused2

Hi David,
I think it is obvious that beginners do not understand kendo, but that is a different thing...

Yeah...I think in the beginning, you simply have to acquire the vocabulary to have the conversation.

My distinction between trick and technique is really about how to have the conversation, which acts on the assumption that one is ready to have a conversation.

For example, some sensei will not jigeiko with me...they feel it is more important that I do kirikaeshi and uchikomi because my vocabulary isn't at a level that I can have meaningful "conversations" with them yet....

Hi David,
Also if you always keep in mind a contingency, doesn't that compromise the feeling of going for ippon? I specifically mean thinking about and planning the follow-up, and not simply responding out of a state of mushin. If you "just do it" you are not really thinking of having a contingency, I don't think.


Two things.

The omote-ura should be practiced so that it becomes natural. If you have to think about it, it's too late. This is the "kabala of movement" that Dr. Karl Friday refers to in his book "Legacies of the Sword". Classically, this is achieved through kata-training where at key points in the kata, the uchidachi would change respond to see if the shidachi follows. I am unaware of such decision forks in the kendo kata, so this definition is by all means not an end all be all.

You should do it with the feeling of "just do it", but your body should be aware of the options available to you, does that make sense? (I sound as if I could really do this, but I can't yet ^_^ though I'm striving).

Second, it is this depth of awareness that gives focused attacks meaning. If you have the expanded awareness that you can be aware of your options, when you focus your attention on catching only ONE option, this is "shotachi" (similar to debana-waza) where you are completely focused on catching that moment when the opponent is open.

In other words, if you are not aware of your choices, how can you make a choice???

FWIW (as I obviously don't have it all figured out yet)! :rolleyes:

[hyuna]

Hi David,

Thank you for your clarification. I agree with you on all points. Introducing the idea of the "conversation" helped me understand what you were saying about omote-ura much better, and I perceive how I misunderstood you from before. I have been exposed to the concept before but not that specific metaphor, and I think it is a good one.

[DCPan]

Hi David,

I specifically mean thinking about and planning the follow-up, and not simply responding out of a state of mushin. If you "just do it" you are not really thinking of having a contingency, I don't think.


I'm really enjoying this conversation, btw.

I just thought of another way to describe it. In an earlier link provided by AlexM in another thread, there was an article about how Narazaki sensei's men is all sutemi. There's also an article about sutemi in the kendo-world page.

What I found interesting was that they actually describe a mindfulness that is released into sutemi when conditions for an correct attack is met.

I find this curious as how do you transition from mindful seme to sutemi-uchi? That is obviously something I've yet to comprehend (and why the authors are 8th dan and I'm not).

Regardless though, it appears to me that there is mindfulness before the strike.

An analogy would be chess. Be it Chinese chess or western chess, there are many books out there that teach you pre-determined end-games when you fall into a particular situation. I doubt chessmasters use these cornerstones of attack the way rookies do, but there are situations that games eventually resolve into.

Or like driving. I don't actively think about avoiding another car, but my awareness is ready to swerve when somebody makes a wrong move.

Having awareness of these things simply gives you the advantage to keep the initiative, rather than having you trouble shoot or reset when your attack didn't succeed.

I want to win as much as anyone else, but winning at kendo is more important to me than winning at kendo, if you see my meaning.

I was like that! :rolleyes:

Perhaps it is with the Musashi influence on the NHK drama.

Rather than thinking kenjutsu, think heiho.

A good swordsman can win with the sun in the eye, the cross-wind, the terrain. If you meet a swordsman that is technically stronger, do you let him kill you or help him fall off the cliff?

When I push the opponent out of bounds, I am using the boundry as the sword that kills him. If that was a cliff instead, isn't he still toast? What if that was a tree root?

[hyuna]

An analogy would be chess. Be it Chinese chess or western chess, there are many books out there that teach you pre-determined end-games when you fall into a particular situation. I doubt chessmasters use these cornerstones of attack the way rookies do, but there are situations that games eventually resolve into.

Or like driving. I don't actively think about avoiding another car, but my awareness is ready to swerve when somebody makes a wrong move.

Having awareness of these things simply gives you the advantage to keep the initiative, rather than having you trouble shoot or reset when your attack didn't succeed.


I'm enjoying this as well; I think it is a very valuable conversation.

I think those are two very useful analogies.

People are often surprised when they learn that western chess grandmasters do not figure out moves like 4 or 8 or 20 or whatever moves ahead. Sometimes they do, like in endgames, but for the most part they do not because things are too complicated. Chess players rely on patterns and principles to win, not looking ahead past what is happening now.

I think a similar thing happens when your awareness focuses on the dangerous situation and allows you to swerve. I know in the occasion that it has happened to me, I am not thinking about the situation in the lane I am swerving into, even though I may very well have to swerve again; I am grounded in the current swerve and relying on the "shape" of the traffic to know where to go next.

I think this is much like what you were saying before about hitting being natural. Like you said, if you have to think about it, it is too late. It strikes me the same as with both chess and traffic.

I think there is mindfulness, but it is not of the entire sequence, it is a full mindfulness of the here and now. Someone quoted a book to me once, I wish I knew the title. The line was something like that no-mind is not being mindless--that could be accomplished with a 2x4. So the idea is not that one is absent from what is happening, it is that what is happening is "natural."



A good swordsman can win with the sun in the eye, the cross-wind, the terrain. If you meet a swordsman that is technically stronger, do you let him kill you or help him fall off the cliff?

When I push the opponent out of bounds, I am using the boundry as the sword that kills him. If that was a cliff instead, isn't he still toast? What if that was a tree root?

I think this is also very important, and something I have thought long and hard about. The place I am at right now is like this:

I don't practice kendo to learn to hurt people. The principles of the sword are one of many ways to learn to improve oneself, and it happens to be the set I am using. But nevertheless, my ultimate goal is not to destroy my enemy, it is to destroy the weaknesses in myself.

If the goal of practice is to defeat others, then I think one is justified in thinking along the lines you have laid out. One absolutely should take every opportunity to take advantage of weakness, including tree roots. Push them back until they trip, or fall over the edge of the cliff. But the way to do that is to be ruthless and brutal. It means not only pushing people out when there is a scoring opportunity, it means always pushing them around because once you break someone's spirit, they will lose sooner or later. Break them in the beginning of the match by making them feel weak and pathetic, they will lose all the sooner. Think about how one feels when they see a bully that beat them up. One might feel angry or scared or pitying or one of many other things, but the one thing someone does not feel is detached and calm. I am ashamed to say it, but I can think of times where I have unintentionally bullied people professionally to gain future advantage. It works. Furthermore, one cannot turn compassion on and off like a faucet. I think if you want to learn to be ruthless in shiai, you have to practice being ruthless in keiko. I think we are taught this in kendo as well when we are told things like how you can see someone's mind through their sword, or that the sword and the spirit are one. They don't say you learn about someone's kendo style through their sword, they say you learn about them. Anyway, If everyone is afraid of you, you are halfway to winning right there. But what does it mean to practice being ruthless and brutal? It is just being a bully. I think if one believes that kendo is not ultimately about being a bully (even if only during practice), you cannot accept the logic that one should define victory in terms of defeating other people.

The life & death situation has one other dimension to it other than defeating the opponent, and that is survival. But kendo is not a life & death situation and so that is not really an issue. That sounds like a cop out, but that is reality. Instead of taking kendo, I could take one of those Israeli Special Forces "self-defense" classes, or Gracie stye Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, or kickboxing, or something, and learn to beat people up in earnest. Kendo is fundamentally set up not to be a survival situation. If one wants it otherwise, we should go back to bokuto and if you screw up, you get hurt. Better than dying and you'll learn fast.

So, if neither defeating the enemy nor survival has any meaning, the analogy of the life & death also has no meaning.

If the goal is not to defeat the person opposite you, what is it? Rigorous practice makes me learn to control myself and defeat my own weakness. When I face an opponent who is better than me and they frustrate my attempts to score a point, I get frustrated, embarrased, maybe angry. I feel tempted to use dirty tricks or plain meanness to wipe that smug smile off their face, or prove to whoever is watching (or myself!) that I have some skill, or whatever. When I give into that temptation, that is the proof of my failure in training. Failure is not when I get hit on the head, failure is when I allow any feelings that are more negative than gratitude and humility to come over me when I am hit or when I miss. It doesn't make any difference if they hit or dodged fair or dirty,what matters is how I respond to it. When I give in to the temptation to use a trick, it is because I have lost control of myself. I have lost my discipline and veered from my path. I feel I have made progress when I can do the right technique no how terrible a time I am having and how frustrated I am and how utterly pointless it seems simply because I know it is the right way. Therefore, I do not judge people who use tricks on me. I am grateful, in an annoyed kind of way, because they test me. And, by testing me, they make me improve.

Finally, why do I use examples from shinken shobu if I don't really believe kendo practice is about learning to kill people with a sword? Frankly, because it is a convenient argument to use with other people. I find others often are not as moved when I say that the reason one shouldn't flip their head to dodge is simply because it is wrong to do so. That is, in actuallity, how I feel about it, though. You can kind of tell from when I said that if sensei all started teaching it as legitimate, I would be ok with it.

But, that is why I do not see the analogy of the fight to the death as meaningful. To me, the question is more like what do you do if someone does something nasty to you and you have an opportunity to do something nasty to them in return.

[Masahiro]

In other words, if you are not aware of your choices, how can you make a choice???
I like that, by the way David you should get my e-mail tonight. sorry for the delay, you will see the reason in my e-mail later.

[JSchmidt]

People are often surprised when they learn that western chess grandmasters do not figure out moves like 4 or 8 or 20 or whatever moves ahead. Sometimes they do, like in endgames, but for the most part they do not because things are too complicated. Chess players rely on patterns and principles to win, not looking ahead past what is happening now.
Not an entirely valid anology. A world class grand master will have a team of up to 20 (usual international masters) people to do research for him for each specific match. They will analyze his opponents playing style and present the grandmaster with this study of his strength and weaknesses along with 'playbooks'. Usually the opening game is pretty much pre-determined.

Jakob
(Once-upon-a-time-a-chess-dweeb)

[DCPan]

Hi Arthur,

Off to practice soon, so I gotta be brief (yeah, good luck :rolleyes: )


I don't practice kendo to learn to hurt people. The principles of the sword are one of many ways to learn to improve oneself, and it happens to be the set I am using. But nevertheless, my ultimate goal is not to destroy my enemy, it is to destroy the weaknesses in myself.


But that’s the thing!

Almost everyone talks about self-improvement, but nobody is willing to address the “vehicle” through which this is achieved.

What is your mirror? I currently believe the "mirror" you are using to see yourself clearly is your effort to overcome the opponent. It is through your honest search of why things didn't work that you learn about your weakness and defeat it. In other words, when you can no longer be honest to yourself about why things aren't working, you WILL plateau.

I use to believe that the self-improvement comes from “not succumbing” to the darkside. In other words, I believe it is a personal triumph when I can resist the temptation to win the match with less than honest techniques like the famous flat of the blade kote flick.

One day, I thought to myself, “Look at the things that your opponent is doing that you find less than savory. While you always have the CHOICE to not do it, do you have the ABILITY to do it when you have to?” I didn’t like the answer.


If the goal of practice is to defeat others, then I think one is justified in thinking along the lines you have laid out. One absolutely should take every opportunity to take advantage of weakness, including tree roots. Push them back until they trip, or fall over the edge of the cliff. But the way to do that is to be ruthless and brutal.

Taking the advantage of the situation and HOW you take the advantage of the situation are two different things that should not be confused.

If you have to bully the guy out of bounds, you really haven't found the opening have you?

You can be opportunistic without being ruthless or brutal.

It is my current belief that it is through the relentless earnestness of your effort to overcome your opponent that you can overcome yourself.

I guess the distinction is this.

Before, I already have an image of what I want my kendo to look like. I practice hard to get closer to that image, but that image is determined by what I want, intellectually. So, do you think I really saw myself?

Now, I am considering removing this image that I’ve placed upon myself and see what I really look like. I may not like what I find, but I’ll probably learn more about myself than I ever did. Make sense?

How can you overcome yourself if you don't know yourself? Keiko and shiai give you a physical medium for your personality to manifest.

It is my belief that by stripping your self-image that your true-self will emerge.

Part of it involve throwing away your preconception of what things should be and regaining that understanding through physical experience....

Off to practice now!

[not-I]

It is my belief that by stripping your self-image that your true-self will emerge.

Part of it involve throwing away your preconception of what things should be and regaining that understanding through physical experience....

Off to practice now!
Hear Hear!

Nice thread all btw.

[Andoru]

Wow I'm loving this thread! Lots of excellent insights!

Miyazaki sensei once said that good kendo is effective kendo. So what's your definition of "good" in this context? Seems to me that everyone has their definitions of what good kendo is. I suppose that's why kendo is so deep.

[Old Warrior]

Kendo is an anachronism. The study today, has no resemblence in purpose, to why it was taught 200 years ago. In those days survival was more at the centerpiece of why it was learned, as the ability to wield a sword was part of the occupation of the practitioner or a necessary survival skill. I doubt that people studied Kendo because they were overstressed professionals seeking meaning in their life and stress relief.

Shiai Kendo is a sport, no better or worse that baseball or tennis. There are dirty players in every sport and many of them are revered and members of the Hall of Fame. They were winners and that is what modern society worships. That's just the way it is, whether you like it or not.

Nevertheless, the study of Kendo provides much enrichment to ones life if you are smart enough to appreciate the benefit of what you are doing. First, practicing Kendo keeps an honored tradition alive. Second, it teaches self discipline and self control in an atmosphere that fosters personal growth. Execptional life values such as humility, respect, and honor are part of the process of learning. "Winning" is a total irrelevency, except as a measure of your progress. If you can't increase the frequency of your "winning" - you just aren't getting any better. That does not mean that the pursuit is not worthwhile, as the exercise is undoubtedly beneficial in a number of ways measured by modern medicine.

What irks me is the need some contributors have to preach that they know the way to true Kendo enlightenment. Why is a men cut better than a do cut or kote cut? Where in the book of Kendo does it say that if I can cut kote every time my opponent precipitates a move, that I have inferior Kendo. If I can hone a style that is difficult to read and hard to overcome - does it have to be beautiful? I can admire the beauty of perfect form and footwork, but there is also something to be said for "winning" ugly. Some guys have lesser physical skill, but have a very strong will to survive, a stubborn refusal to give into domination and a willingness to perservere. Isn't there a place for us in the fabric of Kendo. Must every Kendoka be "good"? For guys like me, it is a privilege to be able to show up and give it a go. Maybe I'll get better and maybe I won't - but I surely will not be discouraged by those who think that my use of deception, feints, blocks or any other technique that I have been taught by my instructors is illegitimate or bad Kendo. Most of us will never do elegant Kendo or get to be 5th Dans - that's just the way it is.

[Kirin]

Wow I'm loving this thread! Lots of excellent insights!

Miyazaki sensei once said that good kendo is effective kendo. So what's your definition of "good" in this context? Seems to me that everyone has their definitions of what good kendo is. I suppose that's why kendo is so deep.

I like recent Miyazaki sensei's kendo style compare to when he was winning consecutive All Japan Championships.

His kendo is very "straight" now !!
(no more blocking/mitokoro-yoke... I guess he decide to cahnge his style to be more effective huh :wink: )


Old Warrior,
Just one question to you...
Which is better 'shiai' kendo or 'shinsa' kendo?

Why is a men cut better than a do cut or kote cut? Where in the book of Kendo does it say that if I can cut kote every time my opponent precipitates a move, that I have inferior Kendo. If I can hone a style that is difficult to read and hard to overcome - does it have to be beautiful?.
If you can not cut clean men, forget about your 5-dan... not even 3-dan :smoker:

I can admire the beauty of perfect form and footwork, but there is also something to be said for "winning" ugly
In kendo, there should not be 'winning' ugly.... I rather lose pretty than win ugly.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If I can hone a style that is difficult to read and hard to overcome - does it have to be beautiful?
Yes. Or rather, that is the ultimate goal. When you play very high level sensei, they pretty much ignore all the ugly points. If you tag an 80 year old on the kote because you were quicker than him, he doesn't care. If you can break that 80 year old's kamae and take his men, he will be happy with you. That is my (far distant goal): stay straight, and take the point by controlling the opponent so completely that I am not touched. Long way to go, but then that's the beauty of kendo - always room to improve.
Most of us will never do elegant Kendo or get to be 5th Dans - that's just the way it is.
I disagree. If I can do it, Lord knows anyone can. Most people don't get 5 dan because most people quit before putting in the time. All it takes is a certain amount of physical eptness, patience and determination, and you've got them all with a healthy dose of the third. In my view, 6th dan is within reach of any reasonably talented person who practices persistently and is ready to learn. IMNSHO, beyond that is getting into the ranks of the unusually gifted.

BTW elegant kendo is a nice way to put it - that is one of the primary differences between 5 dan and 4 dan. You need to show dignity and beauty in your kendo - more and more, it is being held as an example, and winning ugly is not a good example for your (future) students.

Thanks to all for their thoughts, especially Kurukuru - you should take more time to be serious here, we can all benefit from your experience.

[hyuna]

Hi JSchmidt,

"They will analyze his opponents playing style and present the grandmaster with this study of his strength and weaknesses along with 'playbooks'."

Very true, but it doesn't change the applicability. Pre-game preparation is like looking at what your opponent's history: what waza do they use often, which do they win with, with what waza they have been defeated, etc. Judgement during the game is still analogous to judgement during the bout.

Hi DCPan,

"What is your mirror? I currently believe the "mirror" you are using to see yourself clearly is your effort to overcome the opponent."

As I said in my previous post, the "mirror" I am using now is my effort and ability to maintain self-control during practice regardless of what my opponent throws at me.

"While you always have the CHOICE to not do [something unsavory], do you have the ABILITY to do [something unsavory] when you have to?”" I think the important question is do you have the ability NOT to do something unsavory when you want to. I always have the choice and the ability to lose my temper, to belittle someone, to be coldhearted and mean. Do I have the ability not to lose my temper, to treat someone the right way when they have mistreated me, to be compassionate even when I do not want to be? I have the choice, maybe the ability, but do I have the right to press my advantage to strengthen my position over the weak and less fortunate? I do not know that following that is the right path. To me, the question is: do I have the courage and self-control to do the right thing even when it is not, strictly speaking, in my self-interest, not if I am able to do something unsavory when I believe I have to. In concrete terms, will I help the disadvantaged even when it means sacrificing something of mine, or will I step on top of them to get more? Like you, I don't like the answer I must give myself, but my question seems to be very nearly the opposite of yours.

"You can be opportunistic without being ruthless or brutal."

Yes, but the question is if you can prioritize winning without becoming ruthless and brutal? To win is to defeat. To always win requires you have no remorse for the fate of others. In swordfighting terms, if you are concerned for your opponent's widow and children, how can you bring yourself to kill him? In shiai terms, you need to have enough nerve that when someone asks you "wow, how did you beat champion X" you can either say proudly "because I took steroids for the last 2 years, and boy am I lucky that nobody caught it" or, not to feel guilty over "bending the rules" through taking an "unfair advantage." That is what sets the stage.

"So, do you think I really saw myself?"
"How can you overcome yourself if you don't know yourself"

Those are very good points, and I do understand what you mean. I am not sure one can ever know who they are, really. You will always view yourself through your own, inherently biased, eyes so you can never get a clear view of yourself.

Does it really matter what the block of marble looks like before it is shaped into a statue? I have an idea of what I think a person should be. Kendo is my chisel, driven by the hammer of my opponent's shinai. It is, obviously, influenced by my personality, but it is neither derived from my self-image, nor what I think kendo is "supposed" to be. It comes from all of the teachings of my family, my friends, my teachers, my community, etc about what it means to be a "good" person. So, how can you overcome yourself without knowing yourself? I answer: you can walk towards the mountain without knowing where you are.

It is a deep question, though, and deserves (and will receive) a great deal more thought on my part.

By the way, I cannot understate the effect your saying that you used to think like me has on me, so I want to make sure I've said that this conversation is very good for me, and I want to thank you for that.


Hi Old Warrior,

"They were winners and that is what modern society worships. That's just the way it is, whether you like it or not"

True, but even if "modern society" worships winning over all else does not mean that we have to. We do not have to like the way the world is, but we should do what we think is right in our own lives. "Think globally, act locally" "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" and all that... Do you feel that it is right that dirty players are revered?

""Winning" is a total irrelevency, except as a measure of your progress. If you can't increase the frequency of your "winning" - you just aren't getting any better."

This is true only if you define winning as the sole metric of progress, in which case the logic is circular: If you can't increase your frequency of demonstrating improvement, you aren't improving. An empty tautology. If winning bouts is only one measure, then you can indeed be seen to be improved despite not winning more bouts. For example, how do you compare someone who always ultimately loses but is always competitive in increasingly tougher categories with someone who always wins but never moves out of the most novice categories?

"Must every Kendoka be "good"?"
"Most of us will never do elegant Kendo or get to be 5th Dans"

Difficult questions. Personally, I think the important thing is to leave better than when you came in, and the rest is noise. For me, improving in rank is tangential to my goal in practicing kendo. It is related, but in a limited way. I seek to discipline myself, and to practice discipline requires a standard to discipline myself against. I have chosen straight kendo as that standard. As such, advancement in rank tells me something of how successful I have been at forcing myself to adhere to the standards of kendo. But at the same time, every time that kendo has allows me to have the courage to do something I know is right even when it is painfully difficult to do, I consider myself successful regardless of my rank. I admit I could choose the discipline of shiai instead of shinsa, but as I wrote before, I find that path philosophically opposed to the path I am walking now.

I think, to some degree, it is a nonissue. I do not believe I have met anyone who will continue in an endeavor when they think they are doomed to failure. Therefore, anyone who is in kendo will either succeed by traditional metrics, or they will adopt an attitude that allows them to feel they are successful in spite of traditional metrics, (or both). Otherwise, they will quit. I think everyone who doesn't have a self-esteem crisis believes in the potential for them to be "good" in some sense in everything they do. So all kendoka have to be "good," but "good" means something different for everyone... I think this is expressed every time someone puts quotes around "winning" or "good."

"Some guys have lesser physical skill, but have a very strong will to survive, a stubborn refusal to give into domination and a willingness to perservere. Isn't there a place for us in the fabric of Kendo."

I think there is more a place for people like that (you) then the reverse.

"What irks me is the need some contributors have to preach that they know the way to true Kendo enlightenment."

I cannot help but wonder if you are talking about me. Maybe that is my insecurity showing. Just in case it is, as I said before, I do not know the way. I am hoping that through the conversation, that is, with all of your help, I will get a little closer to finding it. After every post, I am simultaneously frightened and hopeful that someone will see the central flaw in my thinking and shatter it all to bits with strong rhetorical ippon. It feels a lot like when I go for shomen against sensei during jigeiko, I want it to succeed but some part of me does not, for learning and growth comes from overcoming failure, not from basking in success.

[Old Warrior]

Forgive me all, I stand in judgment of no one and do not hold myself out as a learned spokesman for the study of Kendo.

My point is that I deeply believe there is a place in life for the mediocre. In school there were always enrichment programs for the bright children, but those in the middle were neglected. The fact that one may strive for perfection does not mean that it will ever be achieved or one will not be satisfied with the elusive pursuit. I will never do elegant Kendo. I can appreciate it when I see it. I can go to class 4 days a week and train till my knees are swollen and my feet sore (my current state as I type). But I will never approach Neil's plateau. I suspect I am 20+ years older than Neil and the clock will not allow me the time to ever visit his place in Kendo. But, I'm having one hell of time working at it and every kote that I can hit against those who are many ranks above me, provide me with more than enough encouragement to continue to practice and to improve. And you know something, the more I practice the better I get, but I have no illusions that I will ever be good.

The 80 year old Hachidan who sloughs off a perfect kote can think what he wants. I know how long it would have taken me to get to the point that I could succeed with that cut. Since we are mimicing swordplay, I would think that anyone who "poo poos" the skill of someone who just theoretically cut off his sword hand is a bit too arrogant for my taste.

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

When I don’t meet with success in my matches, there were always a plethora of “explanations” available to me, when I don’t truly feel beaten.

“That guy is just tapping me, that strike wouldn’t cut. He was just playing for points.”

“There was no riai, it was a lucky shot….”

“That was a head-dodge…my nuki men would have killed him if I was using a shinken.”

“That kote strike had no hasuji, he’s just going stick-tag with the flat of his shinai”.

“That was a trick, it’s not honest kendo”.

“He’s just a sport guy, there’s no tamashii in his waza….”



hey dc , ya know musashi pointed out in "a book of five rings": that you should not think dishonestly.


i just wanted to say that if u continue to think that way it might just lead to more losses and poor understanding of the way, and if u loose any match u have to accept it .....like accepting death, "the way of the worrior is resolute acceptance of death" - musashi

...and -in my opinion- it is important to think of winning and loosing in kendo as life and death...

.mohammad

[Neil Gendzwill]

My point is that I deeply believe there is a place in life for the mediocre.
Why shouldn't they strive for the same things? One can argue that straight kendo is the simplest way to win. It's also the hardest. But anyone can work towards that goal, no matter their talent.
I will never do elegant Kendo.
Don't sell yourself short, you've only just started.
But I will never approach Neil's plateau. I suspect I am 20+ years older than Neil and the clock will not allow me the time to ever visit his place in Kendo.
My point is that it's not that much of a plateau. You've got some years on me (I think it's only around 10 - I'm 42). You also have the advantage of living in a relative hotbed of kendo and of having a lot of experience in a related sport. People who start as late as you can and do succeed. When I took my godan exam, one of the other gentlemen who passed was 67. He can't be quick, he can't be ducking - what he does is apply a lot of pressure and take peoples' men very clearly.
Since we are mimicing swordplay, I would think that anyone who "poo poos" the skill of someone who just theoretically cut off his sword hand is a bit too arrogant for my taste.
But his goal is not necessarily to mimic swordplay - at his age, it's more about the mental game. Taking or losing a quick kote is no longer interesting to him. That's not to say that it can't be interesting for you, or that taking kote off of him isn't an accomplishment. It's a step along the path. What people want to accomplish in their practice changes with time. What they perceive as impossibilities early in their career become possibilites, then probabilities, then reality.

Keep slugging. I sincerely hope that in 10 years' time you'll still be practicing, and it will be interesting to hear your opinions then.

[Old Warrior]

"Taking or losing a quick kote is no longer interesting to him. That's not to say that it can't be interesting for you, or that taking kote off of him isn't an accomplishment. It's a step along the path. What people want to accomplish in their practice changes with time. What they perceive as impossibilities early in their career become possibilites, then probabilities, then reality."

When you nito and hold the daito in the right, to hit kote you must first take center with the shoto to expose the kote - and cut simultaneously. It actually takes a lot more coordination and timing than a men cut. If someone does not value the effort and work it takes to accomplish that technique, then we are two people engaged in a somewhat different pursuit. 75% of what we practice involves a men cut; which is precisely why I give a bit more effort to the unanticipated. Lastly, a perfect kote cut from nito, is much harder to do than a men cut (both timing and precision) and it is not a "tap", considering it starts from well above the head.

PS to Neil
Next month I will be 56

[Paikea]

hey dc , ya know musashi pointed out in "a book of five rings": that you should not think dishonestly.


i just wanted to say that if u continue to think that way it might just lead to more losses and poor understanding of the way, and if u loose any match u have to accept it .....like accepting death, "the way of the worrior is resolute acceptance of death" - musashi

...and -in my opinion- it is important to think of winning and loosing in kendo as life and death...

.mohammadMoe...train for 10 years or more, then maybe you can tell DC and others what they should be doing, OK? Your enthusiasm is touching, and I sympathize with your situation, but you really do not know what you are talking about.

As others here will point out, the first indication of a poseur is to spout on about the gorin no sho.

[eric]

Hello all,

I just wanted to add some quick points as well. To all in favor of multiple versions and opinions of kendo I strongly agree. Shiai kendo must be different then shinsa kendo and in order to excell in kendo I think that effort must be placed on both clean and "winning" kendo. As for tricks, Charlie, did you see the MWKF vs. SCKF at Nationals? The last fight between Sugawara Sensei and Yang sensei? Both the last match and the tiebreaker. In my opinion that was the definition of shiai kendo. Good strong, aggressive play from both sides. Also, reference Sugawara sensei vs. Ariga sensei(Taro) at any Detroit taikai. I think these instances clarify some issues with shiai kendo and I think neither was wrong, they did what they had to to win and lead their team to a victory. This, IMHO is always to be looked on as "good" kendo. Thanks to everyone for writing and to OW, I think it is extremely great that you are practicing nito with such vigor.

P.S. I really wish that these forums consisted of more discussions like these and less of the RBSO variety. Cheers!

[Hank]

Moe...train for 10 years or more, then maybe you can tell DC and others what they should be doing, OK? Your enthusiasm is touching, and I sympathize with your situation, but you really do not know what you are talking about.

As others here will point out, the first indication of a poseur is to spout on about the gorin no sho.Wow, you had to reach back 1 and a half years to find something to complain about? *grin* I guess that's a good thing.

Hank.

[Paikea]

Wow, you had to reach back 1 and a half years to find something to complain about? *grin* I guess that's a good thing.

Hank.You're right of course, some recent postings got me reading his old ones.