Pushing and Shoving during Shiai

[IYA KALI]

What is acceptable when it comes to pushing and shoving during Shiai? I was the ACT Kendo Comp (Australia) over the weekend and noticed there were some kyu grades blatently charging, pushing and shoving opponents around.

I guess it is acceptable when your opponent is inches from the boundary lines??? but I saw this one kyu grade participant attempting a men strike near the centre of the court and then continously charging, arms cocked out straight, towards the opponent, in a blatent attempt to push the opponent out of the court.

If one is going to use their body weight/height to ones advantage by charging at lighter-weights than should it not be fair for lighter-weights (or anyone for that matter) to use counter techniques such as tripping etc.

[Sentunim]

Well, the people at my dojo told me that you should try and go striaght through, it is the other persons obligation to get out of the. They also mentioned that i think if its not blatantly pushing someone, if you push them out of the area you get an extra half point, right?

I don't know... Im not that sure. Im a newb, you see.

[Hai_hai]

What is acceptable when it comes to pushing and shoving during Shiai? ...
There was a lot of pushing and shoving at the 12th WKC between unequal sized opponents (USA v. Korea). The small kendoka have to go with flow, i.e. step back when pushed rather than fall back. The smaller or shorter kendoka need to expect this sometimes and need to maintain balance when getting pushed. It's just part of the kendo also. You do not choose your opponents.

[Vansen]

What is acceptable when it comes to pushing and shoving during Shiai? I was the ACT Kendo Comp (Australia) over the weekend and noticed there were some kyu grades blatently charging, pushing and shoving opponents around.

I guess it is acceptable when your opponent is inches from the boundary lines??? but I saw this one kyu grade participant attempting a men strike near the centre of the court and then continously charging, arms cocked out straight, towards the opponent, in a blatent attempt to push the opponent out of the court.

If one is going to use their body weight/height to ones advantage by charging at lighter-weights than should it not be fair for lighter-weights (or anyone for that matter) to use counter techniques such as tripping etc.
Hi Iya. I was also there. If you may remember a guy running around with a video camera all day, that would be me (I have all the shoving on tape). There is a rule that deliberate shoving is not allowed but the interpretation of the rule is not black and white. You will always have people that will use their mass and court outlines to their advantage, I guess it is part of shiai Kendo but tripping is certainly not allowed. From the footage I have, I can see that some Kendoka are just aware of where they are within the square and can shift their bodies left or right to avoid being pushed out. As in any sport with outlines, the more experienced you are the better the "feel" for the court.

Cheers,
Ben Yuen

[Old Warrior]

I never get this line of inquiry. If a big person pushes you - get out of the way. Sidestep and hit men. I'm no expert here, but basic physics suggests that there is no point in pushing back when the other guy is a lot bigger; just turn the opponent and step back to distance. This seems like pretty basic stuff and is worthy of practice.

I think newbies get the idea that the only choice is to push back. I'm a big guy and I never attempt to muscle anyone for fear I will be off balance and vulnerable. The one place I do use my size is if you charge straight at me I don't give ground. Instead, I brace for the contact. Many an opponent has literally bounced off me and wound up on their tail.

[Will]

don't watch kyu people to model your kendo, look at the higher ranked yudansha

[aru-ma]

as far as shoving goes as it's usually tolerated to a degree in shiai although not a recomended thing to do albeit very annoying, just like a very long tai atari session. if you're wandering of it's a legitimate way of giving your opponent a hansoku with slight nudge then yes it is but pushing your opponents half way through the shiai jo, nggak kali ya.

[IYA KALI]

hahaha hey Aru-ma I totally agree with you dude...annoying it definitely is!!!

Is pushing the opponent half way through the shiai jo (or there abouts), a good indication of lack of skill...iya kali :D

[taganahan]

if you're going against a big opponent, there are 2 things you can do(maybe more).

1st one, you can use your opponents push. when he comes to you you can absorb the push, go back and do a tari tari me(check my spelling). just go with his flow.

2nd one, you can go against him. when he's about to meet up with you, go immediately to the side so that he'll keep going. then do a men while you're on the side or when he's about to turn.

3rd one, haha i have another one. you may also move backwards and not meet with him, but watch out for the boundary lines. this will make a good chance of him missing and chasing you around. you might say this is not a good thing, being chased around. but i've tried doing this, and when my opponent finally stopped chasing me, i went for his kote and men.

hope this helps...feel free to correct me..hehe

[KamiKiller5000]

I am a fairly big guy (6'1" and 200 lbs) and being new to Bogu (I've only been wearing Bogu for a month) I'm often guilty of trying to "muscle" people around in shiai. This last practice, after a match that I won, my sensei mentioned that even though "pushing" can win you a match, when you go to test for rank, the Shimpan will remember you as someone who is "ungraceful" or even one who "has poor kendo" based on the excessive amount of pushing in your tactics. My sensei even went so far as to say that "barbarian Kendo" is something that only bullies, and people who completely disregard technique, utilize as a means to win.

I was humbled by the feedback that I got only moments after "winning" a match that I had won by pushing somebody out of the ring, and retrospectively, I would think that although you can "win" with pushing and shoving, a more graceful, mature way to approach shiai technique would be through utilizing means that are based in the Kendo fundamentals, which I'm sure we could all stand to learn a little bit better

[Marine_Boy]

If pushed, open the pathway and let them through. Lead them around in a circular movement.

Use principles of aiki if you know them! :old_man:

[emitbrownne]

I'm no expert here, but basic physics suggests that there is no point in pushing back when the other guy is a lot bigger; just turn the opponent and step back to distance.
In my humble experience, sometimes its useful to push back against a stronger opponent. Still bear in mind the fact that you are going to give, but the initial push will reduce thier momentum, and disrupt thier plans.

doesnt always work.... :)

[Soul_Reaver]

Use principles of aiki if you know them!
If pulled move in,if pushed move to the side ;p

[darkluc3]

i think if someone wants to win just with pushing around it wouldn't be too bad to answer with some fast tsuki- even if you don't score a point, it'll at least make the other one stop when he sees that he's just running into your sword (what also hurts...)

[Akasha]

sometimes its useful to push back against a stronger opponent. Still bear in mind the fact that you are going to give, but the initial push will reduce thier momentum, and disrupt thier plans.
Hmmmm interesting!

I will bare this is mind next time I fence you big guy:devious:

[Masahiro]

If one is going to use their body weight/height to ones advantage by charging at lighter-weights than should it not be fair for lighter-weights (or anyone for that matter) to use counter techniques such as tripping etc.I hope you weren't instructed by anyone to think there are techniques in kendo that involves tripping your opponent. As for pushing/shoving in shia, it's a complex issue. Everything that happens during the bout happen as a rate faster than your mind can comprehend at times. That's what shia-keiko teaches you, react fast. if you should stand there to wait to receive a forceful men-uchi, and then wait some more for the opponent to continue to run over you. Then I think there is much room for improvement in your kendo. It isn't very nice to push or to shove people out of bounce, but these people really don't progress after a certain level anyways.

[Shazzanzzz]

I'll just say that I've only seen someone win once because of his pushing his opponent out of bounce, twice. But, he still got beat in the end despite his excessive pushing.

[Nishi]

There is a time and a place for everything I think. It depends what your opponent is doing.

If my opponent is physical (ie pushing) I become soft at certain points an allow myself to be pushed, the opponent will always find themselves leaning forward with extended arms... a pefect hiki-men oppurtunity.

I wouldnt rule anything out. When opponents wont break clean from taiatari or tsubazariai, and are looking for easy points as I step back, I may choose to use some short and sharp pushes of my own to get back into distance or create aite. (this is usually against opponents that play from tsubazariai though and refuse to fight from issoku.)

The rule should be 'relaxed body' though...for the most part.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Excessive shoving or manhandling is unnecessary and will generally impede your progress in kendo. Certainly you should know how to give and receive taiatari, and use it to your advantage in shiai if need be. But there's a difference between that and turning kendo into a wrestling match.

In shiai the benefit of the doubt certainly seems to go to the shover and not the shovee. I once had the chance to ask Koike-sensei about that. He's acted as a referee in several WKC and is the US coach right now, so I think he should know... Anyways, what he said is that if someone gets knocked out of bounds by taiatari resulting from a legitimate attempt at ippon, then it is that persons penalty. I think everyone understands this - so long as your taiatari is a result of your continued motion from a cut, you're legal. What surprised me was to find out that if you just shove or taiatari with no intent for point, that it can still be the aite's penalty. In the case where you are near the boundary and the aite goes out, he must demonstrate that a) he's aware that he's at the boundary and in danger and b) make a decent attempt to defend. So the classic knock the aite off balance with the taiatari from your strike, and then give him another shove while he's still staggering is the aite's penalty because he wasn't able/prepared to defend against the shove. But if you go to push the aite and he is set properly, tries to hold his ground and eventually goes out, then the penalty is against you (or should be, it seems this isn't often called even when it should be).

In the middle of the shiai-jo, excessive shoving should be cause for a hansoku for rough play.

Hope that was helpful. The moral of the story is: in shiai, know where you are!

[JSchmidt]

But if you go to push the aite and he is set properly, tries to hold his ground and eventually goes out, then the penalty is against you (or should be, it seems this isn't often called even when it should be).
I have only seen this called a few times, unfortunatly, despite some very blatant pushing with the sole purposes of pushing the opponent out of bounds.
It's very ugly to watch.

Jakob

[sjp]

At the Bowden and Premier cup taikai last weekend the refs were quite strict on this sort of thing.
Hansoku's handed out for rough play.
Also incorrect actions when in tsubazariai were also penalised as was refusal to break from tsubazariai eg: one person attempts to withdraw to distance and the other just follows him.
Mike Davies made it clear to all refs that this would not be tolerated.

[emitbrownne]

Hmmmm interesting!

I will bare this is mind next time I fence you big guy:devious:
Please do... I need tai-atari practice.. Grrrr :evil:

[JSchmidt]

At the Bowden and Premier cup taikai last weekend the refs were quite strict on this sort of thing.
Hansoku's handed out for rough play.
Also incorrect actions when in tsubazariai were also penalised as was refusal to break from tsubazariai eg: one person attempts to withdraw to distance and the other just follows him.
Mike Davies made it clear to all refs that this would not be tolerated.
That's a refreshing change. Unfortunatly I wasnt able to go to the Bowden due to an email-mix-up!!

Jakob

[taganahan]

i watched a kendo match 2 weeks ago. i saw this person push someone outside the box, and he got a half point for it. so they went on, after that the same person pushed the same opponent outside the box. the referee stopped the match to talk it over the other referees. eventually they decided the other person got the half point, not the one who pushed. this means that excessive pushing might give your opponent half a point.

[Eiliries]

I am a fairly big guy (6'1" and 200 lbs) and being new to Bogu (I've only been wearing Bogu for a month) I'm often guilty of trying to "muscle" people around in shiai. This last practice, after a match that I won, my sensei mentioned that even though "pushing" can win you a match, when you go to test for rank, the Shimpan will remember you as someone who is "ungraceful" or even one who "has poor kendo" based on the excessive amount of pushing in your tactics. My sensei even went so far as to say that "barbarian Kendo" is something that only bullies, and people who completely disregard technique, utilize as a means to win.

I was humbled by the feedback that I got only moments after "winning" a match that I had won by pushing somebody out of the ring, and retrospectively, I would think that although you can "win" with pushing and shoving, a more graceful, mature way to approach shiai technique would be through utilizing means that are based in the Kendo fundamentals, which I'm sure we could all stand to learn a little bit better

Don't worry, you are new, mistakes are expected.

[Andoru]

Excessive shoving or manhandling is unnecessary and will generally impede your progress in kendo. Certainly you should know how to give and receive taiatari, and use it to your advantage in shiai if need be. But there's a difference between that and turning kendo into a wrestling match.

In shiai the benefit of the doubt certainly seems to go to the shover and not the shovee. I once had the chance to ask Koike-sensei about that. He's acted as a referee in several WKC and is the US coach right now, so I think he should know... Anyways, what he said is that if someone gets knocked out of bounds by taiatari resulting from a legitimate attempt at ippon, then it is that persons penalty. I think everyone understands this - so long as your taiatari is a result of your continued motion from a cut, you're legal. What surprised me was to find out that if you just shove or taiatari with no intent for point, that it can still be the aite's penalty. In the case where you are near the boundary and the aite goes out, he must demonstrate that a) he's aware that he's at the boundary and in danger and b) make a decent attempt to defend. So the classic knock the aite off balance with the taiatari from your strike, and then give him another shove while he's still staggering is the aite's penalty because he wasn't able/prepared to defend against the shove. But if you go to push the aite and he is set properly, tries to hold his ground and eventually goes out, then the penalty is against you (or should be, it seems this isn't often called even when it should be).

In the middle of the shiai-jo, excessive shoving should be cause for a hansoku for rough play.

Hope that was helpful. The moral of the story is: in shiai, know where you are! I agree entirely. Having said that, it also helps if one is aware of one's position at all time and try not to be put in a position where a half-hearted taiatari would put one over the line.

Thank goodness Kirby Smith taught us techniques on how to wheel around the shiaijo (thank you "deathbykendo").

[aikanaro]

i think if someone wants to win just with pushing around it wouldn't be too bad to answer with some fast tsuki- even if you don't score a point, it'll at least make the other one stop when he sees that he's just running into your sword (what also hurts...)

... and if you are not allowed to do tsuki yet, stand in a firm kamae... most of the time the opponent will run into your shinai, generally just once... not very pleasant to do several times ;)

... other way around, if the other just keeps pushing it's better to deflect his push and make him 'slide' to one side. then turn around and strike when he turns, or if you want, strike and then put some distance going backwards, nearer to the center of the area ... retreat diagonally somewhat off-center, sometimes the other needs a little time to get his bearings and yours, and this gives you time to get ready :)

[Matlock]

...As for pushing/shoving in shia, it's a complex issue. Everything that happens during the bout happen as a rate faster than your mind can comprehend at times. That's what shia-keiko teaches you, react fast. if you should stand there to wait to receive a forceful men-uchi, and then wait some more for the opponent to continue to run over you. Then I think there is much room for improvement in your kendo. It isn't very nice to push or to shove people out of bounce, but these people really don't progress after a certain level anyways.Masahiro-san, I understand fully what you mean but you do not understand what everyone is talking about. You are talking about average kendo in the course of good waza. Everyone else is talking about the practice of the "less-skilled" to actually, push their opponents as in some perverted sumo match, outside the boundary. I saw this a number of times in the Seattle area and thought it was the ugliest thing that I have ever seen in kendo. As you mentioned, it is normal for the opponent to continue his motion after a strike and "run" into you thus knocking you back, but when two people are near the edge of the ring with hands stuck straight out trying to push the other guy, it makes you wonder what are they thinking. I feel everyone is right on target about trying to counter such a lame technique but for those of us who would like to practice a higher level of kendo should try to avoid the "sumo" technique.

Along those same lines, I saw a guy turn his entire kendo match in trying to knock the shinai out of the other person's hand. He did not win the match but why not go for the "Men" where the points are and not trying to foul-out your opponent. (Angry voice...must calm down) Waza, my friends, waza. Maybe the "shinai-knock-out-of-hand" is a waza, but it is not very pretty. （美剣道）

The boundry line, or other fouls, should not be a sought means of victory. Beat your opponent with kendo waza and leave the sumo to the professionals. Unless you are a ninja...then I guess anything is ok :-)

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Maybe the "shinai-knock-out-of-hand" is a waza, but it is not very pretty.
There are waza designed for just this purpose, somebody around here has mentioned that they regularly practice at least one, it may have been Old Warrior, but not sure.

That doesn't mean the person you were watching was applying any recognizable waza of course.

[Lloromannic]

There are waza designed for just this purpose, somebody around here has mentioned that they regularly practice at least one, it may have been Old Warrior, but not sure.

That doesn't mean the person you were watching was applying any recognizable waza of course.
I think it is called makiotoshi, you do a spiraling sort of movement with your shinai and then cast down (or up) the other persons shinai. I am proud to have been oon the recieving end of it once. It was very well done but there was a bad thing, after my shinai flew out of my hands it landed on my foot.

[kanyil]

we had a shiai-keiko a few weeks ago where this guy was trying very hard to push everyone he came up against out of bounds.

I think the whole thing started when (1) the first timers realized how difficult it was to score an ippon during shiai; (2) the guy in question got awarded half a point after having tai-ataried his first opponent out of bounds (who was standing next to the lines and lost balance) and realized that it might be an easy way to win.

Guess nobody told him that excessive pushing will land him with a hansoku instead (which happened in his third match, where he pushed his opponent across half the shiai-jo and out of bounds). It was the funniest thing to see but I guess the senseis should have told him about the rules relating to pushing before the shiai-keiko.

[Matlock]

we had a shiai-keiko a few weeks ago where this guy was trying very hard to push everyone he came up against out of bounds....Guess nobody told him that excessive pushing will land him with a hansoku instead (which happened in his third match, where he pushed his opponent across half the shiai-jo and out of bounds). It was the funniest thing to see but I guess the senseis should have told him about the rules relating to pushing before the shiai-keiko.Well said, Kanyil, I feel the same way when I saw those less skilled or less confident players try to push their way to victory. I was always taught even in shiai kendo it is not about winning, it is about performing good kendo. Winning is a result of the good kendo.;)

[Masahiro]

Winning is a result of the good kendo.;)
i like that. .. ...