Tsunami Paul Chen [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

FRAGMASTER

17th June 2004, 07:44 PM

if you have only used a bokken in the past i would strongly suggest that you dont use a live bladed instrument for your practice (loss of fingers). use an IAITO instead, they are still exelent swords but not as sharp. hanwei produce iaitos to a high quaity. check out this web site for some grate photos of the hanwei paul chen nami iaito http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/CASNAMI .

But if you do want a cheap but strong and durable live blade then check out the hanwei paul chen practical katana - cheep but very nice http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/PC1070GT

Charles Mahan

17th June 2004, 11:35 PM

Sounds like he wants to practice tameshigiri, in which case he should really check with his Sensei. Tameshigiri should not be practiced by people without proper instruction.

louisvandalen

17th June 2004, 11:57 PM

Dear all,

I want to practice both and I go to a dojo for the iaido bit. They don't practice tameshigiri in our dojo (yet). I won't start swinging a lethal weapon arround without proper exercise, don't worry about that. First of all i want to use it for iaido but i don't want to buy a blunt iaito (which are rather expensive to) just to find myself buying a shinken in a couple of months (which will cost about the same). I just wondered if the balance/weight of the Tsunami is good enough for iaido.

Regards,

Louis

p.s. Just in case, are there any finger protectors ?

Charles Mahan

18th June 2004, 01:02 AM

I trained Iai for 5 years before being told it was time to purchase a shinken. I doubt it will be a matter of months, but again this is a question for your sensei.

chidokan

18th June 2004, 06:40 AM

beginners with shinken scare the hell out of me, you dont know where its going next, and half the time they aint looking to see where its going either. We have banned them from mixed grade seminars, unless you are doing embu in the middle of the hall by yourself. People sometimes just seem to forget they are in a room full of swords swinging about....and wander around as if on a stroll in the park.
Personally I recommend people to buy an iaito, then save up to buy a nice personalised one when they visit Japan. This does two things...first of all it shows a commitment to learning, and secondly allows them to go through a lot larger selection and choose something that they really like the look of and has a good balance, as they can try them all out and not just end up with what comes through the post.
It also stops swords ending up in the wrong hands when someone just turns up, buys a sword, then decides he doesnt like iaido and just sells the blade to any local idiot who fancies a sword...

louisvandalen

18th June 2004, 05:25 PM

Hi there,

As i practice kendo (haven't been last month due to work) and the training times with iaido overlap eachother (same dojo) I can train iaido only for 1 hour a week. This is in the dojo and i'm using the bokken there. It doesn't have a scabbard so it's kind of crap. I'm planning to use the Tsunami at home or when i have to stay over in a hotel (in my room, don't worry, I'll try to avoid the lobby). Trying to pick up one kata each week at the dojo to practice that one the rest of the week in my spare time. I'm almost 31 and was in the army and eventually in the former yugoslavia for three years during the war. So don't be affraid that I'm dangerous in the presence of lethal weapons. Was just trying to figure out how the balance was on the Tsunami.

Regards,

Louis

Charles Mahan

18th June 2004, 08:57 PM

What does your sensei say about getting a shinken? As I mentioned, it took me a good 5 years of training on average 4 to 5 hours a week to get to a point to where I wouldn't cut my fingers off during nukitsuke and noto. Another problem for beginners with shinken is that it can teach you a lot of bad habbits. Your so busy trying to do noto and nukitsuke without cutting something off, that you alter the form in an attempt to make it safer. That's just not a good way to train. Training on iaito will allow you to work on your form without worrying about finishing the day with all your fingers still attached. Then when you're form is pretty solid, switching to a shinken is a relatively straightforward affair, consisting of a few scary months where you have to learn to trust what you've learned over the past several years.

louisvandalen

18th June 2004, 09:36 PM

That's one of the reasons why i wanted to buy a shinken. I've read many articles about people that started out with an iaito that really had to get used to the shinken (weight, sharpness etc.) Thought I could skip them months by using a shinken from the beginning. I already ordered the Tsunami, but i'll practice with my bokken for the comming time (its still crap without a scabbard).

If i go real slow on the movements with the shinken don't you think that the proper technique can be learned? As soon as the technique is there I can try and speed up the movements?

Anyway they are just to expensive to buy both (for me at the moment). And i wanna do some tameshigiri also in a few months.

My sensei didn't like the idear of me waving a shinken arround very much (especially not in class).

Guess I shouldn't but I did.

Story of my life :)

Regards,

Louis

p.s. I still would like to know if these Tsunamies are properly balanced.

Charles Mahan

18th June 2004, 10:41 PM

What's the rush? You go a duel coming up? And no I don't really think that going slow is gonna make what you want to do possible. There are some things in life you just can't rush. You gotta pay your dues like everyone else. This is one of those thing. You will need to go really slow with an iaito to get the techniques down, much less a shinken.

If your sensei doesn't think you should, then you sure as heck shouldn't. Alienating one's sensei is a good way to end up out on the street with no instruction. Then how will you fix yoru technique?

Go to Swordstore.com. Longterm you're gonna want an iaito anyway. There are just some days when you want to train, that you just don't feel up to a shinken. Perhaps there are too many people around, perhaps you just don't feel good and done want to worry about severing the thumb on your left hand, because you got careless and let it slip off the saya a bit during nukitsuke.

Patience is part of the training.

Ren Blade

18th June 2004, 10:59 PM

One thing about the Paul Chen Tsunami is that it's definitely beautiful. I was checking it out at a knife store a couple weekends ago. It's pretty much another Practical Katana with better fittings, a slightly better balance, and thicker blade. It's just so expensive because of the fittings and probably because of the thicker blade. I haven't cut with it yet, but I cut with my Practical Plus Katana at a tameshigiri seminar last month May. I imagine that cutting with the Tsunami may feel similar since the 2 swords are built similar. The sensei who ran the seminar told me that the Tsunami cuts very well when I emailed him about it. I may get it in the future simply for tameshigiri and as an nice display piece on my sword rack in between tameshigiri sessions. But I think I'll be ordering a Bugei sword first before dropping any cash on the Tsunami. I just want the Tsunami simply for it's fittings.

As for a live blade for Iaido practice, as a beginner I would be against it. Drawing and sheathing would be dangerous still. There's another beginner in my class that's using his Paul Chen Practical Katana. He's often cutting his fingers when drawing and sheathing and bleeding from it. I would take Charles Mahan's advice. I only use an Iaito for Kata practice. I save the Shinken for actually cutting sessions. Since you already ordered it, don't use it for Iaido practice yet. Just get yourself a sword rack and display it for now. Invest in a nice Iaito from www.swordstore.com (http://www.swordstore.com/) or www.bugei.com (http://www.bugei.com/). You'll still get alot of enjoyment from practicing with an Iaito. Just be patient and wait til your sensei tells you to switch to a Shinken. Practicing patience is a virtue of Iaido right? If you rush to use a Shinken for kata practice, then you wouldn't be developing the patience needed from Iaido.

louisvandalen

18th June 2004, 11:45 PM

Ok,

I guess you guys are right (looking at my thumb makes me shiver at the moment) :). I'll leave the Tsunami on the wall for now. Damn, I was really looking forward swinging the thing arround and kill some bats meanwhile.

I'll get myself a shitty Iaito from a local shop and use that for now. I guess I don't need a 400euro/$ one just for practice. Hope my sensei will share that feeling as i'm out off cash at the moment (payed for the Tsunami and my summer holiday). I've seen display katana's for about 40euro/$, the fittings seemed to be pretty sturdy (2 bamboo pegs and a full tang construction).

Thanks for the advice, not really what I hoped for but probably for the best.

Yours faithfully,

Louis

www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)

Charles Mahan

18th June 2004, 11:50 PM

That sounds suspiciously like a 440 stainless wallhanger. These are not at all suited to practice. They are just too brittle. They are made to hang on a wall and that's about it. Check http://www.swordstore.com (http://www.swordstore.com/) and http://www.bugei.com (http://www.bugei.com/) Also get your sensei's advice on these as well. A blade that snaps midswing and pins your sensei to the wall is not a good way to curry favor with sensei, or the other students for that matter.

I notice your in the Netherlands. I know this is a silly question, but budo communities tend to me small places... You wouldn't happen to know Wout Verschueren would you? He's a Godan Iaido instructor in Melsbroek, Belgium http://www.eishin-ryu.be/

Ren Blade

19th June 2004, 01:10 AM

You shouldn't have rushed to buy the Tsunami if that's all the cash you had. For less amount you can get a low end Iaito from www.swordstore.com (http://www.swordstore.com/) or www.bugei.com (http://www.bugei.com/). Also like Charles Mahan said, a cheap stainless steel Iaito is not the way to go. Stainless steel can snap cause the material is brittle. Aside from a piece breaking from your stainless steel blade and it flying or flipping at your sensei stabbing him/her or other classmates practicing, the broken piece could flip back at you and stab yourself and there'll be nothing you can do about it. Invest a few hundred dollars on a nice Iaito from swordstore or bugei. When I said you'll still get enjoyment out of practicing with an Iaito, I meant with a good Iaito from the previously mentioned websites. You'll get no enjoyment out of a stainless steel Iaito that will break and unintentionally hurt or kill someone or yourself in class. The good Iaitos are made from aluminum/zinc and those are stronger and will last for years. Of course never hit anything with it, but at least they won't snap from just being swung or accidentally hitting something hard around you. And these good Iaitos can run around $350 - $400.00 plus for a low end model. So you shouldn't have made the mistake of ordering an expensive Shinken first before investing in an Iaito. For now, don't get a stainless steel Iaito (crappy Iaitos), and just use your bokken for now til you have saved up for a quality Iaito from swordstore or bugei. And let your Tsunami hang on the wall for the meantime til you are instructed by your sensei to use a live blade.

Bleda

19th June 2004, 04:26 PM

If you need a cheap iaito your best bet is to buy from this ebayer's store:

http://stores.ebay.com/Gichudo_W0QQsspagenameZl2QQtZkm

I know 7 people (myself and 6 others) that own swords from this shop and are extremely sattisfied with the quality and the shipping. Also since the euro is strong right now it will be fairly cheap for you so you really can't go wrong with one of his swords.

Edit: Also his available swords are always rotating on the site so your best bet is to email him directly with what you are looking for and take a look at his entire selection available to him before making a purchase.

shinzou

19th June 2004, 11:01 PM

Bleda

20th June 2004, 01:02 PM

Lol sadly no, i need everyone that buys from him to give me the referal =) I hope you are enjoying your sword though. I just find it helpful to let other practicioners know that it is possible to buy a well made japanese iaito for the same price as the paul chen stuff.

lifestudent

18th July 2004, 05:51 AM

I've been lurking on this site for the past month. I originally found it when this thread came up on google when I was researching what kind of sword to buy next. I study at home through books and DVDs as there is no school within a commutable distance of me(I'm transportationally challenged in Palm Springs, CA.). I've been practicing with the bokken for months and wanted something a bit more satisfying to train with.

The advice on this thread was particular helpful and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted here and thanks to Louis for asking the question in the first place. I decided to go with a Paul Chen Gorin Iaito. It was relatively inexpensive(I paid about 250 after shipping and handling) and is very satisfying. The big thank you comes from an incident that happened the other morning where I may well have lost a finger or two. When I found this thread, I was really looking for opinions on what katana to buy, but after reading the posts here and in other threads, I decided to err on the side of caution and go with an iaito. I don't regret that deciscion one bit and I am very happy with the Gorin. Thanks again.

Tsurugi

27th July 2004, 03:56 AM

umm... The paul chen tsunami does sound like a great katana but... it's to expensive...:disapp:

louisvandalen

27th July 2004, 05:42 PM

To expensive? It was the only blade I could find that was less then 500$ and that can be used for cutting. The Tsuba and others are really nice, I don't regret buying the blade. Which one would you get?

Best Regards,

Louis
www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)

zero

28th July 2004, 04:04 PM

[QUOTE=louisvandalen]Ok,

I'll get myself a shitty Iaito from a local shop and use that for now. I guess I don't need a 400euro/$ one just for practice. Hope my sensei will share that feeling as i'm out off cash at the moment (payed for the Tsunami and my summer holiday). I've seen display katana's for about 40euro/$, the fittings seemed to be pretty sturdy (2 bamboo pegs and a full tang construction).QUOTE]

If you are really looking for a good Iato go to http://www.swordarmory.com/03kats/03index.html
they should have them now

Bleda

28th July 2004, 04:11 PM

Price to value its a good deal, nice ferocious cutter if a bit heavy for iai use but with training it can be used for kata aswell. A good cutting katana will cost on the low end for a paul chen practical katana $160ish, if you want one with more authentic fittings you are talking around 400 dollars-800 dollars, and if you want a good folded blade you are talking 1K-10K. Swords built for use are not cheap and the rule "you get what you pay for" goes double for swords.

You could buy stainless steel wall hanger with rediculously thin and light blade that snaps at the first sign of hitting something or even more frightening in midair due to poor construction. Or you can spend your money and buy something that will last for decades if properly cared for.

Tsurugi

29th July 2004, 03:04 AM

Ninjujinkaku

29th July 2004, 04:41 PM

Tsunami isnt the cheapest live blade made by paul chen go here

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/hanwei1070gt.htm

I dont know whats it is about this forum are people here getting a kick back for iaito sales? Also swordstore.com is not the best place, my sensei got a katana from the 1400s (not in perfect shape) for 600 dollars one day because a guy quit iaido and was selling his in a hurry. Ive also used one of his 16th century katanas (it was heavy with a long handle) im sure he didnt pay more than 1200 for it. I think you have to ask your sensei if he knows anyone selling a used shinken you could get lucky.

Charles Mahan

29th July 2004, 10:38 PM

Well. You see many of us have been training in legitimate systems long enough to know something about how things are usually done, and usually beginners start with iaito so as not to injure themselves or others. Plus we hate to see people waste their money on crap that they will not be allowed to train with if they ever do find a legitimate dojo.

The Tsunami is a good example. Someone showing up for their first lesson at our dojo, or any Seitokai/ZNIR affiliated dojo in this country for that matter, would be told they could not train with that weapon for 5 or 6 years or so minimum, and maybe not then. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality or lack thereof of a Tsunami. It has everything to do with it being a shinken and the fact that the way we do noto and nukitsuke is inherently dangerous for beginners. A student could show up with virtually any iaito and be allowed to use it although it might not be ideal for our style.

Add that to the fact that an iaito is far less likely to lop off some untrained idiots fingers, thus landing him in the papers, and more importantly being held up as one more example of why these nasty samurai swords should be banned outright by the government as dangerous toys.

As for the swords you have mentioned, there are a couple of possibilities. One is that your instructor managed to get astoundingly good deals if the blades were still mountings and polishes that were decent enough to make them usable. A second possibility is that he was sold a production sword and told that it was older. There are other possibilities, but you get the idea. Suffice it to say that real katana of those ages do not normally sell for anywhere near those prices unless they're in pretty bad shape. Go to a swordshow one day. You'll learn a lot by talking to the collectors.

Bleda

30th July 2004, 12:23 PM

i almost bought a 200 year old blade for 900 dollars on swordforum's classifieds. Would have needed a good finishing polish and mountign but it would have been about 2K total.

Tsurugi

4th August 2004, 04:15 AM

I can't collect nor purchase any hanwei katanas. Because they're dangerous, sharp, no false-edge ones, and I've been angered by one of the forums.So those are the reasons I cannot get any hanwei katanas

Macbeth

6th August 2004, 06:07 AM

I got a new Gorin IAito for sale. But I only send it within Europe. A friend of mine bought it one week ago. But it is too short for him. So he decided to sell it. He bought it for 399€. The blade is forge from carbon steel not from a alloy. The nagasa is 29 inch.
I am asking 300€ + shipping. I know that this sword can be purchased for under 300$ in the USA. But in Germany an Europe it is sold for about 399€. And you have to pay high duty if you purchase one from the US.
So 300€ is a fair price for a new Gorin IAito within the EU.
If interested here is my email.

xray4@web.de

best regards

Mac

gsx1100s

11th August 2004, 11:52 AM

On the subject of Paul Chen forge . has anyone seen these helmets in the flesh? I know it's a bit of an indulgance , but I've always wanted a Takeda Shingen replica helmet on my desk in my study.Here's the link:

http://www.swordarmory.com/armor/1082gt.htm

cheers Michael

gsx1100s

11th August 2004, 12:07 PM

HMMMMMMMMMMM had a second closer look at the site. The fact that Takeda is spelt tokeda , would that give me a clue as to the standard of the helmet or is it just a typo?

cheers Michael

Ninjujinkaku

11th August 2004, 01:00 PM

Charles Mahan

11th August 2004, 01:38 PM

Well you are free to discuss the wisdom of starting new students off with iaito with Ikeda-soke. 50 years ago it was not uncommon to start with a shinken which had had it's edge removed for the protection of the student. The edge could be put back on later when the student was ready.

As for your claim that I have somehow disparaged your system, you will note if you actually read what I wrote, that I used the word "usually". Not always. And usually within legitimate koryu systems, new students start off with iaito. A small number, including at least one splinter branch of MJER, do not. But in terms of offering general guidelines for new students and potential students who frequently don't even have an idea of where they will be starting, the generally accepted wisdom is to encourage them to buy an iaito. And yes Virginia there are definitely crap shinken.

Now get off your high horse and do something constructive. Go over to E-budo and Swordforum and post a query for information regarding how many dojos and styles start off new students with a live blade. Educate yourself.

Ninjujinkaku

11th August 2004, 01:46 PM

Notice i said bokken first? then shinken. Also I have not had any trouble with shinken ive only been doing iai for 3 months, A new student (1 month) about just got to use a shinken for the first time last week and he did fine as well.

Charles Mahan

11th August 2004, 02:11 PM

So in your school you aren't a beginner anymore after 1 month?

Which school was that again? I think you mentioned it in another post, but I can't remember.

Of course it doesn't really matter what your school does or why. It is still very much in the minority of iai schools, and what you do will not change the prevailing wisdom of how to advice new and prospective students with regards to what they should purchase. The general advice starts off with "Ask Your Sensei". When the usual answer of, "I don't have one yet" comes through, the usual response is "then don't get one yet". When the usual response of "But I REALLY want one!" comes back, our answer is, "Well ok, but you should probably purchase an iaito, because it is the most likely to be acceptable in the vast majority of schools, and in the meantime you get a weapon with typically better fittings than most of the Paul Chen blades, and which won't rust if you don't take perfect care of it."

Why is any of this any skin off your teeth?

Ninjujinkaku

11th August 2004, 02:28 PM

I dont own a shinken but if someone has the money to buy a shinken I think they should get one instead of buying a iaito. Also after a student is deemed so he can use shinken it depends on the student, you are still a beginner its just that now you are useing a real blade instead of bokken. Plus if your school practices cutting it is cheaper just to buy a shinken then to buy a iaito and then a shinken . Last legend makes decent shinken too, the fittings might not be good, I'm not saying I would buy one from last legend but people should keep their options open. Also i think it is quite sad that my school is rare to practice with shinken i guess im just lucky,Its funny my judo classes is also rare as we learn kata in it were most judo schools in america only focus on randori,but imagainst you mainly always suggesting buying iaito to people before even asking them if their schools lets them use shinken.

gsx1100s

11th August 2004, 03:45 PM

Just a question . Is there any point to buying a Shinken , unless your school teaches actual cutting techniques? And also wouldn't it be good to own an Iaito and a Shinken ( if thats what you choose), so you can practice new Katas etc with the Iaito then move onto the Shinken when profficient enough.Not a criticism just a question:)

I'm only a beginner ( I've been doing Iaido for about 4-5 months) I'm still using a Bokken/saya , happily , more due to lack of money rather than choice.
When I can afford a blade it will be an Iaito due to the fact that I don't do any real cutting and also I have three very inquisitive kids lol

cheers Michael

Charles Mahan

11th August 2004, 09:45 PM

Yes eventually within Iai training, you simply must switch to a shinken. You'll never really be able to get the finer points of saya manipulation and edge alignment within the saya without one. Shinken are very very unforgiving of even the smallest amount of misalignment. That whole razor sharp thing. If your alignment isn't just right it will dig into the saya, over time it will carve the saya up, and if your doing things particularly wrong, a bad bit of sayabiki and it can cut it's way through the saya and your left hand. So at some point you need the feedback of a live blade to really get noto and nukitsuke down. Add to that the fact that even really good iaito, just don't seem to handle quite the same. They're close enough that the untrained wouldn't recognize the difference, but the trained usually can.

Also i think it is quite sad that my school is rare to practice with shinken i guess im just lucky,Its funny my judo classes is also rare as we learn kata in it were most judo schools in america only focus on randori,but imagainst you mainly always suggesting buying iaito to people before even asking them if their schools lets them use shinken.
Again I'll let you discuss your wisdom with the people who lead the various koryu in Japan who do not allow early in practice. I'm sure you can convince them. And you REALLY need to start reading what I write.

The general advice starts off with "Ask Your Sensei". When the usual answer of, "I don't have one yet" comes through, the usual response is "then don't get one yet". When the usual response of "But I REALLY want one!" comes back, our answer is, "Well ok, but you should probably purchase an iaito, because it is the most likely to be acceptable in the vast majority of schools, and in the meantime you get a weapon with typically better fittings than most of the Paul Chen blades, and which won't rust if you don't take perfect care of it."

Note that I do in fact say "Ask Your Sensei" as the first response. Then I suggest that they don't get one at all until they have a sensei. It is only after they insist on getting one anyway that I suggest they get an iaito if they just have to have something. If you're gonna try to make me out to be the bad guy, at least find something that I've done legitimately wrong. Stop trying to make stuff up.

gsx1100s

12th August 2004, 01:22 PM

I've been looking at these cheaper blades. they don't seem to offer different lengths in the blade. Some even say there might be a difference of 1/2 inch or so in what is stated and what you get. I thought the length of the blade was very important when it comes to Iaido, and that it was a very personal thing.Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

cheers Michael

Charles Mahan

12th August 2004, 10:20 PM

Depends on the style how important it is. For MJER, it tends to run a bit on the long side. I'm 5'6" and I need a 2-4-5 or a 2-5 to really workout well. I can use longer or shorter, but that is length I should use for the techniques to work the way they are supposed to. Shorter and I won't be forced to work on saya-biki as much as I should. Longer and I'll have to use extra hip to make nukitsuke work properly. That's not a departure from MJER BTW, just a modification. There's kind of a range of sizes that work, but there's definitely a sweetspot, and for me it's 2-4-5 to 2-5. For someone closer to say, 6' it would be closer to a 2-6. Longer arms.

I'm generally ok, because 2-5 or so is usually the upper end for what is commonly available. Much above that though and you'll have to find a line of swords which offers longer lengths or have one custom made. A tsunami at 28 inches would be a little short for me.