"Old Time" Kendo

[Geophizz]

The exerpt from F.J. norman's book was fascinating, especially the photos of the old techniques. Are there any additional sources for Pre-war Kendo or Meiji era techniques?

Mark Stoughton

[Dobedog]

YES!! Where can sources of such information be found (English preferred). Technical descriptions of some old techniques ("How to do them" & "how to start to learn them" & "When to use them" - or would how used them if not practical now) would GREATLY interest me as well. Maybe KW could make it a regular feature in the magazine?

Modern kendo, as with AJKF kendo & iaido kata, seem to be a condensed version of Japanese sword arts. Though this modern refined, if limited, repertory may be today's best for instilling the character building aspects and modern competition aspects of kendo, while increasing safety and utility on the limited target selection, (I'm certainly not qualified to comment on that), I would find learning and training in the older techniques, geared more for old world battle & dualing purposes, immensely interesting and valuable as an add-on to my regular kendo training.

Dobedog

[alexpollijr]

Well, I got that KENDO - Japanese Fencing video made in 1960 which shows post-war kendo but with that old flavour. Very interesting.

[Geophizz]

I have that video too. In fact my sensei is the brother of Matsubara Sensei in the kata portion of the video.

I have this fantasy of tying in my Kendo and Judo experiences together, and I believe that some of the pre-war techniques would probably fill the bill nicely.

[ben]

My feeling is if you really tried to incorporate some "old time kendo" moves into your jigeiko, you would end up hospitalising your colleagues or being hospitalised yourself. Here are a few pre-war waza of which I have heard (in no particular order):
1) ashi-barai and various jujitsu waza (painful on a wooden floor, v.dangerous if your opponent doesn't know how to fall)
2) tai-atari through doors and windows
3) yoko-men to the ear to burst opponent's eardrum
4) tsuki to any unprotected area you like (under the tsuki-dare to strike the throat proper and to the side of the tsuki-dare to violently twist the head were two special techniques).

Granted some of the stories will have been 'embroidered' by the old turtles to sound more impressive. But my 82 y.o. sensei does wear hearing aids in both ears from damage in jigeiko. They were different times. We should be careful about wanting to emulate them too closely. Safety was absolutely NOT a concern and this is what drove many of the techniques. In this day and age you would (will) get sued.

Totally OTOH however, that article has really made me think a lot about the differences then and now. I mean, how did anyone survive the training? Have we lost something by not risking quite so much in our training as back then? Hmm...

b

PS - Where can I get that video?

[Geophizz]

You've got a point there. I've got no intention of actually using them, but just for my own edification, delight and surprise than anything else, I have this craving to tie my martial arts syllibi together in some way, and I was thingking that some of the old time techniques may fill the gaps.

I got video from Amazon. Here's the link to the video

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305434786/qid=1034256328/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3550894-0265605?v=glance

Mark

[R A Sosnowski]

That tape on the label is copyright 1961 to a "Benjamin Hazard." Dr. Hazard is now Hachidan Hanshi in Kendo (also Sandan in Kyudo, and Sandan in Naginata), and professor emeritus of Asian History at San Jose State University. He was instrumental in bringing Kendo, Kyudo and Naginata to the US West Coast.

I have met him several times as he is the father of one of my Naginata instructors, Malyne Hazard (Godan in Kendo, Renshi in Naginata).

He was with the US occupation force in Japan after the end of WWII, having been trained in Japanese as part of his US Army training; he was able to train with a number of notable Kendo instructors during the occupation. He has a number of wonderful stories about the "old days." He has been interviewed several times, but I don't know if those interviews have been published; I would like to interview him myself the next time I am out in the [San Francisco] Bay area.

BTW, he also appears in that videotape.

Regards,
Raymond Sosnowski

[R A Sosnowski]

There is a group here in the USA which claims to teach a pre-WWII form of Kendo, Kogen-ha Itto Ryu, called the US Classical Kendo Federation.

Go to http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/6305/ to check it out.

HTH,
Raymond Sosnowski

[lewis]

I also wanted to combine Kendo and Judo. As you have pointed out, getting tossed on a wood floor can be hazardous (although a late sensei of mine used to do it occationally to show lack of concentration and it was clear he had been well trained in it) - bogu is terrible to fall in. So I have been doing Chanbara on the side with a number of jujitsu/judo/karate people. While Chanbara's formal rules are exactly the same as Kendo's down to ki-ken-tai-ichi, since there is no do or tare and we practice on a wrestling mat it lends itself to judo and other moves.

I have noticed three main things from this practice:
a) your spirit and commitment are determinative even more than in traditional kendo;
b) kendokas are at a disadvantage fighting people with longer/different weapons. Probably because those people train to fight against swords and kendokas don't train to fight against yari, escrima, bo, naginata, etc.; and
c) there are huge gaps (as, I am sure, all of us realize) in AJKF kendo as a combat system and even as a sword combat system. (Try explaining to a non-kendoka that a do doesn't count because you were in chudan or a missed men that hits your shoulder isn't a point, for instance.) Like any sport, kendo has adapted itself to its rules and most kendokas learn to ignore things that wouldn't be a point in kendo but would be bad news in real life.

I found that if you don't score on your first strike (which, on a positive note, kendokas are very much more likely to do than practitioners of other arts), you become open to all sorts of nasty things that kendokas aren't taught to counter (because they are either against the kendo rules or just plain don't count as a point in shiai). My favorite is sweeping my opponent when in tsuba-zerai.

All in all, my experiment in Chanbara has taught me that in kendo practice I had been drawn into a rut of focusing on scoring the point (which is relatively easy) rather than defeating the opponent and keeping an eye on the big picture.

My understanding of the Classical Kendo Federation is that, while they do formal shinai kendo using AJKF rules as well, techniques that address the aforementioned gaps are a significant part of their teaching.

[stakenaka]

I heard that Kumiuchi (grappling) was (well, it still is) very dangerous, leading to many broken collar bones. This is one of the reasons it was abandoned.
Also, there was the fact that if you fell on your back, the weight of the men gane slammed your head on the floor, leading to concussions.

Of course, if you wanted to go totally old school, we could start using fukuro shinais again but I'll pass on that: they hurt like hell!!!

[R A Sosnowski]

So I have been doing Chanbara on the side with a number of jujitsu/judo/karate people. While Chanbara's formal rules are exactly the same as Kendo's down to ki-ken-tai-ichi, since there is no do or tare and we practice on a wrestling mat it lends itself to judo and other moves

I am going to start a new thread on this one as I'd like to explore the topic of Chambara more.

I have noticed three main things from this practice:
a) your spirit and commitment are determinative even more than in traditional kendo;

Don't you mean Chambara as compared to modern Kendo?

b) kendokas are at a disadvantage fighting people with longer/different weapons. Probably because those people train to fight against swords and kendokas don't train to fight against yari, escrima, bo, naginata, etc.; and

The Idea of Isshu Jidai, mixed weapons sparring such as Itto Kendo vs. Naginata, did happen, and not all that long ago. My Naginata instructor, Ms. Miyako Tanaka (Naginata Kyushi) in California (USA), has recounted such events from her training in Japan. There have been Itto Kendo vs. Naginata demonstrations at the Guelph [Ontario, Canada] School of Japanese Sword Arts in 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2002. However, what was common-place in Japan is an absolute novelty in North America as the number of Naginata-ka is miniscule compared to the number of Kendo-ka.


c) there are huge gaps (as, I am sure, all of us realize) in AJKF kendo as a combat system and even as a sword combat system. (Try explaining to a non-kendoka that a do doesn't count because you were in chudan or a missed men that hits your shoulder isn't a point, for instance.) Like any sport, kendo has adapted itself to its rules and most kendokas learn to ignore things that wouldn't be a point in kendo but would be bad news in real life.

Post-WWII Kendo is probably best described as a Martial Sport with regards to the actual practice. It was never formulated to be a combat system. The same case can be made for Olympic-style Fencing; those techniques would be a good way to get killed in a duel with rapiers or sabers.

I found that if you don't score on your first strike (which, on a positive note, kendokas are very much more likely to do than practitioners of other arts), you become open to all sorts of nasty things that kendokas aren't taught to counter (because they are either against the kendo rules or just plain don't count as a point in shiai).

This concept of scoring on the first strike comes from the philosophy of Itto Ryu, which is the basis of Kendo.

All in all, my experiment in Chanbara has taught me that in kendo practice I had been drawn into a rut of focusing on scoring the point (which is relatively easy) rather than defeating the opponent and keeping an eye on the big picture.

That is an absolute gem of an observation IMHO.

My understanding of the Classical Kendo Federation is that, while they do formal shinai kendo using AJKF rules as well, techniques that address the aforementioned gaps are a significant part of their teaching.

That is my understanding too.

Regards,
Raymond Sosnowski

[lewis]

In reply to Raymond Sosnowski,

The answer to your question is "yes."

Additionally, I replied to your new thread.

[ben]

"That tape on the label is copyright 1961 to a "Benjamin Hazard." Dr. Hazard is now Hachidan Hanshi in Kendo (also Sandan in Kyudo, and Sandan in Naginata), and professor emeritus of Asian History at San Jose State University. He was instrumental in bringing Kendo, Kyudo and Naginata to the US West Coast. "

He sounds like a very interesting man. I was not aware that any 'gaijin' had ever achieved 8 dan.

b