Did I do something terribly wrong?

[Andoru]

This is not a bitch-n-moan thread. I just need some questions answered.

I visited another dojo last night. Training was good, I really enjoyed it.

During jigeiko, I went up against a dan player. It was our very first jigeiko. He scored a good men on me, I acknowledged it, and there was a mini-break of about 3 secs (I was pondering on his men cut). He sonkyo immediately after that and said "if you want to take a break then get out of here" or words to that effect. The tone wasn't friendly at all. I was in shock. Anyway I sonkyo and bow properly and sat down afterwards in seiza completely stunned. Then he came over to me and said the same thing again, but this time there were dojo members around who heard him as well. I nodded my head but I didn't say anything.

My spirit died there and then and I have lost any will to do jigeiko that night. :(

Right now I still don't understand what I did wrong. It's the first time someone has taken offense. I'm trying to develop good kendo spirit and to do good kendo, so I need to understand. Can you guys enlighten me?

[DCPan]

IMHO, it is unreasonable for the host to expect that their guest would know the dojo protocols, esp on the first visit.

That said, however, I personally don't recommend pausing during jigeiko, esp if you are a guest and/or junior to the other person.

I was taught that if the other partner is obviously senior to you, acknowledging the strike can appear presumptuous.

Moreover, it can be kind of annoying to have the flow of the keiko be interrupted. All that acknowledging and bowing can appear courteous in the beginning, but after a while, it'll feel like you are simply spending time on something else instead of keiko.

Besides, there is also the possibility that the other person didn't think the strike was good and wanted to keep going, but your pausing kinda didn't allow that.

However, not having been there, it's simply really hard to say. Despite that, I simply don't see why someone would get so worked up about it.

Personally, I only acknowledge stuff now when the strike is so definitive that I'm flat-footed and can't keep going anyway (i.e. it ended the conversation). If my strike or the opponent's strike isn't so definitive that we "have" to stop and reset, we don't.

Oh yeah, don't think and debrief during keiko...do that AFTER keiko.

FWIW.

[Andoru]

Thanks David for the insightful comments. I'll keep them in mind. :)

[taiwnezboi]

I don't think he should've said it like that.. he should have known that you were trying to be polite and give him respect for a hit that you thought was good.. he could've just politely said to keep going =\

[Shazzanzzz]

These kind of stuff, more often than not, it's just misunderstanding. I've had incidences where someone thought i was a jerk, or i thought someone else was. But, almost everytime, if i talk to him/her after the practice, we actually become friends.
If he thinks you did something wrong, ask him what you did wrong after class and say sorry, say you'll do better next time, etc. If he's a total jerk about it, well, i guee, just kick his ass in kendo next time. THa'ts what i would do.

[Masahiro]

No you didn't do anythingn "wrong". I almost always bow to my opponent during ji-keiko or ippon shobu when a yuko datotsu occurs. I did it when I was doing keiko with a 7th dan, he didn't seem to mind. I do it with my sensei(s), and I have not yet encountered a problem or instructed other wise. If you do happen to visit that particular dojo again please speak with this "dan" holder also his sensei and discuss the type of "ji-keiko" the club is used to, but do let him know you didn't do anything wrong.

[kendokamax]

I think a host should never say such a thing to someone coming to their place for the first time. Its very unpolite.

[louisvandalen]

Next time give him a tsuki in the back of the head, right after the match ends. Instant respect assured.

Regards,

Louis

p.s. an upward kote between the legs has the same effect, breath in, breath out. Combine the 2 and he will call you masta !

[aru-ma]

Just out of interest, which dojo did you go to?

[Andoru]

Just out of interest, which dojo did you go to?
Can't say - too politically sensitive. :(

[Rawoo]

why not?
are u afraid? so what!
It is most unfortunate for a dojo to have such a player.
u should undoubtably approach such a person aggressively.
Well if he owns the dojo then u should leave and regret that u even went there.

[Marine_Boy]

why not?
are u afraid? so what!
It is most unfortunate for a dojo to have such a player.
u should undoubtably approach such a person aggressively.
Well if he owns the dojo then u should leave and regret that u even went there.


I must berate you for your post.

Androu is doing the right thing for not naming the dojo in question (no matter how much gossip we all want to find out), this is because one should not talk badly about another dojo on an internet forum without having first spoken with their dojocho or sensei. Even then, I still don't think it is proper to post their dojo name on the internet.

Secondly, your comment "so what!", which I guess is your advice for Androu's course of action. That I believe is wrong also. You cannot just go around and do what you want with no regards to the actions that you've taken.

Finally, one should never approach another person aggresively. What is the point of kendo and what is it trying to teach you. Even if you are not into all that spiritual bs, becomming mad and aggresive creats a suki in your stance and composture, thus allowing your opponent to utilise that against you.

You don't have to take any of the advice I've written, but that's my take on things.

[louisvandalen]

Definatly,

you shouldn't be agressive. It tempts to screw up your tsuki and its pretty hard sticking it in the back of the men.

regards,

Louis

[Marine_Boy]

Just to make myself clear.

Suki is japanese for opening. It is different to Tsuki. :wink:

[Rawoo]

Aggressive doesnt equal to mad.
Do not be humble to a bully.

"You cannot just go around and do what you want with no regards to the actions that you've taken."
Who said anything about that? maybe u r one of this kind of person urself so u dont know how bad it is. Well let me tell u it's bad and it's not to be tolerated.

[Marine_Boy]

Aggressive doesnt equal to mad.
Do not be humble to a bully.

"You cannot just go around and do what you want with no regards to the actions that you've taken."
Who said anything about that? maybe u r one of this kind of person urself so u dont know how bad it is. Well let me tell u it's bad and it's not to be tolerated.


Aggressive may not turn into maddness, but it is certainly not the way to go. I admit that I myself am not a saint all the time, nor am I saying to allow bullies to have their way. Be the better person if you can and try not to go down to the bully's level.

In fact, I don't think Androu is being bullied here. Maybe just a few crossed wires with the dan grade in question.

As to the second sentence of your post. You said exactly that. I took the meaning of what you said as to just "go ahead" and name the dojo, or are you scared?

Now if I have the wrong end of the stick, please correct me and clarify.

Somehow I think you still have some growing up to do, but we can't all be liberal minded.

[louisvandalen]

Just to make myself clear.

Suki is japanese for opening. It is different to Tsuki. :wink:
Excuse my japanese but the moral:

give him a tsuki in tha men suki. Then drive off fast on your suzuki (if he's big).

Regards,

Louis

www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)

[Taek]

Not taking any side here but I also think Andoru did right thing for not naming the dojo. At the end, it was a person who Andoru had trouble with not the dojo. Well, we can't expect to be loved by everyone and not everyone wants to be how we want to be. It might be the best way to think that the dan holder unfrotunately have developed big yet ugly pride for his dan during his Kendo training and didn't learn how to control himself. You just have to feel sorry for him not for yourself Andoru. It only has been a couple of months that I've been training with Andoru but I do know that you didn't deserve that kind of treatment. Don't ever feel that you did anything wrong because that's not how I learnt from my sensei and sempai from a few different dojos I've been so far. In fact, our sensei keeps on advising us to acknowledge when we get properly executed cut from opponant. My sensei and sempai in my dojo do themselves do acknowledge even when I happen to make one of those accident cut to them. :silly:

[Andoru]

You guys are right - it's only 1 person and not the entire dojo.

Anyway - I'm moving on. A lot of kendo to learn yet! :)

[not-I]

I think Pan's post said everything that needed to be said. But then...there were some other posts too.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Seniors sometimes dish out harsh words, which you may eventually find helpful. Misunderstandings can occur too. You may not have deserved it, but nobody else deserves to be condemned by others who weren't there.
Just take note, drop it, and move on.

...oops, posted right after you did. looks like you're moving on already. keep on trucking, mate! :)

[Andoru]

Actually, I should have said that I've moved on.

Was back at training tonight in the bitter cold. :D

[Nishi]

Glad to hear you've moved on Andoru.

Some people are a pain in the ass, and that is an unfortunate reality in kendo, but it makes me want to train harder, use the experience.

[KATSUJIN]

well.... just to let u guys know... i do wat andoru did during the keiko sometimes... one of my senseis actually told me its not a good habit... it breaks my concentration... so sometimes, he 'kindly' reminds me not to do it... i dont think you has to worry so much abt, eh andoru? this kind of things happens at times. The only thing we can do is to remind ourselves not to do it, and move on..... :)

[Hai_hai]

[i]... During jigeiko, I went up against a dan player. It was our very first jigeiko. He scored a good men on me, I acknowledged it, and there was a mini-break of about 3 secs (I was pondering on his men cut). He sonkyo immediately after that and said "if you want to take a break then get out of here" or words to that effect. The tone wasn't friendly at all. I was in shock. Anyway I sonkyo and bow properly and sat down afterwards in seiza completely stunned. Then he came over to me and said the same thing again, but this time there were dojo members around who heard him as well. I nodded my head but I didn't say anything...
1. Your mini-break of 3 seconds may have been longer without you knowing it, i.e. it may have appeared that you weren't going to go back into a ready kamae for too long. This is more on the subjective side of things.
2. You sitting down during jigeiko is not good. Even though you bowed out, you should stand in line and wait for another partner for more jigeiko, not sit.

[KhawMengLee]

Hmmnn...I dunno...I am in the habit of acknowledging a good hit as well. It seems he was a bit of a prick, I mean you are a guest and maybe didn't know the dojo's ettiquette, so he should have been more polite.

I have the habit of waiting in keiko to counter and when I started here in HK one of the Senseis pointed this out after training. He was very polite about it tho' He basically asked how old I was, then said"...ah, you are young. You fight old man kendo, should fight young man kendo...nevermind, I give you more kakarigeiko and uchikomigeiko...get you fit...hahahahaha" :eek:

[Kaoru]

Originally Posted by Rawoo
Aggressive doesnt equal to mad.
Do not be humble to a bully.



Aggressive may not turn into maddness, but it is certainly not the way to go. I admit that I myself am not a saint all the time, nor am I saying to allow bullies to have their way. Be the better person if you can and try not to go down to the bully's level.

In fact, I don't think Androu is being bullied here. Maybe just a few crossed wires with the dan grade in question.

As to the second sentence of your post. You said exactly that. I took the meaning of what you said as to just "go ahead" and name the dojo, or are you scared?

Now if I have the wrong end of the stick, please correct me and clarify.

Somehow I think you still have some growing up to do, but we can't all be liberal minded.

Hi minna-san,

I agree with what Marine Boy said about not lowering oneself to a bully's level.

I also agree that he wasn't being bullied, but at the same time, what Taek-san said, makes sense. It's not bullying, but just possibly ego or, maybe he has trouble communicating in the proper way, and just needs work on how to make a comment nicely. I thought the comment said to Andoru-san was not the right way to ask him not to do something. It was not very polite. I think Andoru-san handled the comment really well.

Also, he did the right thing in not naming the dojo, since like Taek-san said, it is the person, not the dojo, the problem was with. Oh sheesh... I'm stuck in Italics now... Rats. I can't get it unstuck! Sorry guys... Anyway what I was going to say was, naming the dojo wouldn't solve the problem. Talking to the person in question might. I say might, because a person can't know how the Dan grade will respond. I think what I would have done, is let it go, and just wait until the next visit to the dojo, and see if he speaks like that again. And, if he does it then again, maybe then ask him why nicely. So, you can try that, Andoru-san.

Me, I'll usually put up with a lot before I will say something, because I want to be sure the person is consistant before I comment on the behavior. That's important. And, I think it is best to give a person a chance before one judges them.

Well, hehehe, looks like you said you moved on anyhow, Andoru-san. :)

Oh, (Hey... the Italics turned themselves off! ...Swear I touched nothing hehehe! Yay!! :D ) I just wanted to comment on the last line of the first quote above about not being humble to a bully(Even though the guy IMHO, was not a bully.).

Why not be humble to a bully? I think that if one is, then the bully in question has nothing to work with, therefore, his bullying is diminished. I'm not perfect myself by far, but I do know that I never want to hurt a person back just because they hurt me. There is no point, and nothing is gained by it. Now, I don't mean the kind of humble where one acts scared and kow tows to them. I mean the kind where one is always nice to the bully. It drives bullies crazy that they can't get to you then, and make you turn on them. Some of the time, you can turn that bully into a friend or at least friendly toward you this way. And other times, they will get bored and then leave you alone. Though, sometimes, the person does not back off, and then this is when you either politely confront the person, or talk to your sensei and ask for advice as to what do about it, depending on how you feel about dealing with the problem. Well, hehehe, I guess I've said enough.

Kaoru

[Kent Enfield]

While immediately ending practice might have been a bit much, I definitely agree with your partner's sentiment. A quick bow or "Maitta," after an especially good strike, such as David described, is one thing, but just standing around while you "ponder" something is a waste of the other person's time as well as your own. That's for after class. Personally, I probably would have taken the opportunity to use you as an uchikomidai--even if you're not going to practice, I'm still going to.

I run practice at a satellite club to my home club. As it is small and new, it is filled with beginners. One person sitting down during jigeiko is often infectious, and soon I'll see several people not practicing. Because of that, I've learned to nip it in the bud when that first person sits down. With a new person or guest, I'd have handled it slightly differently ("Go practice with him now.").

So my conclusion is, yes, you screwed up some, and the other person mishandled it.

[KhawMengLee]

I admit that I myself am not a saint all the time, nor am I saying to allow bullies to have their way.

Hmmnnn, would that be a particularly nasty dan fellow we know from our dojo, eh? :wink: Dressed in black...hehehehe

Amazingly, enough he keeps apologizing to me when he misses and caps me on the unprotected areas :confused2 usually with most ppl he just keeps going...

[misterkurukuru]

If some lower rank foolio paused to think after I cracked them a good one I would tsuki their @ss out the dojo. I would also say, “KI WO NUKU NA BAKAYAROOOO!!!” A higher ranking person does not need to be acknowledged after they do a clean hit. What you need to do is slowly seme and watch what the Dan person is doing. Never put your guard down!!!!! Don’t they teach you that in the first day of practice?!?! HE should have punked you physically instead of punking you verbally. I think that dude is A PUSSY! If he was as bad as he thought he was, he should have done tsuki and knocked you on your ass! IF you get another crack at that dan dude, do bunny men on him next time….that will knock him down a few notches :wink:

[subtrax]

GO BACK! You have to go back. You now have no choice. If you don't go back and spar him, he has made his point. I believe this to be one of those personal tests that one must overcome in kendo. He may be hard up but he also may have some great instruction for you. GO BACK! Prove yourself!!!!!!! Good luck and let us all know what happens.

[taganahan]

still it was mean. i mean the higher ranks should understand that people who are less superior than them needs time to understand what they are doing and also ponder at it for a just a little while to make a better one.

[Andoru]

Thank you all for your comments. I shall incorporate some of them into my keiko.

[DCPan]

Hi Andoru,

At the risk of beating this to death :rolleyes:

The amount of acknowledgement for a good strike will vary depending on whether this is:

Gokaku-geiko
Ji-geiko
Shiai-geiko
Kakari-geiko

I know you said it was jigeiko, but I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page! :smoker:

[Will]

I feeling i have some insight on what the dan player must have been thinking. So this guest comes to his dojo and plays with him, the guys prolly slightly reluctant because he knows his own training is gonna be slowed down because of it but acquiesced because its his duty to train with everyone. So he comes up from sonkyo, and what does the guest prolly do? just sit there. I know when I play against kyu people and if they expect me to do the first move, they'll get destroyed because they can't keep up. When you go against someone higher ranking than you, especially if you're a beginner, you should try to initatiate the attacks. Did you initiatiate the attacks or were you trying to do oji waza? If i'm in this situation, i get pretty angry because the person thinks he has the speed and skill to keep up with me when he doesnt, so it's taking away from his training. Sure, I could go destroy him and do kakarikeiko, but as the sempai (guest or not) I'm suppose to help his kendo grow. So yeah, I can see why the guy would say such things, though it doesn't give him the right to.

but then i'm a hypocrit cause i do the same thing when i play against higher ranking people.

[Andoru]

Jeebus Will - read my post again......

[Will]

and...? you just said you'll change. I'm not attacking your or anything, I'm just explaining how the guy might have been thinking.

[Andoru]

Sigh we're on a different wavelength here. But nevermind...

[kendokamax]

dude he is not your senpai or whatever if you are not from the same place as him.

when you are a guest you should be treated differently. Its a new environment and it is difficult to addapt to. Of course, with time, if you come often to an other dojo and continue doing things your own way , that's no good either.

It's so arrogant to tell someone, you dont even really know, that they are wasting your time and are puting the level of keiko down. If it is so, then like kurukuru said that person should kick your ass by puting their own level up, no blablablabla. If they can't that means their own kendo is still limited since they cannot even win easely against someone who is "apperently" inferioir to them. Its a proof of weakness by the person with more experience.

We have a dummy in our club now.

When I train with a dummy that doesnt even do anything and is easy to hit , and still I easely find flaws in my hits. If I run away from that reality how can I really improve my kendo? However, the dummy is not really challenging. A beginner is far more difficult to hit, so if I put the effort to get him good, it should be a win-win situation.

[Marine_Boy]

Kaoru, you crack me up with your italics! :smiley:

[Marine_Boy]

Hmmnnn, would that be a particularly nasty dan fellow we know from our dojo, eh? :wink: Dressed in black...hehehehe

Amazingly, enough he keeps apologizing to me when he misses and caps me on the unprotected areas :confused2 usually with most ppl he just keeps going...

Hey, I actually like fencing with this person in question!

No seriously, if we're both talking about the same person, during jikeiko with ___ I always try not to let ___ get the better of me. ___ really brings my fighting spirit out.

But I shall stop there.

[KhawMengLee]

Hey, I actually like fencing with this person in question!

No seriously, if we're both talking about the same person, during jikeiko with ___ I always try not to let ___ get the better of me. ___ really brings my fighting spirit out.

But I shall stop there.

So do I! Hehehe, I like tsuking him cuz it makes him angrier.

[Marine_Boy]

So do I! Hehehe, I like tsuking him cuz it makes him angrier.

You know what though, the last few times I fenced with him, I evaded his tsuki by stepping off the line slightly and his shinai slid past my neck, and I think he got a smidge annoyed at that. So he then decided to pound my head!

You really know how to kick a wasp's nest!

[KhawMengLee]

You know what though, the last few times I fenced with him, I evaded his tsuki by stepping off the line slightly and his shinai slid past my neck, and I think he got a smidge annoyed at that. So he then decided to pound my head!

You really know how to kick a wasp's nest!

Hehehe...I dunno, I knocked him over in Tai-atari once after he missed a tsuki attempt and after that he's been more civil. Tho' I remember some other sempais telling me how he got his arse handed to him by a certain rokudan for being a prick at another London dojo...he got hammered and nailed to the ground 4 times and then was asked not to come back.

[Marine_Boy]

Hehehe...I dunno, I knocked him over in Tai-atari once after he missed a tsuki attempt and after that he's been more civil. Tho' I remember some other sempais telling me how he got his arse handed to him by a certain rokudan for being a prick at another London dojo...he got hammered and nailed to the ground 4 times and then was asked not to come back.

Ooo, that's gossip. But it'll stay right here in this forum!

[mingshi]

Just to add a few points... since I travel to 4 other dojo in town:-

If you are visiting another dojo, you are only allowed to say the following:-
"HAI!"
and follow their instruction.

If you wonder why "I wasn't taught that way in my dojo", GO HOME. What's the point going to another dojo if you expect everyne treat you the same way?

...and if you read the article Mr S Honda wrote at the BKA site about kohai fighting against sempai... You shouldn't be too bothered with any cuts from your sempai. He/she is a senior who can cut you good anyway... Just try your best and finish your cut!!

[enkorat]

I do remember when I was training at my first dojo, as a beginner I was never permitted to pause for any reason when I was practicing with someone my senior. I don't think I was ever taught to pause or acknowledge a hit during practice.

If I did pause I was usually yelled at for "thinking" about it too much, and then got thwacked resoundly. As I understand it, as a beginner my goal was to be able to attack relentlessly without reservation. I think it was also so that I would build up my stamina.

Perhaps it could also be that for someone of far lower rank to acknowledge a hit to a senior is too polite. I know that this sounds strange but sometimes being too polite in the wrong context is more insulting than the other situation.

It is also possible that due to the bogu and the men making some body language hard to read, that the other person misinterpreted your intention.

It may also be that the other dojo has a different attitude toward acknowledging a hit during gi-geiko, and is different from your home dojo. Although this experience was awkward and uncomfortable, finding out what other dojos do and what their teaching philosophies is one of point behind musha shugyo. So in the end I think this was a good learning experience, and that it doesn't deter from your keiko.

[Aussiboi808]

I must berate you for your post.

Androu is doing the right thing for not naming the dojo in question (no matter how much gossip we all want to find out), this is because one should not talk badly about another dojo on an internet forum without having first spoken with their dojocho or sensei. Even then, I still don't think it is proper to post their dojo name on the internet.

Secondly, your comment "so what!", which I guess is your advice for Androu's course of action. That I believe is wrong also. You cannot just go around and do what you want with no regards to the actions that you've taken.

Finally, one should never approach another person aggresively. What is the point of kendo and what is it trying to teach you. Even if you are not into all that spiritual bs, becomming mad and aggresive creats a suki in your stance and composture, thus allowing your opponent to utilise that against you.

You don't have to take any of the advice I've written, but that's my take on things.I also Must agree with marine boy about the gosip it would not be in any of our best interest to be speakin badly about our dojo's, also there is no need to not wanna go back to the dojo it might just have been a hazeing kinda thing... Peace All

[Charlie]

Andoru, here's my take.

That guy was a DICK. Excuse my frank language.

He should have just said, at worst, "Hey, keep going, dammit," instead of bowing out in sonkyo. That was rude and arrogant, a kind of a kendo that I, thankfully, see only rarely these days. This person knows nothing of rei, of the spirit that animates rei, knows nothing of the international kendo federation's principles governing brotherhood and behavior, or, if he does know, does not care, which demeans him and everyone around him. Divas like this guy deserve to be pounded.

That said, you do have to go back and whomp on him as best you can. Just out of curiosity, was this person Japanese or a Westerner? If he's a westerner that makes his behavior even worse.

His most appropriate action should have been, if he felt you were pausing or the dojo atmosphere didn't condone pausing (something I find hard to believe), to attack you. I disagree with some of you here that are saying that when you go with a junior they should make the first move. I mean, unless the person is such a junior that they should take the first couple of hits on you, kakari-geiko-style. Is there really that big a gap between you and your opponent? Personally, as a san-dan I only do this with utter noobs. With kyus and shodans I always go balls-out (cutting my speed down to their level if necessary, and then slowly raising it up). If I feel a junior is hesitating too much, I attack him and maybe say something encouraging.

That guy's behavior exemplifies the worst kind of kendo divaism. In an art in which there is clearly always someone better than you, I can't believe such kind of people still exist. The moment you think you're the shnizzle, kendo should come along and humble your ass right away.

Go back, Andoru. Do your best against him. You don't owe it to him but to the art.

[Hai_hai]

...That said, you do have to go back and whomp on him as best you can...
This is not a peaceful resolution in the kendo spirit of brotherhood, but it sounds like a hoot-nanny of an idea.

[Charlie]

Well, what I meant is, go back and keiko with him again, and do your best against him in jigeiko.

I can tell you, if that happened to me, I would continue practicing, but it would throw me off for the rest of the night. Another question: what is this person's rank?

[Hai_hai]

Well, what I meant is, go back and keiko with him again, and do your best against him in jigeiko.

I can tell you, if that happened to me, I would continue practicing, but it would throw me off for the rest of the night. Another question: what is this person's rank?
Basically, you want to know the person's dojo, name, rank, nationality, age, race, and kendo background and hunt the dude down.

A good taiko drumming in the background with tiki torches lighting a dimly-lit dojo would suit that practice.

[Charlie]

LOL. No, just his nationality/ethnicity and rank. I'm merely curious.

[Hai_hai]

Andoru,
You must go back! Fight! If not for yourself, for the Kendo-World Forum community who believes in tradition... honor... respect... humility... the sword.

GAMBATTE!




P.S. May the Schwartz be with you.

[misterkurukuru]

I see you have the Schwartz... and your Schwartz is as big as mine

[taganahan]

schwartz?! you must be talking about the terminator...lol

[Curtis]

This is not a bitch-n-moan thread. I just need some questions answered.

I visited another dojo last night. Training was good, I really enjoyed it.

During jigeiko, I went up against a dan player. It was our very first jigeiko. He scored a good men on me, I acknowledged it, and there was a mini-break of about 3 secs (I was pondering on his men cut). He sonkyo immediately after that and said "if you want to take a break then get out of here" or words to that effect. The tone wasn't friendly at all. I was in shock. Anyway I sonkyo and bow properly and sat down afterwards in seiza completely stunned. Then he came over to me and said the same thing again, but this time there were dojo members around who heard him as well. I nodded my head but I didn't say anything.

My spirit died there and then and I have lost any will to do jigeiko that night. :(

Right now I still don't understand what I did wrong. It's the first time someone has taken offense. I'm trying to develop good kendo spirit and to do good kendo, so I need to understand. Can you guys enlighten me?

Well I will make a couple comments here.

First the comment about " He scored a good men on me". As you have stated this was a jigeiko. This means there should not be any scoring of points. Also acknowledging the "point" is a bit of a mistake. He was senior to you and really does not need you to acknowledge it whether it was in fact good or not. That is what tournaments and shimpan are for. Do not judge your points or the other person's during a jigeiko. Particularly if your are junior you are saying to them that you are qualified to judge their point.

With that said sometimes you see very senior/sensei people having a jigeiko that is part shiai. One will make a good point and you will hear them say "O-men wa?". This is a mutual understanding at their level.

The dead spirit is understandable when something like this happens and you do not understand why. You just have to recover and move on.

Will you be able to mend fences with the guy? Depends on the two of you and each other's attitude. Whether it is your dojo or not the person is senior to you. I think he could have handled it better and had he been in my dojo he certainly would have heard about it. I would have told not to do it and why. After that if you did it again I would then go after you somewhat in the vain that kurukuru spoke of.

Hope this helps and I hope to get down your way some day.

[Andoru]

Thanks everyone for your comments. It's very inspiring to have received encouragement from none other than Hai-hai! :D

Anyway, I've accepted it and have moved on. Of course I will jigeiko with that person next time but I've learnt not to repeat the same mistake again.

[Old Warrior]

"First the comment about " He scored a good men on me". As you have stated this was a jigeiko. This means there should not be any scoring of points. Also acknowledging the "point" is a bit of a mistake. He was senior to you and really does not need you to acknowledge it whether it was in fact good or not. That is what tournaments and shimpan are for. Do not judge your points or the other person's during a jigeiko. Particularly if your are junior you are saying to them that you are qualified to judge their point."

This approach is one of the attitudes I see in kendo, that I will never understand or accept (inwardly). What possible difference does it make if someone acknowledges a hit? When we do practice sparring, we often try and reset our position after a clear, unchallenged strike. And, if we don't - so we don't. Maintaining dominance over someone is important in bouting, but it has no place in class, unless it is a matter of bad manners or lack of discipline.

I have been pounded by guys who have always been polite to me and who would gladly acknowledge if I, actually, scored a point. On Thursday, I was sparring with a second dan (that's 3 BIG ranks above me) and he actually called out my points (i.e. "good muri, good son mok etc.) I'm not suggesting I got too many, but he was proud to announce them. After all, he is part of my learning process as he also points out my mistakes.

[Wark 1978]

i'd been going to one club for several months and then was invited to go to another. i was a bit uneasy at first because i wasn't sure of the ettiquette at the new dojo (now i go to 3 and all of their ettiquettes are different).

after i had practiced with a 6th dan at the new dojo, he went up to the 5th dan sensei who invited me and who speaks english. the 5th dan then said to me that the 6th dan said that whenever i receive a hit i should say thank you. being only an ikkyu i am saying thank you a lot.

i took this to mean that by being hit my partner is exposing a weakness that i have and is in effect showing it to me. therefore i should be grateful that he has done and say thank you for it. on the rare occassions when i manage to make a good strike on a sensei at that dojo, many of them do say "arigato" or "ii men" or "ii kote" and once or twice "beautiful men michael". it's nice for me to hear that because it means i have done something right.

i can't remember who mentioned it in this thread but someone also said something about as an ikkyu or below you are expected to go all out on who ever you train with. i thought this at first and it is what i used to do.

then i went up against a 5th dan and started to do this. he stopped me and said i was going too quick and wasn't thinking about what i was doing and was just going through the motions. this made my kamae bad as well as several other points. now when i practice with him he wants me to take my time and look for an opening. i thought that i wasn't ready for this type of kendo but you don't argue with your sensei. this advice helped me a lot and on sunday i entered my first tournament at the local kendo festival and won 2 out of 4 through being patient.

i'm sure i have made mistakes at every dojo i have been to but i have never been spoken to like andoru. just a quiet word is all that is needed.

[2 TEK]

Here here:devious:

[DCPan]

after i had practiced with a 6th dan at the new dojo, he went up to the 5th dan sensei who invited me and who speaks english. the 5th dan then said to me that the 6th dan said that whenever i receive a hit i should say thank you. being only an ikkyu i am saying thank you a lot.


Hmm...was it shiai-geiko or ji-geiko?

It also really depends on what is happening at the moment.

For example, if I was trying to practice in jigeiko while the other person goes kakari-geiko on me, I'd probably ask them to stop and recognize that we are trying to have a conversation rather than a yelling match. If I'm not tired, I'll amuse them and see who can yell better :wink:

Some sensei don't like it when they felt like they've made a valid strike and they are "enjoying the echoes of their zanshin" while their partner keeps striking away. While I can symapthize with that, now I simply think that if the other guy can hit me while I'm trying to show zanshin, I probably don't have enough zanshin.

Perhaps as best put by Mister Kurukuru, when you stand in chudan with someone who is senior to you, you can sense "unwritten rules" being communicated in the conversation.

When you sense these rules, you have a choice. You can respect it and play those rules to learn how they work. You can also use those rules against them (i.e. mutually acknowledge backing up from tsuba-zeriai instead of hiki-waza, but hit them on a lapse when they've relaxed).

If you haven't sensed the rules being implied yet, more keiko! :rolleyes:

[tapioka]

wow...reading 5 pages of this thread made me feel like I just read an entire kendo etiquette textbook. (o_o)

I'm really glad Andoru-san has moved on. power to ya! but just to add on to the topic, I'd say I agree with what most everyone has said thus far. reading what some of the senior members have said about understanding how that "mean sempai" must have felt, I imagine I can sort of understand what he was thinking too.

at the same time, I agree that I don't think he should have gone as far as thumping down into sonkyo and telling the visitor to get his butt out of there. had I been in his shoes, I'd think my first course of action would be to encourage him. doing kiai and showing the lower-ranked kenshi what to do could probably teach him/her an equally important lesson in comparison to kicking them out and making them learn the hard way.

I'm going to have to be very careful when I visit other dojos now...

[Kenshin Axel]

What dojo did you goto??

Do what Hai Hai said!!

Fight back! You don't have to take $hit from some punk-a$$ Dan.

If somebody is that rude they dont deserve to be a Dan holder.

Didnt the sensei do anything? If the sensei heard he shouldve done something.

[kendokamax]

Didnt the sensei do anything? If the sensei heard he shouldve done something.


the sensei is not a police..

[Kenshin Axel]

Who cares if he's not the police!!
It's his job to make sure that everybody is polite and respectful, regardless of what rank they are!!
He definitley shouldnt have spoken like that to a guest!!

[Marine_Boy]

Just something to add to this subject about visiting another dojo.

I was told at the weekend that at your own dojo, you practice kendo. But when you go somewhere else, it's a battle. This is because you are representing your dojo and sensei; don't want to make either of them look bad now!

[ctan]

Hi, Andoru! I just want to offer you some words of encouragement. But first, this whole situation is puzzling to me. This "dan holder", unless he's the sensei, requires a lesson in manners in his own dojo. I've *never* heard of a situation where *anyone* except the sensei has the authority to tell another student to "go to another dojo" (kick them out). It's not *his* dojo; he has no place doing that. So, at least from me, I think you are unequivocally in the right and he in the wrong.

Also, I think we've got to keep perspective on things. For 99.99% of us, kendo isn't something we do for a living. It's a hobby. We do it for fun. This means that regardless of rank, unless you are really doing something wrong (and repeatedly so after being informed of it), everyone should be trying to make everyone else's experience enjoyable. You shouldn't have to tolerate *anyone* putting you down in such a rude manner. So, don't feel apologetic, go to practise, and really, think of this guy as exactly what he is: someone sorely lacking in social skills and who needs a lesson about real-life.
I sincerely hope your experiences at this dojo improve in the near future.

[lwegerich]

Right now I still don't understand what I did wrong. (...) Can you guys enlighten me?

Tell you what: You did nothing wrong, because you're not (yet) an expert and you were there the first time. Combining these things into one tells me that the guys of the dojo should take care of you and support you.

Why this jerk didn't that? He just wanted to make clear who's the boss, and sorry to say, he succeed in that. Because you are thinking of this over and over again, you even posted it in this forum while he gives a damn about you and your doubts.

So, forget about it. Consider this guy a dumbass but still show him respect and everything is just fine.

I wouldn't talk to him about his behaviour. Useless. Don't encourage him by this. Just ignore him. It will also helps you to develop the mental strength you'll need practising Kendo. ;)

Lars

[Old Warrior]

"I wouldn't talk to him about his behaviour. Useless. Don't encourage him by this. Just ignore him. It will also helps you to develop the mental strength you'll need practising Kendo."

You got it Lars. There are jerks in every walk of life and they should be paid no mind. Showing up, doing your best and being polite/respectful is all that is required. If someone thinks they are owed something else - its their problem.

[Curtis]

Another factor is that perhaps the guy is just frustrated with his kendo. I am guessing that he is around the 2 dan level give or take. We all have times of frustration with our progress. This does not mean the behaviour should be condoned. It could just be a trigger for it.

He could also be suffering from the I think I am better than I really am syndrome. A cure for this is a trip to Japan and getting the snot beat out of you or someone of high skill comes to town. It works for me.

[Disciple.k]

After reading this old thread , I think I know who Andoru is talking about . Can't belive he still do it.

[Andoru]

After reading this old thread , I think I know who Andoru is talking about . Can't belive he still do it.
Let's just drop it.

Introduce yourself to me next time we meet. :)

[kenshi_kr]

Hi everyone,

I don't quite understand some attitude's towards a junior not being able to acknowledge a good cut when. I mean, you woulnd't do it in a practice where the sensei/higher rank is just kind of 'leading' the jigeiko via mixture of kakari, uchikomi e.t.c but if the two of you are having a serious bout of practice then i think it should be reasonable enough that you acknolwedge a cut when you feel you were completely beaten. And also some people about 'a pause' slowing the training down or wasting time. How much is 5 secs of reflection? Not much i think. Anyway just my thoughts.

[Wes Nazo]

wow...reading 5 pages of this thread made me feel like I just read an entire kendo etiquette textbook. (o_o)

Wow...what a bunch of kendo blowhards.

Of course, maybe I'm "misunderstanding."

[Kaoru]

Wow...what a bunch of kendo blowhards.

Of course, maybe I'm "misunderstanding."

Hi Wes-san,

That wasn't nice to say. You did misunderstand. Do you Kendo? Etiquette is a very important part of Kendo. To be rude to another is unthinkable in the dojo or otherwise.

Kaoru

[Kendoka]

This is not a bitch-n-moan thread. I just need some questions answered.

I visited another dojo last night. Training was good, I really enjoyed it.

During jigeiko, I went up against a dan player. It was our very first jigeiko. He scored a good men on me, I acknowledged it, and there was a mini-break of about 3 secs (I was pondering on his men cut). He sonkyo immediately after that and said "if you want to take a break then get out of here" or words to that effect. The tone wasn't friendly at all. I was in shock. Anyway I sonkyo and bow properly and sat down afterwards in seiza completely stunned. Then he came over to me and said the same thing again, but this time there were dojo members around who heard him as well. I nodded my head but I didn't say anything.

My spirit died there and then and I have lost any will to do jigeiko that night. :(

Right now I still don't understand what I did wrong. It's the first time someone has taken offense. I'm trying to develop good kendo spirit and to do good kendo, so I need to understand. Can you guys enlighten me?

Hi Andoru, I just caught this thread.

I got the same message from my sensei, but he experessed it more like an adult, in words and we continued in fuull spirit.

In jigeko, really IMHO, just keep on going and stay engaged with and focussed on your opponent. Whether you or he gets a datotsu, whether you win or lose is irrelevant, just keep going, set up the next opportunity, then the next, then the n..... etc.

After keiko is the time to acknowledge nice cuts or discuss aspects of your training experience

[Wes Nazo]

Maybe what I said wasn't really nice, but that's what I felt what needed to be said. I think when people ask for advice, they want advice. Not some "I'm more kendo then thou" lecture. It just comes off as pretentious. But this is my opinion.

[Kaoru]

Maybe what I said wasn't really nice, but that's what I felt what needed to be said. I think when people ask for advice, they want advice. Not some "I'm more kendo then thou" lecture. It just comes off as pretentious. But this is my opinion.

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for explaining. I was all, wha?? Well, you have a point. But, it doesn't hurt for someone to give a deeper meaning. :)

Kaoru

[Wes Nazo]

Maybe I should be content that I'm getting advice at all. But then again, I find giving unsolicited advice with excessive information as beyond helping and being somewhat boastful.

[Seiza_Seizure]

GO BACK! You have to go back. You now have no choice. If you don't go back and spar him, he has made his point. I believe this to be one of those personal tests that one must overcome in kendo. He may be hard up but he also may have some great instruction for you. GO BACK! Prove yourself!!!!!!! Good luck and let us all know what happens.

I am with you on that one subtrax

[Andoru]

Thanks for the input guys but there is no point discussing this or resurrecting this thread anymore.

[streetcleaner]

one time at taikai jikeiko i stop and sonkyo while others continue - i jikeiko with someone higher grade than me, but his kendo was poor and he hit me very strong (clubbing) and after each hit he did taiatari and continuesly push me and tryes to knock me off my feet to the floor. but he cant do this, cant hit correct point and become angry. this becomes boring, this is not kendo, and i stop jikeko, bow to him, sonkyo and leave the court.