jodan position

[taganahan]

i've seen some people do jodan positions in our dojo when doing a shiai.

my question is what are the advantages and disadvantages of this position?

as far as i can see, when you do jodan it makes you open to dou cuts. and it seems that it takes more time to cut when you're in this postion. please elighten me in this for i'm still exploring different positions, which will best suit me.

[mystic_kendoka]

it is quicker in attacking, if it wasnt, why do you think in nito, the daito is raised above the head in katate jodan? if it was slower surely the daito would be in chudan as well..

if someone goes for your doh, u can hit men, or hit their shinai out of the way..

you shouldnt use this or any other kamae other than chudan, until you know everything there is to know about chudan, 'mastered' it, and your teacher offered to teach you proper jodan..

[Neil Gendzwill]

Doh isn't really that open, it just looks that way. The most common target is the left kote, which is legal because it is held above the mune. Gyaku-doh is also available and surprisingly men is a good bet. Tsuki is often tried but it's a little risky - it's easy for the jodan player to trap or knock down the incoming tsuki using his tsuka and then hit a two-handed men.

Jodan is a very aggressive posture, suited to people who are able to generate a lot of pressure on their opponents. Tall people can do well with jodan but it's not mandatory. Physical strength and endurance is required. The advantage is that the shinai comes down very quickly, and if it connects it's highly likely to be a point because it is so clear. Also the single-handed strike from jodan has more range than the normal two-handed attack from chudan. The position is intimidating, especially if you haven't played against it much. However it is also limited as you don't have the ability to do anything about the opponent's shinai other than your seme (pressure), and after you've attacked you are quite vulnerable until you can get back into kamae.

Most sensei recommend you have a reasonable grasp of chudan before trying jodan, around 3 dan is a common recommendation. It's also advisable to have an instructor who knows jodan, most are chudan people who can't offer too much help with jodan. People who are serious about jodan normally practice it all the time including suburi, kirikaeshi etc.

[taganahan]

so height is needed to have more advantage? i'm only 5'5" and that's like short(in my opinion). aside from chudan and jodan what other positions are there? i've read about gedan in Go Rin no Sho but i haven't really seen that one yet, i think.

[Nishi]

so height is needed to have more advantage? i'm only 5'5" and that's like short(in my opinion)*snippy snip*

Actually I think Toda Sensei is 5'5" (mabye even shorter). I think for all the pretentious "advantages' we talk about, a person who is well trained will always have the advantage. Point is, if you wanna do jodan, youre effort will determine your advantage...go for it.

[Shazzanzzz]

so height is needed to have more advantage? i'm only 5'5" and that's like short(in my opinion). aside from chudan and jodan what other positions are there? i've read about gedan in Go Rin no Sho but i haven't really seen that one yet, i think.

People go to gedan sometimes closing in to the opponent, mainly to force him to go for men, or make him hesitate. Then, you can go for men or kote, depending on the situation.

I've seen people go to hasso before, but, it's hard to score from that kamae i

I don't think anyone ever uses wakigamae.

Height doesn't matter in kendo. Tall people have tall people's problems.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Height is an advantage for jodan but I think it's more a matter of disposition. People are either disposed to a kamae that requires aggression and pressure or they're not. Anyways, the point is moot - you'll be learning chudan for a few years yet. Jodan and chudan are the only kamae that are commonly used in shinai kendo. Gedan (shinai low) and hasso (shinai to the side like a ninja movie) are sometimes used briefly but I've never seen them as a main kamae. Wakigamae (shinai behind the body) just doesn't work with shinai.

[Nazo]

i've seen some people do jodan positions in our dojo when doing a shiai.

my question is what are the advantages and disadvantages of this position?

as far as i can see, when you do jodan it makes you open to dou cuts. and it seems that it takes more time to cut when you're in this postion. please elighten me in this for i'm still exploring different positions, which will best suit me.
Jodan is the aggressive stance,best to adopt this chance if your gonna go for
the initiative....,however it does leave you open for hits on the Do and Kote,
and open for a possible tsuki,thats why adopting this stance for defence would be no good,But it certainly is faster to cut when in this position!

[Old Warrior]

"Height is an advantage for jodan but I think it's more a matter of disposition. People are either disposed to a kamae that requires aggression and pressure or they're not."

From my limited perpective, it seems to me that using jodan is like showing up for a gun fight with a very accurate bolt action rifle. You seem to need nerves of steel because you can only commit to strike once and therefor you must be supremely alert and in absolute tune with your opponent.

Since I do nito, the dynamics are much different because I have the chance (and hopefully the ability) to block and strike simultaneously. My usual approach is to strike kote while protecting men with the shoto (hoping I wasn't duped into presenting my own kote). When that fails, I try and induce the opponent to cut men to set up something else and then see what presents itself. It's fun to face something different. It gets a little boring, when almost everyone who opposes me, stands in chundan with the tip pointed to their right to protect kote and to stay away from being controlled by my shoto.

[JSchmidt]

"however it does leave you open for hits on the Do and Kote,"

Uhmm, it's very hard to hit Do against jodan, if the jodan player got the slightest idea of what he's doing.

"It gets a little boring, when almost everyone who opposes me, stands in chundan with the tip pointed to their right to protect kote and to stay away from being controlled by my shoto."

Boring?..because they refuse to make it easy for you?

[Old Warrior]

"Boring?..because they refuse to make it easy for you?"

Got me... I just love that sound of a good kote hit and when they look at you like a deer caught in the headlights trying to figure out how you managed to do it.

[regularyojimbo]

Jodan vs jodan would be like Nihon Kata Ipponme. Has anybody seen what happens if two face each other jodan vs jodan. If an opponent took up jodan could one not mirror them and take up jodan too.

Does anybody have any links for video of jodan in shiai?

Thanks

abayo

[JSchmidt]

If an opponent took up jodan could one not mirror them and take up jodan too.
Only if you are confident that you stand a better chance than using chudan...and for most people, as they are not used to fighting from jodan, they are usually a lot worse of.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ai-jodan works well against someone who isn't too good in jodan - they get confused. A jodan specialist will just take you apart.

[kenshin13]

So theres not alot of people who do other wazas like using the Katsugi waza? Thats sounds like my kinda thing :wink:

[Vansen]

You can have a look at the ACT video post. Get the Open Dan Final and Semi, it shows Mr Smith who plays in jodan.

[Hai_hai]

Jodan is not for beginners.

[Inouye02]

Ai-jodan works well against someone who isn't too good in jodan - they get confused. A jodan specialist will just take you apart.

Tenken at the 12wkc i think ...

[deathbykendo]

Jodan vs jodan would be like Nihon Kata Ipponme. Has anybody seen what happens if two face each other jodan vs jodan.
Thanks

abayo

Normally what happens here is that both jodan players go for katate (single handed) kote on both the left and right hand sides.

Kirby

[mystic_kendoka]

wat would they aim for? do?

[deathbykendo]

wat would they aim for? do?
They aim for the kote which are above their head.

Dou is too far away.

[Nanbanjin]

wat would they aim for? do?

c.f.
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/15473871615632.html

Translation 1 (from Hide.-san)


There are many places to aim for. If you are a beginner at jodan then you probably wont have much shinai control, so aiming for precise targets could mean digging your own grave.

Given this the obvious suggestion would be "katate-men".

Put everything into your men cut, and hit with a feeling of smashing through the opponent's tsuka as it is held in jodan. This is surprisingly effective.
Also, that "Jodan players are weak at tsubazeriai" is a semi-established theory. So aggressively pursue techniques from tsubazeriai.


Translation 2. From Ei-san in reply to Hide.-san.


I am a piece of jodan playing rubbish (read as: "I am a bloody good jodan player)

From experience, if are confident that you can hit earlier than your opponent then go for left kote. Otherwise, I guess you would call it debana, go for your opponent's men as they begin to attack.

A lot of opponent's try to attack your left or right kote, so aiming for men can be quite effective. Also, when you are waiting in jodan, present your right kote a little to invite your opponent. When they come in to hit, try kaeshi-men, maybe.

Anyway, its important to learn to be able to see debana opportunities. This is true for situations other than ai-jodan (jodan vs. jodan). If you have grasped debana, then even this much will give you the ability to win shiai to some degee.

I don't think that jodan players are weak when it comes to tsubazeriai. Usually we train (hiki-waza from) tsubazeriai without regards to the type of kamae used. In other words, we can use the skills that we learnt when we studied chudan. If you continue to train properly after starting to use jodan there should be no problem.


Translation 3. From Hide.-san in regards to jodan players being weak/not being weak at tsubazeriai.


This is where our opinions differ.
From my experience to date, even if jodan players do the same practice as chudan players, the tsubazeriai of the jodan players was weak. Looking at other jodan players, they tend to have a high percentage of points scored against them from tsubazeriai.


On a side note and to put Hide.-san's comments in perspective, Hide.-san is attributed with introducing kasumi-no-kamae to modern kendo for use against jodan.

[Kote-Men]

i have only fought jodan once.

Jodan generates pressure to the opponent, but if you pressure him as well i found that you could go for the do with a certain level of confidence

i almost made it, but the men came down hard and fast

and he was many times my senior!

[Nanbanjin]

i have only fought jodan once.

Jodan generates pressure to the opponent, but if you pressure him as well i found that you could go for the do with a certain level of confidence

i almost made it, but the men came down hard and fast

and he was many times my senior!

You have to have confidence to play jodan. (here I go again, making comments about fighting in jodan without being a jodan player).
More to the point, to play jodan effectively you need to rid yourself of any lack of confidence.
That's why it is sometimes seen as impolite to play jodan against seniors. It is like saying "I have no fear playing you".
Jodan is also known as "hi-no-kurai", or the position of fire. I think this is because it is all out agressive.

[slidercrank]

To me, Kote-Men was saying that he fought against jodan kamae once, not that he fought using jodan kamae once.

[Nanbanjin]

To me, Kote-Men was saying that he fought against jodan kamae once, not that he fought using jodan kamae once.
Yeah, that's how I read it. Sorry for confusing things.

[Kote-Men]

oh lord i would never use jodan, i think its a kill stance.


What is the use of hasso no kamae? I heard it was invented because old samurai's couldnt raise up to jodan in their armor. So, why are we using it??

i think waki no kamae is very useful in distorting you and your opponents miai *spelling* but wouldn't the time it takes to bring your sword from the back to the front get you killed?

kamaes confuse me... gedan no kamae is also a peculiar thing, i heard its used for quickly rising strikes. Might not be bad against chudan, but against jodan....

[mystic_kendoka]

hasso was useful because of the moon thing on their helmet, but hasso is also useful for fighting indoors, with low roofs if u didnt have a wakizashi,

gedan is a tricksome or sneaky stance, in kendo u are taugh to look at your opponents eyes, if his sword is below his waist, it is hard to keep track of it..

wakki doesnt take long to strike, look at yohonme, it is more powerful than any of the other strikes..

[Kote-Men]

if you were in hasso...


lets say you wanted to strike men from hasso, so, would you just spring your sword and hit men from hasso, or would you move to jodan, like in yohonmen

[mystic_kendoka]

depends, on the height of the roof, and if you had a helmet or not, then you couldnt move into jodan, you would just strike, however if u were helmet less and in the open, depending on the situation you might go into jodan

hasso men is quicker but less stronger, so use this for quick attacks
jodan men is slower but stronger, so use this for death blows..

[Kote-Men]

in terms of kendo, not batto-justsu kenjutsu killing with real swords. please

[mystic_kendoka]

i was referring to swords..

im not saying hasso men wouldnt kill, but it would be used more for speed than its lethality whereas the jodan men would be used if u saw a good opportunity and wanted to hit as hard as you could..

[taganahan]

and cutting them in half...

~taganahan

[mystic_kendoka]

would it be easy to cut ppl in half with katanas?

in macbeth they talk of cleaving ppl in two with claymores.. but thats more of an axe than a sword..

with a katana, would a normal man be able to cleave a person? or only a trained kenshi with good arms?

[YAMAFELL]

My teammates say that in a few years I should study Jyoodan because i am 180cm or 6ft.. and being a woman, that is usually taller than most others. But I find that Chyuudan is a great way of throwing off the smaller jodan girls I play against. I played against one girl from another university that was maybe only 155cm and she really couldn't make and attacks unless i did first because I just couldn't be passed. It is really difficult sometimes.. I want to learn learn Jyoodan but i like to be more agressive without being (how could i put it...) "statue" like? I must admit players in jyoodan are really intimidating.. and i can't spell so that is all i am going to write.. ^_^

[mystic_kendoka]

its really easy... its chudan...

[YAMAFELL]

I study Japanese, and it's when it comes to long vowel sounds I get freaked out with how to write them.. (Romanji style) I am much more at ease when writing in hiragana or katakana or even **gasp** Kanji then spelling Japanese words out in romanji.. So I make mistakes quite often.. sorry for my bad skills.. you would think after almost 3 years studying and living in Japan I would have just gotten used to it, but actually my romanji has gotten worse over time. 0.o sorry again..

[kendokamax]

I study Japanese, and it's when it comes to long vowel sounds I get freaked out with how to write them.. (Romanji style) I am much more at ease when writing in hiragana or katakana or even **gasp** Kanji then spelling Japanese words out in romanji.. So I make mistakes quite often.. sorry for my bad skills.. you would think after almost 3 years studying and living in Japan I would have just gotten used to it, but actually my romanji has gotten worse over time. 0.o sorry again..

not a big deal....japanese is meant for being writen in japanese letter right?

[YAMAFELL]

yeah, but things get changed.. and there is some reason out there why romanji is in existance... so.. i should learn all.. heh.. but anyway.. jyoodan jyoudan extra "u" in there.. or is it "o" oh bother.. jyodan? forget it! I wish my computer had japanese writing skills... but it's too american.. hahaha..

[Hai_hai]

if you were in hasso...


lets say you wanted to strike men from hasso, so, would you just spring your sword and hit men from hasso, or would you move to jodan, like in yohonmen
Hasso no kamae is taught in kata.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

would it be easy to cut ppl in half with katanas?

in macbeth they talk of cleaving ppl in two with claymores.. but thats more of an axe than a sword..

with a katana, would a normal man be able to cleave a person? or only a trained kenshi with good arms?
They used to cut people in half across the middle with katanas in Japan, but it was often either corpses or sometimes prisoners tied up for execution, and was done by highly skilled cutters, professional sword testers for example. I doubt an average person could do it even then, most people have to have some practice to cut much in tameshigiri and it would be a cut equivalent to a cut through a mat the size of man's waist, even ignoring the spine. A straw mat isn't moving or swinging a sword at you at the same time either, probably didn't happen much in battle for the same reasons.

Also a claymore is a large two-handed sword, Mel Gibson uses one in that movie I can't remember the name of where he plays a Scotsman. They were also quite capable of removing large pieces of anatomy.

[mystic_kendoka]

braveheart?


so in ipponme tachi kata, if the shidachi hadnt moved back, and the uchidachi had indeed struck him, about how far would u say would he have been able to cut down?

[Stimpson J. Cat]

braveheart?Yea, I think it's braveheart.


so in ipponme tachi kata, if the shidachi hadnt moved back, and the uchidachi had indeed struck him, about how far would u say would he have been able to cut down?
Don't know if it's relevant, but in archeological(sp?) excavations of mass graves where soldiers were buried after European battles they have often found men wearing steel helmets with their heads split down to the teeth, for some reason the teeth seem to stop the cut often, but they believe most of those wounds are from staff weapons, poleaxes, halberds, and such with sword cuts to the head more commonly being a few inches deep. How you tell the difference between a poleaxe cut and a sword cut in a 500 year old corpse I don't know, so maybe there's more overlap there than I've led you to believe, especially since swords from falchions to greatswords were likely in use on any given battlefield

As to how that relates to ipponme, different sword, different helmet, or maybe no helmet if a duel, different technique, so probably not at all:rolleyes: , but if the Europeans could cut 2 or 3 inches into the head of somebody wearing a steel helmet with a warsword in one hand, you'd think a samurai should be able to cut deeper using two hands, assuming a helmet giving similar protection. One thing that could make a difference would be the weight, most modern katana that I have seen are around 1100-1200 grams, if ancient ones were the same weight, European war swords may have been somewhat heavier, the stats at http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html have examples ranging from 2.4 to 4.8 pounds,

[mystic_kendoka]

but if they were using sharp shinken katanas, 2 handed, duel with no armour, and a person struck down at the head, would it go all the way down?

[Stimpson J. Cat]

They used to cut people in half across the middle with katanas in Japan, ...

probably didn't happen much in battle
Found a reference to somebody being cut clean in half across the waist in battle, but with a European sword. Duke Godfrey of Bouillon cut a Muslim calvaryman in two outside of Jerusalem during the First Crusade. The top of his body fell to the ground and his horse ran into the city with the lower half of his body still in the saddle. Apparently this was something of a morale blow to the Muslim defenders.

The reference I have doesn't mention what type of sword he used, but Duke Godfrey became the ruler of Jerusalem after it fell to the Crusaders, so there is a considerable amount of historical information about him, maybe some of it includes the type of sword he used. A longsword would be a reasonable guess, but it would be a guess.

[mystic_kendoka]

but tht could be a myth, to make him look like a courageous warrior..

[Barnakey]

Jo-dan guys seem alot bigger than they actually are when they are in kamae, maybe thats why they decide to switch kamae?

[red dragon]

Found a reference to somebody being cut clean in half across the waist in battle, but with a European sword. This is much easier than to cut down from the head to the groin, because you have only a backbone to cut. In other case you have a head, hole chest and pelvis and much more flesh. During the muslim invasion in Bolkan peninsula, there were two brothers, serbian kings - Vulshkanin i Uglesh, one of them, I don't remember which one :), was able to cut in two a cow :rolleyes:
So about Jodan. Our sensei say us two tricks.
1. With your ken-sen you point his left kote, when he withdraw it over his head, then you atack tsuki.
2. With your ken-sen you point his troat, when he cover it with his left kote, you atack the left kote.

[JSchmidt]

Jo-dan guys seem alot bigger than they actually are when they are in kamae, maybe thats why they decide to switch kamae?
I always try to 'look down' on the opponent, even if they're taller than me, when I'm in jodan. It's more a psychological trick than anything else.
Also, although I don't fit in that category, the majority of people doing jodan, tend to be taller than most.

Jakob

[Tenken]

I know few people who not tall that does jodan at my federation. And they're still pretty good too. They could do wazas that taller jodan kenshis can't do.

[Andoru]

Jodan is not limited to those who are vertically-challenged then? Sweeet....

[Akai Bushi]

What is the difference between Migi(right) Jodan and Hidari(left) Jodan?

WARNING:Newbie question

[Berugijin]

What is the difference between Migi(right) Jodan and Hidari(left) Jodan?

WARNING:Newbie question

You have a different foot forward. In ipponme uchidachi has hidari jodan (left foot forward), and shidachi respons with migi jodan (right foot forward).

These are not the only differences but I think it's best I leave them to be explained by someone with more experience.

[mystic_kendoka]

migi jodan, right foot is in front, and shinai is straight,
in hidari jodan, the left foot is in front, so tht when u go forward, u can move further, making it more dangerous, also the shinai/bokuto/katana is tilted a bit to the side...

[edit]
dammit, berugijin beat me to it :P

[Halcyon]

What is the difference between Migi(right) Jodan and Hidari(left) Jodan?

Hidari jodan = left foot forward. Migi jodan = right foot forward. Hidari jodan is the more common jodan position. Also, in hidari jodan, the sword/shinai is in principle angled slightly, whereas in migi jodan, it's straight back.

[JByrd]

Hidari jodan = left foot forward. Migi jodan = right foot forward. Hidari jodan is the more common jodan position. Also, in hidari jodan, the sword/shinai is in principle angled slightly, whereas in migi jodan, it's straight back.

And hidari jodan players do fumikomi with the left foot, correct?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Typically, but you can cross over to the right if you like.

[Halcyon]

Yep. Normally fumikomi with the left foot, but fumikomi with the right foot when you have to get closer to your opponent for something like a do hit, or when you have to drop back down for a chudan-style kote-men (I find this useful against people who have a very low kamae against jodan. Basically they're trying to bait you into attacking first so they can do some kind of suriage waza.)

[DCPan]

There's a bunch of great posts by Ron Fox sensei on Jodan back on iaido-l in 1994...here's a sample...

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9404&L=iaido-l&P=R14447&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=0

I've saved them all in my computer somewhere...you may have to use the iaido-l archive search engine.

FWIW.

[mashu19]

it is quicker in attacking, if it wasnt, why do you think in nito, the daito is raised above the head in katate jodan? if it was slower surely the daito would be in chudan as well..

if someone goes for your doh, u can hit men, or hit their shinai out of the way..

you shouldnt use this or any other kamae other than chudan, until you know everything there is to know about chudan, 'mastered' it, and your teacher offered to teach you proper jodan..

i cant stand people who say learn chudan first. the two have basically nothing to do with each other, its totally different style of fighting. i cant do chudan, never learnt it, but i sure can do jodan. jodans not about how much chudan you know. its about how much jodan you know....

[Fudo-Shin]

i cant stand people who say learn chudan first. the two have basically nothing to do with each other, its totally different style of fighting. i cant do chudan, never learnt it, but i sure can do jodan. jodans not about how much chudan you know. its about how much jodan you know....For starters, most people do not have enough wrist strength for Jodan when they start. And Chudan is obviously a more traditional Kamae to start of learning for various reasons. Are you with Isaacs Sensei in Bris? I am surprised he let you start off in that Kamae, are you sure there are no other reasons for you starting in that Kamae besides the fact that you like it?

[JSchmidt]

i cant stand people who say learn chudan first. the two have basically nothing to do with each other, its totally different style of fighting. i cant do chudan, never learnt it, but i sure can do jodan. jodans not about how much chudan you know. its about how much jodan you know....

You haven't practiced for very long, eh?

[Sparv]

i cant stand people who say learn chudan first. the two have basically nothing to do with each other, its totally different style of fighting. i cant do chudan, never learnt it, but i sure can do jodan. jodans not about how much chudan you know. its about how much jodan you know....

You're gonna be flamed for what you are saying (in addition to massive thread necromancy)...
I'll write here what my former sensei (a 6th dan renshi who practice jodan) explains:
chudan is a must for a beginner because:
- it's easier to see the maai
- it's easier to understand why keeping the center is important
- the katate strikes are harder to do properly than the kihon ones
- low level jodan players are easier to defeat than low level chudan.
- jodan "state of mind" needs more experience
- and some other points.
I can say that as a beginner, all these points make much sense to me.

I'm obviously waiting for more advanced kenshis to correct me.

[Genya]

You're gonna be flamed for what you are saying (in addition to massive thread necromancy)...
I'll write here what my former sensei (a 6th dan renshi who practice jodan) explains:
chudan is a must for a beginner because:
- it's easier to see the maai
- it's easier to understand why keeping the center is important
- the katate strikes are harder to do properly than the kihon ones
- low level jodan players are easier to defeat than low level chudan.
- jodan "state of mind" needs more experience
- and some other points.
I can say that as a beginner, all these points make much sense to me.

I'm obviously waiting for more advanced kenshis to correct me.

Nothing to correct, but there are surely many things to add... Understanding of seme for example. And all these do make sense. It´s no use doing advanced stuff before knowing something about the basics.

[Sparv]

Nothing to correct, but there are surely many things to add...

I should have written "many other points" instead of "some other points". Bad translation. Seme is obviously a keypoint in kendo!

[Neil Gendzwill]

i cant stand people who say learn chudan first. the two have basically nothing to do with each other, its totally different style of fighting. i cant do chudan, never learnt it, but i sure can do jodan. jodans not about how much chudan you know. its about how much jodan you know....First, please stop resurrecting old threads. Second, go to a dojo and learn some kendo before you make such strong statements.