Dojo Fees?

[kenshiwannabe]

Hi, I am new here. Sorry if this breaks some etiquette rule of which I am unaware. Sorry also for the mispells.
I have been doing kendo for two months in a pay-as-you-go basis (say, I paid a monthly fee and that was it), but now the dojo owner wants me to join the kendo club and pay a considerable sum, $800 for a year of membership. I am also supposed to buy bogu from them sometime soon, at a 10-15% markup from E-Bogu prices.
I would like to know whether that is to be considered normal (and then it is a lot of ramen noddles and possible scurvy in my future) or I am being shafted with a bokken.
The dojo is a everything-goes family-style, quite tiny, with carpet floor. Three-five students in bogu, none of them dan. The rest, sweat clothes wannabes (me among them). The everyday instructor is a nidan and the advanced practice a sandan, I think.
Is is worth going for it. The other option would be a rather dubious kumdo gim but, heck, I am just beginning, I just need to learn the basics!

[nodachi]

I pay $15 a month. :)

Most people will repeat this, but money is not the motivation for most of us and the sensei to do kendo so most dojos are much cheaper than what you mention.

There are some exceptions, but even the for profit dojo with full time sensei who teach as their carreer are not as expensive as what you said.

[Snobody]

All depends on your location. Here in New York, there are a bunch of very good dojos with great sensei, but they all charge $80 a month, give or take. Manhattan rent is not cheap.
Then again if you're in the middle of nowheresville (no offence) and people in similar situations are dishing out a grand $10 a month, maybe something's wrong. Besides the fact that they want you to pay $800 straight up for the whole year, which is pretty strange. Forcing students to join a special kendo club and pay the whole year in advance and forcing you to buy bogu from them paints a pretty sketchy picture. Of course you can't really make assumptions about a dojo- I'm paying $80 a month, but it's the norm around here and I doubt I could find a dojo I'm happier with, so it's all relative.

By the way nodachi, for profit dojos ARE more expensive than 800 a year... that's around $65 a month, and there are places that charge double that, although they're not the kendo standard.

[Kaoru]

Hi, I am new here. Sorry if this breaks some etiquette rule of which I am unaware. Sorry also for the mispells.
I have been doing kendo for two months in a pay-as-you-go basis (say, I paid a monthly fee and that was it), but now the dojo owner wants me to join the kendo club and pay a considerable sum, $800 for a year of membership. I am also supposed to buy bogu from them sometime soon, at a 10-15% markup from E-Bogu prices.
I would like to know whether that is to be considered normal (and then it is a lot of ramen noddles and possible scurvy in my future) or I am being shafted with a bokken.
The dojo is a everything-goes family-style, quite tiny, with carpet floor. Three-five students in bogu, none of them dan. The rest, sweat clothes wannabes (me among them). The everyday instructor is a nidan and the advanced practice a sandan, I think.
Is is worth going for it. The other option would be a rather dubious kumdo gim but, heck, I am just beginning, I just need to learn the basics!
Hi Kenshi-san,

Whoa... I smell a rat. WHAT dojo is this?? Where are you and what state are you in please? City and state. A Kendo dojo does not have carpet. We use wood or linolium floors. You can't do proper footwork on a carpet.
This sounds like a made up Kendo dojo to me. I'd bet money, this is not a real dojo. And, a Kendo dojo is not an "everything goes" family style dojo also.(It IS only Kendo right?) There is proper etiquette and it is fairly formal to very formal, depending on the dojo. And, if I can ask you, do they use the proper Japanese terms for everything? What have you learned so far for example?

Oh, and a true Kendo sensei will never ask you to join the dojo and ask for so much money like that in a lump sum. And, you never will sign a contract and pay such a ridiculous amount. I'm dying to know what dojo this is... I'm trying hard not to ask, since that's not good etiquette... AND: Grrrr!!! A bogu mark-up that much?? There ought not BE any mark up. Run the other direction! He's trying to make a profit. Does he have everybody order from e-bogu? If he is marking up the prices from e-bogu, that's not right. He's just taking money and pocketing it. Shamful. :mad:

Look, I and others can help you find a legit dojo if you give us your city and state. You may have to drive a ways to get to one, but it is better than being ripped off like that. Regarding the Kumdo dojang. You do have to be very careful when it comes to Kumdo and legitimacy. Kumdo is fine... as long as they are a bonafide dojo. I ought to know, because I ended up in the wrong kind of Kumdo dojo once. I am doing Kendo now. We could check the kumdo dojang out too for you, if you want, if you give us their name. Bet they have a webpage. Some do. Why do you say dubious?

Oh, and you won't learn the basics correctly if it is not a true Kendo or Kumdo dojo. If that Kumdo dojang has anything other than a hard floor like a wood floor or linolium floor, stay away. That's just one red flag out of many. I hope we can help you. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Hi again,

Ok I know I'll never be able to edit my post in 5 minures, so here is another post. Sorry about that. It's just that I saw Snobody-san's post after I posted.

Ok, what I should say about the high amount is, Like Snobody-san said, it is relative to the area or building the dojo is in, and it can cost more or less depending on the rent of the area the dojo rents. I figured out what Snobody-san pays a year, and I see what Snobody-san is saying now. BUT: you still will NEVER be asked up front for an amount that big like that in a real Kendo dojo.

Oh, and no respectable Kendo sensei will teach for profit. Real Kendo sensei don't teach for profit.

Snobody-san, 10 dollars a month for training isn't unheard of. :)

Kaoru

[nodachi]

By the way nodachi, for profit dojos ARE more expensive than 800 a year... that's around $65 a month, and there are places that charge double that, although they're not the kendo standard.

Opps... sorry, being a little lazy there and didn't think that through. The rent issue makes sense for higher dues though.

[kenshiwannabe]

Thank you all for your advice. The location is St. Louis, MO. The dojo is, I assume, legit, since it appears in the kendo-usa.org page. Folks go to tournaments and so. By everything-goes I mean that they teach kendo, taekwondo, kickboxing and other MA. Brings memories from RanMa :)
Etiquette-wise, they do not seem to be over-strict but, as far as I can tell, japanese terms are given to things in the correct way.
I have not learned a lot. But then, the definition of "a lot" is quite subjective. Lots and lots of suburi, some kiri-kaeshi (sp?? gooomen kudasai). My swing is coming nicely, although my footwork stinks by practicing at home, in seiza, because a low ceiling. Now I practice in a park everyday.
I had to take a break with the dojo because of two sprained toes (bad zanshin) that did not allow me to jump on strike. So I am taking it easy now before deciding where to go.
There used to be a kendo club at my school, but somehow it has become dormant. I am trying to lure the person on charge to reactivate it (he's a shodan). No luck yet.

[kenshiwannabe]

Sorry, forgot to add, I have gone through the first three forms too.
About the mark-ups, well I don't know if the owner is paying horrible shipping fees and passing them along or if just is getting a nice middleman's profit. I was charged $40 for a 25 shinai. He tried to make me buy a kendogi-hakama marked $57 at e-bogu for $100 but I said no thanks. With hakama, I thought, there's no way to have him see my footwork and find out what I am doing wrong.
The $800 payment was in the form of a contract by which I would commit to pay that along the year. He gave me, as an option, to pay $400 cash for six months.
Thank you all for your suggestions.

[Old Warrior]

"...for profit dojos ARE more expensive than 800 a year... that's around $65 a month, and there are places that charge double that, although they're not the kendo standard."

We pay $1500/year, plus $40 to take a kyu test. Since we start at 10 kyu, on the way to shodan you can expect to spend another $400.

And, it is worth every penny. As I have expounded on this board may times, I go to class 4 times a week and could attend more. While the Grandmaster is treated with the highest respect, he is always approachable and amiable. I could not be more pleased with the education and the experience.

[nodachi]

Old Warrior, you bring up another point. How many times a week you can practice should be taken into account for the cost. If you go a lot each week, then a higher cost is not so bad.

Kenshiwannabe, how often can you practice each week? Maybe that is also a factor in their pricing.

[Shazzanzzz]

As long as it's a legit dojo, i idon't see the problem with the fees, since it sounds like one of those places that's trying to make money from teaching kendo, which is perfectly fine, as long as they teach real kendo.

Is the dojo AUSKF affiliated? What's the rank of the sensei(s)? They have a website? If they have pictures or something we can probably tell you how legit they are rightaway.

[kenshiwannabe]

Nodachi:
Two basic level practices (50 min each) plus one advanced practice in which, after the warm up suburi, I just sit and watch.
Shazzanzzz:
the dojo does not appear in the AUSKF list (there is none for Missouri). No website, either.

[Kaoru]

Sorry, forgot to add, I have gone through the first three forms too.
About the mark-ups, well I don't know if the owner is paying horrible shipping fees and passing them along or if just is getting a nice middleman's profit. I was charged $40 for a 25 shinai. He tried to make me buy a kendogi-hakama marked $57 at e-bogu for $100 but I said no thanks. With hakama, I thought, there's no way to have him see my footwork and find out what I am doing wrong.
The $800 payment was in the form of a contract by which I would commit to pay that along the year. He gave me, as an option, to pay $400 cash for six months.
Thank you all for your suggestions.
Hi!

Ok, now that you gave the location, I did a search and yes they are on the Kendo USA website, but the Kendo dojo itself, has no site. The Kendo dojo itself yes, is legit.(Looks it to me, anyway.) I did a little search. But, if you will give the name of the main school we can see if there is a website for it. That is where the Kendo information will be, if the school has a webpage. Apparently this Kendo dojo is within the TKD and etc. school. Now I see what is going on, I think... This "owner" if he's not the Kendo teacher, seems to be trying to make a profit off the Kendo, if the average rent in your city is not very high, which IMHO, is wrong. I can't understand why the Kendo teacher puts up with it, if he isn't the owner. If it was me, I'd split and find another place to hold practice. St. Louis isn't expensive as NYC for dojo rent, I can't imagine. It seems the cost should be much lower. But, even if the cost is still 800 a year, it should not be in a contract and paid upfront like that. It should be monthly with no contract. So, it's a fine line as to if it is a profit thing or not... Hard to tell, with no website to see about the dojo itself. etc. But, a contract is odd. But, others here can correct me, of course if I haven't this totally correct.

The profits that are obvious, are the uniform and shinai costs and I can just imagine what he'll try to charge for bogu.

What I want to know is, this owner, is he the Kendo instructor, or, is he just the owner of this said school which hosts the Kendo dojo? I mean, who is trying to make you pay these amounts? By the way, you do not have to go buy anything from him at all. You can, by yourself, go right to the e-bogu.com website and order what you like, with no hassle. If he says you can't buy from anywhere but him, when you get your stuff elsewhere by yourself, I'd contest that. You should never be forced to buy from a teacher. There is also Keiko-gi and hakama at bogubag.com, by the way. And, a shinai should be about 25 dollars give or take, for a standard practice shinai, but never 40.

Here is bogubag.com's page(Click on uniforms for what you need.):

http://bogubag.com/index.html

Here is e-bogu.com's website:

http://www.e-bogu.com/category_s/1.htm

The polyester hakama at bogubag.com is the easiest to take care of. I didn't see anything but tetron at e-bogu, which has cotton in it, and isn't as easy probably(But not exactly sure.) to take care of. Cotton you have to iron. As a beginner, polyester is just fine. That's what I have from bogubag.com.

No, he's not paying horrible shipping fees at all. The prices he is asking you for, he is making a nice profit off of. Don't buy from him. buy from the website itself. You do need a uniform, and after two months, I think it's fine to get keiko-gi and hakama. Talk to the Kendo teacher and ask for sure. Not the owner.

Ok, so I went to e-bogu.com to check on the Uniform set he wanted you to buy, for his marked up price of 100 dollars and then the practice shinai for 40 dollars.

What I found out:

The uniform set on the site is $59.00.

There is no tax that I found.

Shipping costs for uniform alone were three choices:

Ground shipping: $16.19
2nd day shipping: $30.31
Next day shipping: $56.38

Uniform cost alone, no shinai, with shipping added:

Total amount you will pay:

Ground shipping: $75.19
2nd day shipping: $89.31
Next day shipping: $115.38

A 38 shinai costs $19.99 and the 39 costs $24.99.

Shipping for one shinai alone regardless of the size(38 or 39) was:

Ground shipping: $8.69
2nd day shipping: $13.31
Next day shipping: $31.38

Shinai alone without uniform cost with shipping cost added:

38 shinai:

Total amount you will pay:

Ground shipping: $28.68
2nd day shipping: $33.30
Next day shipping: $59.37

39 shinai:

Total amount you will pay:

Ground shipping: $33.68
2nd day shipping: $38.30
Next day shipping: $56.37

Then, I went to see the total cost for a shinai(no bag) and the Keiko-gi/hakama set together if you buy them together all at once.

Keiko-gi/hakama set and 38 shinai total cost, no shipping added: $79.98
Keiko-gi/hakama set and 39 shinai total cost, no shipping added: $84.98

Shipping costs for either above set of keiko-gi/hakama and shinai together:

Ground shipping: $17.69
2nd day shipping: $33.71
Next day shipping: $61.38

Keiko-gi/hakama set and 38 shinai total cost: $79.98 plus shipping costs added:

Total amount you will pay:

Ground shipping: $97.67
2nd day shipping: $113.69
Next day shipping: $141.36

Keiko-gi/hakama set and 39 shinai total cost: $84.98 plus shipping costs added:

Total amount you will pay:

Ground shipping: $102.67
2nd day shipping: $118.69
Next day shipping: $146.36

So...instead of paying $140.00 to this person, you can see that it will in the end, cost you no more than $102.67 total cost in the end, depending on which size shinai you are currently using.

And, you should never have to sign a contract. I can't name one Kendo dojo that makes you do that. And, you should not have to pay a lump sum in advance, either.

Well, I hope this helps, and I really hope the Kendo teacher isn't also the owner.(Sorry, it's just hard to tell who you are talking about, so I don't know who is who. No offense to anyone!) Good luck.

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Nodachi:
Two basic level practices (50 min each) plus one advanced practice in which, after the warm up suburi, I just sit and watch.
Shazzanzzz:
the dojo does not appear in the AUSKF list (there is none for Missouri). No website, either.Kenshi-san,

Yes they are, as far as the Kendo America site says. Ask the Kendo teacher and they should be willing to confirm they are members of the AUSKF. Members of the AUSKF are also listed on this site, but sometimes, dojos are only just listed on only one site, either AUSKF or Kendo America(USA). Correct, they themselves, have no webpage, but the main dojo might. And also correct, they are not on the AUSKF website. Still, they are members of the AUSKF.

Go here:

http://www.kendo-usa.org/statedojolist.htm

From the Kendo USA(America) website:

Listing and Update

Organizations on this list within the USA are members of the All United States Kendo Federation. Organizations that are not members of the AUSKF will not be listed. If you do not see a listing for your area then there is no AUSKF affiliated dojo and we will not have information on any dojo.

-------------------------

However: The dojo they are RENTING from for space, may be the whole problem, like I mentioned above. What is their name please? The TKD etc, dojo you mentioned the dojo is a part of. I can search for their webpage if they have one. If I was the Kendo teacher, I'd leave and find another practice space, like a school gym or something that is not another dojo.

Kaoru

[cst]

Kaoru...your making this a personal mission...If there isnt any other choices in his area and they are teaching legitimate kendo, thats fine...In a real kendo school where you have classes everyday..no one has the time to totally commit his whole life without a means to makeing a living. THere are kendo dojos all over Japan and abroad that are full time schools, not 2 day a week clubs...They have expenses.. Its too hard to rent a gym a couple of nights a week and then find another place a couple of nights more to get a full practice..You're making students go from one place to another..
So you really cant say that:
"Oh, and no respectable Kendo sensei will teach for profit. Real Kendo sensei don't teach for profit. " People who devote themselves to the martial arts have to live too. Unless they are all shaolin monks who live on donations or something.

Unfortantely..we dont know the whole story...frankly, I dont care...as long as they teach real kendo..you have to pay to play..

Its not like they can check where you buy the extra shinai from...get it else where but if they require you to wear bogu bought from them like most schools do then you may have to order a cheaper one if the mark up is too high....After becoming a black belt..they should let you get anything you want.
Unfortunatly...retail prices are always going to be higher than internet prices

[Curtis]

If you want to email me at cm@kendo-usa.org I will put you in touch with the other kendo club in St. Loius that will be part of the SW Kendo group and they will not be asking for $800 per year.

[kenshiwannabe]

Kaoru-sempai,
Thank you very much for the exhaustive information.
Far as I know, the relationship dojo-instructor goes as this: the owner of the multi-MA dojo ("Kickmasters" is the name) decided to start a kendo club, being him the first instructor. I think he is a nidan, but I could be wrong. After that, a wandering (kidding) japanese sensei joined in and leads--officially--the club. He comes in only for the advanced practice. We have had in the last months another visiting sensei. I am not certain, of the grades of the two sensei. In absolute awe as a beginner I stay away from them.
So, ultimately, the owner of the dojo has the final say. The scheme to ask him to look for another (more affordable) place is quite unworkable. I will check another dojo that (arigato Curtis-san) is going to be soon recognized.

BTW, I have read in another post, from something like a year ago, that you had a visual impairment of lack of depth perception. I think I am in the same situation (a non-functional eye) and I have wondered if that would put an unsurmontable handicap on my kendo. Could you please tell me if you have been able to develop a sense of space in spite of that problem?

[Pombar]

Unless they are all shaolin monks who live on donations or something.

What, do you think Shao-lin monks can live off donations in countries like america and the uk? They have to survive from fees payed by students just like senseis.

Also, in answer to the last post, i lost and eye when I was 5, and I practise both Kendo (though only for a short while) and Shao-lin Gong Fu Ch'an, and I'm the top of my group in Gong fu.

[Dave Fowler]

We ask people to pay advance fees for the summer. A lot of people say 'ya i'll be there' for the summer and then end up on holidays, or 'it's too nice a day' etc. But the rent still has to be paid. So we get everyone in late spring to pay for their fees for the entire summer. That way if a few don't show we can still make ends meet.


As for paying for the whole year, the only time I've heard of that is my old sensei is starting up a dojo in an area where bogu is very hard to bring in (high shipping costs) and people tend to be fairly laid back. As a result he doesn't want to spend a bunch of time training people unless they are really serious about it. So he is making them pay for the enitire years fees and buy their bogu (not from him tho) before he will even start the club up.

[Tsurugi]

the dojo I tried to go to costed more than 250 dollars to register. But costs 25 dollars per month.