Makiotoshi?

[Sushi Lover]

It was mentioned as a technique in "This is Kendo" by Junzo Sasamori and Gordon Warner but I´ve never read about it anywhere else and my sensei has never said anything about it (although we´ve only been practicing waza in bogu for a few weeks so maybe I´m getting ahead of myself :redface: ) I´m just wondering if anyone else could describe it for me or tell me what kinda technique it is?
cheers

[jmarsten]

it is the technique of doing a circular "wrapping " of your opponents shinai with yours. As the opponent moves toward you wrap your shinai around theirs by a circular motion to the your left. If done properly you can rip the shinai out of there hands. Sometimes sending it 25 feet in the air and clear accross the dojo. If done not with a lot of vigor but with the right timing the opponent becomes open and you can strike the kote or men.
I would give it a few more weeks before you try to add that one to your tool box. :smiley:

[taganahan]

circular motion? ok, if you're doing this, where would the circular motion be at the opponents shinai. is it at the middle or near the tsuba of the opponent?

[tapioka]

the "maki" action should take place towards the fat part of the shinai, close to the tsuba. with the tip of your shinai guiding your opponent's shinai at the base, it causes their shinai to circulate once and then land in a position where their kote is easily open (and the men too).

jmarsten-sensei taught me this today, as a matter of fact. :)

[Musha]

I have read about this but am way too slow to do it :D. It's kind of like Harai waza from beneath and Gyaku opposite side of the Shinai. You must move forwards while drawing a 270 degree circle to the right.

If done properly you can rip the shinai out of there hands. Sometimes sending it 25 feet in the air and clear across the dojo.

I don't see why people seem intent on doing this and maybe getting a foul, because if done correctly your opponent will be completely open and full of suki. Enabling you to cut Shoumen easily :D.

[D'Artagnan]

It is increadibly useful to disarm an opponent, especially during Shiai. for two main reasons:

1). it is one of the most demoralising things that can happen to an opponent, this is obviously useful in shiai.

2). if you are quick enough, you can score a yukko datotsu before the call of 'yame' (as demonstrated by somebody at the Sir Frank Bowden Taikai)

that's why some people are 'intent' of using it to disarm people (If you ever get to fence with Rutger Vermulen Sensei i am sure he will demonstrate the technique 1st hand). Personally i am not good enough yet to make it work in this way, so i use this technique to create suki, especially for men-uchi.

[Hai_hai]

The principle behind the disarm move in kendo is similar to the "derobement" in fencing. A simple circular movement is not enough to disarm the opponent's weapon. That would just draw a circle. You want to first make contact where your shinai's middle part meets the opponent's top third. If you don't do it this way, you cannot gain control of their shinai and your opponent can just release his shinai while you are drawing the circle. This is because you have more leverage closer to your hands and the least leverage at the tip.

[DCPan]

I have read about this but am way too slow to do it :D. It's kind of like Harai waza from beneath and Gyaku opposite side of the Shinai. You must move forwards while drawing a 270 degree circle to the right.


Actually, you can also do this on the way out of tsuba-zeriai. :rolleyes:

I tend to visualize this a little differently.

If you ask someone to hold a shinai up and use your shinai to tap it lightly from one end to another, you will find these nodes where the tapping "feels" different (something about waves and stuff...physics was too long ago).

I've found that in my own personal successful attempts of maki-waza (which is rare), if both nodes of the opponent's shinai are affected in the technique, it actually doesn't have to take that much uummph. So, I'm either spiraling in, or spiraling out.

NOTE: the spiraling is the sum of the circular motion of your shinai and the physical displacement of your body. If you are standing in place trying to spiral, your own kote and men is nice and open if your opponent follows your movement. :confused2

It would appear like circuling to your own left is the convention. Does anyone circle to the right with success?

BTW:

Maki-age = wrap-up
Maki-otoshi = wrap-down

Just distinguish between which direction the opponent's shinai end up moving toward.

FWIW.

[regularyojimbo]

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Try something like this:
http://www.e-budo.com/pics/kendo.wmv
Good luck :D




Is this what everybody means?!

[Sushi Lover]

Cool, I think I get the general idea. Thanks for the answers! I don´t think this is anything I´ll be trying soon though! Nice clip regularyojimbo!

[regularyojimbo]

credit for clip must go to Ishii though.

[Machismo111]

Omg, that was the sickest thing I've ever seen in my entire life! O_O

Man...Cool! =D

[taganahan]

very nice clip!!! that would really demoralize his opponent real badly....sweet!!

i've been practicing circular movement to the right but my intention was not to disarm, instead i aimed for the kote.

was that guy a pro cause it really made me wonder....if the guy was a pro and holds the shinai tightly, then it must really work...

[Masahiro]

if the guy was a pro and holds the shinai tightly, then it must really work...

yes, that "guy" is a pro. .. ... and No, pros actually do not hold their shinai "tightly". .. ...and just for the record, while this "circular' waza is really cool, I know dojos who specifically practice counter techniques against this waza, so . .. ...take your chances in the tournaments. Consider this my warning. Good luck,

[taganahan]

can you describe how this counter-makiotoshi looks like? maybe we can make a counter-counter-makiotoshi...hehe

[Masahiro]

hahahahaha, that is actually not a bad idea. In essense, the counter techniques these dojo practice lies not in "reversing" the motion or effect of the makiotoshi waza but in taking sen, so to practice a counter counter techniques is really to go back to the basics and reassure a good kihon. There is no kendo prettier than simple, elegant kendo.

[taganahan]

can you please expound taking sen cause i want to practice this makiotoshi and at the same time the counter of it, as it might be used against me.

[Masahiro]

hahahaha, hmmm. .. I would really like to answer this question for you. But I am not qualified. Leave this thread for a couple days, as I am sure there will be other more experienced kendo students on this forum that can help you with the topic of "sen". it's more a mental study than it is a physical dimension.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My sensei refers to makiotoshi as rokudan technique. It's very tough to execute in jigeiko or shiai. At your level, I'd leave it alone.

[Hai_hai]

can you describe how this counter-makiotoshi looks like? maybe we can make a counter-counter-makiotoshi...hehe
Because of leverage reasons, you cannot fight against it. If you feel it starting, that is when you want to move your shinai. If you are caught, it's pretty much too late.

[taganahan]

there must be one. i mean, if we apply physics here newton's second law suggests that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. i'm not being too pushy in here but i've been really into techniques that fools or demoralizes the opponent, just to degrade their mental capacity at the moment and their concentration too.

[JSchmidt]

"there must be one. i mean, if we apply physics here newton's second law suggests that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Don't fight it and try to `out-circle` the opponents shinai..as it comes towards the end, cut men.

Jakob

[Hai_hai]

[QUOTE=taganahan]there must be one. i mean, if we apply physics here newton's second law suggests that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. ...QUOTE]
Yes, the solution is to spin your shinai faster in the same direction to get out of the trap.
I've yet to experience it in kendo. I have experienced this in western fencing. The counter to this move is 1. disengagement when you feel the pressing and winding starting. 2. move in the same direction of the circle but faster.
The attacker usually is doing the derobement movement in a corkscrew manner, i.e. moving in while moving the blade in a circle. This movement left partially performed is called a bind and you cannot release from it. This movement performed with a quick whip movement at the end is the derobement where the opponent's weapon leaves their hand.

I feel that this move is similar to kendo, strategically speaking, in that it is rarely used because your opponent can catch onto it if you use it a lot and you don't always want to use your sneaky moves often.

[tapioka]

but wouldn't raising your arms to cut a men be slightly easier? or is not that simple?