Mokuso and the eyes

[Charlie]

Over the weekend, I was at the midwest tournament in Chicago. I was talking with a friend about mokuso.

I was taught in mokuso to keep the eyes partially open, focused on a space about fifteen feet in front of me on the floor, with everything else in my peripheral vision. But as I continued kendo I saw senseis and others close there eyes during mokuso. So I did it too. It's easier to clear your head and meditate that way!

But my friend said his sensei, George Izui of Chicago, BTW, rest in peace, always insisted the eyes remain open. If you closed your eyes during mokuso, sensei would bop gently you on the head with shinai and say something like, "Now you're dead."

I will do what Izui-sensei said. But I was wondering what everyone else has been taught about mokuso and the eyes?

[mingshi]

IMHO you only mokuso with eyes half open in a dojo (budo in general), which require awareness to the surroundings.

I've never really see buddist monks meditates with their eyes open when I visit temples around China.

It really depends on the Sensei then. Mine won't come over and bob my head. I'd be too busy to breath and let my eyes go half-open...

------
I also want to ask, when in Seiza... do you do Rei with both hands out together, or left hand goes first?

Some Sensei can go quite picky... :p

[Charlie]

Hi, Mingshi! Right over left, left over right, doesn't matter. Funny enough, there was an article on this in Kendo World, right?

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by mingshi
I also want to ask, when in Seiza... do you do Rei with both hands out together, or left hand goes first?

Some Sensei can go quite picky... :p

I've been taught to keep the eyes half open. But either way is fine as long as you reach the objective, which is the no-mind.

Anyway, in kendo the bow is made with both hands together. In Iaido, the left hand goes down first, then the right. Then the right comes up and then the left. Also, you bow to the sword with the eyes forward in a discreet manner.

[Charlie]

Oh! Sorry, Mingshi, you asked about rei and I described the mudra in mokuso. ("Left over right...") Sorry!

While we're on the subject of rei, I am told that when you bow you should not let your butt come off your heels too much - if at all! Can anyone elaborate on this?

[Confound]

Mingshi,

In iaidou, we do rei form seiza with the left hand descending first from your lap, then the right. when you rise from rei, your right hand goes back to your lap first. In kendou, that is not necessary.

c

[toreisu]

Originally posted by Charlie
...While we're on the subject of rei, I am told that when you bow you should not let your butt come off your heels too much - if at all! Can anyone elaborate on this? [/B]
---------------------------------

I have been taught that once your hands are down, it is a matter of moving as if to touch your elbows to the ground (hips and butt do not come up), rather than dropping your head towards the ground/your hands (hips and butt invariably come up - unless you are a contortionist). Moving from your head usually causes it to bend down. In rei, you want to keep the head in line with your back.

[Charlie]

Okay, I'm at work, but that didn't stop me from getting on the floor and trying it.

Good tip, thanks!

[Hyaku]

While we're on the subject of rei, I am told that when you bow you should not let your butt come off your heels too much - if at all! Can anyone elaborate on this?

__________________
Charlie Kondek

Hello Charlie

Is your butt on your heels?

Mines always about a thin magazines width off them. Took a few years to get it right though. I can sit for quite a while now.
.....
Confound I think its changed over the years. In Kendo I used to do it the Iai way too. Now its both together. Could have just been the particular way I was taught?

My eyes are open. Then again if you look down focusing a few meters away they may appear to be closed. At work when the students do Mokuso they close their eyes.

Hyaku

[Confound]

Hyaku,

I don't differentiate anymore. When the kids at school go 'eeeehhh?' I just shrug. They're used to it now, and my sempais recognize it for what it is anyway. one of my kendou teachers still thinks the iai way is odd though.

I'm not sure which one is essentially correct for kendou, or if it matters. Though there will certainly be many who disagree, I think that either way is perfectly fine, they're both expressing the right kind of sentiment. However, you know how hidebound some people can be about these things.

c

[Hyaku]

Confound wrote..

One of my kendou teachers still thinks the iai way is odd though.

Dunno why? If you put your sword on the ground at the side of your body its common sense that the drawing hand is last and first. For Torei its hands together. If its seitei kata its been made up or taken from some other ryu. If its koryu Iaido there are specific methods.

I have scrolls dating from the late 1600s describing particular etiquette. The sword was placed on the left at the beginning. The hands rested high on the legs just below the waist. The bow was done without the hands moving. At the end of an embu the same seated bow was made with the sword pulled from the Obi and placed on the right.

There are so many made up things its difficult to know where to start. We just stick to the basic Ogasawara reiho in kenjutsu.

Nowadays men do a standing bow with the hands at the sides. Originally men moved the hand slightly to the front.

Hyaku

[mingshi]

Mmm... interesting.
On a few occasions I was told that all these "left and right" Reigi are associated with drawing swords. That'll explain things like:

1. On Rei in Seiza, put left hand on the floor first. So that the right hand (drawing hand) will be free in case of emergency.

2. While going onto Seiza, left knee on the floor first. If the right knee is on first, the person won't be able to draw the sword with his/her left leg on the way...

3. Use your right hand to grap your left Kote and put the left one on first. So when you need to pick up your sword mid way, your right hand is still FREE.

Same principle for reverse.

I don't know... but it doesn't reeeeeeally make sense to me when you are in the dojo facing the Sensei..... And you still have free your drawing hand and be aware that the Sensei will attack you....? :p

[Confound]

Like other things in kendou and iaidou, it's preserving the tradition of swordsmanship. It may also be zansshin, insome small way. You are showing your alertness, your readiness for an attack. Your guard is not down at any time.

c

[Hyaku]

The well known Ide Katsuhiko Sensei winner of ZNKR Iai Taikais is very serious about Zanshin. He makes a point of showing his alertness even before he sits in seiza. He moves down and up with amazing determination

Mingshi...

I think the knee thing is a more modern advent. To me it depends where Kamiza/Shinden is. Its usually polite to move the knee that is farthest away from there when going down into seiza.

My old koryu shihan taught me that all my Ryu's etiquette is done beforehand and both swords are in the Obi before entering any area. Took some getting used and was a bit embarrasing to as many other ryu are still doing their etiquette on the floor and I'm sitting in tate hiza or standing. Nevertheless I am "ready" to go.

Hyaku

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[stakenaka]

Hmm... about the putting on the Kote.
It isn't so much that your right hand is free, but it deals mostly with the construction of real kote (kote-ate).
Real kote are armored sleeves and are really cumbersome until you tighten them. If you put the right on first you cannot draw the sword. If you have the kote on your left arm (even if it is not completely on), you can still grab the sword with the left hand, and draw with the right. If you are attacked while you have your left kote on and in the process of putting on the right, you can defend yourself with your left arm.

[Charlie]

Hyaku,

Butt is slightly *off* the heels?

(Gets down on floor at work and tries it...)

Hmmm! Never done this before. First observation - Oh, my thighs!

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Charlie
I was taught in mokuso to keep the eyes partially open, focused on a space about fifteen feet in front of me on the floor, with everything else in my peripheral vision.

Mingshi hit the nail on the head with "IMHO you only mokuso with eyes half open in a dojo (budo in general), which require awareness to the surroundings."

IMHO - While in the dojo you should always be aware of your surroundings.

In mokuso, sitting relaxed, with your back and neck straight, your eyes partially closed with your sightline diverted to the floor some distance in front of you, provides the opportunity for reflection or meditation and you can also observe and assess any changes or potential threats.

Richard

[Charlie]

Right. As I may have mentioned, I started off this way, but then observed so many students and teachers closing their eyes (or seeming to). And it's so much *easier* to clear one's mind with the eyes closed. However, I think eyes open as you described it is the way to do it. Just have to learn to incorporate that.

[Kendoka]

... you wrote "closing their eyes (or seeming to). "

I suspect the "seeming to" is just that.

R

[ben]

I agree: someone with their eyes half-closed "seems" to have them closed from a distance.

For the short time that mokuso lasts, it's not a real problem to have the eyes fully closed. IMHO if this helps you let go of all thoughts more effectively then well and good.

However in the case of zazen, where the sitting period is usually around forty minutes without a break, the necessity of keeping the eyes a little open becomes apparent. Quite simply if you don't you will fall asleep.

On the rei in seiza: I was originally taught (in Australia) the old -fashioned way: left hand then right hand. When I was in Japan I was told by several different kendo sensei that this is now regarded as too formal. "It is only for bowing to the Emperor", said one.

As Hyaku says, there have been so many little changes made...

BTW when you say your butt is off your heels in seiza Hyaku, is that due to a congenital stiffness in your musculature, or a you just a well-hard bastard who loves pain?

b

[hamish]

On the rei in seiza, I'm a bit sceptical about the "bowing to the emperor" bit, as doing it left hand then right is because you are ready to draw your sword up until the last moment if your opponent shows any signs of attacking you, something that would be considered deeply offensive if you're in front of the emperor.

It is used in iaido for the bow to the sword, but not at any other time, all other bows should be with both hands together, as kendo is now.

Hamish

[Charlie]

Actually, now that I think about it (just to clarify) I have seen quite a few players actually close their eyes. Don't know if I've seen many sensei do it, though...

[Hyaku]

As Hyaku says, there have been so many little changes made...

BTW when you say your butt is off your heels in seiza Hyaku, is that due to a congenital stiffness in your musculature, or a you just a well-hard bastard who loves pain?
...............

I have to sit in seiza at work too as I employed by a Buddhist sect (Have to do for the next hour or so with a few short breaks). Could plonk my butt down but I don't.

Japan is really messy when it comes to these things isnt it? There are so many Western type surfaces to sit on now and seiza just dont fit in. Western clothes dont help either Likewise I have problems with Gofuku (Japanese clothes) and driving.

My worst experience by far are these new Western style houses with plain wooden floors everywhere. There are a tremendous amount of Japanese people now living and lying on wooden floors with a few very thin sponge cushions. Feels like camping.

Hyaku

[chidokan]

Hyaku,

maybe you could make a few bob selling carpets....might pay for your retirement boat....

Tim

[Hyaku]

Hyaku,

maybe you could make a few bob selling carpets....might pay for your retirement boat....

Tim
..


I can see why they like it in the summer with the nice cool floor under the feet. I used to take my carpets up in the summer. The rest of Asia go for nice cool tiles. Difference is they use chairs.

Hyaku

[Charlie]

An update:

On Saturday I went to the Detroit club for practice and during closing ceremony tried to look up at the line of seneis across from me to see what they were doing with their eyes. It seemed some of them closed their eyes. Then I saw the head instructor, Tagawa-sensei - his eyes were open and he was looking at all of the kenshi (probably to check out their posture, etc.) I quickly looked back down at the floor!

[Nishi]

Our dojo practices, mokuso with our eyes slightly open, so that you can just barley see shadows.