Tapping shinai at Issoku-itou...

[mingshi]

Some people press their shinai tip to their opponent's to feel how strong their centre are -- but some prefers tapping on it. It annoys me sometimes but is there a technical advantage of doing so? :rolleyes:

[junkyman]

I think its mostly just a bad habit that can be a disadvantage is your opponent can time your tapping and use it as an opening.

[jmarsten]

Some people press their shinai tip to their opponent's to feel how strong their centre are -- but some prefers tapping on it. It annoys me sometimes but is there a technical advantage of doing so? :rolleyes:
Only if it annoys you enough to make you respond. Your response could create and opening for the opponent.

[Taek]

Sometimes I press opponent's shinai quickly to the side in order to make opening and it may feel like I'm tapping it. An opponent with strong chudan no kamae, I quite often would tsuki myself on the opponent's shinai by running into it during attempting a men cut or get stuck on the shinai without being able to go through with showing my zanshin if I don't achieve the opponent's centre and the opeining first. And I agree to what Jmarsten mentioned. I often found the hardest one to fight is one who doesn't move...like a rock.

Well, Musashi's The book of five rings says the same thing - 'The body of a rock'.

Also, I found a good article about 'How to dominate the Centre'.

http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/6dan_e.html

Cheers

[Andoru]

Taek - you've been posting excellent links lately. Keep up the good work! :D

[JSchmidt]

It annoys me sometimes but is there a technical advantage of doing so? :rolleyes:
Well, you just mentioned one of the reasons why to do it..that it can annoy people...what then often happens is that people try to push your shinai away and they're wide open for an attack.:-)

Jakob

[Hai_hai]

Some people press their shinai tip to their opponent's to feel how strong their centre are -- but some prefers tapping on it. It annoys me sometimes but is there a technical advantage of doing so? :rolleyes:
Depends on who is doing it. If it's part of their strategy, they've got multiple plans. 1. They tap so you tap back. When you tap back, they move their shinai so you "over swing" and lose center. 2. Tap to see how strong your center is. If it is really strong, they will tap it really hard to get it out of center. This is to try to get you to come back to center quickly (like a spring flexing back), in the meantime, they will move their shinai hoping you will over-swing on the way back and lose center. If they get their timing right, they will make a kote or men cut just when you lose center. 3. If your center is weak when tapping, they will just bang your shinai out of the way and come in with men uchi. 4. Mentally try to tap you off of center where your kamae stays off center. This is nuts but works with beginners.

[Taek]

Taek - you've been posting excellent links lately. Keep up the good work! :D
Thanks Androu. :redface: Compare to your contribution to this forum, I've done only little. Well, thanks to everyone who shares their knowledge here.

[Phlebas]

[quote] http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/6dan_e.html [quote]


That's an interesting article Taek, thanks for posting. It makes me think about who's really controlling centre... of course I'm no rokudan, but I'm learning.

[Kaoru]

Some people press their shinai tip to their opponent's to feel how strong their centre are -- but some prefers tapping on it. It annoys me sometimes but is there a technical advantage of doing so? :rolleyes:
Well what you could do, is let them tap your shinai, and turn it into your advantage. I'm not into bogu yet, but I have an idea that I'm dying to try. Why not draw them into your center by taking a step or two or maybe more, back if it can be managed, as they tap your shinai, enticing them to follow you? If they follow you, and some might, because they are first concentrating on the tapping to see if they are going to get you to do what they want, they might not notice you moving backwards, and you can attack them off guard this way. I don't know if this would work, but that's what I'd try if they tapped on my shinai.

That could be a technical advantage for the person receiving the tapping couldn't it? Do you guys think it would really work?

Kaoru

[Masahiro]

Since when is kendo the way of "tapping your opponent's shinai"? and since when did we start to teach people to use "strategy" in the midst of a shia? What happened to just attack, try to kill your opponent with your seme and ki instead of tapping them, feeling their center, see how strong it is, and then lure him into your possible scheme? come on guys, do you see the hachidan's tapping their opponent's shinai ? Anyways, don't be offended I don't mean anything by it. just had to get it off my chest. If we all concentrate on tapping and continue to perfect this "feeling the center" by having to make contact with your opponents shinai, your "tapping" techniques will most definately get better. but I ask you this then, think about what kendo will evolve to 50 years from now, luckily the few hachidan these days have gone back to the basics to perfect their skills.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The battle for centre through tip contact is a valid part of kendo, Masahiro, I don't see why you need to be so derisive. When I come up against new opponents, one of the ways I assess them is through the way their kensen feels. Strong people put their spirit out in the kensen, it feels alive. It's a much different feeling than just batting back and forth, but it's still the same idea.

It's not always useful to say "hachidan don't do it that way" - to get to their level, you have to learn over time. As kurukuru says, you have to do the kendo appropriate to your level. You can't go from nothing to a live kensen and incredible seme - you get there step by step. Tapping the tip, making circles, trying to push and see what happens - these are all things people should try. Eventually they will figure out how to accomplish these things more subtly.

[Curtis]

come on guys, do you see the hachidan's tapping their opponent's shinai ?
Yes, you do see them using this. I have practiced with many 8 dan and even a couple 9 dan. I have also studied video of them. It is known as "shinai foreplay" in translation to english. It may be more subtle but it is there nonetheless.

[Masahiro]

Neil, Yes that's my point exactly. (refering to the first paragraph in your post.) Also, Neil the starter of this thread and a couple of the people who responded to this thread are no where even near 3 dan yet. I am just advocating good center. On a side note, I know exactly what you mean when you say a good opponent's swords feels alive. However, that isn't achieved through "tapping" his/her shinai. I've fought against opponents whose sword felt "live" as oppose to "dead sword" and I've gotten that feeling before even making contact with their shinai. This is really about seme and application of seme instead of "tapping" shinai to test center. I advocate good kendo in accord with no excessive movements. And oh another thing, while I respect what mr. kurukuru said. I don't entire agree with it. Because, while we may only do the type of kendo appropriate for our particular levle, but that must be a fact that other observe of you. It can never be something you tell yourself. Suppose you are figting a hachidan and you say "I am just not as good as he is, and I will simply do the best kendo I can at my leve" then it would be fine. but if you were to practice everyday, or however many days a week you practice with the attutide "I may only do the kendo that is appropriate at my level" then only small advancements in your skill can be made. I, myself, consciously always try to do hachidan kendo. What about you Neil?

To Curtis,

hmmm, if you want to judge it on technicality. .. "O.k" hachidan's do "make contact with each other's shinai" but I think if you were to say well hachidan's do it, so it's o.k. we do it. then, may you do all of what the majority is doing. Hachidan's also duck their head in shia's, so it's o.k. we duck our heads right? I am not trying to provoke any response, I just want people to think about what they are going to do before they do it. I am never ever going to tell something "well, this is right" when there are some aspect of it that remain "grey".

lastly, I thank you two for your kind replies. I have gained from it and I hope others may have as well through the errors I have made.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I, myself, consciously always try to do hachidan kendo. What about you Neil?
How do you even know what hachidan kendo is? I reckon I'm doing pretty good if I understand what I need to do to improve to 1 dan more than I am now. I only have a vague idea of what's going on 2 dan above me. I don't understand hachidan kendo at all.


"O.k" hachidan's do "make contact with each other's shinai" but I think if you were to say well hachidan's do it, so it's o.k. we do it. then, may you do all of what the majority is doing. Hachidan's also duck their head in shia's, so it's o.k. we duck our heads right?
You can't have it both ways. In one breath you say, "don't tap, hachidan don't tap", then you say "don't do everything hachidan do because some of them do it wrong". It's illogical to start with. It also begs the question of whether you really understand what they are doing.

I think it's better at your level to do what hachidan instructors tell you to do. They've been where you are on the path, they can give you advice as to how to advance along the path.

[Masahiro]

hahahaha, good points neil. But I am not sure if I understand your perfectly. No less, I will write to you via e-mail instead of posting here. For it would be far too long of a post. I believe this topic can serve as the platform of a good discussion. However, you will have to wait till this week end for the -mail, as I still need time to finish some of my summer class h/w. To say the least though, you will find my reply sufficient in clearing up some of the misunderstanding which may have occured as a result to the exchange of internet forum posts. please do check your e-mail this week end.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just post it here. For one thing, I won't have easy access to my work email this weekend (and the weekend starts today here in Canada). For another, people probably want to hear what you have to say. Public discussions of stuff like this are useful - beats hammering to death whether one bogu set is worth $25 more than another one.

[Hai_hai]

Since when is kendo the way of "tapping your opponent's shinai"? and since when did we start to teach people to use "strategy" in the midst of a shia? ....
I was able to watch a video of the 49th AJKF championship. Strangely enough, they were tapping each other's shinai and employing strategy.

[Hai_hai]

Note, the original post said some people tap and some people press. Different ways to feel your opponent's shinai.

[Masahiro]

While it is certainly correct to remain humble and say that our current knowledge and skill (despite whatever that level may be) is limited. I firmly believe one must never be content merely doing what he/she is asked/expected to. For example, when you should decide it's time to test for the next level of rank, often times unknowingly you are already able to demonstrate the required comptetence for the grade you are testing. If you should agree with what I have just said, then it isn't hard to appreciate one's effort for consciously amulating the kind of kendo hachidan sensei do. However, this is not to say I make the conscious effort to amualte their every actions. After all, just as no one should tell you to change your style of writing. Each of us has a different style or perhaps you would called "rhythm" by which you choose to play kendo. When I say "I consciously try to do hachidan kendo", I am speaking of the ideals by which they strive for. And it really is goal or "finishing place" we should all strive for. Yes, hachidans may know how to perform harai wazas, suriage wazas, or even makiotoshi wazas a lot better than you and I. But these techniques are all instruments employed to take "sen". Just as someone once said you should always play kendo with "STRIKE and win" attitude, and not "strike, and WIN". I don't advocate people spending too much effort in coming up with schemes to take "center" and not the initiative to attack. After all if I have your center yet I never attack, what good does this dominance of the center serve me? And to farther "defend" my views I've stated before. I don't think it is a good idea for everyone especially beginners to concentrate on tapping each other shinai at issoku itto no maai thinking that it is the only way to get a feel of how strong your opponents center is. after all, the ability to dominate and maintain the center isn't achieved by how well you can hold the tip of your shinai to point to the center of your opponent, it comes from nice, comfortable execution of your foot work. When the hachidan's tap each other's shinai, (on the few occasions they do) can you say for sure it is solely out of the purpose to test each other's center? or are they playing a "mental chess game" or for even some farther abstract purpose? hmmm I will post more thought on this later on tonight. As I am sure Neil will have couple of comments to add to my post. For now I have to rush to my class. I await for your replies . ..

[DCPan]

Hi Masahiro and all,

I’ve been reading this thread with some interest, as the whole concept of SEME is really a wall that I’m trying to climb. Tip-play and the role of “tapping” play a role in this.

It is interesting that you mention Just as someone once said you should always play kendo with "STRIKE and win" attitude, and not "strike, and WIN". I don't advocate people spending too much effort in coming up with schemes to take "center" and not the initiative to attack.

I was under the impression that one should “WIN” before one “strikes” and not the other way around…at least that what we should strive for. That’s also why not every strike that connect is an ippon, because there should be “riai” in the strike (though riai isn’t stated in the rulebook, as pointed out by Neil).

In my current view, the strike should be a “confirmation” of the control you had of your opponent, and not the other way around.

If fact, that was very key part of the barrier for Ishida sensei in the documentary “Kendo’s Gruelling Challenge”. Ishida sensei has trained his instincts and reflex response so well that it was hard for him to pull back and throw only meaning intended attacks that were won before struck…rather than instinctively going for de-kote or something.

If you have your center and yet not attack, that’s the whole hidden lesson of kendo kata. In tachi ippon-me through sanbon-me, the cycle is “kill-disable-control” with the idea being that you eventually learn to control the situation without harm (i.e. the ultimate compassion). I can’t type Japanese here, but the concept is “shin-bu-?-satsu” which literally translates to “divine-martial-not-kill”. The cycle is sorted repeated in the kodachi kata, but I’ve raised some questions on that which is in another thread.

It is my current belief that the dominance of the center IS seme. Like the fear I feel when sensei has his sight locked on me…imagine a target lock on a jet fighter screen…that’s kind of how I feel, except I’m on the “receiving end”. This target-lock makes me doubt myself and forces me to try something stupid which confirms my lack of control of the situation.

Also, I don’t truly understand the distinction you are trying to draw between taking the center vs. taking the initiative. There is a physical aspect of taking the center, then there’s a mental concept of taking the center. Aren’t you taking the center to gain initiative? That’s why I was interested in the western fencing concept of “right of way”.

First, I would argue that you can’t take the initiative without taking the center because the person who has the center and “beat you to the punch” regardless of what you do. Taking the center should put you at a place where the distance and timing is to your advantage.

Second, let’s say that you did take the initiative without taking the center…how do you strike without getting tome-tsukied?

On the whole issue of tapping, I think there’s tapping and then there’s tapping.

If you are tapping just to tap, it’s a waste of every one’s time unless you got the another person annoyed (which works for you, hopefully).

In my view, those who know how to tip-play can be doing any number of things including (not in any particular order):

1. Setting up a rhythm that they can break.
2. Making you focus your eyes on the tip, losing your metsuke.
3. Lining up their tachi-suji.
4. Getting a feel of how you response and the timing of your response.
5. Setting up a pattern that disguise the initial movement of their attack.
6. Distorting your sense of distance by not allowing you to use the shinai as a way of gauging distance.
7. Try to make you over-compensate.
8. Try to make you NOT compensate.

The point is, pardon the pun, I don’t think they are tapping just to tap. If anything, I think the tapping noise is incidental to the resulting shinai contact of people trying to gain the position of the centerline…much like how the stomp is incidental, and not the “end” of fumikomi. IMHO, that’s also why hachi-dan sensei shinai taps “louder” with smaller, sharper movements because they are using hara while I am just using my hands.

[JSchmidt]

"
Second, let’s say that you did take the initiative without taking the center…how do you strike without getting tome-tsukied?"

One thing I'm having great success with at the moment against my peers, is putting pressure towards the kote and then rather slowly move in and take the men.
Despite the opponent controlling the center (I don't contest it), they then react to my movement towards the kote which nicely opens the men for me.
So..I control the opponent without controlling the center.

Jakob

[DCPan]

"
Despite the opponent controlling the center (I don't contest it), they then react to my movement towards the kote which nicely opens the men for me.
So..I control the opponent without controlling the center.


Hi Jakob,

I think we are now getting onto another interesting concept, which is, "what is controlling the center"?

My first kendo sensei in Taiwan likes to take the mu-kamae (A.K.A. otonoshii-no-kamae or hiraki gedan) against me. While in that posture, my shinai can theorectically take the physical center...but.... :rolleyes:

I don't consider having the shinai on the centerline as having taking the center anymore. For example, against someone who is very inexperienced, I can take seigan, but know that I can recover to tome-tsuki the other person if I want to, because I know their footwork is within my ability to compensate for.

I consider taking the center as being able to line up the line that bisects me and is perpendicular to the line of my shoulder aimed at my opponent whereas the corresponding line on my opponent isn't on me. So, I want to find a place where I can face the opponent squarely without allowing him to face me squarely, which would give me the advantage...theorectically.

However, if someone is very slip with their footwork is able to step off your line of attack before you can compensate and track, you can look like you have the centerline when you really don't. So, I'm thinking of the dynamic relationship of being able to maintain the target lock.

So, in the case you've stated, I would say the other guy didn't really have a target lock on you.

FWIW

[Masahiro]

Also, I don’t truly understand the distinction you are trying to draw between taking the center vs. taking the initiative. There is a physical aspect of taking the center, then there’s a mental concept of taking the center. Aren’t you taking the center to gain initiative? That’s why I was interested in the western fencing concept of “right of way”.
The distinction between "center" and taking the "sen" is very small. Yet it is a point that I must make. It is a small but significant detail that people often over look. I brought it up because I don't want the beginners to think "tapping" other person's shinai means you are "feeling" their center, and if you tap their shinai out of the center line, that means you have assumed control of the "center" God knows how many times I've tried harai waza or even suriage on my sensei and learn my lesson.



First, I would argue that you can’t take the initiative without taking the center because the person who has the center and “beat you to the punch” regardless of what you do. Taking the center should put you at a place where the distance and timing is to your advantage.
yes, I agree with you. You can't possibily convince yourself to make a "meaningful" strike if you do not gain control of the "center". And it is only after having acknowledge your own domindance of the center will you be able to cease "sen".


Second, let’s say that you did take the initiative without taking the center…how do you strike without getting tome-tsukied?
yes, my point exactly. I am glad you see my point.



The point is, pardon the pun, I don’t think they are tapping just to tap. If anything, I think the tapping noise is incidental to the resulting shinai contact of people trying to gain the position of the centerline…much like how the stomp is incidental, and not the “end” of fumikomi. IMHO, that’s also why hachi-dan sensei shinai taps “louder” with smaller, sharper movements because they are using hara while I am just using my hands.
It would seem that we think alike. Very good points David.

[Neil Gendzwill]

When I say "I consciously try to do hachidan kendo", I am speaking of the ideals by which they strive for.
My point is, you don't know what's going on "under the sheets" at that level. Emulate some sensei's kamae or waza or whatever is fine - we all learn that way. But understand that there's more going on under the surface that you can't emulate yet, or maybe ever. Set yourself a more realistic goal for your exam - try to move your kendo one level up.


I don't think it is a good idea for everyone especially beginners to concentrate on tapping each other shinai at issoku itto no maai thinking that it is the only way to get a feel of how strong your opponents center is.
It's nearly as wrong for beginners to try to take every point by stepping in and hitting men - you have to go through the steps of complication before you can simplify again.

[Kirin]

To me tapping shinai from isooku itou is just part of communication with your opponent, just like kiai.....to see opponent's strength of tenouchi, or see how he react (during shiai)
If am trying to take center, I would not just tap.

Taking center is important, but it does not always mean you 'seme' effectively.
Selfish "seme".... I thought I had "center" but opponent did not feel my "seme", USELESS.

as Masahiro said "The distinction between "center" and taking the "sen" is very small".
I think theory of 'seme' is
1) Ki
2) taking center with ki (sen)
3) keep center and ask opponent 'what are you going to do?'
4) see reaction of opponent
5) react to opponents action

if opponents step back at #4, tobikomi waza (sen), if try to block, strike the opening (sen), if try to attack, debana waza( sen no sen) or ouji waza (go no sen)...etc


As for beginners, If my kohai are tapping( just tapping during keiko), I would stop and tell them NO.

[Andoru]

Given my relative inexperience in this regard, I have nothing to add. All I want to say is that I really enjoy this thread - there are heaps of good pointers!

[Hai_hai]

The tapping and pressing of shinai is not always done. I will say that my sensei stresses gaining center and feeling that you have center all throughout drills during practice.
However, when both kendoka are at the same level and both are centered. Then, there's this stalement. Where are the openings? You can press or tap to detect possibilities of creating openings.

This equalness is more apparent with fellow students who started at the same time as yourself and they are learning, practicing and applying the same things in practice as you. And so, with both kendoka at equal skill and speed levels, you start tapping and pressing to implement whatever strategy you have in mind.
You don't have to tap or press. You can sense you have center and just attack men. Unless you both feel you have center and you both attack men and you end up with simultaneous attacks. Kendo almost feels futile.

[OSatsu Jin]

I am new to Kendo, but alot more advanced in Aikido..so the idea of maintaining your center isn't new, but I don't understand why you would bat each others shinai back and forth to try and take their center...it's contradictory to my aikido. Using force against force. I would think you would have the advantage and maintain your center by moving with the tap from your opponent instead of pressing back of forcing their shinai aside. For example....you are both in chudan and your opponent bats your shinai to your right....step with your left foot slightly and in a circular pattern to the the left as you feel his shinai press against yours....you maintian center and posture and he looses his by putting energy into the tap to move your shinai....but instead of him feeling pressure back from you to maintain your center...you lure him into motion step around and to the side (also moving shinai in a circular down up motion) and have opened him up for attack...you have kote and men targets available then.

I admit since I have not tried it in kendo I am not sure how it would work...though we practice Jyodo like this.


John

[Neil Gendzwill]

If your opponent is clumsily swatting your shinai back and forth you can try something like that. It's usually simpler just to drop the tip down and then move straight in as he overshoots and loses centre. But it's also possible to use more subtle tip movements than that. My sensei talks about putting your ki into the kensen, so that it is a living thing. This kind of action we call "tip fighting" and it's more than just batting the tips around.

[Old Warrior]

"it's contradictory to my aikido"

Kendo is not aikido, it is much more aggressive in its philosohy. The whole purpose of what you learn is to cut the opponent, first, on a target area. Avoiding or directing force elsewhere is only one possible way of getting to the end - a clean cut to a target area. The mental approach is completely different to that of an unarmed self defense art, unless you study a particularly hard style.

[not-I]

I just noticed this thread and have read through it.

Only wanted to say that i found it extremely thoughtful and helpful, especially the contributions by Kirin and Neil.

If the option's still available, i'm giving it five stars.

[Rick Danger]

Indeed very instructive.
I have started doing jigeiko for a couple of months now and I have been using some "tip-pressure" to some moderate success. All my partners are of the same level as me, so sometimes I can get away with slowly pushing their tip off the centre and taking their kote. Of course, this doesn't work with my sensei :ko: he generally doesn't allow our tips to touch.

[LNGUYEN]

Right now, I am nikkiyu and I don't worry about tip pressure or any other things, as my Sensei told me. Before Shodan, I just have to develope attacking and forget about timing, creating the open, or being hit. He told me just attack and attack and attack with Ki Ken Tai ichi. Is that only happening at my dojo or very much worldwide? Since some member in here only starting gikeiko for a few months and talking about tip pressure so I ask.

[OSatsu Jin]

"it's contradictory to my aikido"

Kendo is not aikido, it is much more aggressive in its philosohy. The whole purpose of what you learn is to cut the opponent, first, on a target area. Avoiding or directing force elsewhere is only one possible way of getting to the end - a clean cut to a target area. The mental approach is completely different to that of an unarmed self defense art, unless you study a particularly hard style.It wasn't my intent to imply that kendo and aikido were the same...I agree they aren't, but, I believe that you can effectively imploy aikido principles into kendo or practically any martial art or form of movement to be more broad.
We do so in Jyodo at my dojo. You can't study Jyodo at my school without being at least a gokyu in aikido (green belt). The premiss is that you should have a basic understanding of movement and redirecting/receiving energy.

Aikido does howerver have a strong foundation in sword philosophy. Usheiba was well versed in the swords arts. Granted, you have to play by the "kendo" rules to be good at kendo....but I see no reason why you cannot incorporate some of the ideology that aikido teaches and still be a good or even great kendoist.

The linearity of kendo is what contradicts my foundation of dealing with an attack...and yes...I do have some difficulties in adjusting. Does it mean that I am wrong....maybe....but it doesn't mean I'm not either.

My point was that tapping or worse pushing of the shinai tips to take your opponents center is a hard pill for me to swallow...if someone wants to push my shinai aside....fine....I'll just move around with them to keep my center...if I can. Since I am new to kendo I have limited experience in shiai. I see me being more circular during shiai than back/forth or side/side.

Did that make sence?...LOL

John

[Old Warrior]

"The linearity of kendo is what contradicts my foundation of dealing with an attack...and yes...I do have some difficulties in adjusting. Does it mean that I am wrong....maybe....but it doesn't mean I'm not either.

My point was that tapping or worse pushing of the shinai tips to take your opponents center is a hard pill for me to swallow...if someone wants to push my shinai aside....fine....I'll just move around with them to keep my center...if I can. Since I am new to kendo I have limited experience in shiai. I see me being more circular during shiai than back/forth or side/side."

I think you need to keep an open mind and just accept what you are taught - for a long while. Kendo has a particular mindset that is different from other disciplines. I trained in shotokan karate and as an epee fencer for decades. While I have an advantage, in that I understand the concepts of distance and timing and I have a fair sense of feeling my opponents movements - kendo is not like anything I have done before. While I ask a lot questions on this forum - I show up for class and do what I am told as best as I can.

[SOLDIER]

iam new to kendo too. but i do understand that attacking straight on is alot harder than misaligning your center and attacking...also when you go straight in and take the center and get big men , it is beautiful kendo..i guess it is difficult at first ..my troubles in kendo before bogu were , zanshin , and ki-ken ta ichi....the rythm of kendo and the footwork came natural..as i like to dance ...it was not hard for the timing of the footwork but the distance felt funny..all in all it will pass...and when you go straight in and get men and go through and turn , holding zanshin with loud kiai ----there will be no doubt...flags will rise....

[OSatsu Jin]

[QUOTE=Old Warrior
I think you need to keep an open mind and just accept what you are taught - for a long while. Kendo has a particular mindset that is different from other disciplines. [/QUOTE]
Oh I do....I do exactly as I'm told to the best of my abilities...I just see other "options" that might be useful I guess.

John

[Old Warrior]

"Oh I do....I do exactly as I'm told to the best of my abilities...I just see other "options" that might be useful I guess."

I am sure you do. But, it is sometimes interesting to learn what some students are thinking. On Thursday, a student at least six levels below me, who I could hit at will, told me - he was trying very hard to watch my breathing rhythm, because he knew that when I exhaled completely he would have an advantage if he attacked. All I could say was that he needed to practice all the basics and, some day, he might rise to the level where he could take advantage of such knowledge, but it wouldn't be for a long time.

I was polite, but not impressed. Here was a 25-30 year old man trying to use his intellect to allow him to rise above his minimal skill, when what is required is just practice and time. I can see now (it escaped me at first), that at the beginning, thinking too much doesn't help.

[Masahiro]

But, it is sometimes interesting to learn what some students are thinking. On Thursday, a student at least six levels below me, who I could hit at will, told me - he was trying very hard to watch my breathing rhythm, because he knew that when I exhaled completely he would have an advantage if he attacked. All I could say was that he needed to practice all the basics and, some day, he might rise to the level where he could take advantage of such knowledge, but it wouldn't be for a long time.
hahahahahahahahahaha, that's a good one.


I can see now (it escaped me at first), that at the beginning, thinking too much doesn't help.
how true!

[BrainFart]

The first thing i learned from keno is clear big men and most of time i am studying it.

I see lots of kendoists differentiate the promotion kendo, shiai kendo, and jikeiko kendo. Are they all different?

There are some sort of steps or points we need to think.

0. kiai
1. Good judan no kamae posture all the time
2. attacking with ki ken tai ichi
3. Clear big Men
4. Clean Foot work
5. attacking with seme
5. Taking a sen all the time.(at least mentally)
6. chudan fighting to take advantage of the opponent's suki. (so called "tapping")

It is very unreasonable for me to think about something very advanced skills before not accomodating basic skills.

To me without thoroughly studying about basic skills(at least it should be first priority all the time when we are practicing), all the difficult or "tricky" waza does not make sense.

My nanadan sensei keep correcting my fundamental men strike.
he taught me about my big men skill with lots of detail for a while.

here is the lists i wrote down.

1. when i strike the men, right shoulder goes slightly beyond.
2. after striking not enough to loose my shoulder.
3. while jikeiko, every footwork should be ready to big men
4. attacking with seme, while one opens up suki, go to tzuki to build strong ken-sen.
5. when i am striking the men, my left arm should go up and down very quickly.
6. arm and foot should be coordinated
7. attacking with 100% wholly.
8. atter attacking, check the opponents (this derives janshin)
...etc

I believe only a few at this forum should consider that advaced skills IF HE IS REALLY mastered some important kihon flawlessly. Otherwise, I think one's kendo would not develop way he can accomplish quickly.

(No offense intended)