Correct Methods?

[Swissv2]

I have recently started kendo but I am having a few problems about my training.

Just to give a quick overview of our dojo's situation.
Our dojo lost our only kendo sensei after only one year of instruction, but kendo practice was continued due to a few people (10-15) maintaining interest in it. I joined after the sensei left. What is left is a collection of students with only the basics down. The sensei that left transferred instruction rights to one of the senior students who had just as much experience as the rest of the class.

I will try to keep my questions as brief as possible though I have a bit to talk about. I will break down the steps.

1. What is the correct position for raising the shinai for suburi?

The way I was taught was to bring my arms all the way over my head, shinai way up in the air, elbows out, trying to expose the face as much as possible.
2. What is the correct method for stepping for suburi?

The way I was taught (right handed) was to push with the left foot and take a medium step foward with the right foot while on the up swing, and finish that step on the down swing . The left foot does not come foward but stays still. After the swing is done we will slide our right foot back to position.
3. What is the proper distance for the reciever to stand in uchikomi?

the way I was taught was first hold the shinai horizontal with two hands (one on the Tsuka and one on the tip of the shinai) head height in my hands with the string facing one self. I will then step way far back so that the striker can practice his/her hit lunge. To strike the shinai of the receiver, the person will do the same technique as the suburi where we would raise the shinai way over the head, face exposed, elbows out, and then make a big step foward with the right foot. Our left foot would not move foward, only push us foward.
To sum up my situation I am feeling a little ackward right now, and feel like I am reaching for an item on a top shelf and just can't reach it. Being that I am just a newcomer I refrain from making suggestions or comments due to the fact that I just started, so what should I know?!

If the teacher is correct in these techniques, I suppose I will try to learn it to the best of my ability. But if she is wrong on a few points, how will I approach her about this? She is senior to me, and I am hoping that my technique is correct before I will have to end up "breaking a bad habit"

Sorry for the long post, I will stop here. Thank you.

[taganahan]

here's my own opion, which i do and practice at my dojo.

for beginners, we don't practice lunging yet because lunging is not part of the basics. we practice big swings, which is the basic, so that we can get used to it. the people who practice lunging are those people who already wears a bogu for 2 months.

about the footwork. i'm not so sure why you don't move your left foot. if you're not moving your left foot, it looks like that your doing a split. shouldn't you push with your left. remember, right foot first then left not right foot first then no left.

people can add up on this and correct my post if it's not that accurate enough.

[Swissv2]

Taganahan, I too feel one should move their left foot. But, these techniques are what I was taught, so I do as I am told or I get a bit of flack from the instructor.

Again I feel ackward. There are large mirrors in the dojo and I am constantly checking to see if it looks correct and it doesn't. Though the instructor only has about one years experience more than me our Kendo class only meets once a week.

Hopefully there will be more responses.

[Swissv2]

Hopefully someone in these forums knows how to do Kendo

(this reply was meant to be a joke. If you are offended, dont be)

[Nishi]

There lots of different suburi drills. But here is my 2 cents (FWIW).

Suburi should be big and spirited, the movements should be exaggerated for both stretching purposes and development of clean form, the spirit should be vigorous yet controlled.

The method of ashi-sabaki (footwork) used in basic suburi is usually called okuri-ashi (or suri-ashi) this means sliding-foot. From kamae you slide your right foot forward while rasing the shinai above your head, the cut, or down swing, is in complete sync with your left foot as it is pulled forward, resulting in your feet ending up in starting position, as they began. Moving backwards, your up swing is done as the left foot slides backward, and you cut down as the right foot slides back, ending again as they started.

This is basic footwork for O’suburi or jogai suburi and basic shomen-suburi. The ashi-sabaki you describe sounds like an incomplete lunge. I have only seen this style of footwork when we break down men-cuts into a lunging men-cut to build strength, but that would be very different from basic suburi.

Hope some of that helped.

[Swissv2]

Thx Nishi that helped a lot. I have a question: If we haven't practiced lunges yet (we are only doing the basics) how far away should the reciever be max for uchikomi? Remember we are only doing the basic steps.

[Shazzanzzz]

To add to Nishi's post:

The shinai should be swung over head for muscle development, stretching purposes, but, your hands should not loosen as the result of the swing. How you grip your shinai should be tightest grip with pinky, then less with the fourthe finger, even less with the middle finger, and your index finger shouldn't be tight at all, but, don't point it outwards either. This is for both the left and right hand. Some people release their right hand to much, resulting in uncentered swings. The result of this kind of grip will be that your elbows will not point outward too much that it'll be bad for your swing. One indication of your elbows pointing too out would be if your tsuba is close to hitting you on the head. Your swing should be centered, so, practice in front of a mirror is always good.

The timing of the swing and footwork is VERY IMPORTANT, so, you should pay a lot of attention to it, make sure they are perfectly in sync with each other, as this will develop your ki ten tai ich and footwork timing for counter attack wazas.

The suburi you described, i've seen doone too, but, only for stomping step practice purposes. Many senseis would not approve of such practice, though, since it would neglect the bringing up of the left foot, which is where the explosiveness of kendo come from. Also, it would not encourage the movement of the body center instead of your foot for moving.

As for hitting practice with a partner, how i've been taught is that, for no lunging footwork, you first stand with shinai tip to tip, then the shidachi move in one step then take a big step for the strike and run through for at least 5 steps, quick steps and turn around.

I think you guys should maybe visit another dojo once in a while, or request a sensei to come help you once in a while if available. I think if you guys do that, the sensei'll probably change a lot of the things you do right now, but, it'll be for the better.

[Hai_hai]

Hopefully someone in these forums knows how to do Kendo

(this reply was meant to be a joke. If you are offended, dont be)
Ha ha. All I know is, if you look good, that's all that counts.

[Nishi]

Thx Nishi that helped a lot. I have a question: If we haven't practiced lunges yet (we are only doing the basics) how far away should the reciever be max for uchikomi? Remember we are only doing the basic steps.

10 dojo, 10 different answers, but heres mine....

There are two distances for beginners to be concerned with. To'ma'ai is the name for the distance where you and your partner face each other in chudan but there is a small space of a few inches that clearly seperates the shinai from each other. This is where you kiai before your attack.
After your kiai you make a small advance forward into Issoku itto-no-maai, your partner should remain still. Issoku itto-no-maai is the distance where your shinai have crossed tips, 1 to 3 inches for uchikomi. For uchikomi-geiko this a healthy distance to attack, it develops good reach with fumikomi and big form.
Cuts should be big and spirited, and completed by passing your partner (he/she should move for you) while holding your kiai until you turn and make eye contact.
I pass my opponent with three/four steps after a strike this seems to give me a safe distance to regroup, or a good distance to re-attack. As its only uchikomi, I still try to train myself as if my partner was right behind me when I turn, so I turn in preperation, still holding kiai ready to attack within the same breath.

[taganahan]

Again I feel ackward. There are large mirrors in the dojo and I am constantly checking to see if it looks correct and it doesn't. Though the instructor only has about one years experience more than me our Kendo class only meets once a week.

you shouldn't really mind looking at the mirror. musashi said in his book that you should just do what you do and not think of it. he described something about walking. he described that when you walk you never really think about your every step but you just do what you know what walking is cause when you start thinking about those steps you take when walking, you might mess up.

hope that helped a bit about the mirror problem.

~taganahan

[Hattori Hanzo]

Suburi in my DoJo is like this

1. Always O'waza, arms go way back.

2. Sliding step imagine a box you want to stay in that box don't close in on the circle or move further back.

3. Posture, back straight looking straight forward.

4. Stay in synch with everybody else.

from my view Suburi is about three things

1. Developing proper form for your waza.

2. Developing strength

3. Killing the achilles tendons on beginners hehehe

[Swissv2]

ahh, thank you everyone. I will keep these things in mind. Should a beginner practice suburi at home once he/she gets the form down correct?

[bginop]

dear swissv2;

Reading your post made me think of one thing or one "saying" Alot of other people kinda covered it, but i feel i should throw in my two cents. I think one person posted 10 different dojos, 10 different ways which is very true. There is no "right way" to do kendo, but there definitly is a wronge way to do kendo. So i guess what i am saying is, sure people can give advice to you, but i think your dojo will develop its "own" right way.

And to reply to your suburi question, i think you should do suburi at home but not untill you have been doing kendo for atleast a month. So this way you do not develope any bad habits.

Hmmmm............. Dojo in reno eh? Well i know i am supposed to head up that area sometime this year (las vegas). I wonder if i head up that way swissv2, can i come to you dojo?

[bginop]

what would yoda be like in kendo, well since his swordsmen ship is kendo (or eastern fencing) i think he does quite well.

[taganahan]

las vegas? are you guys going to that tournament cause i've heard there's a tournament there?

have you not seen yoda do 360 while in mid air? i think that was on attack of the clones.

~taganahan

[Swissv2]

Yoda is my hero :D

Bginop you will be able to find us at
http://www.highsierrajujitsu.com here in reno.

Its nicely located very close to interstate 80 so its very easy to find. If you need any further directions just ask.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1. What is the correct position for raising the shinai for suburi?
Your left fist should be at least overhead. As a drill to get used to swinging big, some people hit the butt with the shinai. I don't like this one because it encourages people to straighten their left arm at the top too much and loosen the grip. Ideally, both hands should be at the same level at the top, and both elbows bent equally. As to how much elbow bend, I discuss it here (
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50023#post50023).
2. What is the correct method for stepping for suburi?
As others have pointed out, raise with the right foot, cut with the left while going forwards, raise with the left, cut with the right going backwards. Make sure you're sliding and that the motion is driven by the back foot. So when you are moving forward, drive forward with the left rather than step with the right. When moving back, drive with the right rather than stepping with the left. Make sure to stay on the balls of your feet. Especially when going back, many people drag their right foot on the heel. This is a sure sign that you are stepping back with the left rather than driving back with the right.
3. What is the proper distance for the reciever to stand in
Case by case. If you are at the stage where you are doing uchikomi without fumikomi (the big stomp) then he will be slightly closer than with fumikomi. Each person also has a different range. If you are doing uchikomi though your step should be considerably wider than with normal suburi. In fact, you should make it as wide as possible.

As far as how motodachi holds the shinai, you can either hold it overhead with two hands, or hold it sticking out to the right with one hand. If the latter, make sure you let your wrist break just after contact so that the shinai swings out of the way and the attacker can go through. If the former, make sure you stay steady until after the attacker has hit (don't chicken out), then step slightly to the side with either foot and pivot 90 degrees to allow the attacker to pass. In no case should the attacker be forced to change his original direction of attack to avoid you - they should be going straight as possible. If you don't get out of the way, they should run straight into you.

Hope that was helpful.

[akumalkenshi]

there are suburi men, and suburi kote. they only differ in the height of the imaginary point of impact.

the way we practice them is with a large swing, that hits your buttocks on the way back. taking care that the ankle of the back foot (left) remains perpendicular to your direction of travel as you swing down.

bringing the left foot in afterwards is very important, otherwise you cannot apply semme ( pshicological & phisical pressure on opponent)

usually suburi is a warm up exercise, other dojos practice yogen furi, in which the swing comes much lower than kote, almost to gedan position ( kisaki points at opponent's leg).

hope that this helps

[Swissv2]

thank you all. I appreciate it!

my concern is that we dont have a sensei living around here that can teach kendo, but more than 15 people that come to class, and 5-6 people that have bogu.

The instructor that is teaching me now has had only one years experience learning from a 3rd Dan that came straight from Japan. She is gone now, but put our new instructor in charge. We do what we can, but I hope to learn the correct techniques and the instructor can watch me to see how I am doing.