nito vs nito?

[munenmuso]

Just curious. Have you ever seen two swordsmen cancelling each other out using nito kendo.Both men using two swords, what happens next?Here we have "arnis de escrima" where two men each using two hardwood sticks against one another and the action is always spectacular.How about in kendo?Just asking......

[alexpollijr]

Hey Man

I can't fully understand what you said but I've never seen a nito vs nito shiai. That'd be pretty messy I think, with shinai everywhere.

[Hongsermeier]

I have a friend who practices escrima. We've talked about the similarities to nito. Big difference is in escrima, both "swords" are the same length, making it much easier to use both offensively. I've never seen nito vs nito, but think it would be interesting.

[Tato]

I think it's an excelent question.

Can any nito player give us a help here? Did them ever do shiai against other nito?

By the way, how many among you ever had shiai o jigeiko against some doing nito?

Rei

[GMason]

Hi everyone,

With regards to Shiai/keiko against Nito. I have had the pleasure (I think that is the right word) to practice against Nito a couple of times>

Firstly it makes a big difference if you are practicing against someone who actually knows what they are doing. Aposed to someone who has just picked up two shinia's and thought to themselves I think I will have a go at Nito (Which I think most people will be guilty of at some point - myself included - I didn't try it for long as my arms gave out).

The person I practiced with was very good (Steve Harwood - the author of the Breathing Articles in KW), I believe he practiced nito in Japan for quite a while.

It is alot different to fencing against chudan. Although you have the target of Kote like you do when fencing against Jodan you obivously also have to think about the other hand of the Kendoka, as he can cut you with the other shinai. Although as in another thread not sure if they would score in Shiai. This gives you quite a feeling of insecurity and uncertainty as you can imagine.

I've been told one of the best ways to combat nito is Nidan or Sandan waza & to show good strong spirit when attacking.

Which I suppose can be said about all Kendo really.

Just a tip for something to watch out for. As you cut men, be carefull you don't get Tsuki'ed with the smaller of the two shinai. Which is a horrible feeling to say the least.

Cheers

Gareth Mason
Do Shin Ken Yu Kai
www.doshinkenyukai-kendo.org.uk

[munenmuso]

Thanks guy's for all your comments.But any one out there who actually saw two kendoka using two swords at once.I've seen Itto kendo vs Itto kendo, itto vs nito, but never saw nito vs nito. It must be very difficult to score with all those shinai flying around.

[ant_pickering]

Howdy I don't Claim to be any expert on Nito but I do practice Gaukte-Nito (sorry about the spelling on that one my Nihon-Go is non exsistent) and have fought with it in shiai after learning it from Toda Sensei when he was out here Melbourne. I have never fought in shiai with Nito V Nito but I have done Gi-Keiko with the other guy in the dojo I train at who does Nito. This was Nito V Nito and yes it was pretty messy but we where able to score a few points on one and other in the Gi-Keiko. Weather the the fact Nito V Nito is pretty messy or just the lack of skill of the two practitioners (both being fairly new to Nito) I don't know. To be honest the hardest people to fight from my limited experience are good Jodan Players when you are in Nito. It easy to block but very difficult to do good positive scoring Nito Kendo on them.

Hope this helps.

[KATSUJIN]

hhmmmmm.....nito vs nito......must get chance to watch a match like that......unfortunately i can't because nobody in singapore practises nito at the moment.....

[2muchryt]

hoy pare,
i have seen two nito players. as in regular kendo, it is exciting. esp if the players are equal level. it is not necessarily "shanai's everywhere". kendo, as you know is a game of strategy, so a lot of the time they're just staring at each other smiling, as if saying "oh!, your doing that thing,,," it is not as non stop as arnis de escrima.
although there some similarities between arnis de escrima and escrima de japones (kendo), there are some fundamental differences. hitting vs. cutting. isn't arnis is basically stick fighting (there is no cutting edge represented on pilipino escrima sticks) with the goal being multiple "hits" against an opponent to disable/kill him? where as kendo, even though we use a stick to fence, it has a designated side that represents the cutting edge of a sword. and the goal is to kill via a telling "cut" with one strike. i understand that arnis de escrima teaches movement principles that can be useful with empty hand or weapons.
when i was in the P.I., i was amazed at how you could'nt throw a pebble in.

__________________
dreaming of boracay

[Hongsermeier]

2muchryt...your right about escrima. If you've seen it done correctly, imagine how dangerous it would be with two small swords. I think it's mostly taught as self defense.

[munenmuso]

2muchryt,pare, your perception about arnis is correct, but in the olden days those sticks were represented by shorter swords and as a regular curriculum here, they were replaced by sticks to accomodate the populace and to avoid further harm against your opponent. Just for fun we even fitted a kendo player against an arnis player and guess what.......

[2muchryt]

__________________________________________________ ________
quote,
"Just for fun we even fitted a kendo player against an arnis player and guess what......."

from what i have seen in any cross style match up, it is almost always the person with more experience in his style that prevails. styles dont win, people do. what level was the escrima player ? what level was the kendoist? did the
kendoist have experience in fighting cross styles ?, jodan?, nito, naginata, multiple players?
did he change/adapt his kamae, distance, body movement, footwork?
did he employ the competive style of japanese/korean high school students of combinations, multiple hits, and multiple hit combinations? did he use strategy to counter a circular movement and an inside fighting style?
or did he just charge in with a single men strike and stop in tsubazerai
(escrima sticks dont have tsuba's) only to get pummeled.
how good is his tsuki?, yoko men?

still, even though arnis de escrima was at one time used with short swords, knives, machettes, bali song, etc. there is a skill that is just cutting. in doing tameshigiri with a razor sharp katana, one realizes that cutting things with a sword is not easy. even kendo at times doesn't teach enough about cutting. in arnis de escrima i have never heard anyone say "o that was not a cut that was just a hit". the fact that there is no disignated cutting edge on an arnis escrima stick reveals that the overall concept is that any strike that connects with the opponent is to be considered a cut. in reality such would not be the case. hits are hits and cuts are cuts.
that is not to say a broken nose or broken arm is ineffective.
its just that the cutting edge of a sword is very very thin. and all kind of factors determine its sucess. the accuracy involved takes years. angle of blade, speed of tip, push or pull at moment of impact, to name just a few. in arnis de escrima with rattan sticks, they hit with all sides of the sticks, at random angles, with no cutting motion.
my question is how can these be considered cuts?

i heard a story about when the japanese occupied the phillipines.
an japanese officer was giving a demonstration on how powerful
the mighty japanese katana was to some of the local pinoys who
were working to clear a field. holding the katana with both hands the
japanese officer raised his katana in jodan and chopped a tree down
in one strike. one of the local pinoy workers raised his hand and said,
"like this boss?" the worker of slight build grabbed his machette and
effortlessly chopped an identical tree down with a machette in one strike
with one hand. they had been doing that since they were kids.

munenmuso,
please go on,,, what happened?

[stinkyKote]

question: If you were a nito player and you dropped your shoto during shiai, would the referees stop the match? or could you continue with just one?

[hyouriittai]

i heard a story about when the japanese occupied the phillipines.
an japanese officer was giving a demonstration on how powerful
the mighty japanese katana was to some of the local pinoys who
were working to clear a field. holding the katana with both hands the
japanese officer raised his katana in jodan and chopped a tree down
in one strike. one of the local pinoy workers raised his hand and said,
"like this boss?" the worker of slight build grabbed his machette and
effortlessly chopped an identical tree down with a machette in one strike
with one hand. they had been doing that since they were kids.

munenmuso,
please go on,,, what happened?

Heh, that story's great. However, from what I understand, Arnis de escrima is a modern invention that sprouted off of kali, which, again, from my understanding, was the combatative art involving the various weapons of Moroland. Escrima, I think (but correct me if I'm blatantly wrong) was an adaptation of Kali bladeplay developed during Magellan's occuptaion, due to the disarming of the native people. Then again, I hear King Lapulapu busted Magellan's chops using a kris or a sundang.

"Who killed Magellan?"
"Lapulapu."
"Then who killed Lapulapu?"
"The fishermen."

Heh, doesn't seem like much of a joke unless you're a Pinoy.

[Craig Jones]

Just curious. Have you ever seen two swordsmen cancelling each other out using nito kendo.Both men using two swords, what happens next?Here we have "arnis de escrima" where two men each using two hardwood sticks against one another and the action is always spectacular.How about in kendo?Just asking......

I have seen it once before, but i would neither call what they were doing kendo nor would I call the style they did nito, but they did use shoto and daito. When something called the Raging Windmill technique gets involved it stops being kendo...

[Crash]

I have seen Nito v Nito before in my dojo. Nakauchi Sensei against another ranked opponent. (Shall remain nameless, but he is very skilled) Action was fast with bursts of violent action. At one point Nakauchi Sensei made his opponent drop his Shoto 3 times in a row with ultra powerful kote blasts. The opponent knew after the first kote what Nakauchi Sensei was trying to do. But he was powerless to stop the next two. It went BAM, drop, BAM, drop, BAM, drop. It was pretty freaky.

[ninjamster15]

nito vs nito....i guess it comes down to the skill of each opponent and the length of the weapons they're using. Generally, one sword is used to defend, the other is used to attack...but with two nito users...my guess would be they would use both swords either offensively or defensively, to try to overwhelm their opponent/defend from constant attacks. Either way, its all up to the skill of the users.

[Hai_hai]

i guess it comes down to the skill of each opponent and the length of the weapons they're using.
In nito vs. nito, both players have the same length weapon. If you are guessing, then you don't know what you are talking about.

[ninjamster15]

In nito vs. nito, both players have the same length weapon. If you are guessing, then you don't know what you are talking about.
Sorry, i wasn't refering to two shiinas. I was refering to real life, actual swords. There are dozens of types of swords, all of which are different lenghts. Some people prefer to use longer swords, some prefer short swords, some use both. Either way, range plays a huge impact; even a few inchs difference between blades can affect the outcome of a fight

[Hai_hai]

You don't know kendo. Nito is the subject at hand, not real swords fighting. You are on my black list.

[Gregory]

You don't know kendo. Nito is the subject at hand, not real swords fighting. You are on my black list.


YAY!!!!!!!!

[kuzu70]

nito vs nito would be a long, long match. loooong match.

[JoonShik]

I have seen a couple of picutres of nito vs nito, but I believe it was kenjustu (sp?), the site was in spanish, luckly, I learned some spanish that same year.