Do you know who your sensei's sensei was?

[ben]

Someone (I can't remember who) once lamented how few students of budo knew who their teacher's teacher was.

Do you know? Who was it? How far back can you go?

I must admit I'm a little hazy about mine. Nagae Sumitaka sensei was my first teacher (I have trained under many eminent sensei since). And I'm pretty sure that his teacher was Nakakura Kiyoshi sensei (please correct me if I'm wrong Melbourne people). But back past Nakakura I don't know. Which is pretty poor since he's such a renowned sensei.

So I'm a case in point. A poor kendoka with no respect for tradition... :(

b ;)

[mystic_kendoka]

nakakura sensei??
http://www.abkf.be/images/Nakakura/Nakakura1.jpg
him?
wow..

[not-I]

Interesting question, Ben.

In many "Ways," from iaido to kyudo to chado and shodo, knowing your teacher's lineage is considered important. It helps you realize you are practicing in a long tradition. In theory, i can trace my Zen teacher's lineage back to Buddha Shakyamuni, though it gets very hazy before the 16th century. :wink:

For some reason, we don't seem overly concerned with it in kendo, especially in the west. I was always interested, but shy of just going up to sensei and asking him.

But last Saturday after practice, he was reading a Japanese book that a couple of us asked to see. He called it a "kendo how-to" book and told us it featured an article by his hachidan master. There was a picture of him, but i didn't catch the name. I think the other guy did though (he reads Japanese).

Your post has inspired me to follow up and find out. Thanks.

[Hongsermeier]

I do not know what his name is, but I do know where he is from and have trained some with him myself. The only reason I do know this is he was also me wifes sensei. Whenever I go to Japan I try to get too practice.

[Curtis]

nakakura sensei??
http://www.abkf.be/images/Nakakura/Nakakura1.jpg
him?
wow..I should dig out my pictures of Nakakura Sensei from his stay at my house. He and his wife came to Seattle in 1991 after the WKC in Toronto. He was really something.

I was fortunate enough to stay at his home in 1984 and 1993. He was an absolute riot, really funny. I have the honor of having a kakemono, reading Butoku, Martial Virtue hanging in my home dojo which he did for me in 1993.

In 1984 he took me to the Imperial Palace Police Dojo for practice. That was quite an experience.

Unfortunately his son who was my good friend passed away only a few months later of cancer after after Nakakura Sensei passed away.

My first teacher for the most part was my older brother. We then went out to the other dojo for instruction, which at that time amounted to two other dojo.

[Hinokuni]

I trained for some time in Kumamoto. When I went to the Kumamoto budokan they had the lineage on the wall.

It went from present day teachers, some of whom I knew, all the way back to Musashi and his sempai.

But, frankly, who cares?

Yes, I have respect for all those people who have kept kendo alive through the centuries until even I can practice it. Their wisdom helps me everyday.

But, no, I don't think it's helpful to know who my teacher's teacher is. The best way I can show respect is to train harder, not worship the memory of people who died centuries before I was born. Anything else seems somehow vainglorious.

[Tenjo]

Shojon Takamoro (deceased)- 71
l
Nakumura Tomoe (deceased)- 78
l
Sho Takamoro (deceased)- 75
l
Mikishi Asano (deceased)- 64
l
Earl Tachibana (deceased)- 52
l
Gunji Takeo (deceased)- 43
l
Mike Hino (present)- 50
l
Shodo Takamoro (Present)- 55
l
Omune Takanagi (Present) 48
l
Ono Takanagi (present)- 63
l
?????

[not-I]

I don't think it's helpful to know who my teacher's teacher is. The best way I can show respect is to train harder, not worship the memory of people who died centuries before I was born. Anything else seems somehow vainglorious.
It would only be vainglorious if you went around saying "My sensei's sensei could kick your sensei's sensei's ass."

While it's not directly helpful to your practice, knowing that you're part of a tradition can help you realize that kendo is not just fun-and-games.

[sminki]

I don't think there's as much emphasis put on this in kendo (this is my impression of things) due to the fact that one typically learns from more than one teacher. I think that while it used to be more of an issue in prewar kendo, I've read that since Mochida sensei took over the Noma dojo in Tokyo, he opened doors to all kenshi to train there regardless of ryuha, etc.

These days, (in Japan or Korea) one has a teacher during childhood and to the extent that he/she continues kendo, has another teacher or a coach in junior high, another in senior high, another in college, and so forth. It would be quite a feat to keep track of teacher's teachers of all these teachers. So unlike iaido, in which the question of a ryuha is an important issue, in kendo (in my opinion) people don't see it as relevant.

[Karaken]

I don't think there's as much emphasis put on this in kendo (this is my impression of things) due to the fact that one typically learns from more than one teacher. I think that while it used to be more of an issue in prewar kendo, I've read that since Mochida sensei took over the Noma dojo in Tokyo, he opened doors to all kenshi to train there regardless of ryuha, etc.

These days, (in Japan or Korea) one has a teacher during childhood and to the extent that he/she continues kendo, has another teacher or a coach in junior high, another in senior high, another in college, and so forth. It would be quite a feat to keep track of teacher's teachers of all these teachers. So unlike iaido, in which the question of a ryuha is an important issue, in kendo (in my opinion) people don't see it as relevant.
SMINKI, don't knwo what happened to PM (don't work ) but OW says they have now bigger Dojang in the same mall and we should visit :-)

[ben]

Yes Mystic Kendoka, THAT Nakakura sensei!

Wow, Curtis sensei! You knew him pretty well. I only got to train against him once in 1990. Would you know then who his teacher(s) was? I only know that he did Aikido for a while with Ueshiba sensei, not who he learned kendo from.

b

[sminki]

Karaken,

Due to work, etc. I have not been able to go to my dojo for over 5 months. Today was my first day back. Phew, was that tough...

Would love to visit the new place in the same mall. I had heard that they were going to move there. I think I've seen the pictures on SungMoo website.

BTW, master Seong is visiting NYCKC this Saturday if you're interested.

[Curtis]

Yes Mystic Kendoka, THAT Nakakura sensei!

Wow, Curtis sensei! You knew him pretty well. I only got to train against him once in 1990. Would you know then who his teacher(s) was? I only know that he did Aikido for a while with Ueshiba sensei, not who he learned kendo from.

bHmm, I cannot remember now. I have a video that he gave me about him in Japanese. I will have to get it out and watch it again.

When he stayed here at my house we had a party and he told everyone all about his life including his aikido. I need to ask Dick A. about it as he heard every word.

The first time I got to practice with him I was a sandan and I never hit him once. I think he was 72 at the time. I may as well have been holding the shinai backwards because that is how it felt anyway. What a lesson that was.

When he was here he was teasing me about having a 10 point match against him. If I got even one point then I got to keep my 4 dan certificate. Needless to say I declined.

I have the pictures put away somewhere.

[Blue Bogu]

My Sensei is Uchida Sensei and West Sensei. I dont know West Senseis sensei but I know Uchida Senseis sensei is Ota Sensei. Thats a lot of Senseis

[mystic_kendoka]

its not that easy for me..

i have 2 senseis, and 2 sub-senseis.. and all of them have 2 or 3 senseis themselves.. so its very hard to find a definite lineage as such..

[Hinokuni]

It would only be vainglorious if you went around saying "My sensei's sensei could kick your sensei's sensei's ass."

While it's not directly helpful to your practice, knowing that you're part of a tradition can help you realize that kendo is not just fun-and-games.
Without wishing to pick a fight...

I think people do try and get kudos because their teacher is, 'a hachidan hanshi who, you know, trained with the riot police and he once...blah blah blah'. So I stand by what I said.

Regarding your second point, the English aristocracy is part of a tradition, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to take it seriously;)

[not-I]

Without wishing to pick a fight...
No worries. :calm:

Boastful name-dropping is silly, i agree.

I also agree that the best way to honor your teacher and teacher's teachers is to practice harder.

I was mainly responding to your statement, "Frankly, who cares?" which, you must admit, is rather provocative.

Knowing about your sensei's background is not necessary in kendo, but it is not uninteresting either.

[Curtis]

Boastful name-dropping is silly, i agree.I have to go along with this one. I do not buy into the guilt by association here.

I do not care about what your sensei has done, what have you done? This does not change what I might admire about the sensei through my own observation.

When someone has great kendo skill I am also curious as to what else in their life they are good at or contributing in life? If all you do is kendo as some people do, then it really is not all that hard to be highly skilled. While I will respect their kendo skill I am more likely to look closely at what else they have accomplished to give that extra measure of admiration if merited.

The lineage is a nice history lesson, but for the most part really has little to do with how we pratice kendo now vs. the 1800's or earlier.

[Karaken]

Karaken,

Due to work, etc. I have not been able to go to my dojo for over 5 months. Today was my first day back. Phew, was that tough...

Would love to visit the new place in the same mall. I had heard that they were going to move there. I think I've seen the pictures on SungMoo website.

BTW, master Seong is visiting NYCKC this Saturday if you're interested.
It seems Master Seong is going to show with Entourage(?) including OW. I'll definitely try to be there in case Master Seong have it a GO with Kataoka sensei. Can't miss that.

[Hattori Hanzo]

I know my sensei's teacher was Romi something, Sensei was telling us one time about how Romi witnessed somebody accidentally being killed by a Tsuki. Romi was a slave driver too...guess I know where my Sensei gets it.

[ben]

I suppose it's not about knowing names to drop, but also something about your own sensei's biography, and his/her sensei's, and so on. What kind of people were they? What did they do besides kendo? That sort of thing. Yes Curtis sensei, like a nice history lesson. Of course it's not crucial to how you practice kendo, but personally I feel it shows some kind of care to make efforts to fill in the gaps in your knowledge about everything to do with kendo. A bit like being able to use the Japanese for every technique there is, what the bit of metal in the end of the shinai is called, knowing more than one way to wear a tenugui, knowing who the last 10th dans were, etc, etc. I just find it interesting, that's all.

b

[Hinokuni]

I was mainly responding to your statement, "Frankly, who cares?" which, you must admit, is rather provocative.Yes, it was a bit much. I was reacting to the first post's 'eminent sensei' and 'renowned sensei'. I feel that becoming a fan of someone, be it a strong kendoka or a celeb, can only turn us into imitators or followers.

History is fine but I have always envied North Americans (my wife is Canadian, so I think I know what I am talking about) whose actions aren't bogged down by centuries of tradition. The Duke of Westminster, for example, doesn't 'own' half your country.

Having said that, I think Curtis' comment about knowing how a person is outside kendo - and if their character has depth - is spot on.

[Curtis]

Here is another view. Consider if kendo had been allowed to die. I think the history or lineage so to speak is interesting for this. You have the leaders that kept it from doing so. Had it died it would not likely even be noticed by us today. We would all be off doing something else. I wound up doing kendo because one, I was not aware of where to take European fencing and two, my brother was already involved in kendo.

I find the history or experiences of the sensei I know to be interesting and helpful to shape how I pursue kendo. In the end however it is just about my own personal drive that shapes how I train and teach. I also know that I could not have got where I am in kendo without their instruction. As we all know you just cannot get this out of a book.


While I know or have known many top sensei, I cannot attach myself to them as other than I was lucky enough to practice with them or received instruction from them.

[psywarblade]

:: looks back into the past

what happened to the good old days of Isshinryu when the guy you learned from learned from the guy who created it.
:: FLASH FORWARD

this sounds like a homework assignment, I will ask at the tourney saturday.

[Holmgren-san]

All I know so far is: I've been being intructed under Matsuura Yutaro Sensei (5th-dan), and all I know of his sensei is that he's also a chairman for the IKF.