Is your sensei kind, compassionate, or a slave driver?

[Hattori Hanzo]

Mine is a Slave Driver but I see why though he is heavy on cardio conditioning , it ranks above technique, close but still ranking above it.

[Swissv2]

Does he need to lose weight?

[taganahan]

Does he need to lose weight?
haha...anywho, my sensei is kind and at the same time compassionate. most senseis are compossionate in my opinion cause you can't reach that far if you're not compassionate enough. he's also a funny man. i still remember when someone was doing a keiko with him. the student accidentally dropped his shinai while going against him but my sensei didn't stop to let him pick the shinai, instead he kicked the shinai away from him and started whacking a bit. the guy attempted to get his shinai back but my sensei kicked it away again. after that the sensei told him, "are you ok? that was quite an experience, eh?". it was actually funnier if you've seen it, instead of me telling it...lol.

~taganahan

[Kaoru]

Ahahaha!! Oh, that was funny, taganahan-san!

That... that is when you must develope the speed of Kenshin and reach the shinai before sensei does! :D If it had been me, I think I'd nearly be dying of laughter at that point, and then making darned sure I got to it before he did! Evade and duck out of reach until you have the shinai! After all, in a real swordfight, what else are you gonna do?? hehe! You are dead if you just stand there. :D Your dojomate was smart to keep trying! I can imagine what was going through his mind...hehehe! Poor guy!

Kaoru

[Kirin]

Hmmmmm....
If anyone kicks my shinai, even sensei, I will be really pissed off.....
If I dropped shinai and someone kicks my shinai, I will be tackling him/her.

Your sensei was trying to teach you how to react when you drop your shinai. if you drop your shinai, you DO NOT try to pick it up! you run to him and grab (wrap your arm) his waist so he wont strike you.

[Kaoru]

Hi!

Though I am not in bogu yet, I think getting mad if someone kicks your shinai away isn't a good way to react. That would make you lose focus and possibly make you careless, and give your opponent the advantage. You want to be calm and collected and use strategy to keep out of the other guy's reach while you go get the shinai. I think it is silly to grab the one who kicked it away. I would not do that. In a real fight, this would get you killed. Ji-geiko, as I understand it, is akin to a real swordfight and should be taken in that manner, IMHO, even though my opinion doesn't mean much just yet. Though, I do have a certain level of TKD sparring experience to know something about sparring. I think I would never back down or resort to grabbing just because it got kicked away. That shows lack of patience and too much a show of emotion if you react in an aggressive manner. I mean for example, showing you are not pleased. Why let them know? Emotions beyond kai and zanshin are useless. They only help your opponent read you. And, they can use it against you.

Though, I think a non-sensei kicking a shinai away would not be very polite.
Sensei has a right to do what he wants. Still, a show of calm is always best. It may confuse or bother your opponent that he couldn't rattle you! That is to your advantage.

Well, please excuse an opinion from a beginnner... *bow* I humbly accept any corrections... :)

Kaoru

[taganahan]

uh oh! i just realized my error. i think my sensei didn't kicked the shinai, well he used his own shinai to keep it away from the student.

you really don't need to grab someone who threw away your shinai. my sensei in this instance was just showing him the consequence and the importance of holding to your shinai, like your life depended on it. every once in a while, you also need to be knocked out to see someone's point.

~taganahan

[Kirin]

uh oh! i just realized my error. i think my sensei didn't kicked the shinai, well he used his own shinai to keep it away from the student.

you really don't need to grab someone who threw away your shinai. my sensei in this instance was just showing him the consequence and the importance of holding to your shinai, like your life depended on it. every once in a while, you also need to be knocked out to see someone's point.

~taganahan
I thought so...
No sensei would kick shinai..


Kaoru,
You should be mad if someone kicking your shinai on purpose, just like some one stepping over your shinai.
This has nothing to do with your emotion. This is just kendo etiquete.
And proper way to react when you drop shinai is to close in your oppornent, wraping arm around his waist, so you wont get hit.
This is how I taught 20yrs ago..... I dont think it has changed.

[D'Artagnan]

This is how I taught 20yrs ago..... I dont think it has changed.

I was taught this also about 1 and 1/2 year ago. by a reletively young sensei, who is very good at using makiage and makiotoshi to disarm his opponents :ninja:

[Curtis]

I thought so...
No sensei would kick shinai..


Kaoru,
You should be mad if someone kicking your shinai on purpose, just like some one stepping over your shinai.
This has nothing to do with your emotion. This is just kendo etiquete.
And proper way to react when you drop shinai is to close in your oppornent, wraping arm around his waist, so you wont get hit.
This is how I taught 20yrs ago..... I dont think it has changed.
Keiko, yes. Shiai, no. It is supposed to be a hansoku if you do this in shiai although people often do it. You are going to get a hansoku for dropping the shinai anyway, so what the heck I guess.

One of my first tournaments as a kyu the guy did this to me and I did a hip roll on him. I was later told by my brother that though it was a nice waza not to do that anymore.

[Kirin]

Keiko, yes. Shiai, no. It is supposed to be a hansoku if you do this in shiai although people often do it. You are going to get a hansoku for dropping the shinai anyway, so what the heck I guess.

Curtis Sensei,
Dropping shinai during shiai is hansoku, but point can be awarded to a strike immediatly after droping. and many times, shinpan's 'yame' call can be 2-3 seconds after dropping shinai.

To avoid this helpless 'ippon', shouldnt we still go for a hip roll ?

[Hattori Hanzo]

I agree the main lesson was to teach you to not drop your shinai, and that kicking the sword is "dishonorable". Even a fellow kendoka should treat the shinai with respect even though it is not theirs.

[Curtis]

Curtis Sensei,
Dropping shinai during shiai is hansoku, but point can be awarded to a strike immediatly after droping. and many times, shinpan's 'yame' call can be 2-3 seconds after dropping shinai.

To avoid this helpless 'ippon', shouldnt we still go for a hip roll ?By hip roll I mean I tossed the guy to the floor. It was the only judo waza I knew.

And yes you should do something to avoid the attack by your opponent. Either move in or out. But technically I understand you are not supposed to grab the opponent. I will have to check the rulebook again.

You can only get one hansoku, but you can also get tossed out of the match for unsportsmanlike conduct or lose a full point. Again I need to reread the rules.

Back to the subject of this thread, I like to be driven hard at times and I will certainly drive my students hard as well. You have to have that reserve when you need it. Driving them hard depends on what we are working on at the time.

[JSchmidt]

Is your sensei kind, compassionate, or a slave driver? It varies :)

Jakob

[taganahan]

in my opinion, all senseis should have a combination of them all.

~taganahan

[Swissv2]

all senseis should have a combination of them all
but be wise to know when to use em all :D

[Stimpson J. Cat]

And proper way to react when you drop shinai is to close in your oppornent, wraping arm around his waist, so you wont get hit.
This is how I taught 20yrs ago..... I dont think it has changed.
Going back even further, I have been told that if you go back to pre-WWII style kendo, the proper response to being stripped of your shinai was to throw your oppenent and either rip off their men or choke them out with the top of their do. Seems a pretty safe bet either would fall under the unsportmanlike conduct provisions of the rules these days.

Curtis-san, have you had a chance to check the rule book on what the rulebook says you can/should do in this situation?

[Charlie]

Hm. Curiously, I have always been taught to grapple my opponent if I lose my shinai. However, shiai rules seem to indicate that this is not legal. I am refering to this text:

http://www.kenwakai.org/regulations.htm

Article 16: Prohibited acts prescribed in Article 17, Item 7 of the Regulations shall include the following:

1. Putting one' s hand on the opponent or holding the opponent in one' s arms.
2. Taking hold of the opponent' s Shinai or grasping one' s own Shinai on its blade;
3. Taking hold of the opponent' s Shinai under one' s arm;

Can we get this cleared up? I mean, I was taught to grab my opponent ASAP if I dropped my shinai.

[ratdeau]

It's not legual and you will recieve a hansoku, but it will prevent you to receive a Ippon from your opponent.
In the same way, it prevent the reaction of turning back to pick your shinai and perhaps recieve a blow from behind.
Last, it means that you are ready to react to any action from your opponent.

[Curtis]

As stated above it is prohibited by the rules. I can tell as a shimpan I will give you a hansoku for it.

What we are taught to do in keiko does not mean it is okay in shiai. What was allowed in decades past is not today. Some of the older sensei tend to pass on things without making clear the differences where they are allowed. I do many things in keiko, often for fun that I would not do in shiai. Keiko can have much different rules depending on where you are practicing.

This thread has certainly taken a right turn.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So you would essentially award a point in that case? Hansoku for the dropped shinai plus hansoku for grabbing the opponent?

[Akasha]

An encouraging slave driver with a hint of occasional nice, mixed with very funny and cool.

Not kind, Not compassionate!

[Curtis]

So you would essentially award a point in that case? Hansoku for the dropped shinai plus hansoku for grabbing the opponent?
No, I am speaking of cases where I have seen them grab someone excessively during an attack without dropping the shinai.

However in the case where a person drops their shinai and grabs the opponent and tosses them or something could result in a ippon for the opponent based on the unsportsmanlike rule. Have I ever seen it, no. They always seem to fall short of this extreme. I did see someone punch someone after losing their shinai. All he got was a hansoku. I would have thrown him out myself.

[Darkshade]

My sensei? Slave driver during keiko, compassionate afterwards. Now that I've been in bogu for awhile it seems the slave driver attribute has been turned up a few noches, but that is to be expected. :)

And 'hello' by the way.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No, I am speaking of cases where I have seen them grab someone excessively during an attack without dropping the shinai.

However in the case where a person drops their shinai and grabs the opponent and tosses them or something could result in a ippon for the opponent based on the unsportsmanlike rule. Have I ever seen it, no. They always seem to fall short of this extreme. I did see someone punch someone after losing their shinai. All he got was a hansoku. I would have thrown him out myself.
So the advice to close on your opponent and give them a hug after dropping your shinai is still sound. You're going to get hansoku anyways, may as well negate the possibility of losing a point.

[Curtis]

So the advice to close on your opponent and give them a hug after dropping your shinai is still sound. You're going to get hansoku anyways, may as well negate the possibility of losing a point.
Yeah same as what I said earlier. You are going to get a hansoku anyway so which do they give it for? However you may get a warning not to do it again. As long as they are not rough I tend to ignore it.

[DCPan]

However in the case where a person drops their shinai and grabs the opponent and tosses them or something could result in a ippon for the opponent based on the unsportsmanlike rule.

Hi sensei,

So we can actually give "two-hansoku" in one sitting?

Thanks!

:smiley:

[not-I]

There is no contradiction in a sensei being a "kind, compassionate slave-driver," which is also what i would call ours.

Pushing you to give your utmost when you feel like you're at the end of your rope IS compassion. Your sensei is helping you to improve both your kendo and yourself by putting you through "hell" while keeping a watchful eye on your spirit, technique and actual physical limits.

This teaching style is well illustrated in the Zen literature, where monks refer to masters as "vicious dragons," but also thank them for their "grandmotherly kindness" in the same breath.

[Curtis]

Hi sensei,

So we can actually give "two-hansoku" in one sitting?

Thanks!

:smiley:
I have never seen it applied and I have to check the book again. I do not think it is referred to as two hansoku in the rulebook. But they cover it just in case...

[Charlie]

Hi, Darkshade! Welcome.

[jmarsten]

I have never seen it applied and I have to check the book again. I do not think it is referred to as two hansoku in the rulebook. But they cover it just in case... I covered this on the other thread so for a detailed answer please go there. Short answer only one hansoku and grabbing is a waste of time because the match is dead (please my see detailed answer in other thread posted by Charlie).