DOING KENDO AND GETTING OLDER.

[Usagi San]

It seems to be accepted by everybody that your kendo improves with time. But what about the your body? I mean, I'm a 42 years old kendoka and I started doing kendo some nine years ago. My body does not get stronger and stronger by the day, on the contrary.
At the same time that I feel my understanding of kendo growing, the response my body is giving to the crescent demands is not always the most appropriate. It doesn't matter that I do my best, which I always try to do, somedays it seems like... well... it seems like I'm getting old. I guess that's it.
What's the point of being aware if your body cannot match your mind?
Any comments about that?

[hobbit]

I'm 47, my sensei is 70+ . . . yet guess how many times I can cut him unless he wants me to? Although speed, stamina & strength will naturally decrease with age, it seems to me that as long as you have a good clean technique, timing, ki-ken-tai-itchi and seme are something that work better with age. ( I know what I mean, but I'm not explaining it very well - hopefully someone else will ). :old_man:

[hamish]

What's the point of being aware if your body cannot match your mind?
Any comments about that?
I guess the key to it is knowing what your body is capable of and using that to your best advantage. As you get older you may not be able to (for example) do as many big leaping men from to-ma as you could any more, (although I've seen a near 80 year old sensei doing them at will!) but if you know your body really isn't capable of doing it, don't try. What training do you do outside of kendo?

In any case, old age and cunning beats youth and enthusiasm any day!! (not that 42 is old, of course)

You should be doing your own kendo, not someone else's. What advice has your sensei given you?

Hamish

[Nishi]

What's the point of being aware if your body cannot match your mind?

I think the link here is very strong, with these older guys, the mind is very settled and the body emulates this as well. Still and immovable in both mind and body.

I know when i fight guys my age (or there about), there are usually openings to unload a string of attacks, but thats because we need a string to hit one cut, we are very physical in youth, but when you fight these older guys, and im talking about the ones that have taken kendo seriously for years...they dont allow many openings (if any), I rarley find good chances to attack and they control the fight completely. Physically speaking, they may only need a couple of attacks during a bout, which is not demanding at all, just menatlly aware.

[Steve Bishop]

I had the privelige to host an International Kendo Enbu Taikai (IKET) in Edinburgh just last weekend. Sumi Masatake sensei (Hachidan Hanshi) took part in a radio interview and explained that for him keiko is 90% mental and 10% physical.

[Usagi San]

What advice has your sensei given you? Hamish
Me and my sensei we laugh a lot about this. He is always saying that I shouldn't worry about that. That he also is getting weak and stuff, and that that is normal, etc. But mostly what he says is that all I have to do is to do "kendo that is beautifull", meaning, big (large??) movements, good body positioning, with good and positive atittude.
But you should see him, I mean, he is ten years OLDER than I am, he is japanese and rokudan.He is the older person in the dojo AND YET he jumps and flies and "kicks ass" like a 20 year old.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Of course as you get older your kendo must change. Most people (if they keep in shape) physically aren't too much worse off at 40 than at 25, but after 40 things slide a little. You should be working on centre, maai, seme, all that good stuff.

OTOH a little physical oomph never hurts either. Have you considered some cross-training? A little running for the wind, some squats for speed?

[Tholon]

Since I am 42 and started with Kendo some 6 months ago, I have given this some thought.

First of all, why does one train Kendo. If it is to win competitions, it's probably to late. But my reason to train Kendo is just to train Kendo. For it's own sake.

OTOH - it wouldn't be any fun to turn into a "punchball"... So there has to be a balance. And I do think that my age and experience will give me some advantages over the youngsters.

When it comes to fitness, I am not to impressed by some of the young guys in the dojo. So even if you are older, you can still be more fit.

As Neil said, some cross-training and running won't do you bad. (BTW - I don't have a clue on your fitness. So this might just be stupid....)

[meow]

And I do think that my age and experience will give me some advantages over the youngsters.

yup, I second that. The younger kendoka may have more power and stamina but I think we late starters are often more serious and have outgrown the fancy show-off stuff. Also we often know our body and limits better then most 20 year old do. You win some, you lose some...

[Usagi San]

I hear you guys, and in a lot of aspects I couldn't agree more with you, but the way I see kendo, and putting it in a very simplistic way, kendo is a sort of "stylized confrontation", and the most important word here, of course, is confrontation. After all its a martial art So even if you train "just for yourself" the "other one", the one who opposes you, as a lot of importance. Like Tholon said: it wouldn't be any fun to turn into a "punchball".
So even if you look at him as a mere reflection of you, (mental note: is this getting too mystical, or what???), anyway, he/you is the obstacle to surpass.
And that "victory" (over yourself) inevitably passes, expresses it self is through your body. Ki-ken-TAI, right? Hence the necessity of a responding body, and a good physical condition, and age, etc...
Pfu... did this made any sense to you?

[taganahan]

you should watch some very old senseis fight. if you go to kendovj.com and watch that video about the 8th dan sensei who is something like 82 yrs. old(if i'm not mistaken), you can see that he can still kick them around even though he is mostly just doing counter attacks.

~taganahan

[ben]

I'm facing this one too, and telling someone to look at old Japanese men doesn't always help. There is a personal aspect to getting older, a frustration that is much bigger than I realised. Of course it is bigger. I will never be as fast as I used to be. That's a pretty scary thought.

Most Westerners (apropos sport) hang up their boots, as it were, about now. We have a terrible tradition of worshipping youth (blame the Greeks, or Baron de Courbetin: "Faster. Higher. Stronger." phooey!). So I know what you are saying Usagi-san.

Remember a couple of things next time you're getting whupped by some 3-kyu.
1) If it wasn't for you they wouldn't have anyone to train with.
2) If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have anyone to train with.
That's all there is to kendo IMHO. Two people who don't give up.

Sore ja ganbarimasho!

b

[Old Warrior]

"There is a personal aspect to getting older, a frustration that is much bigger than I realised."

The alternative to getting older is dying young - and that is unacceptable.

Now, the question that remains is "how are you going to deal with the time you have". For me, kendo is a matter of making the best of my physiology and understanding the limitations of age and time so as make the experience enjoyable. Showing up and trying my best is everything. Remembering the athletic prowess that I once had and lamenting its loss is utterly useless. Searching for new ways to use what I have and learning more - is the real challenge.

I have taken issue with the idea promulgated by many respected board posters about elegant kendo and striving for that perfect men. My theory is that there is a place in kendo for everyone and that the skill set that is available to some of us does not always include the ability to do elegant kendo and there is no reason to frustrate oneself seeking to attain an elusive level of skill.

A dozen members of our dojang were the guest of the NYCKC and attended their Saturday practice. They were warm and generous hosts and it was my first experience at another dojo. My last bout was with a 4th dan who beat me like a stubborn nail. My bruises suggest to me that he was somewhat less than elegant but his vigor was way way beyond anything I could muster. At the post practice dinner, in one of his many speeches, the Master (as translated for me) mentioned how proud he was that I maintained my composure, fought back as best I could and took everything that was dished out without complaint (including 2 missed tsuki that got under my men). The point - I'll never be as fast or have as much energy as I would like, but I'm enjoying my bruises and looking forward to the time I get the chance to face this guy again. If I were him, I'd be embarrassed pounding someone 6 ranks below me, but the fact that he worked so hard at it, suggests that my 2 good men cuts and an unchallenged do cut must have really pissed him off.

The bottom line is that a realistic assessment of what you have is important, but you never have to be satisfied with the notion that you can't get better even if your old body isn't cooperating.

[JSchmidt]

OW, if you turn up at another dojo and start doing nito, you should expect people to have a go at you, regardless your rank...and never whine about the missed tsuki's :) It's part of the package that comes with doing nito or jodan.
It is regarded as somewhat arrogant for low grades to do either of those, regardless of the your reasons for doing it.
The only time I've complained about missed tsuki's when doing jodan,was because my throat was so badly bruised that it hurt drinking the post-keiko beer!

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

"you should expect people to have a go at you, regardless your rank..."

I was a very popular fellow. Everyone wanted a piece of me because I was the only one doing nito and one guy commented that they rarely get to see someone doing the style.

I had a good laugh on the rank status. We must wear white until we reach shodan. So (if our hosts new the custom) the lower ranks among us were obvious. At one point I said to one of our crew "hey, don't they know we are wearing white because we suck?". I guess not - because no one showed us any mercy (not that I wanted any) and it was great to have new unknown opponents to fight. It was an absolutely great experience.

[Karaken]

"you should expect people to have a go at you, regardless your rank..."

I was a very popular fellow. Everyone wanted a piece of me because I was the only one doing nito and one guy commented that they rarely get to see someone doing the style.

I had a good laugh on the rank status. We must wear white until we reach shodan. So (if our hosts new the custom) the lower ranks among us were obvious. At one point I said to one of our crew "hey, don't they know we are wearing white because we suck?". I guess not - because no one showed us any mercy (not that I wanted any) and it was great to have new unknown opponents to fight. It was an absolutely great experience.OW, modern day Shugyo is exactly that. Going around and meeting other Kendokas we don't normally train with. It was a long hard trip for me ( Manhattan traffic never impress me ) but it certainly was worthwhile going down to train with not only NYCKC guys but master Seong and his senseis as well..regardless of your rank, your Nito is coming along very well, I always enjoy keoko with you. Also, your dojo should join annual AEUSKF Tournament chaired by Kataoka sensei.. Maybe you should suggest that to master Seong. Then we can meet at least once a year :-)

[Usagi San]

I'm facing this one too, and telling someone to look at old Japanese men doesn't always help. b

I didn't want to say this because I was affraid to offend someone with good intentions but... YOU ARE SO RIGHT.
I saw them allready, better yet I did keiko with them. The little old japanese men, everybody talks about.
I'm a member of the portuguese team so I was in both Euro Champs in Bologna and Nantes and in Glasgow for the world one, and I went to all goodwill practices in those places. In Glasgow there was this old japanese gentleman who, in 3 minutes, made me pick up my shinai from the floor 3 times. And compared with him I was "younger and stronger".
But those are from a different league, they've been doing it all there lifes. You know (well, at least I know) you're never gonna be there, at that level.
How can I use them as an example? Example of what I'm never going to achieve?

[Munnin]

I didn't want to say this because I was affraid to offend someone with good intentions but... YOU ARE SO RIGHT.
I saw them allready, better yet I did keiko with them. The little old japanese men, everybody talks about.
I'm a member of the portuguese team so I was in both Euro Champs in Bologna and Nantes and in Glasgow for the world one, and I went to all goodwill practices in those places. In Glasgow there was this old japanese gentleman who, in 3 minutes, made me pick up my shinai from the floor 3 times. And compared with him I was "younger and stronger".
But those are from a different league, they've been doing it all there lifes. You know (well, at least I know) you're never gonna be there, at that level.
How can I use them as an example? Example of what I'm never going to achieve?
Today I am 38 years old, next year I will be 39……. no matter if I do kendo, or not.

[Karaken]

I didn't want to say this because I was affraid to offend someone with good intentions but... YOU ARE SO RIGHT.
I saw them allready, better yet I did keiko with them. The little old japanese men, everybody talks about.
I'm a member of the portuguese team so I was in both Euro Champs in Bologna and Nantes and in Glasgow for the world one, and I went to all goodwill practices in those places. In Glasgow there was this old japanese gentleman who, in 3 minutes, made me pick up my shinai from the floor 3 times. And compared with him I was "younger and stronger".
But those are from a different league, they've been doing it all there lifes. You know (well, at least I know) you're never gonna be there, at that level.
How can I use them as an example? Example of what I'm never going to achieve?
Whether you can get there or not doesn't matter - if you try to be there, you'll be a better Kendoka than not trying at all.

[taganahan]

you can use them as your goal. for example, tell yourself that they're old and that they're good at kendo. then think about it and tell yourslef that if you're young and good at kendo, you can beat them.:)

~taganahan

[hyuna]

It doesn't matter that I do my best, which I always try to do
Actually, it seems to me, that the fact that you do your best is the only thing that matters...

Like Tholon said: it wouldn't be any fun to turn into a "punchball".
How much can you learn by studying things you already know? How strong can you get by lifting weights that can be lifted without a second thought?

The day you feel you are no longer the "punchball" is the day you should give up and move on, for either you have mastered it utterly or you have given up trying to improve. In either case, the only value in it thereafter is to stroke your ego.

So even if you look at him as a mere reflection of you, anyway, he/you is the obstacle to surpass.
One shouldn't confuse the image in the mirror with either the mirror itself or that which the mirror reflects. Defeating a reflection, just like combing a reflection's hair, isn't necessarily as effective as one might think...


I have taken issue with the idea promulgated by many respected board posters about elegant kendo and striving for that perfect men. My theory is that there is a place in kendo for everyone and that the skill set that is available to some of us does not always include the ability to do elegant kendo and there is no reason to frustrate oneself seeking to attain an elusive level of skill.
I understand this feeling, but I think the key point is that frustration doesn't come from striving, it comes from a perceived failure to achieve. One can always be successful at striving for that perfect men, so there is no reason to feel frustrated by that endeavor. One cannot always (maybe ever) achieve the perfect men, but is that ever truly the goal? Frustration comes from believing that perfection is a place instead of a path. Thus, even though I agree with OW's theory, I disagree with his conclusion.

[bginop]

alright heres my opinion on getting older, although i am only 21.

The way i see is, there is a huge obvious difference between younger and older men. Younger men are as they say most lustful meaning, we act usually before we think not all the time but more than someone of older age, we are also less experienced on judgements which is an important part in my observation. Granted we are stronger and faster, but i dont think that makes a champion becuase if that were true the biggest fastests strongest man or women would be the best. Therefore, what makes a true champion? If it is not the strongest and fastest man then what is it? I think natural skill and technique and control can make a champion, but what does this have to do with you getting older? Well, like i said before older people usually make a "wiser" choice, also their bodies do break down (like you have stated), therefore you can not rely on your body, but you have to rely all on your mind. So i think, if you can create some kind of combo of using your experience and your mind, you do not need to be fast or strong.
Although this seems like a strech, i think if you really take it seriously it can help your kendo. Because like someone stated its all about "seme" and how your opponent reacts.

So, it sounds like a bunch of "BS" but, i think really it can work, but i cant really tell you how, but if you stick with it and study other older opponents it is possible for you to develope your own techniques to help you in your kendo.

[bginop]

hey karaken you know Kataoka sensei? I traied with him at this seminar this weekend and i must say hes really good, i am not sure how old he is but, that man knows what he is doing and he does not have to be that fast about it.

[bullet08]

36 going on 37.. over the weekend i felt really old. but.. i do kendo because i always wanted to do kendo. attended practice here and there over 10 yrs ago.. and finally, my area has AUSKF affiliated dojo.. 10 yrs ago i even try to start a work group by myself..

i think doing what feels right is what it's all about. tried to find answers to lot of things that doesn't really makes sense doesn't help, or at least it never helped me. doing things that feels right.. and doing what comes right.. i think that's what zen people call budda way or something. other then that.. drink lots of good beer.

[ben]

...I'm a member of the portuguese team so I was in both Euro Champs in Bologna and Nantes and in Glasgow for the world one...
Hey Old Man Rabbit! Just stop and think about how much you've achieved then! Stop and think about the fact that to the junior members of your dojo you are most likely an inspiration who has almost perfect kendo. They can't see your frustration any more than you can see the frustration of the old man who knocked the shinai out of your hands three times.

He has without doubt been struggling with the same demons as you, just that he's been doing it for longer. And guess what? He's STILL doing it!

If you haven't seen the NHK doco "Kendo's 120 second test of spirit" then you must get a hold of it. One of the most moving parts of it for me is when Miyamoto sensei (training hard for his 25th attempt at 8-dan) is getting changed after being whupped by Haga sensei. He just says: "It's hard. It's hard. And it will be hard forever..." He's not even talking to the camera, just to himself. It's a moment when you sense the weight of a lifetime's frustration.

Please just persevere. That's all you have to do.

b

[Tholon]

Isn't Kendo fantastic?

Here we are, a few oldies above 35, complaining that we may not be able to beat the youngsters. Or at least not the best of the youngsters.
Can you imagine any other though physical sport where you could see a similar discussion? Or any other sport where you can start when being over 40?
And still not be the laughing stock or the punchball.
Imagine to try to join a wrestling club. Or a hockey club.

Kendo is unique and fantastic!

[Old Warrior]

"I think the key point is that frustration doesn't come from striving, it comes from a perceived failure to achieve."

I know for sure that one trait that is shared by virtually all "over achievers" is the feeling that they can learn or do anything, by taking it in small steps (each one small enough to learn). By perservering and working to master each of the basic elements, a whole skill set can eventually be conquered. The focus needs to be on the next piece, not mastery of the whole body of work.

I ask myself at the end of every class "what did I learn today?". Only once (after a particularly frustrating class) did I give in to a weaker impulse and ask the Master "am I getting any better?". This was very much unlike me because I virtually never look for approval. To my astonishment he replied "much much better". What it said to me (ignoring the fact hat he was probably just being overly polite) was the fact that I was comparing my progress to the standard set by the teachers (a 7th or 4th dan) and I obviously don't measure up.

So, I say to brother Hyun, it is much better not to set your sights on the top of the kendo mountain, just worry about the next step.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Also bear in mind that progress is sometimes hard to see. Your dojomates are also getting better, so measuring against them is difficult. Your teacher is always adjusting his kendo to be slightly better than yours in keiko, so measuring against him is difficult. That's why exams can be so gratifying - an opportunity for you to receive a stamp of approval from a panel of people who don't see you everyday.

[JSchmidt]

So, I say to brother Hyun, it is much better not to set your sights on the top of the kendo mountain, just worry about the next step.
You need to do both, IMO, but also be careful that you don't set your short term goals too low.

Jakob

[Karaken]

hey karaken you know Kataoka sensei? I traied with him at this seminar this weekend and i must say hes really good, i am not sure how old he is but, that man knows what he is doing and he does not have to be that fast about it.
He's the master of NYCKC dojo. I believe he's relatively young. Don't let his relaxed demeanor fool you, if he's not fast with you, that's only because he didn't need to be :-)

[rainmaker]

I was so frustrated when I practiced with 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th dan sensais. I just cannot hit one good men. But I have been keep doing it over and over again. I was so surprised when I had a chance to compete with lower rank and even my rank. I am much better than them.... It might be good idea for you to fight with your rank and lower rank... It will teach you different aspect...

[Paikea]

I'm 43 and wearing my men tonight for 1st time in practice...I'll be half-blind because the glasses don't fit under the men and the contacts aren't here yet. My feet and arms ache constantly, I'm too fat for my own good and I'll probably burn out sometime before practice is over. One of the people taking shots at me will be my 14 year-old son.

I haven't felt this good in years!

[kenshin13]

I'm 43 and wearing my men tonight for 1st time in practice...I'll be half-blind because the glasses don't fit under the men and the contacts aren't here yet. My feet and arms ache constantly, I'm too fat for my own good and I'll probably burn out sometime before practice is over. One of the people taking shots at me will be my 14 year-old son.

I haven't felt this good in years!
You'll be half blind with wearing men anyway! So much stuff to see through! (probably a little more then an English fencing mask) Hey maybe your 14 year old son and me can get together after practice sometime to hang out.

[Swissv2]

Blind warriors are dangerous. :D

[taganahan]

haha....they might give you the "tsuki-balls"

~taganahan

[Stimpson J. Cat]

The only time I've complained about missed tsuki's when doing jodan,was because my throat was so badly bruised that it hurt drinking the post-keiko beer!

Jakob
Hey now, doing kendo is all well and fine, but when it starts interfering with your beer drinking, well, that's just asking too much.:smiley:

[baysun]

He's the master of NYCKC dojo. I believe he's relatively young. Don't let his relaxed demeanor fool you, if he's not fast with you, that's only because he didn't need to be :-)
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Oh you NYCKC guys are all the same>>>> Great!

[Karaken]

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Oh you NYCKC guys are all the same>>>> Great!
For the record, I'm not a NYCKC guy but have had pleasure of Kataoka sensei's teaching in the past.

[baysun]

In any case, old age and cunning beats youth and enthusiasm any day!! (not that 42 is old, of course)
Hamish
--------------------
Japan Late August 2004

So True! Henry Smalls,(www.warrior-priest.com )this guy is over 40, lost his legs when he was 16years. Started kendo in his twenties (after he lost his legs) participated at the World Championships in Kyoto and Paris, has won many championships in Hawaii, been presented with awards in Japan and Korea for Kendo.

Another person I know started when he was over 40 and is now a 5th Dan./ A man at the last promotion test got his 5th Dan at 85yrs. !!!, 2yrs. ago. And there were women over sixty years old who also got 5th dan. There was a very long applause for them. I will never forget it. All of them had beautiful and very good movement and more importantly great spirit> great heart! Kobayashi Sensei 8th dan, Manager Coach for the Japan Team in the World Championships/Scotland and All Japan Champion, was one of the great teachers who presided over this test.

Generally,this is not an issue in Japan, though I can understand the concern. One reason that I love kendo is because I have role models in so many,many, people {women and men{ who are older and so enthusiastic willing to share with me, an ancient art over a thousand years old. The only price, essentially, that I have to pay is my desire and love for Kendo. I always hear about teachers from the ALL JAPAN KENDO FEDERATION (ZNKR) who go abroad. They are Shihan>model teachers>, Let their age also serve as a model to everyone.

In my last last tournament in Japan, though over 35 , I was placed on the "A" Team.< 35 and under group> the other group was the Masters. My opponent was 28 and I tied him with Nitoh-Ryu. Hey I wasn^t happy with a tie, but.....
personally just being here, in that stuation, is like a dream.*smile*

Hey guys, two or three sincere kiri-kaeshi a the beginning of practice has got to raise anyones spirit! Lets always show our desire, spirit and heart.
Gift****>>> Confidence, Concentration, Control