reflexes and agility

[mikedunn]

hey all,

great to find a site to talk kendo with people.
i wish kendokev had told me about it earlier...

i started kendo earlier this year in march, and i find that my agility and reflexes are lacking.

does anyone have any ideas on how to improve agility - as in explosiveness to cut?

also, any tips for translating the recognition of an opening into a cut as quickly as possible. i seem painfully slow at present.

of course, practice is going to be the key and eventually i'm sure (i hope) it will come more natural and i will improve. nonetheless, i'd love to hear some ideas on how to improve on these areas.

hello, to all fellow melb uni kendokas and melb kendokas!

michael

[laurien]

Michael,

Get yourself some videos of the All Japan Kendo Finals. Watch ten or fifteen minutes every day - watch with full attention on the movements. This will really help improve your reflexes in general. I know this because I'm not playing kendo right now, but I have been watching those videos ('cuz I'm going through kendo withdrawal). My reflexes have really improved in the last few months!! It's not unlike the visualization exercises that sports psychologists recommend.

Also, consider doing some table tennis.

And you're right, practice is the key. I know it's fustrating when you WANT your bod to move faster, but it won't (like dreams where you are running but not moving). It will get better, though!

laurien

[KhawMengLee]

Doing another sport can help. I play Rugby and found that playing soccer on the side had improved my agility. In rugby I spend a lot of time just running in straight lines at the opposition. In soccer a lot more ducking and weaving is needed as well as dribbling the damn ball. What I found was that I could evade tacklers and duck and weave better.

The same can be appied to kendo. Badminton is a good way to get agile and build cardio fitness, the same can be said for squash.

It was in another post on this site but the suggestion was to place two boxes apart from each other. You stand on one and step onto the ground with one foot and spring off that foot onto the other box as soon as your foot touches ground. This will help build up the calves and speed in the legs.

As for reflexes...hmmnn..badminton...when someone smashes a shuttlecock at you, you got to be pretty quick to return it. I found that you can train up your reflex with this sport.


MENG

[David J]

Is it possible to improve your reflexes per se though? My Kendo-reflexes are non-existant, but I can catch something I just knocked off a table without any thought. I suspect that reflexes are just that - conditioned responses to specific events. I dont think building up reflexes in other things will necessarily help.....?

<rei>

Dave

[Tato]

Hello David J

I wont dismiss this theory so fast, I'm not a neurologist, nor a trained doctor, but I've read somewhere that it's posible to teach the nervous system, so you can answer faster to some situation. Something like the Pavlov's Dog.

And if you can train them, I would like to know.

Is someone in the forum with better scientific knwoledge who can bring a better answer?

Rei

[Ian Russell]

David ~ How many cups and dishes have you dropped and broken along the way to condition those Uberobjectcatchingjutsu reflexes?

I sometimes have days where my reflexes are just fine and then others where I'm a complete clutz. Like just this morning, getting up from my seat on the bus I somehow managed to bonk my head on the fluo-lighting rack. I'm still not quite sure how that happened. Hazardous Canadian public transportation! I also spend some days constantly tripping over my feet, it gets worse in the winter with ice-laden sidewalks!

So I have a vested interest in anything that may increase coordination :)

As for kendo, practice, practice, practice...

[Kendoboy]

I do the same if I drop something. My reponse is always immediate and fast. The reason for this is that the movements you make are smooth, efficient, RELAXED, and have been practiced over a lot of time. Also, I don't just use one muscle group when I am catching something. I tend to bend my legs (to move my body and arms down lower faster) etc. Do some suburi REALLY slow. pay attention to the muscle groups involved. Are all of them moving in the most efficient manner? if not, work on them one at a time. How many times have you heard 'relax' in kendo? or 'try to make your movements smoother'? something you can do is to get a suburi shinai (BIG shinai, like 3x as heavy) to build up strength. In relation to catching falling objects, you are only moving your arm; moving a shinai with the same ability will take added strength. Also, get some 5 and 10 pound velcro wrist weights. Wear them all day, every day for a few months. And, work some kendo type movements (with the weights) into an aerobic workout in the morning. As for the science part (tato), all humans and animals posess something called a 'fight or flight' defence. This is something developed when our ancestors were running from the sabre tooth tiger. What happens is, we see danger (like your mum getting pissed off about her good china being broken), and our brain releases 2 chemicals simultaneously. Serotonin, to make us calm, and adrenaline, to make us move FAST. these work together to enable the miraculous catch (notice you are calm during the action, and only crap your pants AFTER the catch). Try gikeiko with no armour on versus someone WITH armour. This will help you to release the neccessary "danger" chemicals in your brain. Once you got that down, try to remember the same feeling. Unfortunately, these chemicals only come into play when there is actual danger. So there is little you can do in that respect when in full armour and dueling with your mates. But, if you use the reaction to build up a sort of intuition (see the gikeiko thing) you will be better prepared.

PHEW!!! very long winded, but hope it helps.

[Kuri]

One of the main points to remember is to relax. This point has already been made, but I can't emphasise it enough. Even if you're going to catch that falling cup with those lightning reflexes, unless you were not preoccupied thinking about something else, and you're muscles weren't already in the process of doing something else, you don't have a chance of catching it. I'm with David J, it's very much about conditioning, but you must not be preoccupied with something else (physically and mentally), otherwise you will miss the opportunity.

Another point about actions is that if you practice (millions of times :D ) it stops being a conscience action and you can do it on auto-pilot so to speak. If you have to think about doing a cut, you have wasted precious time in executing that cut, and of course, the openning that was there a moment ago is no longer there. Kakari-geiko is excellent for this type of response; don't think, just do it.

Keep practicing, and conditioning your responces to the environmental inputs (ie. seeing that oppening). Try to stay calm and relaxed and keep practicing.

PS Ask Ben to starting doing 1000 shomen suburi (non-stop) with the whole class. He loves it ;)

[Dwayne P.]

Mike,

Your speed and agility will develop as your kendo progresses. Just like anything else, the more you do it, the better you get. Well in most cases that statement is true. There is so many things linked to speed and agility in kendo. One thing I like to stress the importance of the basics IE: Proper foot work combined with suburi to start with. You can never do enough suburi. When not in class you can really focus on building up your shoulders, back, forearms, etc using a suburito while doing suburi. Don’t forget about “Wringing the towel” while practicing your men, te, and do cuts, while using a shinai. The fulcrum action you produce, when done correctly, will generate the speed you are looking for. However it take a great deal of practice and dedication to the gain the level of mastery you are looking for.

Another point to be made is, Kendo is about speed and accuracy not muscles. Try to stay relaxed at all times, don’t tense up. Over using your muscles will do two things, tire yourself out fast and slow you down. As your technique sharpens your comfort level will increase allowing your speed and agility to increase as well as your overall kendo.

Cross training with other sports is always a great idea, however doing other sports will just help your cardio conditioning and nothing more. Kendo uses very different movements/muscle memory then other sports.

Hope this helps!

-Dwayne

[Matthew Lagden]

you cand evelop reflexes, just like anything else. as an example, at school we played cricket (for non anglo types its a bat and ball game, common ancestry with baseball) and to learn to catch we had a thing called a 'rack', which is basically half a barrel.

the teacher throws the ball in one end, and it comes zooming out of the other end at a random angle and if you don't catch it, it hits you and it hurts.

now when we started none of us could catch worth a damn, but within a few weeks, even the klutziest could pretty much get it 100% of the time. and as you got good at it, what you realised was that you were unaware of anything much until the ball was in your hand.

you zoned out, the ball came blasting out, your hand shoots out, and then you zone back in with a look of amazement on your face and the ball clasped in your hand. or blood running down your face of course.

this is moving in the direction of Meng's 'no mind' post....

[mingshi]

(Ever notice that there are "Universal Answers" to a lot of questions in Kendo that you can ask? :wink: )

does anyone have any ideas on how to improve agility - as in explosiveness to cut?
>>>> More left hand!!!

also, any tips for translating the recognition of an opening into a cut as quickly as possible. i seem painfully slow at present.
>>>> Manipulate your opponent. Create the opening yourself. If you know the opening is coming of course you will be fast enough to execute the cut. You don't have to recognize that "Hey! There's an opening!"... It'll be too late. Just goddamn cut it.

(But sometimes I really don't like people "show" me an opening.... I always think that, "No! It's a trap!!". Why show me? Make me feel like a moron. :ermm: )

[Haowen]

I don't know much about super-speed training since I am just a beginner, but my sempai and sensei used to tell me just to do things well as opposed to fast (at a reasonable speed but more importantly with as good form and relaxedness as I can manage). The idea was that greater speed and reflexes will come naturally with repeated practice even at somewhat slower speeds, but good form was more important since you'll never ever get good form by practising bad form.

[JSchmidt]

" (But sometimes I really don't like people "show" me an opening.... I always think that, "No! It's a trap!!". Why show me? Make me feel like a moron. )"

It's annoying, isn't it?:)...but then we all have to go through that, until we are able to instinctivly recognize and react to an opening. On how many of your attacks do you honestly see an opening before you start the attack?...or create an opening?. In the moment, I'm working hard on creating an opening prior to attack, but often I'll end up attacking anyway, even if I don't get the opening....although it is really nice when you get the opponent to react the way you want and 'whack', you get the ippon...but that happens maybe 2-3 times during a 1 hour ji-geiko session.

Jakob

[Confound]

I agree with what Meng and others have said about playing sports, and that your speed will increase with time. May I also recommend doing as much kakarikeiko as you can? One of my senseis recommended this to me, I have the same problem as you. Since I hate sports with a passion bordering on vehemence, option number one is out.

c

[stakenaka]

I heard that doing jump rope helps with your reflexes. I haven't tried it. Any comments?
As Kuri mentioned, the best way to increase your speed is kakarigeiko.

[David J]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
you can develop reflexes, just like anything else
<SNIP>
now when we started none of us could catch worth a damn, but within a few weeks, even the klutziest could pretty much get it 100% of the time

Surely though you just all trained yourself how to react to a specific situation. I dont see that there's a relationship between this and the general quality of your "reflexes", if such a thing exists independently. A reflex (as I see it) is a conditioned instant response to a specifc kind of input. (like Pavlov's dog as Tato mentioned). Therefore the only way to improve your reflexes in Kendo is by working on your Kendo reflexes.

If there's a neurologist out there, feel free to correct me, but I dont think training in one thing will make more than a very tiny difference to your reflexes in something else.

<rei>

Dave

[mikedunn]

I am quite amazed at how active this forum is, less than 24 hrs and i got that many answers.

Thank you all to your great responses.

A theme running through a number of the posts was 'to relax.'

Relaxing being one of my major problems. While, i try, my body seems to constantly be in tense mode (perhaps the rest of my busy life is too tense?)

So, the questions becomes: any tips for how to relax? I know its a very hard question and perhaps one that can't be answered, because each person has their own way of relaxing. Just thought, I'd see if any people had overcome their beginner tendency to tense up.

thanks,

michael

[CypherSushi]

I overcame it.... what I think I did was to slow my cuts down alot. I realised that when I tried to keep the same pace as the more advanced I just tensed up and couldn't do the cuts at all.
Whan I started slowing down the pace I actually became faster.
another thing is to make sure that you don't drop the tip of the shinai to far behind you head... the further you have to hit the slower you get.

At least that is my meager advice :)

[Tato]

Yea,CypherSushi got a point.

Happens the same in many sports, an example: if you play golf, your swing must be relaxed and fluid. If you try to hit hard (what many people try) the only thing that you will get is a distorted, tense swing that will send the ball to everyplace but the one you wanted

So better slow and well done, that energic and badly.

and repeat, repeat, repeat....

(myself I'm on the trying to do the cuts relaxed and fluidly phase too, if you want we can compare notes the next summer ;) )

Rei

[Matthew Lagden]

the slow down thing is good advice from a number of points of view - firstly because it allows you to concentrate on the quality of your cut, so that you develop good basics, and secondly because you actually move faster, because the movement is more fluid.

i have been consciously trying to slow down my cuts and the quality definitely improved as a result.

[cklin]

Especially when first starting out, there is only one way to improve (reflexes, recognizing openings, etc) ... TRAIN!

(i.e., don't think too much :))

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by mikedunn

does anyone have any ideas on how to improve agility - as in explosiveness to cut?

Well hello to you mikedunn,

Your solution will be found if you -
- train regularly and often, stretch well after training.
- do the stretches that your Sensei and Ben have shown you, AT HOME after a warm up on non kendo nights, hold each one for 30 seconds
- maintain your general fitness

And finally be patient, with application you will get to where you want to be.

Good luck.

Richard
PS. Talk to your teachers about this !

[Kendoboy]

In response to Dave j's "Surely though you just all trained yourself how to react to a specific situation."

Think of deer or rabbits. when they are young and they are trying to run from danger, they take a while to find the opening in the fence, and their movement is sort of slow and eratic. over time, and with practice, their instinct is honed to automatically spot the opening (in the fence or hedge in their case), and their speed is increased as well, because less conscious thought goes into the action (unconscious is like 10x faster than conscious). so it doesn't matter what the situation is, it is just the mental "vision" that is important, so you can spot the opening without actually thinking, "oh, there's the kote", or "there's the do".

Hence the mantra "start slowly with good technique, speed and fluidity will come over time".

[David J]

I cant speak with experience about rabbits or deer....

It sounds to me like you're proving my point - they are learning how to react to a specific situation (reacting to a threat by diving through a fence) through practice at it. I'm not sure it would improve their Kendo ;)

Anyway....

<rei>

Dave

[Kendoboy]

Right...

I wasn't too clear. I meant that the deer/rabbits/kendoka learn to see what's coming, and how to avoid it, rather than waiting until it's already happened, which is too late.

So they aren't learning to react to a specific situation, but learning to prevent situations from happening.

[laurien]

Originally posted by David J


Surely though you just all trained yourself how to react to a specific situation. I dont see that there's a relationship between this and the general quality of your "reflexes", if such a thing exists independently. A reflex (as I see it) is a conditioned instant response to a specifc kind of input. (like Pavlov's dog as Tato mentioned). Therefore the only way to improve your reflexes in Kendo is by working on your Kendo reflexes.


I disagree. The best way to improve your kendo is to play kendo, of course, but that doesn't mean other things don't help. What the heck is a "kendo reflex", if not an aggregate of skills that we have consciously determined to improve? Are we born with a "kendo reflex" like we are born with the autonomic reflex of salivation? Obviously not.

Furthermore, I don't think that we need the help of a neurologist to get through the basics of understanding reflexes. I think that a good thing to do would be to back up and define "reflexes".

1) The more global, everyday sense: The power of acting or responding with adequate speed. (Webster's dictionary). As in "That person has great reflexes".

2) The more specific sense: Fast response to a change (stimulus) in the internal or external environment that attempts to restore homeostasis; a reflex passes over a reflex arc (Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, Tortora and Grabowski). As in "Reflexes can be divided into three types: cranial reflexes, somatic reflexes and autonomic reflexes".

In kendo, we are concerned about the performance of our somatic reflexes (muscular contraction) and certain cranial reflexes (vision, balance, spatial perception, etc). Of course, autonomic reflexes help to keep us alive while playing (heart beat, respiration, etc).

Now, when I said watching kendo videos has improved my reflexes in general, I was speaking in terms of the global meaning – my visual reaction time, my eye-hand-body coordination has improved IN GENERAL. The American Optometric Association also says this is possible. Look at the topics and simple exercises they recommend on the left hand side of this site:

http://www.aoanet.org/conditions/sports_vision.asp

You will note that they say you can "you can train your brain to interpret and react faster".

So, it is clear that you CAN improve your GENERAL eye-hand-body coordination and reaction time, and that can only help specific (kendo) skills.


Cheers,
laurien

[Kendoboy]

Very good response!

After all the technical stuff, I think that the most important thing of all is to RELAX!!!!

So much time can be spent trying to analyse and quantify every part of kendo, but it is really time wasted. Kendo is about feeling, mental strength, and pressure. Kendo must be experienced to be understood. It is not something that can be learned be reading books, or sports journals. Time, practice, and determination are the only things that will make us better.

[Haowen]

Oh. Oops. Damn, I gotta cancel that order for the prototype forced-feedback artificially-intelligent bionic power-bogu...

[Raiza]

Wow, good explanation, laurien...

The only thing I'd like to add regards how we can speed up techniques over time, so we can react "without thinking". This has a clear scientific explanation that I'll try to make clear.

A brain is somewhat like an muscle. If you challenge a particular area repeatedly when young, that part will become larger. For example, violinists who start young have a larger part of their brains that are responsible for hand control. Regardless of age, if you use your brain for a particular task on a regular basis, it will become more efficient in generating the appropriate response, to the point that our idea of "conscious thought" is no longer necessary to react appropriately for a particular stimulus (i.e. an open kote). This is known in neuroscience as Hebb's Postulate, which explains increased efficiency of signalling in the brain. Likewise, if you don't regularly challenge yourself mentally, those areas not being challenged will lose their efficiency. For example, if you spend the rest of your life vegetating in front of a TV watching crap, you won't be that much fun or interesting to talk to.

I'm not a neurologist, but suppose working on a PhD in neuroscience (at least for this month!) gives me some credibility in this matter. So get out there and use that brain! :)

Raiza

[inner_cent]

The answer to relax, is to relax even more ........

What a vicious circle......

Most of time you won't know you are actually relaxed. But the way to do that is, train more, and learn from your keiko.... you will find, somehow, you are relaxed at the point where you are least awared.

[David J]

Well, I did say you could correct me ;)

Whilst I can see what you're saying, I still think that the best way to improve in Kendo is by doing a lot of it! I guess too, having seen it in other things, that I'm a little (too) sceptical about shortcuts in training.

"Regardless of age, if you use your brain for a particular task on a regular basis, it will become more efficient in generating the appropriate response, to the point that our idea of "conscious thought" is no longer necessary to react appropriately for a particular stimulus (i.e. an open kote). "

This is exactly my point. Right now there is a huge lag between my seeing that open Kote and actually managing to hit it. Keep working the brain/muscles on this and you are bound to get quicker as the level of conscious effort involved decreases when this particular stimulus occurs.

What I find personally harder to see is that improving other reflexes (say, playing Unreal Tournament) will make a noticeable difference to my Kendo. If it did I'd be a damn sight better at Kendo! :D Having said that, watching videos of Kendo seems more likely to help - same/similar task. I think the thing that affects my thoughts on this are being a person with pretty good reflexes at certain things, and virtually none at others :D

All interesting stuff though....

<rei>

[ben]

Relfexes are one thing, reaction time another. Maybe we should look at it a different way. Perception of an opening and acting on that perception are highly desirable in kendo. Thinking that this is something to do with what are called "reflexes" is maybe to isolate the problem incorrectly.

Theoretically at least, at the highest level of kendo speed is not a factor, only timing. If we can correctly perceive the three basic "datotsu no kikai" (opportunity for successful attack) we can do so at our leisure, so to speak. I think it is this ability to perceive and act on datotsu no kikai that you should practice. This is a matter for the whole of your body/mind. It's not just an isolated matter of physiology.

b

[munenmuso]

BTW, if you have the body of a weightlifter or a body builder does it mean that you can't have the reflex of a cat or the speed of the mongoose so to speak. With all those muscles on the way of an explosive sudden flinch, they contract to decrease your speed and agility.Is this true?

[laurien]

Originally posted by ben

I think it is this ability to perceive and act on datotsu no kikai that you should practice.

I agree with you completely, and I think that's good advice. However...


This is a matter for the whole of your body/mind. It's not just an isolated matter of physiology.


I remember the time that I tried doing keiko as a floating, disembodied brain. I went to do a kote, but discovered that I had no arms to lift the shinai.... ;) :bandit:

Physiology IS the body/mind.

Regards,
laurien

[ben]

I disagree. Physiology is the Cartesian Mind's process of looking at the body. A one way street, in a sense. It's not the same as the body-and-mind being *in* the body-and-mind which is total integration. (Unfortunately this is not where I operate from in kendo 100% of the time. I wish. But it is what I am actively striving for).

This is not to discount or discard a Western analytic approach, merely to suggest an alternative. I felt it necessary gently to de-bunk the idea that physiology might be the final word on these kinds of issues. Hence I used the phrase, "just an isolated matter of physiology," because after all, physiology is the product of only one world view, and there are many others.

BTW "a floating disembodied brain" is exactly what you'll get from too much analysis. ;)

b

[laurien]

Ben, it's hard to explain, but I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm no fan of "Descartianism", in actuality. I just meant that one cannot have a forest WITHOUT trees.

AND I agree that the Western analytical approach is only one way of looking at things. I even think that it is given too much importance in westernized civilizations. It does have it's uses, though.

Cheers,
laurien

[roar]

I hit, therefore I am

I have no problems what so ever regarding my mind interfering in my kendo. :p

[roar]

Zen Cycling
A Zen teacher saw five of his students returning from the market, riding their bicycles. When they arrived at the monastery and had dismounted, the teacher asked the students, "Why are you riding your bicycles?"
The first student replied, "The bicycle is carrying this sack of potatoes. I am glad that I do not have to carry them on my back!" The teacher praised the first student. "You are a smart boy! When you grow old, you will not walk hunched over like I do."

The second student replied, "I love to watch the trees and fields pass by as I roll down the path!" The teacher commended the second student, "Your eyes are open, and you see the world."

The third student replied, "When I ride my bicycle, I am content to chant nam myoho renge kyo." The teacher gave his praise to the third student, "Your mind will roll with the ease of a newly trued wheel."

The fourth student replied, "Riding my bicycle, I live in harmony with all sentient beings." The teacher was pleased and said to the fourth student, "You are riding on the golden path of non-harming."

The fifth student replied, "I ride my bicyde to ride my bicycle." The teacher sat at the feet of the fifth student and said, "I am your student."


I am all for simple approaches
That should make me a simple guy.

to improve in kendo- I do kendo
to do kendo faster- I do it faster
to improve bicycling- I use my bicycle
and I always relax
and never relax

Life is too full of means and ends

with all respect
carpe shinai
:D

[KhawMengLee]

I find a good session of kakarigeiko or Uchikomigeiko really good to develop attack speed. Especially after a few rounds when you are dying and the world is spinning because then its pure raw spirit and determination left to drive you.

Oji (Responding) Waza is great to get good reflexes. Suriage Waza like men suriage dou is good to develop timing.

The Sensei I trained with today when we were doing these drills told us not to wait for the cut but rather to attack if the motodachi takes to long. It sounded a bit weird but he explained we should not wait because if you only react when you see the attack its too late...rather he said you should try to "feel" the oncoming attack.

I wasn't to sure on what he meant but as we trained it sorta kicked in that instead looking for the men or kote cut I was looking at the attacker on the whole. eg. my counter came straight as he moved. No hesitation as soon as he moved forward I counter-attacked.

I am not to sure but it felt better because before I spent more time looking at the shinai going up then, "wham!" the cut is already there. The timing in this sense was better.

Any higher grades to comment on this?

MENG

[roar]

Another person on this tread said that he doesnt believe in short cuts. I agree, there are no short cuts to good cuts.
I think that to persevere and develop in kendo you have to work hard and patient to overcome your weaknesses and shortcomings. A beginner, an intermediate and advanced kendoka have different things to develop, but the feeling of incompetence, being too slow, unfocused is always there.
As an intermediate or advanced student, you can always get some points, and beat someone to feed your selfesteem and get some feeling of superiority. Of course, nobody would do such a thing!

A beginner has only people to look up to, and then frustration is THE mark of the beginner.
Be patient, but not like in waiting for paybacktime.
In iai there is a concept that may or may not apply to kendo: dai,kyu,soku,kei.
Big, soft,strong,fast. This is the way technique is developed, can not, and should not be rushed. My own experience is that when I have tried to do things in kendo fast or strong too early, Ive been forced to return to the earlier stages. The same with beginners that are put too soon into bougu.

Old saying: even learning to sit on a rock: three years
:old_man:

[KATSUJIN]

hmmm.....khawmenglee and roar have given good points.....i think the supposed high reflexes displayed by senseis when they keiko is actually their ability to feel the attack coming in.....which y they can cut fast or like some say....cut at the right time......my sensei is pushing me to learn this......he tells me that our eyes often lie........especially when the opponent is one of a higher level.....

[Nishi]

I believe that if your mind is still, and not full of trivial thoughts, then you are able to see and react as one single action, this may seem instint to a spectator. I have heard it said that a calm mind is like still water that reflects the opponents intentions (sorry about getting all "zen" ), mind leads the body.The crowded mind responds to an attack in desperation, the still mind simply responds! Agility reflects a healthy body...the two must unite....mind and body unified and calm....but this is just my path, i hope it helps.