Striking MEN properly

[Swissv2]

I am getting quite concerned that I am learning the wrong thing, so I will post the issue here.

First I decided to read up on "striking big MEN" posts I saw this post
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51184&postcount=7
And many of Neil's posts.

I started out striking the MEN in this fashion (please exclude the footwork, I didn't step back like the graphic - this is example grapic that rather shows my handle of the shinai)

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/Men.gif

My instructor yelled at me plenty tonight (all the time actually) because I was so comfortable doing the shown technique, she said I must instead bring my shinai up like this to do Big MEN strikes. My elbows should be sticking way out, and my shinai straight up in the air (not somewhat to the side like Jodan no-kamae)

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/strike.gif

I feel so uncomfortable doing this style, and it throws me off when I have to hit a target because I feel I am overstretching myself for big MEN that I miss the target every now and then.

I need recommendations.

[taganahan]

i've been doing the first one cause that's what my sensei told me. if your sensei told you to do the second one follow her. she knows a lot more than you. if you don't understand what she wants you to do, you should ask her after practice.

~taganahan

[Hinokuni]

When we strike in armour our strikes tend to become too small. Prehaps we worry we are going to be hit, or we think striking as fat as possible is the best way, or whatever else.

I think the point of making a big, almost exagerated, men during suburi or kihon is so that even during ji-geiko or when we're tired we still have a nice form.

Stick with it!

[JSchmidt]

I need recommendations.
Do what your sensei tells you.

Jakob

[Mr.Tvola]

I looked at both pictures and I think answer is quite simple - you should use your shoulders when cutting men as shown on the second picture, when doing kihon, suburi etc.
If you practice with your men on, this form is difficult to excerise, because men is kinda in the way, so you need to make a smaller move, but in principle the same way as before.

So both forms are correct, as far as you can jugde from the pictures :-)

Beginers sometimes tend to use elbows instead of shoulders and the cut becomes small and ugly :-) Follow your sensei, she knows what she's doing

[Swissv2]

***Note** The first picture I posted I didn't modify at all the form of the swing. You will remember the the first picture with the back swing form looked like this

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/strike.gif

Which, unmodified, looked like this.

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/suburi.gif

Further more, to give you an idea of how she wanted the shinai to be held, I have a depiction in which the left picture isn't modified, yet the right one is. She wanted me to hold the shinai as depicted on the right picture which entails that my left arm be bent, elbows out, and my right arm be almost straight.

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/shinai.gif

I just needed to clarify a few things.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The second picture is a good goal when practising without bogu, although the backswing is normally flatter than that (shinai pointing straight back). The 3rd picture in the first sequence is closer to reality for kendo with bogu on. I'm not sure what you meant by "off to the side like jodan". You should always raise it up completely straight (from a side to side perspective).

ETA (you posted the second set of pictures while I was typing) the picture on the right is correct. You are wrong about the bend of the elbows. If you look at the picture you will see that both elbows are bent equally, and this is what you should do. A more common mistake is that people straighten their left arm, not their right, in a misguided effort to swing bigger.

[D'Artagnan]

The dude on the left is in hidari jyodan, that is a kamae, not part of your upswing for a large men cut.

For your upwing for a strike to the shomen, your shinai should travel along the centre-line of your body, and not deviate. Graphic on the right is the correct way to upswing for men. As far as the original two methods you have posted, i have been taught both by different sensei. Do what your sensei tells you, i am sure she knows what she is doing.

edit - D'Oh, sorry i just repeated what Neil said, just not as well. he must have posted whilst i was typing.

[Swissv2]

I was modifying it a little more Neil, the correct picture is up now. When I had to raise up my shinai, my right arm had to be very straight to allow the shinai to stand up straight up in the air like that, and my left elbow bent and out so I could clear my head.

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/images/shinai.gif

[JSchmidt]

Those pictures are of a guy in jodan, not someone in the middle of a cut. Very different kettle of fish.

Jakob

[Swissv2]

Thx for the advice guys, though it feels quite uncomfortable and strange, I will continue with it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If either arm is straight at the top, that's wrong. Your shinai shouldn't be straight vertical at the top of the swing either. Any range from 45 degrees off vertical to 135 degrees off vertical is OK, most people are 90 degrees or a bit more for a big swing. When you learn kata you will be taught never to swing more than 45 degrees back of vertical - most kendoka struggle with that requirement and overswing by quite a bit.

[Curtis]

I am curious as to who your teacher is/was. We offered instruction help to a Reno club after they made an inquiry and they did not respond back. At that time a few months ago this group was being led by a woman from Japan I think, unless of course I got it wrong.

You can email me at cm@kendo-usa.org.

[hyuna]

Just to be clear:

45-135 deg off-vertical to the rear
should be centered and straight, left-right

so, if someone were looking down at you from the ceiling, you would look sort of like a letter T where the top bar is your shoulders and the stem of the T is the shinai.

the shinai is not straight up pointed at the ceiling (where you would look like just a -- from above), it is leaning backwards.

[Hai_hai]

Sometimes, you don't know what you look like if you aren't in front of a mirror or have a video camera.
I didn't realize I was swinging my shinai too far back and it didn't feel like it, until my sensei told me. After looking in the mirror, I was over-swinging.

Stop focusing on the kendo pictures and listen to your sensei. Look around at the advanced students in practice.

[Swissv2]

quite interesting you mention that Hai_hai, we have huge mirrors, and I was checking that.

My most comfortable position with the shinai raised up in the air was with my shinai facing off to one side like the figure on the left. The way I was told to do it was like the figure on the right.

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/shinai.gif

To answer your question curtis, Yuki (lady from Japan) quit teaching and left instruction to another lady. Yuki was raised with traditional Japanese training, so the class spent quite some time on each basic form. I wasn't there at that time I only arrived after she stopped teaching.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Stop focusing on the kendo pictures and listen to your sensei. Look around at the advanced students in practice.

They don't have one of those. Don't have any advanced students, either.

SwissV2, you guys need some help. Contact Curtis, I'm sure he can help you get the ball rolling. Maybe someone from Sacto could drop in once in a while?

[Swissv2]

A good friend of mine that teaches tae kwon do, and is from Korea said he knew someone living in Reno that is Kendo 4th dan that could be willing to help. I relayed that info to my current instructor and she was very excited about the possible help, but she has yet to talk to my friend and establish contacts.

We saw the possibility of going down to Sacramento, but in the end busy lives and little time was the problem.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Again, talk to Curtis or one of the other seniors with the AUSKF - one of the mandates of that organisation is to help in situations like this. They may have some options for you that you are not considering. Or not. But it's certainly worth an email or a phone call.

[Hai_hai]

I am getting quite concerned that I am learning the wrong thing, so I will post the issue here....
My instructor yelled at me plenty tonight (all the time actually) because I was so comfortable doing the shown technique, she said I must instead bring my shinai up like this to do Big MEN strikes. My elbows should be sticking way out, and my shinai straight up in the air (not somewhat to the side like Jodan no-kamae)...
I need recommendations.
I'm glad to hear you have mirrors.
Oh, I just re-read your first post.

First, don't go by drawings as "shown technique". You are starting bad habits. Thus, your teacher yelling at you.

Second, kendo is not comfortable for beginners, that tells me you are doing something wrong. Odd, but it's my gut instinct.

Third, 9 out of 10 sensei would yell at you. The 10th one would ask you who taught you that crappy style and why you are looking at pictures to learn kendo and kick you out if you insist that you think you are learning bad kendo because you are reading about this and that from kendo-world forum.

[Hai_hai]

...My most comfortable position with the shinai raised up in the air was with my shinai facing off to one side like the figure on the left. The way I was told to do it was like the figure on the right.

http://cobalabs.unr.edu/snip/shinai.gif....

The figure on the left is doing jodan no kamae with left-foot forward. BAKA!!!!!

[Hai_hai]

They don't have one of those. Don't have any advanced students, either.
Ah so.
Judging by Swiss Miss' description of men uchi, I would be yelling about the slanted upswing.

[Kirin]

Swissv2,

Maybe you can take a road trip to Las Vegas's AUSKF Kendo Summer Camp on July 24-25th
(http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/events.htm#auskfsumcmp )

Although this camp is intended for higher rank (4-dan up), you will be able to learn and find answers for many questions.
Plus you will get to meet many sensei from all over US, like Curtis sensei!

Also, you might start considering joining regional federation too.
Many federation has 'mentor program'. It is for dojo who does not have 4-dan up sensei. They will give you certain budget to invite out of town sensei or/and to attend local/national seminar.

In SWKIF (Southewest Kendo & Iaido Federation), every year 3 qualified dojos recieve $300/per under this 'mentor program'.

[Hai_hai]

Swissv2,

Maybe you can take a road trip to Las Vegas's AUSKF Kendo Summer Camp on July 24-25th...
I don't know if that's a good idea. What happens in Vegas... stays in Vegas.

[itachi]

LOL.
well anyways i think if your just beginning kendo, big swings is ok for now (thats just so you get the form and the idea). but you dont have to do it that big later on when you can do small ones. Thats what i think. But its still important to get them right. Also doing all the way back isn't a bad idea either. actually i find it pretty hard to do it with bogu on. do you wear bogu?

[Swissv2]

The good news is I dont wear bogu yet.
The bad news is due to my financial status (of being a student paying for all my things) I will have a year to 2 years of saving up for bogu. But it shouldn't be so bad, because I will have my basics down like crazy huh?

Maybe you can take a road trip to Las Vegas's AUSKF Kendo Summer Camp on July 24-25th...I would love to, I should also recommend it to the guys at my dojo, though personally I dont have time. Four words: Summer School, no money :)

Judging by Swiss Miss' description of men uchi, I would be yelling about the slanted upswingUpswing was done straight.

Thank you guys for your recommendations and advice. I just wanted to make sure that even though the techniques might feel somewhat bizzare, I feel its important to learn correctly so not to learn bad habits. I have all the respect for the instructor, so I really dont say anything in class (she is senior to me - of course) because it is simply her class, and one has to follow the class rules.