No mind.

[KhawMengLee]

I was watching a documentary on DISCOVERY the other day about the Samurai. It was pretty interesting as they talked about the development of the nihonto, bushido and so-on.

An interesting term did arise in this documentary called "No Mind"(No, I am not reffering to a maths class on a friday afternoon).

It was said that for a warrior to execute his techniques perfectly he had to use this principle. Now this might sound like some mystical BS but then the narrator gave another demonstration of a "no mind" technique.

He reffered it to typing on a computer. Many of us (including me), use the hunt and seek method. 2 fingers seeking out the letters we want. But people who use all of their fingers don't need to think of what they are writing, they know where all the keys are and just type like they would talk.

This is the no mind technique reffered to.

Has anyone else come across this term?

What are your thoughts on this?

PEACE
MENG

[David J]

AKA "Mushin"....you must have come across this one before Meng? Tut tut ;)

It's the essence of Zen.


<rei>

Dave

[Matthew Lagden]

Our Sensei talks about it quite frequently - if you can reach this level (too tired to think of right words - different kind of 'no mind' altogether) not only will you be faster than your opponent but you will not be signalling your intentions to your opponent, and thus will have an advantage.

as he put it - all of you (pointing to us beginners and middlers) are thinking about what you will do if your opponent say, cuts Men, whereas he (the sensei) does not know in advance what he is going to do but simply reacts from a depth of knowledge.

i am paraphrasing but i hope i have conveyed something of the essence of what he said - i understood it in theory when he said, but my level of knowledge is not really sufficient to convey it.

David J you must have heard Sensei talk about this - can you explain it better?

the typing analogy is good though. or riding a bike or any other deeply learned activity.

[GMason]

Hi all,

With regards to Mushin, this is how I understand it (Sorry if I repeat anything that has already been written. If you think I am wrong please let me know.)

Simply put Mushin means "Mind of no Mind" or "No Mind".

This is a state of mind that all Kendoka should aspire to reach, and most will experience once or twice in their Kendo Life. It is that moment when you cut someone, and afterwards wonder to yourself, how the hell did I do that. The cut comes from no where and is a totally natural.

I'm sure many will have done this. You act/react with out thinking. This is as I see it is Mushin.

Takuan Soho described what I consider to be Mushin if I interpret it correctly in his letters to Yagyu Munenori.

Quote from the Unfettered mind : -

The Affliction of Abiding in Ignorance

The term ignorance means the absence of enlightenment. Which is to say, delusion.

Abiding place means the place where the mind stops.

In the practice of Buddhism, there are said to be fifty-two stages, and within these fifty-two, the place where the mind stops at one thing is called the abiding place. Abiding signifies stopping, and stopping means the mind is being detained by some matter, which may be any matter at all.

To speak in terms of your own martial art, when you first notice the sword that is moving to strike you, if you think of meeting that sword just as it is, your mind will stop at the sword in just that position, your own movements will be undone, and you will be cut down by your opponent. This is what stopping means.

Although you see the sword that moves to strike you, if your mind is not detained by it and you meet the rhythm of the advancing sword; if you do not think of striking your opponent and no thoughts or judgments remain; if the instant you see the swinging sword your mind is not the least bit detained and you move straight in and wrench the sword away from him; the sword that was going to cut you down will become your own, and, contrarily, will be the sword that cuts down your opponent.

In Zen this is called "Grabbing the spear and, contrariwise, piercing the man who had come to pierce you." The spear is a weapon. The heart of this is that the sword you wrest from your adversary becomes the sword that cuts him down. This is what you, in your style, call "No-Sword."

Whether by the strike of the enemy or your own thrust, whether by the man who strikes or the sword that strikes, whether by position or rhythm, if your mind is diverted in any way, your actions will falter, and this can mean that you will be cut down.

If you place yourself before your opponent, your mind will be taken by him. You should not place your mind within yourself. Bracing the mind in the body is something done only at the inception of training, when one is a beginner.

The mind can be taken by the sword. If you put your mind in the rhythm of the contest, your mind can be taken by that as well. If you place your mind in your own sword, your mind can be taken by your own sword. Your mind stopping at any of these places, you become an empty shell. You surely recall such situations yourself. They can be said to apply to Buddhism.

In Buddhism, we call this stopping of the mind delusion. Thus we say, "The affliction of abiding in ignorance."

I think this describes Mushin far better than I ever could

Gareth Mason
Do Shin Ken Yu Kai
www.doshinkenyukai-kendo.org.uk

[Confound]

Didn't Musashi write about this as well in the Go Rin Sho (o my, if that's wrong, I'll be bitten by rabid weasels sent by everyone on the forum)? Specifically, in the techniques section? My copy is currently at school (i think), soI can't check.

c

[Haowen]

Yagyu Munenori also discusses it as one of the central themes in The Sword and The Mind. It's quite an important basic concept in martial arts, I believe.

[Ares2907]

I believe Tesshu was also an advocate of this sort of thing, though it's been a while since I've read much of his gear.

There are those occasions that you get when time seems to slow down. When everything seems to be in slow motion and your mind is totally devoid of anything. The point at which your strike is perfect and for the time following there is this sort of euphoria.
I'm not sure if this sort of thing has a name, I call it 'satori no gobyo' (5 seconds of enlightenment).
If I could achieve that state of mind every time I put my men on, that would be something else. I don't know if it's a realistic goal, but that's what I'm striving for when I do kendo.
weird and metaphysical, maybe. Impossible? Ask me in 50 years.
-A

[JSchmidt]

Takuan Soho also goes over this a lot...

Jakob

[KhawMengLee]

The commentator said one can see a brief glimpse of this in the strokes of golfers at the driving range in Japan. How they spend hours perfecting that stroke for a game of golf that might never come(golf is very, very,very expensive in Japan). :)

[kendo_chick]

Basically this is my thought.

If you are thinking about what is happening, it's already too late.

For example, if you are in gigeiko with someone and you are thinking to yourself "He always strikes kote-men when pressured so I'm going to pressure him and then wait for kote and then reach in for do... etc etc..." then you are going to be hit by the time you have a chance to think all of it!

[ben]

Mushin is what you should be cultivating during mokuso. I'm surprised that you hadn't heard of this concept already Meng.

When you are listening to someone talk whom you very much admire, there is often nothing in your mind other than a quality of receptiveness - no questions, no rebuttals, no internal monologue. This is like mushin.

b

[laurien]

Originally posted by Ares2907
The point at which your strike is perfect and for the time following there is this sort of euphoria.
I'm not sure if this sort of thing has a name, I call it 'satori no gobyo' (5 seconds of enlightenment).


Ares, ha ha ha! I LIKE it!

Meng, poem for ya ("one of Tesshu's favorite verses"):


This is the Mind-seal of not one thing.
What is "not one thing?"
Mountains fresh and green,
Water clear and flowing.


From: The Sword of No-Sword by John Stevens.

Cheers,
laurien

[KhawMengLee]

Mushin is what you should be cultivating during mokuso. I'm surprised that you hadn't heard of this concept already Meng.

Yeah, I am surprised myself. I mean mokuso for me is trying to clear my mind and think only of the task ahead but mushin, I never really identified as a concept.

I used to take it like drills one does in martial arts so as to build a natural reaction to a situation.

Laurien: Thanks for the poem...nice:D

MENG

[munenmuso]

This no mind thing I guess is one of the goals of zen.It's like doing things without effort due to repetition of movements.Action comes out naturally even without the conscious thought like riding a bicycle.

[Kendoka]

Meng, re Mushin - if the body is trained and the skills are practised in repetition, then instinctive actions and reactions could occur without need for prior thought in each instance.

Tesshu wrote -
"Using thought to analyse reality is illusion;
If preoccupied with victory and defeat, all will be lost.
The secret of swordsmanship?
Lightning slashes the spring wind!"

Also from: The Sword of No-Sword by John Stevens.

Richard