Good or Evil, and kendo's effect

[SaitoHajime]

This questions may seem out of place but try to put it in perspective. Obviously being human there is always the potential for good or evil. While the high percentage of kendo practitioners are most likely positive being I was wondering if anyone had experienced the effects of kendo on a negative or mostly evil person? Do they change for the better and more positive or become an evil person that is that much more highly focused and in touch with themselves? Just wondering what some of your experiences with this if any might have been.

[hamish]

Define 'evil' for a start. Is that a capital E, Dr. Evil 'Evil', or your plain garden-variety asshole 'evil'?

Outside of comic books you'll find it very hard to classify people in such black and white terms.

As an example, a lot of people think George W. Bush is Evil, some think he's great, and some think he's just incompetent. Who's to say for sure?

[Masahiro]

There is a movie called "sword of doom", it was shot in black and white, quite an out dated japense film with Mifune in it I believe. In it the main character was obsessed with this "evil kamae" (not to mention his ambition to become invisible) that he eventually became a product of this own ill-fated action.

On the 2nd note, I disagree with your following statement "While the high percentage of kendo practitioners are most likely positive" Very "few" kendo students (from 6th kyu to hachidan) can truely say I have applied kendo to my everyday life.

I think sometimes the line between evil and good is unclear. does the outcome justify your intention? or does your intentions justify the outcome? as they say the sum is greater than the whole.

[SaitoHajime]

[QUOTE=Hamish]Define 'evil' for a start. Is that a capital E, Dr. Evil 'Evil', or your plain garden-variety asshole 'evil'?

Outside of comic books you'll find it very hard to classify people in such black and white terms.

QUOTE]

Not exactly comic book evil but more modern day evil. Like the person who only looks for self gain with no regard to those who might be hurt in the process.

[SaitoHajime]

On the 2nd note, I disagree with your following statement "While the high percentage of kendo practitioners are most likely positive" Very "few" kendo students (from 6th kyu to hachidan) can truely say I have applied kendo to my everyday life.

I think sometimes the line between evil and good is unclear. does the outcome justify your intention? or does your intentions justify the outcome? as they say the sum is greater than the whole.

You have a point there as I only assumed they applied it to thier everyday life but it is a competitive sport after all. It's like me saying most football players are most likely positive. The line that you describe depends on having past, present, and future data on a situation. To truly know if something were to be good or evil you would have to know every aspect of it's affect on every other thing for the whole of time. What you do now may seem like the right thing but spun from another angle it could be completely and utterly not that. It's always relative however your view on it is the only thing that counts where you are concerned, the rest is just outside speculation. It's simply tough to try to define a relative term.

[kendokamax]

I think i'm evil. Kendo made me even more evil than before. My shinai is evil too.

[SaitoHajime]

I think i'm evil. Kendo made me even more evil than before. My shinai is evil too.
You I can accept being evil but your shinai? I mean it only does your will if you think about it. Unless you're suggesting that it has a mind of it's own. By the way how can kendo make you more evil? I'm just curious.

[kendokamax]

you walk down the street and you mentaly hit every bypasser on the head.

this is evil.

shinai? my shinai is full of splinters. and I go tsuki a lot

[Goyaman]

All of our life experiences give us the opportunity to respond positively or negatively, IMHO. In the end its a question of character and how we choose to face the issues we confront in daily life. Yes, all of us probably fall short, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile quest.

In terms of kendo, it's the Satsujin-ken/Katsujin-ken dichotomy; does your sword (figuratively) take life or preserve it? I've met lots of great people of all skill levels and backgrounds in kendo, but I've also met more than a few who I'd characterize in less than positive terms. If the purpose of kendo is just to gain some ego gratification or win in shiai, then I would say that those are shallow goals that do nothing to achieve the real benefits that can come from honestly evaluating our abilities while striving for improvement in life as in the dojo.

[SaitoHajime]

you walk down the street and you mentaly hit every bypasser on the head.

this is evil.

shinai? my shinai is full of splinters. and I go tsuki a lot

That's a lot of practice while walking down the street but that brings us to another good question. Being that you're a self proclaimed evil kendoist how would you say you're ranked at your dojo and or among kendoist peers? Hmm I still really don't see a shinai as evil even with splinters being that it still wouldn't do much harm in the way most strikes are done in kendo.

[SaitoHajime]

All of our life experiences give us the opportunity to respond positively or negatively, IMHO. In the end its a question of character and how we choose to face the issues we confront in daily life. Yes, all of us probably fall short, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile quest.

In terms of kendo, it's the Satsujin-ken/Katsujin-ken dichotomy; does your sword (figuratively) take life or preserve it? I've met lots of great people of all skill levels and backgrounds in kendo, but I've also met more than a few who I'd characterize in less than positive terms. If the purpose of kendo is just to gain some ego gratification or win in shiai, then I would say that those are shallow goals that do nothing to achieve the real benefits that can come from honestly evaluating our abilities while striving for improvement in life as in the dojo.
That's a very well put answer to the question. Thanks, it makes me want to think heavily before getting involved in kendo. Perhaps other sword arts that aren't as competitive would be helpfull, but in any case this is about good and evil in the dojo and so far from reading into the answers I've gotten perhaps the outlook isn't so positive, maybe just more of a sport thing. If that makes any sense.

[Goyaman]

Thanks for the feedback...
However I don't want to give the wrong impression, and I didn't want to dissaude you from doing kendo. While it's true that kendo does have a strong "sport" aspect, there's much more to it than that, and it has a lot to teach us--if we're willing to be aware of the lessons. My point was just that approaching it superficially won't generate those benefits.

After lots of nights of drinking with many sensei over the years, I've come to appreciate some of the deeper applications of kendo into daily life. Obviously, it's a path that has no end, but it really can give a lot back to you if you're willing to train with a sincere frame of mind that doesn't get stuck on the superficial.

[SaitoHajime]

Thanks for the feedback...
However I don't want to give the wrong impression, and I didn't want to dissaude you from doing kendo. While it's true that kendo does have a strong "sport" aspect, there's much more to it than that, and it has a lot to teach us--if we're willing to be aware of the lessons. My point was just that approaching it superficially won't generate those benefits.

After lots of nights of drinking with many sensei over the years, I've come to appreciate some of the deeper applications of kendo into daily life. Obviously, it's a path that has no end, but it really can give a lot back to you if you're willing to train with a sincere frame of mind that doesn't get stuck on the superficial.
Actually your statments alone wouldn't have dissauded me however I have found that kendo just probably isn't for me. I do believe what you say about the mindset of the individual training being important to what they get out of the training. Still, what do you see more in your fellow practitioners? superficial or non-superficial approach

[Kirin]

After lots of nights of drinking with many sensei over the years, I've come to appreciate some of the deeper applications of kendo into daily life. Obviously, it's a path that has no end, but it really can give a lot back to you if you're willing to train with a sincere frame of mind that doesn't get stuck on the superficial.

Goyaman,
Soo true!
On the other hand, time you spend 2nd dojo can be very EVIL.
I always regret one (maybe two or three) extra beer(s) or scotch(s), morning after the 2nd dojo :wink:

ps. any member or sensei from Doushikai going to Shinpan Seminar at Houston? Dallas dojo is planning to bring 3-4 members.
Hope to see you there!

[Goyaman]

Our dojo doesn't approach kendo as just sport, so I think that generally my sempai and kohai are not thinking of it in those terms. Probably most people would say the same for their dojo too, and I think it comes down to a matter of relative emphasis in teaching. Although of course we train for shiai, our outlook is that this is one important but not all-encompassing aspect of kendo. The senior members are a core group of older members and some graduate students coupled with a traditional-style sensei, so this is a sort of shared value in the group.

[Goyaman]

Hiro-san,

I hadn't heard about the Houston shimpan semimar...
Shows you how good communication is in our Federation desho ne.

Un, 2nd dojo is fun, but sometimes costly in brain cells. I remember some painful futsukayoi times after those nights at Max-san's place!

See you soon...

[Kirin]

Goyaman,
Here is link to the shinpan seminar.
http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/events.htm#shimpsem

Hope to see you there... also we are really looking forward to participate 3rd Longhorn Taikai!! any infos yet?

[jmarsten]

I sure hope more than 3 or 4 from Dallas are going. I hope all of the upper dan in SW are going. I am going to push my people to go down to Santa Clara for the the one for our region in October. I sure don't want to hear lame excuses about going. For me in October my schedule looks like this:
Oct 2nd PNKF shinpan seminar
Oct 9th AUSKF shinpan seminar
Oct 16th SWUSKIF seminar
Oct 24th TEAM USA tryout
Every weekend has kendo and November isn't much better. AND I still have a day job to feed my family and keep the roof over our heads. Not to mention taking my wife on "dates" to keep that part of my life happy. Life was really easy as a sandan.

[JSchmidt]

Well, 2nd dojo is most certainly evil!

Jakob (Who has just returned from "I will just have a couple" which turned out to be an awful lot more than couple of pints 2nd practice)

[DaQo'tah]

right now Im busy getting ready to start kendo this winter,,,

but of the many reasons why Im interested in this sport,,,is the way so many that are into Kendo always seem to talk about how calm kendo has made them.

I could use this type of calmness in my own life....

however Im not foolish enough to not see some danger in this to my spirit too,,,for we are talking about hitting other people and them people hitting myself...

have you every known a guy who just seemed to get too mad during kendo that you just didnt want to fight with him for personal reasons?

have you ever noticed a guy just seem to not find the calmness that so many others find in kendo?

[Kirin]

have you every known a guy who just seemed to get too mad during kendo that you just didnt want to fight with him for personal reasons?

have you ever noticed a guy just seem to not find the calmness that so many others find in kendo?

Again, if you use search and look topics under 'manner' 'etiquete' and such, you see many posts.
Kendo can be spiritual, but the main part of this art is 'reihou', manner and etiqute.

And just like your daily life, there always be jerks.
It does not mean all kenshi are saints or angels.

[Goyaman]

Hiro-san,

Thanks for the link.
We haven't set the final date for the Longhorn Taikai yet, but we're well underway in planning and look for it to be on October 10th. I'll be able to confirm this for you soon.

As always, we're very much looking forward to having everyone from D/FWKIK join us for the weekend and of course the "kakarigeiko" at the 2nd dojo atode...

Ja ne,
G-man

[SaitoHajime]

right now Im busy getting ready to start kendo this winter,,,

but of the many reasons why Im interested in this sport,,,is the way so many that are into Kendo always seem to talk about how calm kendo has made them.

I could use this type of calmness in my own life....

however Im not foolish enough to not see some danger in this to my spirit too,,,for we are talking about hitting other people and them people hitting myself...

have you every known a guy who just seemed to get too mad during kendo that you just didnt want to fight with him for personal reasons?

have you ever noticed a guy just seem to not find the calmness that so many others find in kendo?


Actually if such an opponent did appear that would a very interesting session but then again I have never set foot in a dojo so what can I say. Though every sport should have a Dennis Rodman don't you think?

[dotnet]

right now Im busy getting ready to start kendo this winter,,,

but of the many reasons why Im interested in this sport,,,is the way so many that are into Kendo always seem to talk about how calm kendo has made them.

I could use this type of calmness in my own life....


Kendo is one means of achieving this but not the only one.



however Im not foolish enough to not see some danger in this to my spirit too,,,for we are talking about hitting other people and them people hitting myself...


Please explain. How is your spirit hurt ? Mostly the people's ego is hurt besides some minor bruises. I can't really understand the reservations you have.

I don't mind other people hitting me. They show me how I can improve my Kendo. Hitting other people is more difficult. But then again, if they are practicing kendo with the same intention, they won't mind. So this problem will disappear as well.



have you every known a guy who just seemed to get too mad during kendo that you just didnt want to fight with him for personal reasons?


Initially .... maybe. I'd call it 'over-enthusiastic' ;). I now try to enjoy these encounters and try to make the best of it. This is were you can test if you really stay calm.

cheers,

dotnet

[dotnet]

All of our life experiences give us the opportunity to respond positively or negatively, IMHO. In the end its a question of character and how we choose to face the issues we confront in daily life. Yes, all of us probably fall short, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile quest.

[...] I've met lots of great people of all skill levels and backgrounds in kendo, but I've also met more than a few who I'd characterize in less than positive terms. If the purpose of kendo is just to gain some ego gratification or win in shiai, then I would say that those are shallow goals that do nothing to achieve the real benefits that can come from honestly evaluating our abilities while striving for improvement in life as in the dojo.


I also believe that ego gratification is no goal. But do you believe that 'people [you]'d characterize in less than positive terms' can change through some means; kendo in this particular case.

When I was 16 (way back ;)), I got the following book: The way of the worrior. The paradox of the martial arts. By Howard Reid and Michael Croucher.

As far as I remember there was an autobiography included from a kendoka from Glasgow who used to be quite violent in his teens, picked up Kendo, moved to Japan later on and seemed to have gained a fair amount of wisdom. If it is true, Kendo has changed his life.

Even though it might be a strenious task, isn't it worth while to tolerate or even encourage these people to continue with Kendo. If all I have to pay are some minor bruises I don't mind. Besides, as s.o. said in this thread before, there are always jerks around in your daily life. If you have to deal with them in your daily life, why not train with them and learn to handle them.
In life you have to deal with unpleasant situations. Why should kendo be any different. I try to make the most of it, even I fail. And it does happen frequently ;)

Cheers,
dotnet

P.S.: I am not trying to imply you have a different opinion about this.

[hyuna]

You can think of kendo, or any activity, in one of two ways:

One way is simply technique. In kendo that is footwork and learning to hit and learning proper behavior. Just like any mere activity, learning technique doesn't teach you values. For example, learning the proper way to bow and when one should bow does not teach you to respect others because one can learn it by rote and simply perform it robotically, as an empty gesture.

The other way to look at is in terms of values. That is in terms of the "why" instead of the "what." For a trivial example, one holds chudan no kamae to control center. Just as bowing without a feeling of respect is empty and meaningless, holding chudan no kamae without trying to control center is also empty and meaningless. Similarly, learning kata without learning the bunkai is just learning a dance. On the other hand, if one learns to respect others, people can see it, regardless of whether or not the person knows how to bow or shake hands or whatever is done in your part of the world. The technique and the meaning are separate things.

"Good," as you asked the question, is a question of values, and so it is a question of meaning. Therefore, the question of if kendo teaches "good" values comes down to the "why" of both learning and teaching kendo. If the thing that keeps a person coming back to practice every week is trying to increase the number of bruises delivered to their practice partners, kendo is not going to make them a "good person." If someone keeps going to kendo to learn kendo, then they will become "good" if they are shown "good" values by their teacher and their practice partners.

So I don't think there is a single answer to the question of how kendo affects "bad people." Good people with evil teachers will become evil, and evil people with good teachers will become good. People with ethically neutral teachers (teachers who only teach technique and method, without any values) will be who they are. These things are in no way unique to kendo.

That leaves open the question of whether or not it is possible to be "successful" at kendo without acquiring "kendo values," and if "kendo values" are "good values." I would say that success in shiai is probably independent of "good values." It is easy to see that "good values" have little to do with success in other athletic tournament circuits (if anything, "good values" are a detriment), and I have no reason to think that kendo is any different. However, to the degree that kendo is more than shiai, perhaps there is something more.