Trigger finger...hlep?

[Taek]

Hi! This has already been discussed briefly before but need bit more help.
I've got trigger finger problem. It started about month ago and not getting better but worse.
I've really tried to relax with my grip during the training but didn't seem to work.
I red a few article in the net and the suggested treatement are steroid injection or operation. I'd like to ask if anyone fixed their trigger finger without having to have an injection or operation. Rather than taking it easy, is there anyother thing I can do? Is it better to keep on using my troublesome fingers or better to leave without moving too much? Any help will be very appreciated. Ta

[JSchmidt]

See your GP.

Jakob

[don quixote]

You will probably have to amputate it!

[moetl]

sorry, this doesn't contribute to the topic, but i'm curious: what is a trigger finger? my dicitonary only tells me that's another word for index finger.
thanks.

[taganahan]

trigger finger = index finger......

maybe you should try and change how you grip/hold your shinai. that might work but still check it out with a doctor.

~taganahan

[Taek]

sorry, this doesn't contribute to the topic, but i'm curious: what is a trigger finger? my dicitonary only tells me that's another word for index finger.
thanks.

The tendons that bend your fingers run through a tunnel or sheath. Trigger finger is caused by a thickening on the tendon catching as it runs in and out of the sheath. The most common cause is tenosynovitis. You can often feel this swelling in the palm as you move the finger. The system is very similar to bicycle brake cable. If the wire becomes bent or rusty, the brakes work badly.

Well, basically my two left fingers usually holding shinai locks into the position how I usually hold shinai and makes difficult to open easily.

[Haowen]

I've had trigger finger caused by improper practice. The pain is annoying, and the inability to use your hands properly is mentally crippling.

Quick answer: Stop practice immediately, or it will NEVER get better and you'll live in pain all your life.

Long answer:

Stop practising swings until it goes away, then wait another few months. If it's a mild case, then it will go away by itself once you stop abusing your hands. You can still practice footwork.

I can vouch for trigger finger actually just going away with no surgery, no drugs and no injections if you totally cease kendo and drastically reduce other finger activities such as typing. I cannot verify as to whether or not it will recur, since I am on a 2-year-and-counting hiatus from kendo due to said problem. I'd say the probability of recurrence even after a full recovery is very high since I've had it happen to me before. I believe the thickening of the tendon sheath never quite dies down completely and so you're now permanently at a heightened risk compared with the average person. Of course, there are many things you can do to reduce the risk.

From what I have learnt I believe trigger finger is caused by a sudden onset of intense activity, for example, having never done a lot of manual labour with gripping and striking, suddenly to a full kendo practice twice a week. I am of the opinion that a very gradual program of strengthening the fingers and forearm will eventually condition the tendons to the point where they can accept the stress of kendo practice without triggering a cascading inflammatory response. So, I'm planning to get some of those grip trainer things and slowly train my grip to a good level of strength and flexibility before touching a shinai again in a proper practice. Self-paced, slow practice should also help you learn to use a proper "soft" grip that will not trigger the inflammation even on repeated strikes.

[KhawMengLee]

Hi! This has already been discussed briefly before but need bit more help.
I've got trigger finger problem. It started about month ago and not getting better but worse.
I've really tried to relax with my grip during the training but didn't seem to work.
I red a few article in the net and the suggested treatement are steroid injection or operation. I'd like to ask if anyone fixed their trigger finger without having to have an injection or operation. Rather than taking it easy, is there anyother thing I can do? Is it better to keep on using my troublesome fingers or better to leave without moving too much? Any help will be very appreciated. Ta

I had it during my first few months of kendo. Yep, grip was too hard...I adjusted that by holding the shinai lightly and only tightening the grip upon contact. I don't get it anymore so I think its a matter of adjusting your grip on the shinai.

Best advice is to see a trusted GP.

[Taek]

Thanks for your advice. I'm actually thinking about stopping training a couple of weeks and see how my fingers improve. I've got a few sempais at dojo just love doing disarming techinque on me and I gradually ended up holding shinai very tight so I don't loose my shinai during geiko. Well, it is my fault but I'll really try to relax my grip from now on. Hopefully, it gets better without stopping the training too long.
Cheers

[KhawMengLee]

Thanks for your advice. I'm actually thinking about stopping training a couple of weeks and see how my fingers improve. I've got a few sempais at dojo just love doing disarming techinque on me and I gradually ended up holding shinai very tight so I don't loose my shinai during geiko. Well, it is my fault but I'll really try to relax my grip from now on. Hopefully, it gets better without stopping the training too long.
Cheers

Last year at the post World Kendo Championship seminar in Glascow we were shown the proper way to grip the shinai. Hirakawa Sensei demonstrated how if the grip is right, your shinai will naturally move to the center even after your opponent taps it aside...

Its a bit hard to explain but your grip should be firm but not tight. If you grip tightly you are overstraining the muscle and tendons...actually, talk to your sensei about it...I'm sure they can help more than we can.

[ratdeau]

I've got a few sempais at dojo just love doing disarming techinque on me and I gradually ended up holding shinai very tight so I don't loose my shinai during geiko.
CheersI assume that your problem is with your right finger.
When you hold firmly your shinai with your right hand, it give a good rotation point for disarming you. Instead try to hold your shinai more with your left hand (70% / 30%). When people hit your shinai, don't try to resist, let your shinai go out of the center (with your right hand) but come back to the center quickly.
Remember, when you open your hand, your fingers should be in an horizontal position, like for a shakehand (and not oriented toward the floor).

[Taek]

I really appreciate for you guys's advice. Yes..I think my grip is wrong. When I first started Kendo ten years ago and until I had to stop due to my neck problem from road accident, I never had the trigger finger problem. It only started as I returned to Kendo a few months ago. Last thing I want is stopping kendo again. I'll try to change my grip and hopefully the problem goes away so I can continue my tranining!!! :smiley:

[Andoru]

GAMBATTE!!

[Nanbanjin]

GAMBATTE!!
陳 ?

Is that 陳恵祥　or something like that?
Sorry for prying.

[DCPan]

From what I have learnt I believe trigger finger is caused by a sudden onset of intense activity...

LOL...no wonder.

Going to 3 hr kendo practice after moving furnitures around BAD!!!

I have trigger finger in the middle finger of my left hand now....

Cortisone shot, here I come... :devious:

[DCPan]

LOL...no wonder.

Going to 3 hr kendo practice after moving furnitures around BAD!!!

I have trigger finger in the middle finger of my left hand now....

Cortisone shot, here I come... :devious:

Hmm...after reading online about cortisone shots...I'm not so sure that's such a great idea now....

Any thoughts?

Doesn't help that I do data entry as part of my job either...*sigh*...typing typing typing...

[ZealUK]

You get your trigger finger doing this?

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=speedshooter.wmv

[hyuna]

Resurecting this old thread because I've developed trigger finger in my left pinky. This started to happen after sensei told us to swith to gripping with the pinky half-on/half-off the tsuka (han-kake?). It's been about two weeks now.

Anyway, I was just wondering what happened with the other people here who have had it. What did you do, how did things turn out, what are you doing differently now?

[KhawMengLee]

Resurecting this old thread because I've developed trigger finger in my left pinky. This started to happen after sensei told us to swith to gripping with the pinky half-on/half-off the tsuka (han-kake?). It's been about two weeks now.

Anyway, I was just wondering what happened with the other people here who have had it. What did you do, how did things turn out, what are you doing differently now?

HOLD the shinai, NOT grip. When you hold the shinai and lift it up imagine holding an egg and lifting it up. Then when you swing down start to squeeze, thightening on impact, then relaxing with the egg in your hand grip.

[DCPan]

Resurecting this old thread because I've developed trigger finger in my left pinky. This started to happen after sensei told us to swith to gripping with the pinky half-on/half-off the tsuka (han-kake?). It's been about two weeks now.

Anyway, I was just wondering what happened with the other people here who have had it. What did you do, how did things turn out, what are you doing differently now?

Had the shot.

Ice my hand after practice.

After practice, I massage the muscle extensor carpi radialis longus and extensor digitorum communis with this

http://www.brookstone.com/shop/product.asp?product_code=324640&search_type=search&search_words=massage&prodtemp=t2&cm_re=Result*R2C1*T

Every now and then, I do Chinese scraping with tie ta jiau and soak in hot water....

http://www.muscleblitz.com/arm_diagram.htm

Since in your case it is the pinky, I'd do the Extensor Carpi Ulnaris.

You'll find that when you do Chinese scraping, you'll see a red line from the scraping that extends from the affect finger all the way up to your elbow...that's the route you'd want to take care of.

FWIW.

P.S. I also developed my trigger finger from a grip change.

[hyuna]

HOLD the shinai, NOT grip.
Thanks for your advice.

So, did your trigger finger go away by itself? Do you do anything special to keep it away other than correcting the way you hold your shinai?


DCPan: That is one serious looking massager!

[KhawMengLee]

Thanks for your advice.

So, did your trigger finger go away by itself? Do you do anything special to keep it away other than correcting the way you hold your shinai?


DCPan: That is one serious looking massager!

When I got into bogu I had it after 2 months, mainly because you get very tense and tend to grip the shinai hard. After making a mental note everytime I did a cut to relax my grip it eventually went away.

It came back about 6 months ago when I started training full time after a 1 year haitus. Basically, its normal to grip the shinai tightly because its hard to relax but it will come.

[Theodore]

I had a trigger finger on my right middle finger (no, not from doing a lot of THAT) which required surgery when it became to severe. Now working on one on my left hand. My Dad had one as well. Good luck. See a hand surgeon or orthopedist for proper evaluation.

[hyuna]

Basically, its normal to grip the shinai tightly because its hard to relax but it will come.
Haha, actually for the past year or two I've been told, more or less, to increase my grip. I actually tend to have the opposite problem -- weak tenouchi because of too light a grip.

Though I don't doubt that my problem is from gripping too tightly. I think the issue is that the new grip feels quite insecure since I am not used to it. Also the end of the shinai is now rotating more against the base of my pinky whereas it used to be butressed more by the inside of my palm.

[Darknails]

I also developed the exact same problem, on my left pinky. My right one also feels sore but doesn't make that snapping sensation when I bend it. It started since I began wearing the bogu, which was brand new. Maybe it's a combination of new stiff Kote and overly tight gripping. It turned from being sore to a real trigger finger after on Friday when I trained intensively for 4 hours.

Now I just hope that it goes away naturally. How long will it take?

[kendonoobie]

ok im starting to get scared, how do i prevent trigger fingre from happening. and how do i know when i have a trigger fingre. (i just started kendo a few weeks ago)

[Darknails]

Before you get it you first would have warning signs, such as soreness at the root(s) of your finger(s) after the training. Give plenty of massage. Slowly build up the strength of your tendon and muscle. Before it gets better reduce the intensity of the training or take some rest in between (inform your dojo leader of your problem). My problem is that nobody warn me of this problem, and training three times a week (excluding the suburi at home) since the start doesn't allow my fingers to adapt.

If you take my advice you shouldn't worry about it.

[Paburo]

i had trigger finger years ago. it went away after i started using a more 'fat' tsuka. double tsukagawa or more tsuka girth-ed shinai. or all of the above.

also relaxing more index and middle finger stopped the pain... (but seems like relaxed too much, now i'm told to grip with all the fingers.... lol, go figure)

[kendonoobie]

Before you get it you first would have warning signs, such as soreness at the root(s) of your finger(s) after the training. Give plenty of massage. Slowly build up the strength of your tendon and muscle. Before it gets better reduce the intensity of the training or take some rest in between (inform your dojo leader of your problem). My problem is that nobody warn me of this problem, and training three times a week (excluding the suburi at home) since the start doesn't allow my fingers to adapt.

If you take my advice you shouldn't worry about it.

thanks for the advice. i dont think ill get it since i have to work out alot for football and im on the computer so much:tongue:

[hyuna]

I went to see an orthopaedist. He gave me the shot right then. After a week, or so, the trigger went away.

I asked him what to do to prevent it, and he didn't have any suggestions. He said the exact cause is not really known. He said I can try using stretches and he didn't have any warnings about my using ice after practice, but in the end he didn't have any sure advice.

It does seem like acute overuse seems to be the common story for people here who have had it, though.

[Paikea]

ok im starting to get scared, how do i prevent trigger fingre from happening. and how do i know when i have a trigger fingre. (i just started kendo a few weeks ago)Come on noobie...you watched one practice (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176742&postcount=118) @ DFW ten days ago. Have you actually started practicing yet?

[Darknails]

I got the cortisone shot today as well, while being at the othepaedist for a even bigger problem.. broken toe. And I just said, oh by the way, I have the problem of trigger finger. Then he evaluated quickly before asking me whether I want to get the shot or wait for a while to see if it recovers. I said I'll get a shot. It was very quick. The finger got numb for a couple of hour then it went away. But the trigger finger is still there. I hope it'll come into effect in the following few days.

My father had and still has the severe case, whereby one of his middle finger is locked permenantly, since when he was a kid. He never bothered to go for surgury and has been able to live with it for 40 years. I never quite understood what the problem it is until I got it myself. The othopaedist told me that some people get it, some just never do. Seems like it could be genetic...

[Darknails]

Had the shot.

Ice my hand after practice.


DCPan, how long did it take from the time of having the shot until when the cortisone was in effect?

[joekc6nlx]

Darknails,

I had a problem with my right hand from the base of the pinky down to the wrist. The orthopaedist gave me a cortisone shot with a local anesthetic mixed in. The anesthetic lasted about 3 days, by which time the cortisone had had time to work. No pain after that one shot.

Kendonewbie, don't worry about things that might never happen. You should be more worried about getting your fingers jammed at football practice than developing "trigger finger" through kendo.

[DCPan]

DCPan, how long did it take from the time of having the shot until when the cortisone was in effect?

I couldn't use my hand for about 3 days (sat at home and watched TV while it throbbed as the anesthetic wore off). After the 3 days though, the trigger finger was gone. There was weakness of hand though, and tightness.

If your trigger finger is still there, it *could* be because the injection missed the knot...my physician was very particular about making my finger catch and feeling out exactly where the catch was before he injected it...it was NOT comfortable while he was contorting my fingers to isolate it.

I sat out of practice for about six month.

About six month after I slowly got back into practice, I'm experiencing stiffness in both of my hands.

After one hard practice, it'd be like 3 days before I can make a fist again and about 5 days to comfortably practice again. I can type and stuff, so I can still work, but....

While the trigger finger hasn't come back, I can feel the knot there after practice....it still burns sometimes.

Let's just say the new year resolution of practicing more hasn't happened yet and won't happen until my hands stop acting up.

[jonk]

While it's not exactly the same, I got bicep tendinitis a while back. A doctor recommended that I reduce the amount of dairy products that I eat. While I'm not sure if it will help anyone else out, after about a month the pain went away and with a brace, I was able to continue practicing the whole time.

[tantadi]

i had trigger finger years ago. it went away after i started using a more 'fat' tsuka. double tsukagawa or more tsuka girth-ed shinai. or all of the above.

also relaxing more index and middle finger stopped the pain... (but seems like relaxed too much, now i'm told to grip with all the fingers.... lol, go figure)
I sometimes have sore hands and my left ring finger acts up. I agree with the fatter tsuka, but I'll add that some shinai just feel much better on the hands regardless of tsuka. So I think it might be an idea for those who are serioulsy affected by problems with their hands to try out different shinai. Not only type but also size and weight as well, so that some practise can be continued.

Just my two euro.

[darkknight]

HOLD the shinai, NOT grip. When you hold the shinai and lift it up imagine holding an egg and lifting it up. Then when you swing down start to squeeze, thightening on impact, then relaxing with the egg in your hand grip.

I have this problem with my left pinky for over 2 months now. Started Kendo last March. I try relaxing my grip until down strike. Thanks.

Was the shot painful? My co-worker had a shot in his right heel. He described the pain as "flames shooting up his leg".

[hyuna]

The shot was unpleasant. But, my trigger finger was unpleasant much more frequently.

[Soja_Rain]

This is slightly un-related but I have horrible carpel tunnel syndrom. Somedays I will loose all feeling around my pinky fingers down my hand and wrist.

Sucks! I hear there is a surgery to "cut un-nessicary" tendons that run under your wrists to correct that, I wonder if there is something simliar for the finger situation.

[DCPan]

This is slightly un-related but I have horrible carpel tunnel syndrom. Somedays I will loose all feeling around my pinky fingers down my hand and wrist.

Sucks! I hear there is a surgery to "cut un-nessicary" tendons that run under your wrists to correct that, I wonder if there is something simliar for the finger situation.

The surgery would be to cut open the sheath that the tendon runs through to make it wider so the swollen tendon no longer get caught. They would stitch the sheath back together wider than it was....

[DCPan]

Was the shot painful? My co-worker had a shot in his right heel. He described the pain as "flames shooting up his leg".

The shot was surprisingly painless as the physician mixed it with an anesthetic...it was fire though, when the anesthesia wore off later that day....

[hyuna]

The shot was surprisingly painless as the physician mixed it with an anesthetic...it was fire though, when the anesthesia wore off later that day....
Interesting. I had the opposite experience. My finger was numb for quite a long time, and it didn't hurt at all when it stopped being numb. However, the doctor dug around with the needle somewhat during the injection. That part was decidedly unpleasant.

[tchan]

oops i double posted, read my next post sorry

[tchan]

Hey I understand your pinky tendon problem.
When I had it, it was pretty painful. Like if someone grabbed my left hand, it really hurt. Especially my last two fingers.

I had it, but it took a month to get it fixed.
Then later I had it once more, and then I tried a different way, and now it's been fine for half a year. And it didnt involve any shots >__>.. (ow!)


Well there are 2 ways to fix it.
The first way is I went to my Chinese doctor where he put this brown liquid(I dont know what it is in english but it kinda has a nice burn feeling) and massaged the tendons in my hand and arm about 2-3 times a week. Worked really well! Finding a good one is kind of hard by yourself i think. I only did this for a few weeks though, because i had to leave hong kong. My sensei, Ebihara sensei in ny has a chinese doctor like that too.

The other way, (which was really darn effective) was I used this: http://www.dynaflexstore.com/productdetail.php?pID=13693
It's one of those gyro ball things that you rotate around a lot.
It strengthens your wrist too.
Very surprisingly after 1-2 weeks, the pain was gone. Was kind of shocked! That amazing ball saved me!! My sensei actually recomended me to use that for the pain too.

But talk to your sensei about it too, because he probably went through similar things like that.
.

[flavio]

I've asked my family doctor what exercises or massages I could do to keep my trigger fingers from getting worse. He told me massages will not do anything but opening and closing my hand for minutes at a time as frequently as possible will help to keep the fluids circulating and stretch the tunnel.

I believe what caused my trigger fingers was typing for 8 or more hours a day and doing ridiculous combination(shortcut) keys with one hand (DON'T DO THIS!). And my hard Kendo grip just pushed it over the limits. For about two months I've stopped Kendo, got an expensive ergonomic keyboard from my work, stretch my arms/hands/shoulders every 15mins, and stopped using combo keys. It's VERY slowly getting better.