miyamoto's technique

[umoa]

is there a school that teaches his two sword technique? and is it allowed in competitions?

[Legio]

The technique is called Nito-ryu and it can be used in shiai (competition) but it is usually taught to higher ranking/level kenshis (at least 3rd or 4th dan if I'm not mistaken). I haven't heard of anyone teaching this style as soon as one takes Kendo. It is also difficult to find senseis here in North America which teaches this technique. Here in Toronto, the only sensei I know which uses this style is Matthew Raymond sensei at the University of Toronto Kendo Club and I think he learned Nito in Osaka. Search the threads, I think this question has come up before.

[rainmaker]

Even though, Miyamoto Musashi developed Nito-ryu technique, he never used this in his actual life threatening competition, (60 competition and won all of them). Even in the actual Kendo shiai, I have never seen Nito-ryu student win any competition..... It is very cool and catch everyone's eye. I have seen this guy with Nito get his ass kicked by another female kendoka.. She kicked his butt within 1 min....

[Kote-Men]

There is a common misconception that two swords are better than one.

Nito uses two swords, shoto and daito *spelling?*. Anyway shoto is the shorter of the two and cannot be used to strike an opponent. I have rarely seen nito played and even more rarely, win.

Nito is not somthing you can learn first, do kendo for a considerably long time before trying to learn nito.

Musashi invented nito but never used it.

I believe that nito isn't taught in the United States.

[Kote-Men]

you can see some nito on this site.

Downloads- you can see Toda Sensei's nito-ryu

[Hyaku]

is there a school that teaches his two sword technique? and is it allowed in competitions?

Yes there is. No, we don't do competition only embu.

[Hyaku]

To add a little: There seems to be an ever increasing connection being made with "Nito Kendo" and Musashi. This is clear misrepresention. His philosophy bears no relationship to the concept of Kendo. The whole thing, stance, grip, cutting action, stopping action, use of the muscles bears little resemblance to kendo. On the contrary one has to spend hour upon hour trying to separate the two, not incorperate them together

Few people will ever be in a position to find out how effective nito is. Although it is done for demonstrations it is not generaly taught in an open dojo. No misconception about what is better. Just an integral part of a weapons system. Even harder is the use of a short weapon with one hand.

How can you possibly do competition and mix the two? Using Musashi's technique with each bout one person would be admitted to hospital. No armour, strong thrusts up and under the chin. Sweeping cuts into the neck and cuts to the head that stop less than an inch from the floor. The whole concept is rediculous.

What I would advise that relates to both any Nito either Kendo or Kenjutsu is: You can spend around thirty years, perhaps your whole life time developing a strong kensen with one weapon. Then someone comes along and gives you two weapons? It's a new start. Most of us humans stick to one.

We can only hope to brush with the ability and power this man had but can surely try and practice his philosophy.

[Zaphiel]

(at least 3rd or 4th dan if I'm not mistaken).
5th dan....and this will take you a while!
and not every nitoka get' kicked in his/her backside......real good nitokas kick most of the other butts.

[taganahan]

you can't serve two masters at the same time....

~taganahan

[mystic_kendoka]

im sure there is some MCdojo out there tht teaches nito the moment u come in...

[Twobitmage]

Actually there's a koryu that teaches (hyoho) nitten ichi ryu.

Its a kenjutsu style based roughly on what was taught to musashi's head students/adopted children, and was passed down through the years. Of course though, like all koryu it's very hard to find a legit school outside japan. And with a style like this it's even HARDER to find :(

[Musha]

As I think Hyaku said there are two types of Two sword styles.

Nito ryu: Said to develop from Horseback fighting batou jutsu and art of taiko drumming. The Shouto is used to keep centre, and protect open arias that are more profound in Nito kendo. You use a normal Shinai with shorter tsuka and 1/4 size shinai for Shouto. It is widely used in competitions and there seems to be few rules and defined techniques. I guess some high ranking Kendo-ka find it passed down from other sensei or kendo-ka and use the kendo elements to perfect there techniques.

There is one very good Japanese language book called:
二刀流技と理論 nito waza to riron, Nito techniques and theory.

And a video by the mentioned Canadian Nito fencer.

Niten ichi ryu:

Is the school formed by Miyamoto musashi. It is a Koryu old style kenjyutsu? using slim light weight bokken (http://bokkenshop.com/eng/276.html) to help long suburi practice for long periods. I have heard that the art mostly consists of one sword techniques and two later on in the kata.

I tried for afew months and found I could control the two shinai to some extent. Though after seeing and talking to one Sensei, Gavin Thriepland I found I needed to be much better to use them proficiently. And also put alot more effort in to one sword kendo first. One problem learning an art on your own is. When you actually see or train under some one who knows what they are doing you know you are usually wrong :).

[Twobitmage]

you are right that there are 2 branches of nitten, but both are kenjutsu

nito ryu is the kendo version of the original style(s)

[Nanbanjin]

is there a school that teaches his two sword technique? and is it allowed in competitions?
There is one in Japan...

http://www.hakudoh.com/musasi/

Even if you don't understand Japanese it might be worth looking around at some of the images.

If you speak Japanese and are interested in Nitoh, the following thread from Ichinikai is a must see.

二刀流の破り方 (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/968109130859375.html)

The thread has 185 posts!

[Hyaku]

you are right that there are 2 branches of nitten, but both are kenjutsu

nito ryu is the kendo version of the original style(s)

No you are wrong. There is only one recognized line although in the past students have gone off to form their own groups. There are no branches, just students. Nippon Budokan can supply you with this clear fact.

Nito Kendo is NOT a Kendo version of the Niten (Not Nitten) Ichiryu. I walked through my last Kendo/Iaido shodan shiken sixteen years ago before concentrating more on Kobudo/Battojutsu. I continue to teach Kendo but for my own practice wished to do something more realistic. As I have mentioned before it would be almost impossible to bastardize the techniques of the ryu without turning it into something that in no way resembled the original.

I am now one of the senior representatives of the ryu here in Japan. In this I feel bound to support the position of Soke with simple facts rather than something I read on the net. We really wish to distance ourselves as far away as possible from any purported connection. Anyone stepping over this line and using the name of the ryu to promote their own thing is stepping into a legal situation.

I should also add that Soke is also a ninety year old Kendo teacher. Never once have I seen him pick up two shinai.

My front page spells it out. The concept and ideal of Kendo is not the same as Niten Ichiryu. Even the ZNKR knows that!

[Kingofmyrrh]

Thanks for the link, Nanbanjin. Full of good stuff!

[Nanbanjin]

is there a school that teaches his two sword technique? and is it allowed in competitions?

The Hakudoh page is pretty hardcore.
You might like some of the articles in the 雑記帳 at http://www.hakudoh.com/iori/omoya/index.html

[nalogg]

The technique is called Nito-ryu and it can be used in shiai (competition) but it is usually taught to higher ranking/level kenshis (at least 3rd or 4th dan if I'm not mistaken). I haven't heard of anyone teaching this style as soon as one takes Kendo. It is also difficult to find senseis here in North America which teaches this technique. Here in Toronto, the only sensei I know which uses this style is Matthew Raymond sensei at the University of Toronto Kendo Club and I think he learned Nito in Osaka. Search the threads, I think this question has come up before.
APPARENTLY (and i haven't seen it myself)
Tsuruda sensei at the etobicoke olympium kendo club knows Nito-Ryu.. he's been practicing kendo since before WWII
-may be just a rumor though-

[mystic_kendoka]

i dont think nito ryu is connected to niten ichi ryu.. in musashi's book, go rin no sho (which i think i can safely say is the best and most well known book on niten) talks about cutting with both swords, swinging close to u with the short sword, and swining far with the long sword, and in kendo nito ryu, u cannot strike legally with the shoto... so the basic principle is completely different..

[Twobitmage]

No you are wrong. There is only one recognized line although in the past students have gone off to form their own groups. There are no branches, just students. Nippon Budokan can supply you with this clear fact.

Nito Kendo is NOT a Kendo version of the Niten (Not Nitten) Ichiryu. I walked through my last Kendo/Iaido shodan shiken sixteen years ago before concentrating more on Kobudo/Battojutsu. I continue to teach Kendo but for my own practice wished to do something more realistic. As I have mentioned before it would be almost impossible to bastardize the techniques of the ryu without turning it into something that in no way resembled the original.

I am now one of the senior representatives of the ryu here in Japan. In this I feel bound to support the position of Soke with simple facts rather than something I read on the net. We really wish to distance ourselves as far away as possible from any purported connection. Anyone stepping over this line and using the name of the ryu to promote their own thing is stepping into a legal situation.

I should also add that Soke is also a ninety year old Kendo teacher. Never once have I seen him pick up two shinai.

My front page spells it out. The concept and ideal of Kendo is not the same as Niten Ichiryu. Even the ZNKR knows that!

i'm sorry if I was wrong, I didnt mean to cause any hostility. It is simple something I remember reading somewhere. I have visited your site before and I do not deny your credibility

[Hyaku]

i'm sorry if I was wrong, I didnt mean to cause any hostility. It is simple something I remember reading somewhere. I have visited your site before and I do not deny your credibility

No hostility here my friend. Just trying to get a few facts straight for all concerned. Soke is quite capable of sticking up for himself but leaves the foreign interpretation to me.

[KhawMengLee]

you can't serve two masters at the same time....

~taganahan

ooo...its debatable...nito, jodan and chudan. All three kamae are interesting and valuable...nito and jodan will teach you a lot about maai. Aki Sensei(who sadly has left UK for Japan) had this philosophy...its scary...in chudan he destroys and in nito he obliterates.

I like the idea of learning and trying different styles...you get to work out the weakness' and strenghts...knowledge never hurts.

[mystic_kendoka]

once (i wasnt there) my kendo club had jigeiko, using all kamae other than chudan... i wish i'd been there, i think it would have been very interesting.. i'd pick wakki...

[JSchmidt]

Aki Sensei(who sadly has left UK for Japan)
Actually, Ideguchi-san is still here for a few more days.

Jakob

[emitbrownne]

i'd pick wakki...Wakki-gamae is not much use nowadays as shinais are standard length. The advantage you would have from unpredictable ma-ai due to differing sword lengths is gone. Most kendoka can guestimate your cutting distance quite well, because of the standard length.

Wakki is slow, because you have to get it from the behind position and cover more disance to strike, and because upward cuts are dissallowed (if I'm wrong in this assumption please tell me) the cut from the side, straight up to the Do is a waste of time.

Wakki is only good for confusion techniques where people are not used to the stance and are not sure on how to fence against it.

However... Wakki is great fun.
Back off to a good distance from your opponent, adopt wakki, and kaii all the way towards them .... keep on screaming as you cut.

heh

[mystic_kendoka]

Wakki-gamae is not much use nowadays as shinais are standard length
i just think it looks cool :P also i think it would hurt a lot... time for payback! bwa ha ha

[Twobitmage]

ooo...its debatable...nito, jodan and chudan. All three kamae are interesting and valuable...nito and jodan will teach you a lot about maai. Aki Sensei(who sadly has left UK for Japan) had this philosophy...its scary...in chudan he destroys and in nito he obliterates.

I like the idea of learning and trying different styles...you get to work out the weakness' and strenghts...knowledge never hurts.

Aye I know a chinese maist who practices 4 different MA

[yangs]

Nido is very strong in the sense that it is the combenation of chudan and jodan. Since it has one more sword, it has a lot of advantages. Many wazas can't be used on it, for example kote nuki men because even his kote hit is dead, he still has one more sword to guard his men. Mai is harder to measure because nido players hit with their arm extented.

However, nido's requirements are really high. First you must have very strong arms. Second, you must have good sense about mai. Third, the hardest, you must well understand one sword techinics. Like what other people said, you must master one sword first before go into two swords. Those people you see just think nido is cool and start to using it without good one sword basics. Otherwise, Nido can beat most everyone.

When you use nido, there is no loosing for you. Cause you have much better guard. If a nido player looses to a one sword player, there must be a great gap between two players.

Additionally, the leader of nitten iddo ryu is in Kaoshong, Taiwan. He is a seven dan sensei.

[dualwielder]

youve hit the nail on the head about nito and the importance of learning the one sword before the two swords, the importance of mai. the understanding of mai and movement are extremely important for the nito user to be good at. the nito swordsman's strength is devided between two swords making it difficult to stand firm against a itto swordsman who does a lot of attacking and advancing.

[Infastyles]

Im completely new to kendo(could somebody give me some study links), but I have read musashi's book and the understanding I got is nito's main purpose is to develope independant movement in your arms and to strengthen you to using a daito with one hand. When you go back to one sword it will feel, plainly put, lighter and more agile.

But I could be wrong.

[Old Warrior]

"the nito swordsman's strength is divided between two swords making it difficult to stand firm against a itto swordsman who does a lot of attacking and advancing."

It is absolutely true that the way to "defeat" nito is to use multiple attacks to allow the closing of distance. But, the ability to block and strike simultaneously, is a huge advantage if employed skillfully.

One of the posters said it very well when he stated that nito is very hard to defeat unless you are a far superior swordsman to the nito kenshi. I have found that I am able to hold my own with people who have multiples of my experience, but I have been literally pounded into submission by 4th dans who are overwhelmingly better swordsman.

I do disagree that learning distance and timing requires the mastery of one sword before turning to nito. You can learn distance and timing just as well and as quickly doing nito.

[Kouen]

This word to say a Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu seminar is going to be held near Paris, France, october 2004. See www.nitenryu.org (http://www.nitenryu.org) The 11th successor to Musashi should be coming to teach.
We have many questions, but in martial arts field, questions get there answers through action, sweat and bokken in hand.
Many questions go "What is worth this tehnique?", I feel for myself that this question is maybe better : "What am I worth to this technique?"
I prefer when I am questionned rather than when I ask. This is more of a student point of view.
That is why I go on practicing.
I understand others ask, so please if you are interested, come and study Musashi's sword under great masters.

[Musha]

I went to a small Jyoudo seminar in a town near me and I thought it was great. Great to learn none Shinai techniques and I was impressed by how much some people knew about the Katana. I think Kendo teaches you the feeling of pressure in combat, but it never teaches you good form.

Wish I could go to the Niten ichi ryu seminar. Depends what date it will be and how much :).

[Kouen]

The dates are october 14th to 17th, 2004. All the informations are on the website www.nitenryu.org (http://www.nitenryu.org)
IWAMI sensei 11th successor to MIYAMOTO Musashi and Colin WATKIN-HYAKUTAKE sensei should be teaching.
I believe all martial arts point out to what is most important for them and each one holds a good point of view.
What seems interesting in this seminar is that a grand master of a koryu opens a koryu teaching to Westerners. This is in Europe a starting point for new relationship with the art of the sword.
Some opportunities compell us to action. I hope time and money will not be stoping you to study Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.
Well, any way, it seems we are coming to a time of sharing knowledge and practice. What will be done by some can be shared with others in time. This is just a first step. May your steps bring you to a meeting later ... or maybe very soon!
For the katana, I was impressed with Colin WATKIN sensei's knowledge and his eagerness to share. See his website www.hyoho.com (http://www.hyoho.com)

[KotatsuSama]

Actually, you can learn Nitou-ryu in America, I have seen a Dojo in Southern California (Torrance) that teaches Nitoryu, but then again it is a Japanese community and it really helps to SPEAK JAPANESE if you go there because most students and teachers speak VERY little english.

[misterkurukuru]

there is someone at torrance that does nito?

[gdane1989]

Just want to point something out. Miyamoto's technique was adopted into Nito-ryu. He never directly taught it to that school.

Another thing, (I'm to lazy to find the post) someone pointed out that Miyamoto never had to use his technique in a life threatening situation. Also that he never lost. Wrong. If anyone wants me to I'll pull out the old history books and type it out. There were a few accounts were Miyamoto lost a duel. The one at the top of my head right now is his second duel with Sasaki. Sasaki got creamed in their first duel, so he went to the mountains and trained, meditated, and yada yada. Came back with his good ol' handy staff, and returned the favor to Miyamoto.

Another time, cant remember the dudes name, some guy got attacked by Miyamoto, Miyamoto got pissed because he couldn't scratch the guy. All the other guy was using was an ordinary paper fan.

[Twobitmage]

Just want to point something out. Miyamoto's technique was adopted into Nito-ryu. He never directly taught it to that school.

Another thing, (I'm to lazy to find the post) someone pointed out that Miyamoto never had to use his technique in a life threatening situation. Also that he never lost. Wrong. If anyone wants me to I'll pull out the old history books and type it out. There were a few accounts were Miyamoto lost a duel. The one at the top of my head right now is his second duel with Sasaki. Sasaki got creamed in their first duel, so he went to the mountains and trained, meditated, and yada yada. Came back with his good ol' handy staff, and returned the favor to Miyamoto.

Another time, cant remember the dudes name, some guy got attacked by Miyamoto, Miyamoto got pissed because he couldn't scratch the guy. All the other guy was using was an ordinary paper fan.

hmm I've been told that sasaki died.

[gdane1989]

Its up for debate.

[RYUUJIN]

actually musashi did not loose to sasaki kojiro, even because sasaki did not use a staff, sasaki used a odly long katana and was killed by musashi during their duel which is known to be one of the greatest duels ever in japans history.the guy u are refuring to is called muso gonosuke, and yes he did lost to musashi at first with a sword and later on won a duel using a staff, but even when that happened he still called musashi his sensei.and there are niten ichi ryu dojos that will teach gonosuke's staff fight along with nito since their were friends and both arts are incredibly effective.

[RYUUJIN]

well it is said that he actually used the nito stance in a life death situation (it was more of a reflex than a planned thing) the first time he pulled a shoto to fight along with his daito was during the ambush that the yoshioka arranged, what happened was that he surprised them by killing the family representative that was only 13 i believe and scaped killing around 30 men and getting almost dead. to scape these men he used nito for the first time as a reflex. at least thats the outcome of the battle as we know it today.

[gdane1989]

OOps my bad, yes you are right, I just consulted the books

Particularly famous in Japanese chronicles of the age is the duel which took place on an island between Miyamoto Musashi, and another swordsman, Sasaki Kojiro--The preparation for which extended over a span of years. Sasaki lost both the duel and his life. _Secrets of the Samurai, Pg.272

As for Gonnosuke

...this particular method is said to have been invented by the great swordsman Muso Gonnosuke approximately four hundred years ago, after a bout with wooden swords won by the famous Miyamoto Musashi, whose inimitable style of two-sword fencing was adopted by the Nito-Ryu. According to the same tradition, Gonnosuke then withdrew to a shinto shrine and, after a lengthy period of purification, meditation, and practice with the staff, developed the art of the jo by blending the techniques of spearfighting and swordsmanship with those of other, minor methods of combat. He named his style Shindo-Muso ryu and prpmptly proceeded to challenge Musashi again. This time, Gonnosuke's method enabled him to mount an effective defense while skillfully penetrating Musashi's own two sword defense (Juju-Domai) Gonnosuke is said to have practiced continually until he had developed...

Well you get the point. Ty ryuujin for fixing my mixing in names!!:evolved:

[RYUUJIN]

if you guys like niten ichi ryu try www.niten.com.br (http://www.niten.com.br) its a site in Brasil of a kenjutsu dojo among other martialarts and u can find pictures of kenshins using nito in a seguence of shiais. worth taking a look