Call me an old fuddy-duddy

[Hinokuni]

What is 'honour'?

In many Western popular interpretations of budo I have come across this concept of 'honour', but I have never read it in a Japanese source.

If you do have a Japanese source that refers specifically to honour, could you provide me with an explanation? (Please note, I am not looking for personal opinions.)

Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I have the impression that we imposing our perception of what we consider to be Japaneseness onto budo by employing this term.

With thanks...

[Marine_Boy]

Ok you're an old fuddy-duddy.

I can't define "honour" but I try to do and act out what I feel is morally and socially correct.

[D'Artagnan]

'Honour'??? what is this word??? i know nothing of it!

[louisvandalen]

'Honour'??? what is this word??? i know nothing of it!


Honor, usually spelt honour outside the United States of America, comprises the reputation, self-perception or moral identity (http://www.free-definition.com/Identity.html) of an individual or of a group.

Previously honour figured largely as a guiding principle of society, functioning as part of a code of honour for a gentleman (http://www.free-definition.com/Gentleman.html) and often coming to expression in the practice of duel (http://www.free-definition.com/Duel.html)ling. One's honour, that of one's wife, of one's (blood-)family or of one's beloved formed an all-important issue: the archetypal "man of honour" remained ever alert for any insult, actual or suspected: for either would impugn his honour.

The concept of honour appears to have declined in importance in the modern secular West (http://www.free-definition.com/West.html). Popular stereotype (http://www.free-definition.com/Stereotype.html)s would have it surviving more definitively in alleged "hot-blooded" Mediterranean cultures (Italian, Arab, Hispanic ...) or in more "gentlemanly" societies (like the "Old South" of Dixie (http://www.free-definition.com/Dixie.html)). Feudal or other agrarian societies, focussed upon land use and land ownership, may tend to honour "honour" more than do deracinated industrial societies. Traces of the importance attached to honour linger in the military (officers may conduct a court of honour) and in organisations with military echoes, such as Scouting (http://www.free-definition.com/Scouting.html).

"Honour" in the case of females historically related frequently to sexuality: preservation of "honour" equated primarily to maintenance of virginity, or at least to preservation of exclusive monogamy (http://www.free-definition.com/Monogamy.html). One could speculate that feminism (http://www.free-definition.com/Feminism.html) may have changed some linguistic usage in this respect.

One can contrast culture (http://www.free-definition.com/Culture.html)s of honour with cultures of law (http://www.free-definition.com/Law.html). From the viewpoint of anthropology, cultures of honour typically appear among nomadic peoples and herdsmen who carry their most valuable property (http://www.free-definition.com/Property.html) with them and risk having it stolen, without having recourse to law enforcement or government (http://www.free-definition.com/Government.html). In this situation, inspiring fear forms a better strategy than promoting friendship; and cultivating a reputation for swift and disproportionate revenge (http://www.free-definition.com/Revenge.html) increases the safety of your person and property. Thinkers ranging from Montesquieu (http://www.free-definition.com/Charles-de-Secondat,-Baron-de-Montesquieu.html) to Steven Pinker (http://www.free-definition.com/Steven-Pinker.html) have remarked upon the mindset needed for a culture of honour.

Cultures of honour therefore appear amongst Bedouin (http://www.free-definition.com/Bedouin.html)s, Scottish (http://www.free-definition.com/Scotland.html) and English (http://www.free-definition.com/England.html) herdsmen of the Border country (http://www.free-definition.com/Border-country.html), and many similar peoples, who have little allegiance to a nation (http://www.free-definition.com/Nation.html)al government (http://www.free-definition.com/Government.html); among cowboy (http://www.free-definition.com/Cowboy.html)s, frontier (http://www.free-definition.com/Frontier.html)smen, and ranchers of the American West (http://www.free-definition.com/The-West-U.S..html), where official law-enforcement often remained out of reach, as famously celebrated in Western movie (http://www.free-definition.com/Western-movie.html)s; and among aristocrats, who enjoy hereditary (http://www.free-definition.com/Hereditary.html) privileges that put them beyond the reach of general laws. Cultures of honour also flourish in criminal underworlds and gang (http://www.free-definition.com/Gang.html)s, whose members carry large amounts of cash and contraband and cannot complain to the law if it is stolen. The encouragement of violent cultures of honour appears one of the drawbacks of legislation (http://www.free-definition.com/Legislation.html) that creates victimless crimes.

Once a culture of honour exists, it is difficult for its members to make the transition to a culture of law; this requires that people become willing to back down and refuse to immediately retaliate, and from the viewpoint of the culture of honour this appears as a weak and unwise act.

In contemporary international relations, the concept of "credibility" resembles that of honour: when the credibility of a state or of an alliance appears at stake, honour-bound politicians may call for drastic measures.

Compare the concepts of integrity (http://www.free-definition.com/Integrity.html), face (social custom) (http://www.free-definition.com/Face-social-custom.html) in stereotype (http://www.free-definition.com/Stereotype.html)d Oriental (http://www.free-definition.com/Oriental.html) cultures, or of mana (http://www.free-definition.com/Mana.html) in Polynesia (http://www.free-definition.com/Polynesia.html)n society.

For a similar concept with many connotations opposite to honour, see shame (http://www.free-definition.com/Shame.html).

See also: code duello (http://www.free-definition.com/Code-duello.html), Chivalry (http://www.free-definition.com/Chivalry.html), Bushido (http://www.free-definition.com/Bushido.html)

Quote: "... during the time that the aristocracy was dominant, the concepts honour, loyalty (http://www.free-definition.com/Loyalty.html), etc. were dominant, during the dominance of the bourgeoisie the concepts freedom, equality, etc." - Marx (http://www.free-definition.com/Karl-Marx.html) and Engels (http://www.free-definition.com/Friedrich-Engels.html), The German Ideology.

---

In many countries the term honour can refer to an award given by the state (http://www.free-definition.com/State.html). Such honours include military medal (http://www.free-definition.com/Medal.html)s, but more typically imply a civilian award, such as a British OBE (http://www.free-definition.com/Order-of-the-British-Empire.html), a knighthood or membership of the French Légion d'honneur (http://www.free-definition.com/Legion-dhonneur.html).

See also: British honours system (http://www.free-definition.com/British-honours-system.html).



In medieval England (http://www.free-definition.com/England.html), an honour could consist of a great lordship, comprised of dozens or hundreds of manors. Holders of honours (and the kings to whom they reverted by escheat (http://www.free-definition.com/Escheat.html)) often attempted to preserve the integrity of an honour over time, administering its properties as a unit, maintaining inheritances together, etc.

The typical honour had properties scattered over several shire (http://www.free-definition.com/Shire.html)s, intermingled with the properties of others. Usually, though, a more concentrated cluster existed somewhere. Here would lie the caput (head) of the honour, with a castle that gave its name to the honour and served as its administrative headquarters.

A lordship could consist of anything from a field or two to vast territories all over England. Thus the designation honour can distinguish the large lordship from the small. The term has particular usefulness for the eleventh and twelfth centuries, before the development of an extensive peerage (http://www.free-definition.com/Peerage.html) hierarchy. Traditional property-based honours in medieval England included:

The Honour of Huntingdon (http://www.free-definition.com/Huntingdon.html)




Books about 'Honor' at: amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=netlexicon-20&keyword=Honor&mode=blended) or amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=freedefinitio-21&keyword=Honor&mode=books-uk)

[Charlie]

You make a good point. This is something that gets discussed quite a bit at e-budo, particularly as there are a couple of Asian studies scholars there who point out the inconsistency between the way samurai history is portrayed and the way it may actually have happened. I'm trying to think of some good threads I could point you to. The posters to keep an eye out for are Karl Friday, William Bodiford, the Skoss', Earl Hartman, Ellis Amdur, Dave Lowry. And me, of course. (Ha!)

Hm, I started digging around in the archives at e-budo but haven't been able to find what I'm looking for. This isn't exactly what you want but it points out some of the romanticization that has been grafted onto the bugei by modren sources:

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm

Also look for discussion of Hagakure by the above author and others at EJMAS and e-budo.

All of which still doesn't answer your question. HONOR/HONOUR. Have I ever actually seen it in a bugei text?

Lemme think about that one.

[Andoru]

Thank you louisvandalen.

We can now close the thread. :D

[not-I]

From what i understand, there are many terms in Japanese that have the connotations of what we would call "honour" or "honor."

Gi, Yu, Rei, Makoto, Melyo, all of these terms stress particular aspects. Perhaps one of our resident scholars could dig up the kanji. Supposedly, the pleats on our hakama each represent one of these virtues.

I'll just quote the following summary of bushido from Deshimaru Taisen - The Zen Way to the Martial Arts:

Bushido, the way of the samurai, grew out of the fusion of Buddhism and Shintoism. This way can be summarized in seven essential principles:


1. Gi: the right decision, taken with equanimity, the right attitude, the truth. When we must die, we must die. Rectitude.

2. Yu: bravery tinged with heroism.

3. Jin: universal love, benevolence toward mankind; compassion.

4. Rei: right action--a most essential quality, courtesy.

5. Makoto: utter sincerity; truthfulness.

ó. Melyo: honor and glory.

7. Chugo: devotion, loyalty.

[Charlie]

Not-I is on the right track. We must endeavor to define honor and see if it translates. Let's see. Marriam-Webster's has this for honor (look out, it's a whopper):

Main Entry: 1hon·or
Pronunciation: 'ä-n&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French honor, from Latin honos, honor
1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b : a showing of usually merited respect : RECOGNITION <pay honor to our founder>
2 : PRIVILEGE
3 : a person of superior standing -- now used especially as a title for a holder of high office <if Your Honor please>
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT <an honor to the profession>
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a : an exalted title or rank b (1) : BADGE, DECORATION (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military honors> c : an award in a contest or field of competition d archaic : a gesture of deference : BOW e plural (1) : an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY <fought fiercely for her honor and her life -- Barton Black>
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance
9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the honors at the table>
10 a (1) : an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten especially of the trump suit in bridge (2) : the scoring value of honors held in bridge -- usually used in plural b : the privilege of playing first from the tee in golf
synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of such recognition <the nomination is an honor>. HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise <paying homage to Shakespeare>. REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe <great reverence for my father>. DEFERENCE implies a yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or reverence <showed no deference to their elders>. synonym see in addition HONESTY


---Seems to me that usually when we say honor we mean a code or system that recognizes the person's status externally, but we may also mean a person's integrity, which is internal and also subjective. That's where an argument can come in about what's the "honorable" thing to do; according to your internal system of ethics it may be one thing, according to mine, another.

So, question: does the word even translate? It means a number of things in English, does it even have a correspondent in Japanese?

[Hinokuni]

Thanks for giving this some thought.

Charlie, as you said, a fascinating article but not really what I am looking for.

not-I, I have read this before and sometime there doesn't ring quite true. For me 'honor and glory' sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the other 6 which seem to require humility.

I have translated some Japanese texts before, but I never found the word 'honour'.

Can someone prove to me this is more than a Western construct?

[Hinokuni]

---Seems to me that usually when we say honor we mean a code or system that recognizes the person's status externally, but we may also mean a person's integrity, which is internal and also subjective. That's where an argument can come in about what's the "honorable" thing to do; according to your internal system of ethics it may be one thing, according to mine, another.

So, question: does the word even translate? It means a number of things in English, does it even have a correspondent in Japanese?
Interesting point Charlie. I think you are saying honour is integrity. That I can understand. Viz your article, I can see why this word wouldn't have caught on. I am also interested on how do you translate honour in Japanese?

But please don't forget my original question.

[Haowen]

Supposedly, the pleats on our hakama each represent one of these virtues.

There's some overlap, but these seven virtues are not exactly the seven virtues symbolised by the pleats on the hakama.

http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/hakama_meaning.htm

In fact, while all these virtues are associated closely with honour, only one, Gi, translates directly to "Honour" as a specific concept rather than just having some association to a general catch-all class of ideas about upstanding behaviour.

[Hinokuni]

In fact, while all these virtues are associated closely with honour, only one, Gi, translates directly to "Honour" as a specific concept rather than a general catch-all class of ideas about upstanding behaviour.Sorry, Haowen, but I don't think GI translates to honour. I don't have my dictionary to hand, but I think it translates to 'duty'. It appears in:

(o) Giri - a sort of social duty

(correct me if I am wrong.)

[not-I]

Hehe, this is almost like a live chat.

Anyway, i just looked up "Gi" in JquickTrans, a nice little electronic kanji dictionary CD-rom. I still can't get my Japanese fonts to work correctly, but Haowen already posted the kanji for "Gi".

nanori, tadashi, chika, nori, yoshi

righteousness, justice, morality, honor, loyalty

The roots of the kanji come from a "beautiful sheep" as an aspect of personality.

:)

[Haowen]

Sorry, Haowen, but I don't think GI translates to honour. I don't have my dictionary to hand, but I think it translates to 'duty'. It appears in:

(o) Giri - a sort of social duty

(correct me if I am wrong.)

It's the usual oriental problem. When single words refer to abstract concepts they usually have multiple related meanings (best example: ki). You're correct, but I believe the kanji also means honour, and a sense of brotherly-chivalry.

[Hinokuni]

I am finding this debate really interesting, and am enjoying the references to sheep. Very Murakami-ish.

But, can you give me a Japanese explanation of honour and its use in budo, now or then?

[Haowen]

But, can you give me a Japanese explanation of honour and its use in budo, now or then?

I certainly don't know any history beyond what I can infer from the kanji. More learned minds than mine can answer this. There was a thread on bushido, perhaps there are some clues there.

[D'Artagnan]

Honor, usually spelt honour outside the United States of America...



Riiiight....

so whats the definition of 'sense of humour'...

[Charlie]

At this point I must drop out of the discussion and watch from the sidelines, because I do not speak Japanese nor read bugei texts in their original language. I only meant to suggest that honor as an English word has multiple meanings, so can it even be translated?

[D'Artagnan]

I only meant to suggest that honor as an English word has multiple meanings, so can it even be translated?

Not to nitpick, but there is no such word in the Queen's English as Honor...

Honour, yes,

Honor, No,

p.s. tsk tsk, a writer should know better, great stories in KW by the way.

[not-I]

Here are some excerpts from Nitobe Inazo's Bushido, originally printed in 1905. Perhaps you know the book.

Nitobe's book did a lot to romanitcize bushido in the West, seeing as he wrote in English and, as a Christian, was intent on drawing parallels to Western values (which seems to be what you're looking for).

The sense of honour, implying a vivid consciousness of personal dignity and worth, could not fail to characterise the samurai, born and bred to value the duties and privileges of their profession. Though the word ordinarily given nowadays as the translation of honour was not used freely, yet the idea was conveyed by such terms as na (name) men-moku (countenance), guai-bun (outside hearing), reminding us respectively of the biblical use of "name," of the evolution of the term "personality" from the Greek mask, and of "fame." A good name -- one's reputation, "the immortal part of one's self, what remains being bestial" -- assumed as a matter of course, any infringement upon its integrity was felt as shame, and the sense of shame (Ren-chi-shin) was one of the earliest to be cherished in juvenile education. "You will be laughed at," "It will disgrace you," "Are you not ashamed?" were the last appeal to correct behaviour on the part of a youthful delinquent.

Nitobe goes on to speak of how the concept was abused by some proud samurai who could get offended at any perceived affront to their honour, no matter how slight. And that this was countered by some sage/scholars who connected Mencius' teachings of magnanimity, patience and forgiveness to the concept of honour (perhaps with the "Gi" kanji, which is "Yi" in Chinese, a very Confucian concept roughly meaning "righteousness.")

The "sheep" at the top of the kanji for "Gi" is more explicable when one considers that in China this animal had/has connotations of good fortune, peace, love, and patience.

Anyway, these are just some references and half-educated guesses. A Japanese language scholar, if one is around, would likely be able to further explain the historical and contemporary usage.

[Nanbanjin]

"Honour"
Pronunciation: On'er
Region: Australia
Example:
- "Wayne, have you seen me chihuahua?"
- "Hang on, I think I might be sitting honour"

[Charlie]

Aw, D'Artagnan, thanks!

And, LOL! at you and Nanbanjin.

[hyuna]

I have translated some Japanese texts before, but I never found the word 'honour'.

Can someone prove to me this is more than a Western construct?
Of course there is no such word as "honor" in Japanese -- "honor" is an English word. Similarly there is no word "rei" in English -- "rei" is a Japanese word. Translation is always a game of rough equivalence. For example, "kokoro" is often translated as "spirit" but really the two words have only a superficial resembalance. Both words have centuries of cultural baggage attached to them that make them mean different things. Like when you die does your kokoro go to Heaven? Same thing with concepts like "ai" or "koi" vs "love."

Unless you are talking about a concrete thing that one can point to, there is never any direct relation between a word in one language and one in another. Even so, the name of a concrete thing carries different connotations in different languages, and, indeed, different connotations in different usage circumstances even as used by people using the same language and belonging to the same culture.

One can no more point at a thing and say "this is honor" then one can point at a thing and say "this is love" or "this is zanshin." We can point at examples of behavior that we would call "honorable" and after seeing enough of them, you might grasp the concept. It might give you a head start to say that honor is kind of like or sort of includes ideas like "rei," but probably not. In the same way, in the dojo we can point at examples of "zanshin" and eventually, hopefully, people get it. You can try to give people a head start by saying stuff like "follow-through" and "awareness" and "remaining heart" but do any of those capture the meaning, really? In the same way, no definition of "honor" is going to be helpful in helping someone develop a true understanding of "honor."

[hyuna]

Sorry, forgot to actually tie back to the original point and now the edit timer has elapsed.

You are not going to find a Japanese source that describes "honor" in any real way. You will only find Japanese interpretations of a foreign concept, and those will be colored by Japanese culture. In the same way, English use of the word "honor" tries to describe Japanese concepts and introduces Western cultural baggage along the way. This problem is inevitable in any translation. The only way to avoid it is to read the primary sources themselves (which entails reading them in their original language and acquiring sufficient knowledge to interpret them in the cultural context in which they were written).

[Hinokuni]

Dear All

Thanks for taking the time to think this over and for your replies - all most appreciated - and for your many views.

I am leaving this discussion with, I think, my question being answered with the words - personal -dignity and -worth and integrity. These make sense to me.

Thanks again!