Difference Between European And Japanese Swordsmanship

[Spencer]

I've heard it spoken many times that the difference between European and Japanese swordsmanship is that in the European style that the sword is the extension of the arm, whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?

[litige]

I've heard it spoken many times that the difference between European and Japanese swordsmanship is that in the European style that the sword is the extension of the arm, whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?

Because what you said is not right. The sword is an extension of the body, the body an extension of the mind. It's the saint-trinity man! When they say
"let the sword do the cut" they mean to not apply unecessary force, (that would "break the pattern"). Just like a golf swing.

[taganahan]

whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?
i think what this means is, that the arm is part of the sword not guided by the sword. people who take up the sword practices how to master it.

~taganahan

[hyuna]

If you follow a river to the sea, the river guides you.

What you are talking about is an East vs West thing, not so much a swordsmanship thing.

If you want to eat some bit of food, you might take the food and make it taste the way you want by seasoning it, putting sauce, using special preparation, and so on. The chef controls the flavor. The chef first chooses the flavor, and then coerces the food into it. This is like French food.

Alternatively, you might take fresh ingredients and highlight the flavor of the food. Simple preparation, light flavors. In this case, the chef works to harmonize with the food's "nature." The food has a flavor, and the chef works to bring it out, not replace it with a different one. In other words, the food controls the chef. This is like Japanese food.

This is just one example; it is easy to find others.

Honestly, I have no idea how this might apply specifically to swordsmanship.

[ben]

I've heard it spoken many times that the difference between European and Japanese swordsmanship is that in the European style that the sword is the extension of the arm, whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?

What you've been told is a nifty play on words, but not especially useful for understanding swordsmanship. Be wary of baseing (sp?) your inquiry on what is, in the end, a purely semantic construct: i.e. a dichotomy. Dichotomies do not actually exist outside the human mind. They are a purely contingent way of understanding reality. Sometimes, if they're very insightful (such as Arthur's cooking analogy), they can be useful. The one you mention certainly is "clever" but not insightful IMHO. I suspect that if you had practical experience of both fencing and kendo, you would have more valuable insight into the difference. In short, if you truly want to know the difference, go and practice both!

Actually to be entirely correct about kendo from a traditional kendo theory point of view, the sword and the body are one, not two. There is no distinction. For that matter the mind and the body are also one, not two. And your opponent and yourself are one, not two. Or rather all these things are neither one nor two, AND ALSO neither not-one, nor not-two. (How's that for mental construction? hehe!)

A better distinction might be, in the case of one-on-one duels with live blades, the aims of European and Japanese fencing were quite different. The main one was that a European fencer aimed to survive a duel. A Japanese fencer didn't.

Oops! Another dichotomy!

b

[Neil Gendzwill]

One big difference is that Japanese swordsmanship has been transmitted through a formal set of schools, each head instructor directly tranmitting the curriculum to the next, over hundreds of years. Whereas current western swordsmanship (FIE fencing aside) consists of reconstruction based on old manuals.

Another big difference is the evolution of weapons and armour together throughout european history, so that step by step each changed the other. Whereas the essential design of the nihonto hasn't changed a whole heck of a lot. So there's a lot of knowledge on how to use a nihonto, but the european swordsmanship is less focussed due to more diverse weaponry.

My interpretation - there's a lot of cool stuff in the old european methods but the reconstructionists are nowhere near to being as skilled as the koryu students from Japan - how can they be, they're learning from books? However if you look at the pictures you can see a lot of similar stances and techniques, especially when comparing the two-handed weapons.

[Wout]

I've heard it spoken many times that the difference between European and Japanese swordsmanship is that in the European style that the sword is the extension of the arm, whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?

on the other hand, how can an arm make a cut?
the actions a body makes depend on the tool you use, can you use a screwdriver to screw in a nail, or will you try to club somebody down with a spear? The tool you use for a purpose is as important as the person in regard to the way you want to achieve a certain end.

[Nanbanjin]

Sex appeal's the difference.

European swordsmanship sex appeal = http://the-aes.org/images/picture7.jpg

(Edit: take special note of the graffiti on the hand rail)


Kendo sex appeal = http://www.choyokan-kendo.org/images/Mvc-002f.jpg

[Wout]

:D makes me wanna be old and a sensei :D

[mystic_kendoka]

http://www.choyokan-kendo.org/images/Mvc-002f.jpg
man thats one lucky guy...

[D'Artagnan]

i bet he's just doing kendo for the chicks...

[Nanbanjin]

man thats one lucky guy...
That post is only really funny if you can read the graffiti on the handrail in the first picture.

[Nanbanjin]

i bet he's just doing kendo for the chicks...
Hey, that's why I'm doing it.

[Haowen]

That post is only really funny if you can read the graffiti on the handrail in the first picture.

I cannot see the first part...

I see the second part though.

[mystic_kendoka]

That post is only really funny if you can read the graffiti on the handrail in the first picture.
i c it....

[Nanbanjin]

I cannot see the first part...

I see the second part though.
I'm pretty sure the first bit is "I'm a fag". Maybe it's not that funny after all.

[louisvandalen]

Thanks god our warriors improved over the years:

http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/images/889/67.jpg

Best Regards,

Louis
www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)

[Haowen]

I'm pretty sure the first bit is "I'm a fag". Maybe it's not that funny after all.

The grafitti itself is not funny, but the picture is hilarious considering that the chap is probably unaware that he is posing next to the grafitti. :smiley:

[Hai_hai]

I've heard it spoken many times that the difference between European and Japanese swordsmanship is that in the European style that the sword is the extension of the arm, whereas in Japanese that the arm is the extension of the sword. In other words,in Japanese swordsmanship, the human is guided by the sword. So my question is, how can a person be guided by an INANIMATE object?
Actually, the Japanese idea is for you and the sword to become one. You do not want the sword to guide you, you want to guide the sword where you want it to go. This is almost like the European "extension of the arm" idea.
Both cultures have realized that the sword holder needs total control of their weapon in order to be most effective with it.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

However if you look at the pictures you can see a lot of similar stances and techniques, especially when comparing the two-handed weapons.
I haven't been able to lay a pointer on it, but somewhere on this site is a link to excerpts from a translation of an Italian or French fencing manual (diGrasse IIRC, which would make it Italian) from about the 16th century, which has, among other things, a woodblock print of a guy with a European two-handed in a credible jodan kamae and the same kind of single-hand cut you sometimes see made from jodan as well as versions of some kenjutsu waza I have seen demonstrated. I'll look again when I have more time unless somebody else comes up with it first.

[D'Artagnan]

I haven't been able to lay a pointer on it, but somewhere on this site is a link to excerpts from a translation of an Italian or French fencing manual (diGrasse IIRC, which would make it Italian) from about the 16th century, which has, among other things, a woodblock print of a guy with a European two-handed in a credible jodan kamae and the same kind of single-hand cut you sometimes see made from jodan as well as versions of some kenjutsu waza I have seen demonstrated. I'll look again when I have more time unless somebody else comes up with it first.

Also the techniques in the fencing manuals of Hans Talhoffer, of the 15th Century, bear a distinct resemblance to japanese tecniques. Obviously i refer to his works concerning the longsword (hand and half sword). It is and excellent book.

[YAMAFELL]

Once again my future sensei is pasted up as amusment. :tired:

I am sure he does like all the beautiful girls around him... :nervous: but he is also a very good teacher from what I have heard from my senpai.

Maybe the girls are just playing kendo to be with him? :cheeky: ever think of that one?

All you guys are just jealous...

[D'Artagnan]

All you guys are just jealous...


Damn right!

[Nanbanjin]

Once again my future sensei is pasted up as amusment. :tired:

I am sure he does like all the beautiful girls around him... :nervous: but he is also a very good teacher from what I have heard from my senpai.

Maybe the girls are just playing kendo to be with him? :cheeky: ever think of that one?

All you guys are just jealous...
Of course we're jealous. That's why he's the "with sex appeal" example.
If someone has something to complain about it's the western swordsmanship guy.

[YAMAFELL]

Haha, yes. Well then I am sure he will take it as a great compliment. ^_^

[Serenity]

http://www.choyokan-kendo.org/images/Mvc-002f.jpgNice photo! :ditsy: The boy who is trying to get in the picture (behind the girls) is so cute. :p And the girls are nice too... :D

Serenity :emb:

[litige]

And the girls are nice too... :D

Serenity :emb:

Now we're talking.

[Serenity]

Now we're talking.No comment. :wink:

Serenity :devious:

[Kichigai]

I believe "being guided by the sword" also refers, in a philosophical manner, to the inner intent and honor of one who studies the art. For Samurai (not all Bushi), the sword is their honor and their duty. Indeed, guidance by both things combined wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Willow]

Just from a practical point of view, western fencing is based on a stabbing form of attack where kendo (in my very limited experience) seems to aim to chop off limbs/heads etc. There is also more defensive retreating in fencing ( a reflex action which I am having to unlearn for kendo!), and the body is turned side-on to the opponent to minimise their chance of hitting.

[bullet08]

Just from a practical point of view, western fencing is based on a stabbing form of attack where kendo (in my very limited experience) seems to aim to chop off limbs/heads etc. There is also more defensive retreating in fencing ( a reflex action which I am having to unlearn for kendo!), and the body is turned side-on to the opponent to minimise their chance of hitting. depends on which weapon you use. foil and epee are thrust weapon.. sabre is for cut/slice, and also could be used for thrust. and there are much more target area compare to kendo.

japanese sword by design is for cut/slice. five general area for the points.

[Spencer]

Granted, as you said, the sports saber and shinai both use slashing movements. But the saber has a single-hand grip whereas the shinai is two-hand grip. So I wonder, how would that difference affect technique?

[satoshi]

Watching the Olympics, the contrast between Kendo vs. Fencing (and for that matter, Kyudo vs. Archery, Judo vs. Wresling etc.) is an interesting topic to think about. And I'm sure we can list similarities and differences in terms of the movements and techniques. But fundamentally the difference has to be found in the aspect of "do" - that kendo, kyudo, jyudo are ultimately not an exercise to learn the movement and techniques but a pursute to develop the human character. Defeating the opponent is a path or a tool to achieve that goal and not the goal itself. We are taught that if we put the technique in exercise at the correct opportunity, with correct footwork, kiai, maai, posture and tenouchi etc we can strike the target. But also we are taught that even if our shinai happened to land at the target, it does not necessarily mean that our technique was done at the correct opportunity, with correct footwork, maai ... etc and we are told to work harder.
I am sure fencing, archery, wresling etc also has its own cultural and historical background leading to various philosophical and spiritual teaching. But I wonder if the emphasis is more on rousing concentration and fighting spirit to efficiently defeat the opponent.
I think this is perhaps one way to resond to the original poster's question in this thread. For fencing scoring and winning is the goal; for kendo this is only a tool for further progress and perfection.

[Old Warrior]

I don't want to rehash a topic that has been beaten to death. European fencing has no tradition, as part of the learning process, beyond a quick salute with the blade to the director and your opponent. However, that is no commentary on the swormanship. The most significant differences are the weapon itself and the psychological mindset of the combattant. A European fencer wants, first, to parry and stay "alive". Second, the sword is not really a recreation of a military weapon, but a dueling tool. Very few Europeans (as a %) were skilled swordsman. They did not really have a "warrior class" whose job was martial prowess and swordsmanship.

Lastly, European fencing is usually taught, one on one, with the information spoon fed and then practiced through repetition over and over and over. I took lessons from a great European Maestro, twice a week, for well over a decade. After years, it appears to the uneducated, like a powerful ballet with swords.

I would say without question, that the skilled swordsman of each discipline probably have similar levels of skill. Without armor, on a flat terrain, anything could happen. I do however believe that the simple ability to put a point on target, favors the lighning thrust/lunge of an epeeist/foilist/sabreur (in European fencing the hand moves first and almost pulls the body forward). I am not opining on the outcome of a life/death encounter.

[mystic_kendoka]

im sure the samurai would win..
why?
The samurai looks cooler (instead of those weird tight pants they wore in those days).
There are very few animes or cartoons starring european fencers compared to the huge amount of Japanese Kenshi cartoons, so the Animes favour the samurai.
If there ever was a fight between the two, i would show up with a bokken and seal the fencers fate :)

[Kichigai]

As for Old Warrior's post, I have to disagree:

-European fencing history is indeed quite rich, well documented, and shares parallels to Kendo itself. In fact, fencing's current incarnation shares a direct relationship with previous fencing styles (for instance: Olympic sabre vs. traditional calvalry sabre) in the same manner that Kendo does for Kenjutsu.

-While it is true that Fencing does not retain the same Zen atmosphere as Kendo, the mindset is much more combative, and the whole "emphasis on staying alive" is far more complex than simple "parry, parry, thrust". At higher levels of fencing, complex and unbelievably hard defenses are learned which, at least in my opinion, trump nihon kendo kata in sheer complexity. One shouldn't simply discount this as "merely attempting to stay alive", but rather, as an ongoing calculation and reading of another's moves in order to activate certain chain-attacks. Also, new kendo defenses and returns are now invoking aspects of zen.

-Not all of fencing is just simply memorising moves, as you very well may know. The difference between pure practice and an actual duel is indeed the same as keiko and shiai, with much more mandated pracitices, rules, and a far more restricted area of advance and retreat (the piste).

That being said, I personally believe the difference, other than the very obvious weapons choices, is indeed the philosophy. European swordplay is based still on the concepts of complete martial combat, while Japanese Kendo, Iaido (and in some cases their bugei counterparts) extend the comparatively simple aspects of combat to deep philosophy. This is not to say European martial combat lacks honor and philosophy (see: chivalristic aspects within Fencing, traditional longsword and broadsword combat), but it does not synthesize it completely in the same manner.

Oh yeah, Kendoka, the bokuto may be a formidable weapon in the hands of a kenshi, much less a real katana, but try parrying an epee estoc, much less a foil.

Hey, just giving the Europeans a fighting chance here, hehe. I still favor my daito over a longsword, and would rather ride into combat in full samurai armor and a kabuto than european chain.

[satoshi]

Recently a Japanese TV organised a match between Kendo and Fencing.

http://titechfencers.at.infoseek.co.jp/images.html

It was a rather silly exercise, the outcome of which heavily depended on the rule (Fencing won), but it just shows that it is a topic that would never go away...

[Old Warrior]

"I have to disagree"

"fencing's current incarnation shares a direct relationship with previous fencing styles"

Yup, but modern fencers pay them no honor nor is history any part of the modern study. There is no tradition or custom built into the cirriculum.

"At higher levels of fencing, complex and unbelievably hard defenses are learned"

I've learned them. I can do them. But, most could never be performed nor would even be attempted, if life and death were at stake and sharps in use. Everything about Kendo surrounds simplicity, efficiency and elegance. No European fencer EVER had a discussion about the purity and elegance of movement. And, a katana can be had weighing less than 1000 grams and can be wielded just about the same as a shinai. A dueling epee would resemble a French gripped sport weapon, but no one would ever attempt those "complex and hard defenses" if their life was at stake.

"One shouldn't simply discount this as "merely attempting to stay alive", but rather, as an ongoing calculation and reading of another's moves in order to activate certain chain-attacks."

I admit to knowing little about Kendo. I've been privileged to train with and compete with some of the finest fencers the US has produced. Fencing is now about sport -period. The first and last thing you learn in European fencing is parrying. That is also why there are "right of way rules". It is designed to teach you to stay alive by defending first. I respect your right to disagree, but it is, what it is.

"Not all of fencing is just simply memorising moves"

It's about creating muscle memory so you react without thinking.

"The difference between pure practice and an actual duel is indeed the same as keiko and shiai, with much more mandated pracitices, rules, and a far more restricted area of advance and retreat (the piste)"

Nope. Nobody cares if you kiai in European fencing. Nobody cares if you are awkward, clumsy and only hit your opponents hand as he comes in. Nobody discusses the relationship with sempai/kohei because you learn, one and one, with the Maestro and bout with your salle mates. Drilling is rare and most fencers would make a mental note of your mistakes and never tell you.

"European swordplay is based still on the concepts of complete martial combat"

Then explain the fleche, the flick and the toe touch AND why the piste is 4' wide.

"This is not to say European martial combat lacks honor and philosophy"

It's not my thesis that there is no history, only that - Today, Nobody Cares.

"Hey, just giving the Europeans a fighting chance here, hehe."

Don't misinterpret what I am saying. I do Kendo well beyond my 20 months of study for a reason. Epee fencing taught me distance, timing, the combat mindset, reading body movement, relaxation/energy conservation, explosive movement from rest, etc. etc. But, it's a different discipline and comparisons to Kendo are only good fodder for discussion.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

a katana can be had weighing less than 1000 grams and can be wielded just about the same as a shinai.
In comparison contrast the sport sabres used in the Olympics with a reproduction of a period sabre http://www.coldsteel.com/88ns.html. I don't know if any of the other olympic fencing events made it to TV or not, sabre was all I caught.

As far as the empasis on "staying alive" I have heard that the design of kendo is more concerned with showing bravery and spirit, while kenjutsu is/was more concerned with the practical matters of ending a sword fight with you alive and the other guy dead. (As diGrasse very mildly puts it "a double kill is to be avoided":) ) Is there anybody on here who can give any perspective on the possibly different approaches between kendo and kenjutsu?

[Old Warrior]

"In comparison contrast the sport sabres used in the Olympics with a reproduction of a period sabre http://www.coldsteel.com/88ns.html."

This one is 38 oz. In European fencing the blade is controlled by the thumb and forefinger. Do you think you could really wield a blade weighing over 2 lbs. with 2 fingers? All of this plays into my thesis; which is that European Fencing is about modern sport, not budo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm not sure you can get a shinken under 1000 g. 900 g is a iaito, most shinken designed for iai are 1200 g. Ones which are designed for cutting are a little heavier.

OW, you asked why the piste is 4' wide. Did you really find that width to be restrictive? In kendo most actions are back and forth. The only reason for the square fighting area is because of what happens after the action - taiatari and rebound, heading off on an angle... In FIE fencing, the bout is halted after each action so there's never a chance for people to get more offline.

[Old Warrior]

"OW, you asked why the piste is 4' wide. Did you really find that width to be restrictive? In kendo most actions are back and forth. In FIE fencing, the bout is halted after each action so there's never a chance for people to get more offline."

I never really thought about it, because it was simply one of rules. It keeps your opponent directlly in front of you and thus there is no place to hide. You can only retreat so far and then you have to fight or leave the strip (and lose). If you are timid, the first few times you realize you must fight or (theoretically) die, are those life "moments of truth", when you see the kind of stuff of which you are made. It really is a great background for Kendo, in that you learn the combat mindset and get accustomed to being "hit". Unfortunately, as a beginner in Kendo, I still lacked all the tools to fight skillfully, within the rules and thus my level of skill in Kendo is a fraction of that I had as an epeeist.

But, the context of my comment about the piste, was in the relationship between martial art vs. sport. Real combat is not confined to a level, 4' wide, 40' long arena - modern fencing is and therefore you don't learn lateral movement and you always try and present as little of your body to the opponent, as possible. In fencing you wear special light weight sneakers with soles that are rounded on the heels, with minimal lateral support. Even younger fencers wear heel cups to take the trauma from the knees. I never even considered that I was training for a real duel, although learning epee is about as close as you can come to the real thing.

[Kozushi]

If you went back to old Samurai times and compared Fencers with Samurai swordsmen, you would find their skills very much the same. It is only in the past 200 years with the invention of Japanese bogu with shinai and European fencing masks with 'safe' swords that they both became so distinct. The rules of each sport/budo dictate the kind of training done. Kendo restricts the target area to only safe targets on the armour. Fencing doesn't restrict the target as much (although this varies per weapon) but uses rather lightweight swords in order to prevent injury. Both styles compromise reality for safety. In fact, Kendo even compromises reality for 'style', since it requires the Zanshin follow-through to make the point count: so the first solid strike doesn't win; in reality, this could mean death. I even have a theory that the preference for thrusting in Europe was a result of safety during training. You see, the old fencers of the 16th and 17th Centuries, when they practiced competitively with each other, used a stick with a tennis-ball attached to the end to soften the blow and to prevent it from penetrating the eye-socket. The only really 'safe' was to practice with such weapons was to thrust. If you hit each other with the sticks, you would break bones and so on. Thus, fencers got really good at fighting with the point, and they ended up making theories on how the point is the best part to attack with in order to justify what they were doing. To prove tht they were basically wrong, look at a sabre match: notice that most points are scored with edgeblows and not thrusts, even though both are allowed. The katana is ideal to thrust with, since the right hand can be released from the grip and the left hand thrust suddenly forward very far. But, stabbing repeatedly to the opponent's Do would wreck it and/or the shinai; only the stab to the cushioned throat is allowed because it won't jar the shinai too much. You see, safety and equipment both dictated the ways in which the two arts developed. As for Fencing on the battlefield: yes it was used on the battlefield and not just in duels.

[mingshi]

*YAWN*

Stop trolling, please. Tell me something that I don't know.

[Kozushi]

The piste was a safety measure too: to make sure the fencers in the Salle didn't bang into each other while fencing.

[Kozushi]

*YAWN*

Stop trolling, please. Tell me something that I don't know.Who, me? Is all this stuff well known?

[kenshin13]

Hehe, this reminds me of what a sensei said to me. " Fencers fight sideways because it makes the target size smaller. And the samurai back then didnt care they just wanted to chop their damn heads off! You know what i mean?"

(laughs) he's funny.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

i think what this means is, that the arm is part of the sword not guided by the sword. people who take up the sword practices how to master it.

~taganahan
PPl who take up the sword practise the mind and spirit in order to let the sword master its own way......... 1 is not the extention of the other; you ARE one with the other........

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Watching the Olympics, the contrast between Kendo vs. Fencing (and for that matter, Kyudo vs. Archery, Judo vs. Wresling etc.) is an interesting topic to think about. And I'm sure we can list similarities and differences in terms of the movements and techniques. But fundamentally the difference has to be found in the aspect of "do" - that kendo, kyudo, jyudo are ultimately not an exercise to learn the movement and techniques but a pursute to develop the human character. Defeating the opponent is a path or a tool to achieve that goal and not the goal itself. We are taught that if we put the technique in exercise at the correct opportunity, with correct footwork, kiai, maai, posture and tenouchi etc we can strike the target. But also we are taught that even if our shinai happened to land at the target, it does not necessarily mean that our technique was done at the correct opportunity, with correct footwork, maai ... etc and we are told to work harder.
I am sure fencing, archery, wresling etc also has its own cultural and historical background leading to various philosophical and spiritual teaching.
I soooo agree on that statement...........and I think most western originated 'sports' were invented as entertainment mostly.........

[Chusan]

I`ve been practising both Fencing and Kendo for more than two decades now.
Of course there are differences - but the general idea, the strategy and even the heart if the techniques are the same.
Different persons have different levels of approaching their arts. You may like the sports-aspects both in Kendo and in Fencing as you may like the more spiritual aspects. You get from it what you want and what you seek.

[Tato]

.... The chef first chooses the flavor, and then coerces the food into it. This is like French food.

..... In other words, the food controls the chef. This is like Japanese food.

.....

An small clarification, real French food respects the thrue flavor of ingredients, most of the preparations tend to preserve them. What a big part of the worlds think as french cuisine is in fact a bastardization of it (something like thinkin that in Spain we all eat paella and tapas, and calling that the spanish cuisine)

About western fencing:

Is there any historic account of a duel or fight between Samurai and Westerners in the 16 or 17 centuries? When the Portuguese frecuented Japan. I think that this will provide some kind of background.

D.