Sore thumbs from tai-atari

[Nanbanjin]

This is a translation for one of the guys I train with.
I'll take the liberty of posting it here.

Please let me know if anyone else has advice to add.

Sorry that the translation is so crappy. If you want to see the original try here:

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/755582316619442.html

You'll see that I didn't translate the full thread.



Take.-san
A question regarding hands during tai-atari.
We are training tai-atari because it is an effective technique to use following datotsu. We are training to do tai-atari with force from our hips, but I find that when I clash with my opponent both thumbs get caught between my shinai and my do. This hurts. I am trying to hold my shinai from above, but I think I might be holding the shinai to the side at the moment when I clash with my opponent. Is there anyone who has had similar experiences, and anyone who can offer advice about how to avoid this.
Your thumbs are getting caught between your shinai and do because your wrists aren't upright when you do tai-atari. If you do tai-atari whith your wrists held firmly upright (to the extent that you feel like your thumbs are pointing forward) your thumbs wont get caught any more.
I haven't worn bogu for many years and only practice kendo in my memory, but I would like to make a passing comment.
The kendo instructor who looked after me at junior high school had this to say about holding your wrists upright: "When you do tai-atari you should grip your tenouchi as you would for cutting men-uchi".
So I would grip tenouchi at the point of tai-atari, clashing with a feeling of stamping in (with fumi-komi) with my lower body.
In reality I would step in from my waist (fumi-komi) firmly but not over-vigorously. I wouldn't use actual fumi-komi.
I thought that this was a really easy explanation to understand, and have always hoped to be able to pass it on to someone, but since then I have never been asked about tai-atari. In practice you don't often have the opportunity to have how to do tai-atari explained.
In one of the previous topics I noticed that someone wrote about the "Effect of tai-atari" that gives a good summary of tai-atari, and reading I remembered a lot of things.
Our instructor taught us things like omote-kuzushi and ura-kuzushi. I remember that breaking your opponents guard using the power of their reactive pressure and hitting hiki-waza was quite diffucult, maybe because the person being hit knew what was happening. It was hard to get your breathing right and I remember it being quite a difficult training menu. People who have studied aikido might understand this type of breathing better. I never managed to get it right (sorry Sensei!).
The technical details of tai-atari and tsuba-zeriai may differ from dojo to dojo, but generally there aren't many opportunities to receive specific instruction.
If you get the hang of tsuba-zeriai it can be quite enjoyable, but it isn't heavily researched and tends to end up being a bit wooden.
I feel sad that we have ended up with rules like "wakare".
Personally I approached tsuba-zeriai training with great affection, to the extent that I would go to training saying "lets do tsuba-zeriai!", but we always ended up training tobi-komi-uchi. Looking back I wish we had trainined more tsuba-zeriai.
Sorry tsuba-zeriai!
I seem to have gotten off the topic of tai-atari.

Anyway, to Take-san,
I think "When doing tai-atari, grip tenouchi like when you hit men-uchi!!!"
In practice your elbows are bent so I don't think you will get quite the same tenouchi as when you hit men. There is no need to hit with your fist, but if you squeeze your tenouchi at the point of impact the power of your hips, or maybe even the power of the ground, will be effectively transferred to your opponent. Maybe.
When hitting men, kote or tai-atari, the tilt of your body is a bit different, but the basic way your use your body is the same. Swinging your shinai every day, you will learn to move your hips forward by just squeezing tenouchi.
I have never spoken with other people about tai-atari so I don't even really know if this explanation is correct.
I apologise for giving an explanation that I have no confidence in. If asked whether I was able to win or not using this style, I'd have to say that I lost more shiai than I won.

[taganahan]

i kinda have that same problem but i never had any problem with my thumbs hurting. my hands were a bit resting on my do or sometimes mune if the opponent is taller. people corrected me cause if you do this one, you will get pushed back easilly.

~taganahan

[Neil Gendzwill]

It really depends on who's instructing taiatari. I have received instruction from some sensei to use doh to doh contact, basically taiatari as bumping bellies. I don't like this style because it traps the hands and I don't feel like I have as much opportunity coming out of it, nor as much control over the opponent while in it. I like a little seperation, with the push coming from my hands not my belly. Don't get me wrong, I'm still using hip to push, not arm, I just let my arms be connected to my hips if that makes any sense. My wrists are therefore aligned as they normally would be. To get my thumbs crushed, I'd have to let the grip go completely open, so after seperation that's another delay while the correct grip is re-attained.

[Hai_hai]

Hmm, that translation was rough. I'll give my response in a rough translation so it goes back into Japanese smoothly.

You know the true power of the battle when the rising of the energy. Thinking about the inner strength, win without thinking of the voluntary action.
Focus the forward direction exploding backwards into peaceful mind, like tea leaves. Banzai Banzai BANZAI!

[Nanbanjin]

Thanks for the advice.

Hai_hai 様

先のを訳したら、一文字で「？」でよろしいでしょうか？
アドバイスを願います。

[Hai_hai]

You're welcome.
I've read enough Japanese after-market auto parts advertisements, e.g. 5-Zigen, to know things get lost in translation.