Agressive vs Non-agressive

[KoXinelle]

Hi all
I've been playing Kendo for 6 months now and I am part of those very agressive females, luckily or not. I learned how to control my agressivity as to reach a more mental keiko.
It helps me a lot when playing against men but I never know exactly how I should play with females. I'm afraid of scaring them away from Kendo. Only my Kiai has already a lot of power on those that just got their bogu. Most of the time, I try to only focus on my technique and my form while playing against them but I'm not sure if it's good to protect them from the agressivity they will surely face at some point.
All the books I've read say that one should give the best no matter who he's playing against. Yet, isn't it too hard on beginners? Also, since I've been playing with lots of beginners, I couldn't give my best when playing against non agressive experimented kendoka that I've never faced before as if this over-protecting feeling was controlling me.
Have any of you had to deal with this problem? I'd like to know from those of you that are more experimented what attitude do you think I should adopt in those situations.

[taganahan]

i used to be agressive. i would always attack no matter what the other guy is doing. but i found out that being agressive is not everything. sometimes you need to wait for that perfect timing, sometimes you need to retreat to get control.

as for the other problem, i agree that you should give your best kendo no matter who they are. you don't want someone to give the impression that kendo is child's play, don't you? also this will distinguish who will stay and who will not stay.

~taganahan

[Wout]

.
All the books I've read say that one should give the best no matter who he's playing against. Yet, isn't it too hard on beginners? Also, since I've been playing with lots of beginners, I couldn't give my best when playing against non agressive experimented kendoka that I've never faced before as if this over-protecting feeling was controlling me.
Well it's true that you always should give your best, but that doesn't mean when you face a beginner you should try to make as much points as possible with constantly doin small men after small men in keiko. try to make points with with a big men, or try different shikake and oji waza's. When I I do keiko agains who is just in bogu I just try to get the first point as fast as possible, after that I just kinda try what works and what needs working on with on occasion just going for a point (it goes without saying that the second category is considerably larger than the first, actually there is nothing that does work, as in flawless every time).
If you are considered about discouraging ppl, do not just block every strike they make, it's not going to help you and it is very discouraging. Well I get discouraged anyways.

[hyuna]

"Aggressive" isn't just hitting a lot. When you watch a match between 8-dan sensei, they don't hit a lot but they each aggressively try to control center and control each other.

You should always do your best kendo. The question is if your best kendo is something that people should find scary. Even when I was a beginner, I never found practicing with sensei to be discouraging or frightening.

[richard haly]

My understanding is that one should adopt a rank of one degree/kyu higher than the person one is fencing when fencing juniors, i.e. a rokudan fencing a shodan should fence as though he/she is nidan. This stretches the lower rank enough without dominating or defeating their spirits.

Richard

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's very difficult to play just a little bit better than the person you're facing, especially with only 6 months experience. OTOH it is very discouraging for a new person, especially one with confidence problems, to get beaten into the ground - avoid that. When playing people who are much worse than you, view it as an opportunity to work on your kihon. I suggest you take fewer points, but when you choose to take a point, do it to the best of your ability. Give your opponent a chance to take points too, don't shut them down completely.

[kanyil]

it's all about your intent. as long as you are not being nasty about it I think that's fine. a fairly small sempai at my dojo was (in)famous for, while fencing kohais, liking to get close and make a series (anywhere between 6 to 10ish) of strikes which are both painful (he hits hard, but for some reason misses the bogu quite often at that range, think your elbows when he tries for kote, and you know where when he tries for doh, if he's feeling particularly feisty he might even tsuki you anywhere above your tare) and ineffective (too close, hitting with the middle of the shinai etc).

He's actually a good kendoka overall, we don't know why he does these close combos but it felt quite...uncalled for? I guess it must be his secret-technique-in-progress or something.

after a while all the kohais caught on to him, and decides to tai-atari him strongly whenever he tries to get close as he is a fairly small guy. the other sempais just shrug when we do that, I think they find it rather amusing.

[DCPan]

liking to get close and make a series (anywhere between 6 to 10ish) of strikes which are both painful...

He's actually a good kendoka overall, we don't know why he does these close combos but it felt quite...uncalled for?

That happens to me when I "give up" during keiko. Of course, each sensei is different. Some sensei like you to go all out, when you can't do anymore, just bow out. Other sensei like you to keep going until they dismiss you. If you stop "working", it's open season with you as the uchikomi dai.

The Taoyuan folks have something similar called the "sixty". Basically, they train in kakari-keiko in 1 min rotations where you are expected to make sixty strokes within that period of time.

During the team matches, if they are down and time-limit is close, their teammate/coach will "cheer/encourage" their teammate in a very specific way, and that person will proceed to "kakari-keiko" his opponent until he can squeeze in a shot.

FWIW.

[taganahan]

a fish that was placed inside the aquarium died after a few minutes. the same kind of fish was placed/released under the sea and the fish didn't not die.

moral is, some people react well with pressure and some don't.

~taganahan

[berghaan]

A sensei once told me "Use aggression, not violence"
Since that day my fighting has really changed.

[KoXinelle]

Thanks for all your replies.

As expected, I got lots of different answers.. I see that the agression was reminded a lot as being a "thought" process and not the instinctive agression.
Well, today during my training with beginners (I won't say lower ranked not being ranked myself), I kept all of my agression almost without making strikes. Mostly, what I did was to show a lot of intent, with really deep Kiai and I made them use a lot of ashi sabaki by moving all over the place. I noticed that it activated some deeper desire of being reactive in most of them than when I was confused about how I should play. Also, I only striked when they really lost their center or when they were too confused to react to an opening I gave them.

I guess that's a way for me too to never switch off my attention.. And it gets easier to know what to do after having already went against them two or three times. Some things work with some of them, some others should be put to the side.

[Hai_hai]

Hi all
I've been playing Kendo for 6 months now... Have any of you had to deal with this problem? I'd like to know from those of you that are more experimented what attitude do you think I should adopt in those situations.
Don't bother holding back.

[KingCanute]

hai hai can be a bit thoughtless. just let them get a few good shots in to encourage them and then really show them how its done. Use them to practice don't aim to bring them to their knees. However, since you are not their sensei, they are less likely to be encouraged or put off kendo by your actions. Alternatively, if no-one else in the dojo is tough on them maybe you should. It will show them that female kendoka's are not to be messed with and build character.

[Hai_hai]

There's a saying, if you don't use it, you lose it. You, at six months, don't have anything to lose yet.

[Anime12478]

I don't think you should hold back whenever you have a match with a beginner. When I start doing shiai myself, I want to know how to improve my Kendo. Besides, it is better to get dissappointed now then it is to get overconfident in the beginning and thrown off the horse later. I wouldn't expect my seniors to hold back on me and I wouldn't want them to either.

[nodachi]

You have to hold back somewhat or the beginner is just gonna get creamed. Do you expect your sensei to go all out on you when you practice with them?

My sensei and even sempai seem very good, always better than me, but close in ability. They give you that IMPRESSION so you have a chance. Granted, most points you get are gifts, but you have a chance.

When I watch them at tournaments when they hold nothing back, it's a completely different story. They more like 400% faster and do more advanced waza, etc.

I know this is an extreme example, but you need to give beginners a chance to grow and that requires the advanced people to not go 100%.

[berghaan]

You would have to be carefull not getting a bad mentallity when you always train with "beginners". If you dont go your own 100% in regular practice, will you be able to go that 100% when you have to?

Sensei usually are beyond this point and can set their fighting to an appropriate "setting". This comes from experience.

I believe that if the levels of experience between the people isnt too much you should give your 100% all the time. Even if there is a big difference then sometimes you should give them 100% in gikeiko to show them and to keep your own mind fresh.

Ofcourse you would let them (beginners) finish good movements if they do something really good.

[taiwnezboi]

There's a saying, if you don't use it, you lose it. You, at six months, don't have anything to lose yet.

at 6 months I was just beginning to spar.. how much better than beginners can you be after practicing for only 6 months?

[Hai_hai]

You have to hold back somewhat or the beginner is just gonna get creamed. Do you expect your sensei to go all out on you when you practice with them?....
I had a senpai go all out during keiko. I was constantly getting hit in the middle of my attacks. No simultaneous hits.
I got creamed.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Rereading the original poster, I may have interpreted her wrong. What I inferred from her post was that she was worried about intimidating other women who were much less aggressive than she is. It's not a matter of skill, it's one of personality. We've got a similar woman in our dojo - even with very little time in, she was able to beat other girls due to size and aggression. She won fights in her first tournament against much more experienced opponents due to this.

In this case, I made my advice, which was to back off and go for fewer attacks of higher quality. This will allow the less aggressive woman to work on her kendo without getting constantly hammered, and perhaps allow the OP to work on her own form without relying on speed/aggression.

Normally I would advise just to make your best kendo at that level as 6 month beginners shouldn't have to adjust for their opponents.

[KoXinelle]

Lately we've had lots of new people in bogu and it's been a different experience with all of them. Still, I guess I have some problem in my head because I can't give the best of my kendo when playing against them. I feel like if I was being mean to them if I really gave my best, even though I know I'm really not helping them at all. On the other hand, I have no problems at all with my sempais or those that started with me.


at 6 months I was just beginning to spar.. how much better than beginners can you be after practicing for only 6 months?
Probably not much :) I got in bogu really early though (only two months after I started Kendo), too early maybe. I had an acceptable timing really quickly and didn't stop getting better. I might not have a much better Kendo than they do, but I have months of jikeiko that they don't... trust me, it makes a big difference!! Maybe not for long though. There's one new guy in bogu that I know already will be better than I am in no time!!

[KoXinelle]

You would have to be carefull not getting a bad mentallity when you always train with "beginners". If you dont go your own 100% in regular practice, will you be able to go that 100% when you have to?

Sensei usually are beyond this point and can set their fighting to an appropriate "setting". This comes from experience.

I believe that if the levels of experience between the people isnt too much you should give your 100% all the time. Even if there is a big difference then sometimes you should give them 100% in gikeiko to show them and to keep your own mind fresh.

Ofcourse you would let them (beginners) finish good movements if they do something really good.
I guess I need more practise with people that just got their bogu to figure out how to make it work. I think that if I set myself to give the best I wouldn't be able to not react if they are doing something really good. I've been focusing on peoples flaws (including mine) but not much on people's strengths. I know I have the ability to control my attitude, but I still lack observational skills.
For the first question, I have sempais with whom I have no problem giving a 100% so I'm not inhibating (does this word exist in english?? ) my kendo.

[darren]

I think that the keiko is there for the both of you to enjoy. I also think that the senior student has an onus to teach to a point.

Show some variety. The kohai will know if you are holding back sometimes and might be ticked that you are treating them like a baby. But slowing down and showing some suki will allow them to practice their kendo.

The sempai switching gears and 'taking them to school' allows both to gain experience in that regard. The kohai knows they aren't being babied and in fact learns to practice and find out a little about how to counter, stay away and take a beating. :) The sempai can try larger and cleaner form given the many openings.

Of course when the call for ippon is made everyone must put their best style forward.

[samurai999]

I was told when I practice against a newbie, practice seme. I found out that against beginners, it is really hard making waza work because they usually have no center or "shinai focus" (ie wave shinai like wand). Instead, it is a way to see how strong your seme is. Usually, if i try any waza, its usually debana men.

Tim

[taiwnezboi]

beginners don't know anything about distance.. most of the time all you have to do is take one step in and hit a men.. I used to just keep doing this but I figured they really weren't learning anything from it so now I just go a little easier and try to practice techniques I'm working on

[yangs]

I think you should not hold anything back when playing with beginers. They will have to walk their way through it. If they could, congradulations, you have many new strong kendoka in your club.

My sensei, when keiko, usually beat us up. He first let us hit him until we are out of air, then start to hit continuously. If you can't response to his attacks, he will push you into wall with a tsuki, or hit away your shinai and pushes you onto floor. He said kendo is ment to try your best regardless of how tired or any situation you are facing. He always add that everytime we walk through it, we become stronger both mentally and physically.

I am an agressive player. However, my another sensei told me to focus more on forms and correct kendo when playing beginers. So I always try to forget those little tricks and use basic men, kote strikes.

[Willow]

Hi everybody. I’m new to kendo and new to the forum. This is my first post.



I’ve been following this discussion with interest because I have just recently started sparring and I’m trying to figure out how aggressive you need to be. I have certainly had aggressive feelings when sparring and while it gives an adrenaline rush and a sensation of being hyper-alert and have the feeling that it can also be used against you by an experienced fighter.



I suppose my questions are: Is aggression a useful thing or a negative thing for kendo? While it can intimidate some opponents, does a reliance on it make you a bit ‘second rate’ and always vulnerable to attacks by more experienced fighters who are calmer and have their judgement less clouded by emotion?



My most recent sparring experience was with a guy who started learning kendo at the same time as me but who already has a black belt in another martial art. He was totally calm, totally focused, used no aggression and totally kicked my butt. OK I’m not much of a challenge (yet!) but he is doing the same to bigger more experienced guys at our dojo who tend to rely on aggression and strength. The look on their faces when he gets them is priceless…



I hope all these questions are not too ignorant. I find kendo fascinating but the more I learn about it, the more I realise there is still to learn.

[Old Warrior]

"He was totally calm, totally focused, used no aggression and totally kicked my butt."

Firstly, you need to understand the difference between the pressure you exert on your opponent (what I see as real aggression) from ferocity/frequency of movement. It is possible to be very agressive and yet have little movement except the explosion of your attack. Some opponents try ineffective after ineffective attacks and to the casual observer it looks like aggression. The better way is to remain ever alert and relaxed until the instant of your attack.

I find that with good posture and contol over the center you can push back many opponents without ever striking or you can force them to commit to an improvident attack. If its someone who has some level of respect for your skill level they are not likely to blindly charge in swinging. I rarely use frenetic movement for a number of reasons. First, in competition the action stops after a score and you want to give the impression that your attack was successful, rather than just moving into another try. Second, if the goal is graceful effective kendo, chopping away seems contra to what you are supposed to be learning. On the hand sometimes we spar for a sixed time without scoring and some of the teenagers want to vent their excess energy by banging away on you. On a rare occasion I will crank it up just to make the point that I too can be ruthlessly ferocious, so the next time they will reconsider just pounding away on me.

[tapioka]

I'm a female kendo 2kyuu (16 yrs old)--and that pretty much explains flat-out that I'm also a somewhat "aggressive" kenshi. but I find that my aggression mainly comes out when I am face-to-face with a 5'7'' big guy with a whopping size 39 shinai.

depending on the situation, women like us may need to show different levels of aggression, but, the challenge is to prevent it from going out of control.

I think by showing excessive aggression, the opponent can read you and easily knock off a point. controlled aggression can get your zanshin pounding through your opponent to get all three of your flags flying.

so note to Willow-san: in this way, I believe aggression can do you good, or no good, depending on how skilled you are at controlling it.

[Old Warrior]

"I find that my aggression mainly comes out when I am face-to-face with a 5'7'' big guy with a whopping size 39 shinai."

I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, do you think physical aggression by someone your size has any intimidation factor from someone like me? If you came on really strong and crashed into me, you would bounce off. If you took your hardest swing and missed the target, do you think making me angry would help?

I'm not suggesting that I am more skiled or that you could not best me every time. But, the only way you could defeat someone my size is to use your speed, stamina and skill. Angering a sleeping giant is a bad idea, especially if they have a lower level of skill.

Just to clue you in on what I'm thinking if I faced you and you had my level of experience/skill (or more) - I would want to show you my best and cleanest kendo. I want to be careful that when the bout is over you will want to bout with me again. I don't want my size and strength to cause injury because I missed a valid target area or hit too hard. I am not going to give you a break and I am going to try my best. But if you get uncontrolled, I would try and suggest to you (through a similar response) that uncontrolled aggression is a game you ought not to play, because it could hurt more than you realize.

[taiwnezboi]

it's also about reading the opponent... if I can tell someone is overly aggressive I'm going to keep my head cool and keep back and let them tire themselves out.. if I can tell they're backing off constantly and afraid then I'm going to get more aggressive

[tapioka]

"I find that my aggression mainly comes out when I am face-to-face with a 5'7'' big guy with a whopping size 39 shinai."

I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs, do you think physical aggression by someone your size has any intimidation factor from someone like me? If you came on really strong and crashed into me, you would bounce off. If you took your hardest swing and missed the target, do you think making me angry would help?


thank you Old Warrior, I see your point. :)
but what I was trying to say was not really about physical aggression. more like mental aggression, with the use of seme, kiai, and zanshin all combined with speed, etc. but I understand clearly what you mean and I thank you.