Honest/ Sincere/ Kendo

[baysun]

I was wondering about what your ideas about honest kendo or sincere kendo.
Sometimes in translations of Kendo Magazines/ books the words, Honest Kendo, and Sincere Kendo come up.This is not a trick question, because I think it depends on the various stages of developement we go through in Kendo training.

What do these words mean to you?

[nodachi]

Honest/sincere kendo to me is like doing true, perfect form kendo. You go for good clean waza, no crazy head ducking to avoid oncoming hits, etc. Focusing on good form so as to find your weaknesses to fix them, rather than being cheaty and sloppy in order to hide that weakness and get sloppy points instead of nice strong ones.

I think another part of sincere kendo is your partner practicing in the same manner so you both grow and help each other together.

Acknowledge good strikes that your partner does against you. Example, ippon shobu situation where the opponent gets a good, clean point on you. You acknowledge it and "lose" (although only in the shiai sense) but you learn from your fault and they learn from good striking opportunity or whatever contributed to the good point.

No ego kendo.

[Anime12478]

I say that honest Kendo is partly what nodachi said and what others are thinking and will probably type in the future. But a big part for me is that true Kendo is practicing the art for your own purposes. If you do it because it's cool, you want to look rich since equipment is not cheap, or you want to look like Tom Cruise, you are not only lying to yourself but you are lying to the senseis that are taking time out of their schedule to teach you and your partners that are doing their best to make the experience good for themselves and others. You must be honest to yourself and reality before you can be honest to anything else in life.

[Bodaishin]

I have yet no idea, how to make a partial quote :confused2 , so:

Anime12478 wrote: "But a big part for me is that true Kendo is practicing the art for your own purposes."

having read the thead(s) regarding the connection between Kendo and Zen/Buddhism - or more precisely the impact of the latter on Kendo - I was wondering: is praticing Kendo for your own purposes Kendo? - or can you practice kendo for the benefit of (all) other sentient beings (to use such hilarious words) - or in a l'art pour l'art fashion: practice for practice with a mushotoku mind, without goal, without seeking for profit and fame - to use words of ancient zen teachers?

[D'Artagnan]

Acknowledge good strikes that your partner does against you. Example, ippon shobu situation where the opponent gets a good, clean point on you. You acknowledge it and "lose" (although only in the shiai sense) but you learn from your fault and they learn from good striking opportunity or whatever contributed to the good point.

No ego kendo.


Losing is winning. :)

[Anime12478]

I guess what I said kinda came out wrong. That is what I get when I type at midnight when I felt tired several hours ago. I should have put it as practicing to your fullest everytime you go to practice. You should have a goal or it is like walking the wrong way on a conveyor belt. As hard as you try, you won't reach the "end" which is whatever goal you have. If you do it just to be doing it, then you won't be getting anywhere and you won't be practicing to your fullest.

[Bodaishin]

If you do it just to be doing it, then you won't be getting anywhere and you won't be practicing to your fullest.well, I hope I can get through the language barrier (not a native speaker as you may have very well found out already); but I do not quite see your argument here: what would hinder you from practicing to your fullest while 'do it just to be doing it'?My question was with regards to this as well: do you have to have a goal to practice (good) Kendo? - do you have one?

You have to put yourself 100% into practice; but (for me at least) that means: to be present, here and now; and not to put 100% for a goal to be achieved... and that means that today the 100% can be less (observed from outside) than the 100% of yesterday....:rolleyes:

[not-I]

[...] practice for practice with a mushotoku mind, without goal, without seeking for profit and fame [...]?
i think the simple answer is that one can do anything with that state of mind, whether it be kendo, zazen, or washing the dishes.

it's logical: if you're not going anywhere
any road is the right one -Ikkyû Sôjun

i agree with you that when practicing kendo, or anything else, it is beneficial to be 100% present without thoughts of ego or goals, which is difficult, but not impossible, especially over time. however, this itself is also a goal and a classical zen paradox, meant to be resolved through practice.

goals are just thoughts, and as such, there is nothing wrong with them, but in reality, they're empty of essence. short-term goals during keiko like improving your fumi-komi or scoring a clean men, or medium-term goals like advancing in rank can be helpful, but attachment to them will always become a hinderance.

[emitbrownne]

I have yet no idea, how to make a partial quote :confused2 Just click the Quote button on the bottom right of the box you wish to quote.

The text will then appear in your reply within two boxes looking like this :) quoted text here :)

please note I have spelt QUOTE incorrectly so as to display the text instead of it taking effect.

hope this helps :)

[Bodaishin]

trying to quote right :)

goals are just thoughts, and as such, there is nothing wrong with them, but in reality, they're empty of essence. short-term goals during keiko like improving your fumi-komi or scoring a clean men, or medium-term goals like advancing in rank can be helpful, but attachment to them will always become a hinderance.
Agree. I beleive that non-attachment might be the key; or to start with: the acknowledgement or realisation (don't find the good english word for: észlelés which is in Hungarian best describes what I want to say) of the existence attachment.

then; subsequently, you may start 'working on it' and get rid of the attachment slowly...

however, this itself is also a goal and a classical zen paradox, meant to be resolved through practice.
dunno... when you are mushotoku you may notice (acknowledge) and when you are sanran or kontin you can notice (accept) that as well...

observation and concentration.
concentration and observation.

shifting and exchanging all the time...

[ben]

Chiba Masashi sensei who was in Melbourne last weekend reminded us that true kendo training should always engender a feeling of gratitude towards our opponent. We are grateful to them for allowing us to cut them, because they show us when we have achieved yuko datotsu. We are just as grateful to them for when they cut us, because they have taught us where our weak points are. This is another way of saying what Nodachi said.

The frightening moment in kendo is when you realise that your teachers have always seen through your tricks and they've persevered with you anyway. There is nowhere to hide in jigeiko. The most unfortunate in this instance are the precociously gifted, because they can fool themselves and others for a while that their skill is sincere. Fortunately for all of us, there is a point in kendo where skill stops and kokoro continues. Cultivating sincerity and a kendo that is "seiseidodo" (honest and straightforward) is something open to everyone. Following the "Way" in this manner undoubtedly benefits all sentient beings.

There is a quote from somewhere that is about this:

"As you pile practice upon practice, year upon year, it is like a light going on by itself in the dark."

b

[Nanbanjin]

Chiba Masashi sensei who was in Melbourne last weekend reminded us that true kendo training should always engender a feeling of gratitude towards our opponent. We are grateful to them for allowing us to cut them, because they show us when we have achieved yuko datotsu. We are just as grateful to them for when they cut us, because they have taught us where our weak points are. This is another way of saying what Nodachi said.

Hi ben,

There is a fairly often used Japanese expression regarding this.

More or less translates as "Hit and reflect on one's actions, be hit and be thankful".
This expression is a bit tricky to translate. "reflect on one's actions" is translated from the single word "hansei". Hansei means to reflect on past actions or events. It's like reflecting on a mistake you have made.
Kendo is seen as something done in agreement with your opponent, not in competition. You might agree with someone you are training with to compete, but the agreement comes first. Respect comes before that. You are training to improve yourself and your opponent. Scoring a point against your opponent is meaningless unless you have learnt something from scoring the point. It is easy to score points against a lower grade opponent but unless you have learnt something from each point, each point has been meaningless. If your opponent has broken through your kamae and scored a point against you then you have surely learnt someting, or been given the opportunity to learn something so you should be grateful.

[Paburo]

is sincere kendo giving all you got?

i should make a new post about a different concep of chivalry and competition minded kendo...

[not-I]

Ben and Nanbanjin,

Thank you for those posts!

I was reminded of something our sensei recently said concerning bowing:

Rei should always be done correctly and with the whole heart, not as an empty gesture -- thereby expressing the true gratitude one feels towards the dojo, one's partners, etc. If your mind doesn't feel it yet, your body gradually will.

Bodaishin, how about "awareness" for "észlelés"?

As the above posts illustrate, it seems that being 100% present or "giving your all" is being present for others, with the stress on giving.

And regarding "mushotoku," etc. i think it's important not to over-conceptualize. When i asked my zen teacher about making distinctions from within non-distinction, he just said, "Find out who is making the distinctions." :wink:

[Nanbanjin]

Ben and Nanbanjin,

Thank you for those posts!

I was reminded of something our sensei recently said concerning bowing:

Rei should always be done correctly and with the whole heart, not as an empty gesture -- thereby expressing the true gratitude one feels towards the dojo, one's partners, etc. If your mind doesn't feel it yet, your body gradually will.

Bodaishin, how about "awareness" for "észlelés"?

As the above posts illustrate, it seems that being 100% present or "giving your all" is being present for others, with the stress on giving.

And regarding "mushotoku," etc. i think it's important not to over-conceptualize. When i asked my zen teacher about making distinctions from within non-distinction, he just said, "Find out who is making the distinctions." :wink:
Thank you for the +ve feedback. I'm not usually this philosophical. It dawned on me that the competition kendo debate becomes clearer if you look at it in the light of this way of thinking.

[taganahan]

using no way as your way. no limits as your limit.

~taganahan

[Bodaishin]

Bodaishin, how about "awareness" for "észlelés"?

As the above posts illustrate, it seems that being 100% present or "giving your all" is being present for others, with the stress on giving.

And regarding "mushotoku," etc. i think it's important not to over-conceptualize. When i asked my zen teacher about making distinctions from within non-distinction, he just said, "Find out who is making the distinctions." :wink:
well, the Hungarian word is a verb; but you are quite right that 'being aware of' might be the closest thing; thanks for the language update :-)

over-conceptualisation is way too bad, I agree. OTOH though, an online forum as such has little more to offer than shared thoughts by means of words (even though it may be about purely technical, material issues as well) as we unfortunately are not talking to each other face-to-face, in the dojo entrance, and neither of us can say: - Enough of over-conceptualisation, let us train now!

let zazen sit zazen...