Kasumi

[Neil Gendzwill]

I play hidari-jodan from time to time, and several of my dojo-mates will take kasumi (the high version) against it. Question for those of you who face this or any of the experienced judges out there - is the left kote a valid target for me? It's usually around mune height, and it's far and away the easiest thing to hit. My sensei thought it was valid but he wasn't completely sure.

[Kirin]

Neil sensei

Though I am not experienced in kendo or in judge,
I know Yamada sensei (Kumamoto) lost a point to Chiba sensei (Tokyo) on hidari-gote in All Japan Championships good 20yrs ago.

Previous year, Yamada (kasumi) won againt Chiba (hidai-jodan).
First was ura-suriage-men, and second point was hidari-kote - tsuki.... beautiful tsuki eventhough from kasumi (left grip way to your right)

Watching some kasumi vs jodan video, jodan does not use katate-waza as often as against seigan. Jodan usese more morote ni-dan waza such as migi-kote to men/gyaku-do. I guess kasumi is such a defensive kamae, jodan must go for 'go no sen'.

[satoshi]

I think the interpretation is that "kasumi" is a modified form of "chudan" but no longer "chudan", and therefore both kote are valid targets. However I haven't seen an official written guideline that says "kasumi" is not "chudan".

I personally do not think that scoring left kote from jodan is easy. If simply hit from above the kote should not score (although it is often given), and I think it is difficult to cut the correct target of a left kote with the correct angle.

[Nishi]

I believe the kote is valid (as you say) when it is above the mune (age-kote) It is the judges call as far as im concerned. Besides 'age-kote' ive never seen anything in the rules to support or suggest otherwise.

However I cant see many judges disputing it if it was a pearl of a kote!

[moocow65]

I play hidari-jodan from time to time, and several of my dojo-mates will take kasumi (the high version) against it. Question for those of you who face this or any of the experienced judges out there - is the left kote a valid target for me? It's usually around mune height, and it's far and away the easiest thing to hit. My sensei thought it was valid but he wasn't completely sure.
I scored a point from nito, which is pretty much the same as hidari-jodan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, I don't think the kamae you are attacking from matters so much as the kamae the aite is in. Still waiting for Marsten-sensei to weigh in here, but if you got one it's probably legal target.

[Curtis]

Yeah, I don't think the kamae you are attacking from matters so much as the kamae the aite is in. Still waiting for Marsten-sensei to weigh in here, but if you got one it's probably legal target.Which one? Me or my bubba?

I just spent several minutes looking through the rule book (1996 ed.) and it only states that right and left kote are targets at jodan.

However I know that I either read and/or have been told at seminars that left kote is a target when it rises above the pit of the stomach. This description makes me believe that I read it somewhere. The 2000 ed. of the rulebook looked unchanged to me so I will be darned if I can remember where I ran across this. I can tell you that I judge this way. Once it raises to this height I no longer consider it chudan.

[Paburo]

i've also heard from higher ranks that both kote are datotsu if they are above the mune. whether aite is on kamae, blocking, or rising to attack.

[JSchmidt]

i've also heard from higher ranks that both kote are datotsu if they are above the mune. whether aite is on kamae, blocking, or rising to attack.
Hmm?..pretty certain that transitions doesnt make the left kote a valid target...otherwise I'm certain we would be taught debana-kote against both sides :)

Jakob

[satoshi]

I did a bit of internet search. It's a bit long but I hope it contributes to the discussion.

The latest AJKF regulation (ed. 2002) states that “The target area for kote shall be the right kote (the left kote if the opponent holds the shinai with left hand forward) for chudan-no-kamae, and both the right and left kote for other kamae.”

http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/saisoku.html

The question is what is included in "other kamae".
According to another guideline written for the Kokutai (National Athletic), “The target for kote is the right kote. However, left kote is also a yukoda when the opponent is in chudan-no-kamae with left hand forward, jyodan-no-kamae, hasso-no-kamae, waki-gamae, nito-no-kamae, age-gote, and other variant of chudan.”

http://sun1.pref.toyama.jp/sections/1901/kokutai/pdf/guidebook/p40.pdf

I think "chudan-no-kamae with left hand forward, jyodan-no-kamae, hasso-no-kamae, waki-gamae, nito-no-kamae" are straightforward. The question is what kind of situation is included in "age-gote, and other variant of chudan".

Age-gote is defined as “a situation when the left kote is positioned higher than the solar plexus but not during a strike.”

http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/n-onihei/mametisiki/yougo2.htm

According to one interpretation, "age-gote" includes a situation when the opponent avoids by sticking up his/her left fist, or when the opponent cuts hiki-men from tsuba-zeriai position and the left hand is held up.

The same person comments that "variant of chudan" includes hira-seigan and kasumi-no-kamae.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/89459228515625.html

So my understanding is that both right and left kote are targets when the opponent is in kasumi-no-kamae. Also my feeling is that in Japan increasingly referees are encouraged to accept left kote as a valid strike against an opponent who defends by lifting his/her left kote. But I do not think it is a widely accepted interpretation to consider left kote as a valid target, when a person lifts the hand above the solar plexus as part of the cutting movement. I think it would make it too easy to allow de-gote to the left side in shiai.

Having said all this, this is about shiai refereeing. Kendo is not only about shiai, and if somebody cuts my left kote perfectly during keiko I would say "thank you that was a good cut" even if it was at chudan-no-kamae.

[D'Artagnan]

Please excuse my ignorance, but could somebody inform me what 'kasumi-no-kamae' is please? Is it similar to hira-seigan??

[Nanbanjin]

Please excuse my ignorance, but could somebody inform me what 'kasumi-no-kamae' is please? Is it similar to hira-seigan??
I might be wrong, but I am fairly sure that "hira-seigan" should be "hei-seigan".
The characters are 平青眼 . 平 can be read "hira" or "hei".

"Kasumi-no-kamae" is where you point the kensen at your opponent's left fist, but with the left hand pushed over to the right, and with the palm of the left hand facing upwards. Like hei/hira-seigan, kasumi-no-kamae is used against jodan.

[satoshi]

I might be wrong, but I am fairly sure that "hira-seigan" should be "hei-seigan".
The characters are 平青眼 . 平 can be read "hira" or "hei".

"Kasumi-no-kamae" is where you point the kensen at your opponent's left fist, but with the left hand pushed over to the right, and with the palm of the left hand facing upwards. Like hei/hira-seigan, kasumi-no-kamae is used against jodan.Personally I pronounce it hira-seigan and I have never heard it called hei-seigan. I don’t know if this is a regional difference (I practiced in Tokyo).

There are various forms of kasumi-no-kamae. The kasumi-no-kamae I know positions the tip of the sword/ shinai to the jodan’s RIGHT kote so that your own right hand comes in the centre. The position of the left hand is higher than a normal chudan.

[D'Artagnan]

Thank you both,

much appreciated! :)

[Nanbanjin]

Personally I pronounce it hira-seigan and I have never heard it called hei-seigan. I don’t know if this is a regional difference (I practiced in Tokyo).

There are various forms of kasumi-no-kamae. The kasumi-no-kamae I know positions the tip of the sword/ shinai to the jodan’s RIGHT kote so that your own right hand comes in the centre. The position of the left hand is higher than a normal chudan.Thanks for the correction.
I learn too much of this stuff from Ichinikai. I haven't lived in Japan for eight years and now realise that I have assumed that the way I have read some terms to be correct. A simple search of the internet proves me entirely wrong.
And yes RIGHT kote, not left.

[Kirin]

Please excuse my ignorance, but could somebody inform me what 'kasumi-no-kamae' is please? Is it similar to hira-seigan??

Just imagine hassou no kamae and start tilt down and pointing ken-saki to opponent's left grip.

I think true kasumi is left foot front, and came from 'ittou ryu'
So kasumi we are talking about is actually 'gyaku kasumi'
But lately right foot forward is commonly called kasumi in kendo since left foot forward kamae is un-suitable in modern kendo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The kasumi normally used against jodan or nito has the right arm almost straight forward from the shoulder, with the left hand pretty much under that arm and roughly mune height. Kensen is aimed towards the aite's right hand (if he is in jodan). From the jodan pov, men, tsuki and right kote are both completely guarded so long as the aite holds the kamae. The left kote is pretty open though, especially from hidari-jodan where you've already got the angle to it. I can't hit anything else on that kamae unless I get the aite to attack.

I have always heard that left kote is valid target when in a kamae above the mune, which was why I asked the question about kasumi as the kote is normally a little lower than that. The age-kote rule is news to me. I've had it explained to me that left kote is not valid when the aite is moving forward and up to attack a straight men, so dekote to that side would not be a point. Maybe it would apply in the case of nuki-men, when the aite raises his kote quite high and is moving back? That makes more sense to me.

[Curtis]

I get quite a bit of chance to practice against both jodan and nito here. In both instances I use this kamae. I also put quite a bit of movement into my footwork and my hands for a fair amount of success. It may be the people I am practicing with but they make very little effort to hit my left kote when I am in this kamae. There is the occasional try to do so.

As a shimpan i would not consider the left kote a target during a strike from chudan. However, I do when they raise the hands and are just shifting position to cover, block or parry.

[Kent Enfield]

is the left kote a valid target for me? It's usually around mune height, and it's far and away the easiest thing to hit.Okay, I've been trying to figure this out since you posted it. If the left kote is under the right forearm in kasumi, how is it "the easiest thing to hit" from jodan?

[Neil Gendzwill]

The fist is under the forearm, but the target area is exposed, in much the same position as if they were using hasso, but somewhat shielded by the shinai. If you use a diagonal swing from right to left (pretty easy to do from hidari jodan), you'll get under the shinai and hit the kote squarely.

Marsten-sensei, maybe they don't try for that kote because they don't think of it as target? Or maybe it's just because the usual suspects at my dojo don't know how to defend it from there.

[Curtis]

Marsten-sensei, maybe they don't try for that kote because they don't think of it as target? Or maybe it's just because the usual suspects at my dojo don't know how to defend it from there.Well they sure try to hit everything else I can tell you.

We had a really good jodan player from Kanagawa here in March and I watched him along with having a practice with him. I cannot remember him ever hitting the left from jodan. I am sure he could have though, I may have just missed it. But boy did he pound my men and my right kote. Frankly the guy was so good and I apparently was so open that I think he did not have to bother with the left. And he was tall too.

[Nanbanjin]

Just imagine hassou no kamae and start tilt down and pointing ken-saki to opponent's left grip.

I think true kasumi is left foot front, and came from 'ittou ryu'
So kasumi we are talking about is actually 'gyaku kasumi'
But lately right foot forward is commonly called kasumi in kendo since left foot forward kamae is un-suitable in modern kendo.
I was thinking...
Just imagine scratching your right armpit and forming a kamae from that position.
Just a thought.

[Neil Gendzwill]

We had a really good jodan player from Kanagawa here in March and I watched him along with having a practice with him. I cannot remember him ever hitting the left from jodan. I am sure he could have though, I may have just missed it. But boy did he pound my men and my right kote. Frankly the guy was so good and I apparently was so open that I think he did not have to bother with the left. And he was tall too.

So after practicing with him do you still think kasumi is the way to go against jodan, or would you use seigan?

[Curtis]

So after practicing with him do you still think kasumi is the way to go against jodan, or would you use seigan?
I use both and I think it depends on the skill of the jodan player as well. Do they hold their jodan higher, lower, more forward? How much do they press forward? Whole host of factors to look at.

I move it in and out of both combined with body movement.

One of the intesting things was to watch him against one of our local jodan players and how much faster he was. Kept picking the kote.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmm. Well, I'm facing a decision in my kendo. I'm tall and fairly strong and jodan is effective for me, but I need to decide whether I really want to pursue it or not. Speed and recovery on the attack definitely need development, but more importantly I need to learn how to create opportunity from there. I don't think I can accomplish all this without practising it full-time. If we had a jodan specialist here to learn from it would make the decision easier.

[JSchmidt]

I don't know what your plans are (Canadian team? or just for your own 'personal use'), but unless it's specificly aimed at competitions, I think it comes down to whether you enjoy doing jodan.
I'll never be a jodan-ninja, but I am most certainly enjoying the journey and learning an awful lot in the process.
There's times where it becomes very frustrating and I consider stopping doing jodan, but unfortunatly I'm far too stubborn for that :)

Jakob

[Curtis]

Hmm. Well, I'm facing a decision in my kendo. I'm tall and fairly strong and jodan is effective for me, but I need to decide whether I really want to pursue it or not. Speed and recovery on the attack definitely need development, but more importantly I need to learn how to create opportunity from there. I don't think I can accomplish all this without practising it full-time. If we had a jodan specialist here to learn from it would make the decision easier.
Well I would be happy to give my thoughts on it. Drop me a line via email. I keep thinking I will get up your way one of these days.

[D'Artagnan]

Just imagine hassou no kamae and start tilt down and pointing ken-saki to opponent's left grip.

I think true kasumi is left foot front, and came from 'ittou ryu'
So kasumi we are talking about is actually 'gyaku kasumi'
But lately right foot forward is commonly called kasumi in kendo since left foot forward kamae is un-suitable in modern kendo.


Ahhh... now i understand!

thank you very much!!!

[Kirin]

I was going through old 'Kendo Nippon' magazine, and it clearly states, hidari- kote is a valid strike against ksaumi.

Also hidari-kote is valid when :
1) hidari-kote is above chest
- hiki-men zanshin position
- age-kote
- infamous left grip up blocking from chudan

2) kamae with off center left grip
- one handed kamae (hira-seigan just with left hand against jodan or nito)
- against both true nito or gyaku nito (at anytime)

and for judging criteria, since hidari-kote is uncommon waza, uchidachi must make effort for more obvious intention to cut hidari-kote with ki-ken-tai icchi.

[slidercrank]

I have seen mentions of "age-kote" before, but don't know what it means. Can you explain?

[DCPan]

We had a really good jodan player from Kanagawa here in March...

03-28-04, Kanagawa Visit (http://www.sacrilicious.org/photos.php?dir=./Other_Photographers/Dave/2004-03-28_Kanagawa_Seattle_Visit)

If you want to see the jodan, click the above link.

I took the photos.

Hosting courtesy of Darrick Lew, Bellevue Kendo Club.

[Nishi]

I have seen mentions of "age-kote" before, but don't know what it means. Can you explain?

Age-kote means something like "up-wrist", basically refering to the position of kote. As we dont strike the left kote all that often in kendo (hence this thread) age-kote is a term used to define the kote (left or right) when it is about or above 'mune' level. In this position, circumstances pending, it can be a legal target.

Age-kote is more comman target when fencing Jodan or Nito players.