Do the pros do things we shouldn't?

[Charlie]

Hi, all. Not sure where to put this thread, so mods please feel free to move it if it's in the wrong place!

I have been watching a kendo all-Japan championship from a few years ago that my friend loaned me (he said it was from 8 years ago, that would make it 1994). I am noticing as I watch that these professional players, or at any rate the top-ranked players, do lots of things that maybe I wouldn't want to do or that my senseis over the years have actively discouraged me from doing. So either I just don't see how what they are doing might be contradictory, or they have "shiai habits" that they allow themselves to get away with. Some of the things I am talking about:

-A very wide stance, where the back toe is nowhere close to the front heel. (Adjustment of stance, I've read, might be eventually allowable - but this wide?)
-The back foot, while the heel is off the ground, seems to sometimes be turning inward instead of pointing straight back.
-Twisting of trunk or torso after or during strike.
-Backing up and blocking in the face of attack! I am told never to do this (but this may simply be a much more advanced technique, and at my level only "forward! forward! attack! attack!" is allowed.
-Not much of a fight for center but rather spastic circling and jerking. (Admittedly, this might be a way of using seme that is more advanced than I can understand, but I was taught to hold center, and that if the kensen twitches like a thing on fire, it should be as a natural result of my hara or ki.)

Granted, sometimes you see such very good playing that you go, "Ahhh! That's it." But I suspect other things are not meant to be copied. But this is in an art where, as I understand it, you should watch higher-ranked players and copy them. Could it be that sometimes we watch these players and make conscious decisions not to copy them? Are they habits that only fly because of the nature of shiai that one does not want to make a part of one's everyday keiko?

Your thoughts, please!

[Kendoboy]

I think (meaning that I could be wrong) that at the all japan's, these people have developed something of their own style. Something that may not be "pure" kendo, but works best for them. So I'd say don't copy them. Keep listening to your sensei, and someday you might be in the all japan's with not "pure" kendo, but something that works best for you, but has been built on good basics.

[kendokamax]

I watch all japan kendo a lot and i'm a fan of mitsunobu sato-!
I think these guys really are doing shiai kendo stuff! It can be really good to analyse what they do and sometimes try stuff they do just for trying out for yourself.

but I always wondered how their keiko kendo is different from their shiai kendo?

One thing thought.. I think these people have something that a lot of people like us dont. since they train all the time so much.. they really are able to give their best in every attack they would do.

[Danny Boy]

K-wa,

I think that once you get to 4th Dan and upwards, you know enough of Kendo and yourself, taht you can make adjustements. Additionally, everyone IS different. A kamae that a thin small kendoka is going to differ from a kamae of a tall, heavy kendoka.
People have different physicial problems as well, different Sankyo due to knee joint problems for example, or a shomen cut that is slighlty off center due to elbow etc.

Furthermore, after watching the gradings that took place at the Mumeishi Dojo (I would like to thank the hosts for an amazing day) under the threat of becoming a target for a flamer war, i would like to point out something was told by another bystander ....Shiai Kendo is not..."Grading/Friendly" Kendo.

:

[alexpollijr]

good topic for a new thread. I'll take it if you don't mind.

[lewis]

Charlie,

This is something I noticed in studying my 49th AJKF championship tape. I saw a number of points that my sensei would scold me for instead of giving a point. It's easier with slow motion of course, but some were pretty blatant.

[Charlie]

So I'm not the only one? And yet I have to conclude that these players and these shinpan are at a level we're not, and see things differently. It's a puzzle - especially because, as I said, we're supposed to be emulating them as part of our learning process.

Also, I know, too, that shiai kendo is NOT what you want to do for your grading! Good, clean kendo and an attempt to show what you know.

[munenmuso]

Perhaps they do things beyond mediocre kendo and prefer to improvise moves that is least expected by their opponent because compared to other players whose moves are easily predicted because it is routinary or redundant, kendokas who do things beyond expected are likely to surprise their opponents with unorthodox moves. This gives the player an edge and etch a character form himself.

I think this is what you call "style".

[David J]

Originally posted by Charlie

-Backing up and blocking in the face of attack! I am told never to do this (but this may simply be a much more advanced technique, and at my level only "forward! forward! attack! attack!" is allowed.

Isnt this ok, so long as you're doing it in order to be able to strike back? As in: Step back and block (where your men was), then step and strike. (Sorry, dont know the term for this).

Or were your guys not returning the strike and just trotting backwards? Tut, tut ;)

<rei>

Dave

[hamish]

Blocking isn't good, but suriage and kaeshi waza are, just don't get them mixed up. If you have time to block, you should have time to do something more constructive.

But then, if you're in the All Japans, and its a choice of being beaten or blocking...

Having said that, Miyazaki got knocked out last year when his block couldn't stop a men strike.

Hamish

[James R]

It could just be that this is the point where Kendo the art form becomes Kendo the sport.

[ben]

Talking with a friend who recently spent some months at Nittaidai, it seems that there is quite a bit of debate in kendo circles in Japan about this issue.

The most extreme example of "shiai kendo" this friend told me about was a chap named Gombe, former high school and now maybe University champion, who has developed a kamae with his hands held in front of his face, left above right, and the kensen pointing at the floor at a 70-80 degree angle. You can't get his men, tsuki-dare or kote in this position, and a slight side to side action protects both sides of his do. From there he cuts men with a kaeshi-like windmill movement that is apparently very fast and effective. Needless to say he wins matches but not any friends amongst the hachidan fraternity in Japan.

Personally I don't feel like I need to emulate this particular technique. What I admire in All Japan Taikai kendo is timing, speed and perseverance under pressure. I think the "bad" technique is sometimes a mixture of personal style, and that particular kendoka not dealing with pressure.

b

[Charlie]

I think you're right, there's just some things "we" do in shiai that we wouldn't do in jigeiko. That's interesting about Gombe's kamae! I have seen it *after* an attack has been made, a player twists his or her body and gets the shinai in this position to ward counter attacks. Does Gombe really beat everybody this way?? Somebody should be able to take that stance apart! Harai attacks? A good tsuki through the hands?

[laurien]

Originally posted by kendokamax
I watch all japan kendo a lot and i'm a fan of mitsunobu sato-!
I

Yeah, baby, yeah! Me too. He's awesome.

[laurien]

Originally posted by ben
What I admire in All Japan Taikai kendo is timing, speed and perseverance under pressure. I think the "bad" technique is sometimes a mixture of personal style, and that particular kendoka not dealing with pressure.


Yes. When I watch the All Japan's, 95% of the time I think "Wow. Their kendo is so smooth and flowing". Sure, there are bad habits, but on the whole: brilliant.

[KhawMengLee]

Well, certain things I don't really like. eg during the highlights before the quarter finals in the 49th AJKC you see one of the guys win by pushing his opponent over and out of the fighting area. I felt sorry for the guy because you could hear the laughter.

But my beef is that if thats the way to win points then we might as well just play rugby eh? I mean alls fair and that was an advantage but I feel that it defeats the purpose of doing kendo...but its hard to say until we are at that mark.

MENG

[AlexM]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

But my beef is that if thats the way to win points then we might as well just play rugby eh? I mean alls fair and that was an advantage but I feel that it defeats the purpose of doing kendo...but its hard to say until we are at that mark.

MENG

I agree. Kendo is about the way of the blade/sword right? So what's the logic in trying to win by trying to push someone out of an "imaginary" boundary.

However, I'm pretty sure that ippon by hansoku is less prevalent at higher levels (like the AJKF championships) than it is at our own lowly level. I've seen far too many hansoku in my (very) brief kendo career (career doesn't sound right) in which the shimpan probably should have penalised the person who knocked his opponent out of bounds rather than the other way around.

I'll hold back from ranting further on the subject (much as I would like to).

As always please feel free to flame.

[mingshi]

(One post fit all...)

Ben:
Hey, can I have more information of this Gombe guy? What's the correct spelling of his name? Because at a glance I cannot find anyone with that name in the Taikai records...
BTW, nice Kanji name there :)

Mmm... but it's different in high school Kendo... IT IS shiai Kendo. Anything goes. Scoring is priority. They promote any tricks...small flicking cuts, flying left foot, etc. etc.

AlexM:
Why do you keep asking other people to flame you?? :p

IMHO the reason in putting a Hansoku on the person who gets out of court is that, nobody should step back too far away and escape from the fight (i.e. lack of spirit). But this can also be easily abused-- you can push someone out to score half a point. In most cases it is the person who steps outside of boundary that gets Hansoku, but if your opponent is physically smaller you could also easily turn yourself into a bully...

Someone said before it's a tactic to intentionally knock your opponent's shinai off their hands to get a Hansoku too...

>>>"Kendo is about the way of the blade/sword right?"
In Shiai Kendo....probably not any more. It's more closer to "the way of the bamboo stick"......

I'll take the flame this time.

[AlexM]

Originally posted by mingshi

AlexM:
Why do you keep asking other people to flame you?? :p

I'll take the flame this time.

I'm just a masochist I guess. But then, aren't we all? (raise your hand those who have neither blisters, nor bruises, nor small gnomes taking flash photography in their brains....didn't think so).

On the subject of the "way of the bamboo stick". My sensei (and many others probably) likes to say that ken-do might become shinai-do (bad thing). Which leads to the question: What kind of kendo do we want to see in the future? It's our sport (technicaly) so want do we want? Or maybe we should just leave this up to the IKF's eternal wisdom (assuming they even want to deal with the question). BTW, wasn't this partly adressed in the thread about kendo as an olympic sport?

As for taking the flame for me ... I'm touched. Really I am. Thank you Mingshi. Nobody has ... ever done ... anything like ... this for me (breaks into tears and runs off to hide).

[kendokamax]

Alex something is wrong with you.

I will flame you just because you always beat me in keiko these days.

:(

there: FLAME ME BACK!

ok about the topic...

I think the way we do our kendo are many personals choises that we do during many years. sigh looks so confusing

[Will]

Yes, the professionals do stuff we shouldn't.

At practice, when I steer away from doing my shiai keiko, my kendo improves. So at practice, don't block etc, you're just hurting your own kendo, I'd just practice good clean kendo. But at the tournmanets, you could do whatever you feel like, anything goes in tournaments, your opponent is probably trying to do everything they can to win.

I think of hansoku like you're fighting on a cliff, or in the forest and there are trees there or something. If you're moving backwards and hit a tree, you're stunned and BAM dead.

About pushing people, I think of it like the cliff. It's not cool the push someone off a cliff, but hey, my life's in danger, let's go and do it.

And if anyone asks the question "Why then wont' we have hansokus be a full point w/o penalty to the attacker" My answer is that we're not doing sumo.

[Confound]

It's also important to remember, while watching videos of matches, that you have the ability to rewind, zoom in (if your'e watching on dvd), stop, pause, and fast forward. You also have the benefit of unusual camera angles that shimpan just don't have. In a match, there is only what the shimpan sees. If the shimpan doesn't see it, it might as well not have happened. Shimpans are only human. they can't see everything.

c

[David J]

DVDs of Kendo? Hey, now I'm interested...what / where from etc?

<rei>

Dave