Shiai kendo vs Shinsa kendo

[alexpollijr]

As picked from Charlie's thread, maybe we could discusse the differences between the kendo in shiai and kendo in gradings.

I, for instance, when doing shinsa, don't do hiki waza, don't do ojii waza and try to raise the shinai above the eyeline prior to striking shomen. Always forward, always from issoku ito no maai and preferably kote-men or other shikake waza.

When in shiai , however, debana kote, nuki do and kaeshi do become my main technique, all much smaller.

Cheers

Alex Polli

[Will]

I just don't block in shinsa keiko and have more zanshin. I don't think anything is wrong with doing debana kote, especially if you do it without bending your body, because it's an advance technique. Same thing with nuki do. Kaeshi do is a bit different especially if your opponent in the shinsa doesn't block.

But whatever. Your kendo in shiai shouldn't be different than shinsa :p... but we all know how hard it is to do that.

[A. Henriksson]

I think that when we train for shinza we learn the movements as they ideally would be performed. In shiai there isnt always time enough to do bigger techniques and you cant stay cool enough to do proper waza.
If you manage to hit with a big men strike just as you do in basic training it is always ippon. However such a large technique without loosing ki ken tai ichi and without leaning your body is impossible. Also there is not enough time to raise the sword over head thus waza become small.

When people fight against their sempai or their equals their kendo most of the time isnt as pretty to see as when they fight their kohai.
When you push yourself to the limit against a superior or an equal your techninque suffers. I think thats the main reason why the techniques look different in shiai.

Other things like doging men strikes by only leaning your head works in shiai because there are no tournament rules against it. Only senseis rules for keiko stop you from doing that. If it would be hansoku in shiai just as it is not allowed during shinsa people would stop.

Hmmm...writing to much...back to work.

[Charlie]

Yes, it's been my experience that good, clean jigeiko is what the grading panel wants to see, and an opportunity to "show your stuff." I was told that for ikkyu it's just as simple as not making an ass out of yourself and keeping it big. For shodan, good clean hits from issoku ito no maai and debana waza if you can pull it off. For nidan, that and nidan-waza, kote-men and the like. No hiki-waza, as was said, unless you know for a fact you can make it very clean. Sandan and up? Now it gets complicated...

It amazes me that the judges are able to see so much in a minute and a half of jigeiko.

[AlexM]

Our sempai's advice before grading for ikkyu (as opposed to shiai kendo) was:

"To do a good exam you have to do a lot of big men.
Nothing fancy: just do big technique. Keep the center. Scream a lot. Go in with the entire body, push hard and keep your back straight." His words (slightly condensed).

This sentence makes sense for a kendoka. Now re-read it as if you knew nothing about kendo.
Keep in mind we were discussing this over dinner in a crowded Chinese restaurant. You get the weirdest looks sometimes...And yes I do have a warped sense of humour.

[JSchmidt]

Hmm..in an ideal world, you would do the same kendo at a grading and shiai...it doesnt quite work that way, though :).
I must admit that I will happily sacrifice form over points in a shiai...but will also concede being hit rather than sacrifice form in shinsa :D.
As for oji-waza...depends on how it's done. If you pressure the opponent to attack, is it shikake-waza or oji-waza?.:)
Hiki-waza, hmm don't know...

Jakob

[mingshi]

Good Question! Makes me thing about a lot of things happening outside our own dojo.

Firstly, Shinsa Kendo... In my point of view, it's not the real Kendo either...

Like taking a grading in piano, you go and play that specific piece of music, then you are done. But of course you can play a lot more songs than that one.

Take a look.
Ikkyu> Ki-ken-tai-ichi, issoku-itto-no-maai
Shodan> Nidan-waza
Nidan> Shikake-waza, Oji-waza
Come on. People who are Shodan can do plenty of different waza. But they cannot do any waza in their Shodan Shinzan because... the judging panel don't need to see those. Say for Shodan, if you do Suriage-mean, you fail. If you don't perform Nidan-waza, you fail. What you should do depends entirely on which grade you are going for. I've even been told sometime ago NOT to do any Do cuts in Shinsa... is this true for everyone??

Okay, Shiai Kendo.
The greatest difference is, in Shiai you will encounter Kendoka in at any level (with less/more experience than you are). In Shinsa, it's always Shodan/Nidan etc., and there is no such thing as winning and losing.

Say, in Shiai, if you know your opponent is much stronger than you, you're more likely to block, or defence... Especially if it's a team competition, you can block everything and aim for a draw. Simply because scoring is much more difficult than blocking, for a less experienced Kendoka.

In Shiai, anything goes. You would have bad posture, but you can still bob your head. Everything is about scoring, and you can do anything to prevent your opponent to score too. Yeah, most common ones include pushing your opponent out of Shiai-jo. Would you do that in Shinsa? Would you do it in Jikeiko at your own dojo?

Of course it depends on how you treat Shiai. You don't have to escape from a cut by bobbing your head or blocking... Why not do some Nuki-waza? You can cut very small. But you can also cut extra-large. It is up to you.

I didn't say I dislike Shinsa and Shiai, but they are not my primary reason for doing Kendo. Aaaaaaaaanyway.....

[JSchmidt]

"Say for Shodan, if you do Suriage-men, you fail."

I did and I didn't :D

Jakob

[hamish]

If you're not good at it, don't do it, is probably the best advice for gradings, rather than specific dos and don'ts.

Different federations have different guidelines, too, although if you get failed for doing a more advanced waza, I would suggest there's something wrong!

Hamish

[ben]

The grading's that I have done best at (ie felt like I did my best kendo) were the ones where I was able to forget that I was doing a grading. Or to be more precise, not let that feeling become a negative. And come to think of it the shiai where I have done the best were also where I "forgot" I was in a shiai.

So therefore I reckon jigeiko is for thinking about and trying out waza. Shiai and shinsa are for not thinking about or trying out waza.

If possible.

b

[gill]

Originally posted by mingshi

Shodan> Nidan-waza
Nidan> Shikake-waza, Oji-waza
Come on. People who are Shodan can do plenty of different waza. But they cannot do any waza in their Shodan Shinzan because... the judging panel don't need to see those. Say for Shodan, if you do Suriage-mean, you fail. If you don't perform Nidan-waza, you fail. What you should do depends entirely on which grade you are going for. I've even been told sometime ago NOT to do any Do cuts in Shinsa... is this true for everyone??


Suriage-Men IS Nidan Waza!

The guidelines for gradings are exactly that - it gives you an indication of the level of competancy of kendo that you should have for whichever grade you are going for. It is not a list of what the panel want to see on the day - that is the mistake most people make (myself included in the past) when they go for a grade - they may be perfectly competent at the grade they are going for - but they go along on the day, and try and fight to a script, and they fail.

The reason people are told not to try Do during a grading is because it is extremely easy to get it wrong - which could tip the balance from a pass to a fail. You want to demonstrate what you can do well in a grading.


Originally posted by mingshi

Say, in Shiai, if you know your opponent is much stronger than you, you're more likely to block, or defence... Especially if it's a team competition, you can block everything and aim for a draw. Simply because scoring is much more difficult than blocking, for a less experienced Kendoka.

In Shiai, anything goes. You would have bad posture, but you can still bob your head. Everything is about scoring, and you can do anything to prevent your opponent to score too. Yeah, most common ones include pushing your opponent out of Shiai-jo. Would you do that in Shinsa? Would you do it in Jikeiko at your own dojo?



In Shiai you should still try and do your best kendo - no matter who your opponent is - often the best form of defense it attack - it will certainly work much better against a more experienced opponent than blocking.

True, shiai can be fought tactically - however tai-atari is a perfectly valid technique, and can be used in shiai, gi-geiko or gradings (provided that it is appropriate to the grade, and is executed correctly) If you start pushing your opponent in an inappropriate manner during shiai (ie not using tai-atari) you will get a hansoku (I know, because I have received one!!!!!)

Gill :D

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by gill
Suriage-Men IS Nidan Waza!Since when? I thought nidan waza were things like kote-men and men-do.

Other than that, I agree.

[alexpollijr]

Suriage men is oji waza, according to 'Kendo - The Definitive Guide' by H. Osawa and 'This is Kendo'.

Nidan waza are two -strike initiative techniques (shikake), i.e kote-men, kote-do, men-men, men-do, tsuki-men

[JSchmidt]

Suriage-men can be used as a shikake-waza, along the lines of harai-men, etc and in that sense could be called a nidan-waza...it serves largely the same purpose.

Jakob

[John W]

Yeah I agree with JSchmidt on that one. In oji waza you are basically waiting for total commitment from the opponent then at the last second taking centre. But suriage could be used as a shikake waza by attacking before the other person has done anything. We practised this technique today in fact and I found it very useful but you have to be quick coming back down and cutting after performing the suriage.:)

[ben]

JW - sorry to be finnicky, but I find that it is the details that are often the most important bits: Oji waza are simply waza that are reactive. The term does not imply any sense of timing. I say this because you mention a sense of waiting til the "last second". This will only work against mudansha. Against higher grades, if you * wait* to see what is coming you will be cut. Your reaction has to be almost on top of their action to be effective, especially with a technique like suriage, and also nuki and kaeshi waza.

You're right, suriage can be a shikake waza. However when it is, it is usually called *harai* waza. Suriage means "rising slide", the slide part comes from the action of the opponent's cut running down the shinogi of your blade.

But this doesn't matter as much as the timing thing.

b

[JSchmidt]

Yes, but you can attack the opponents shinai with the rising slide, similar to the way in oji-waza. It's particularly useful against people with a very strong center, as their kensen will usually return straight away after trying harai.

Jakob

[Ares2907]

Um, is that not what Ben just said?
*scratches head*

and suriage is oji-waza - the shikake waza you have in mind, as Ben also said, is harai (age) waza.

[Kent Enfield]

And whether you want to classify suriage waza as shikake or oji wazam it's still not nidan waza.

[gill]

Jacob is right, Nidan waza are combinations of 2 techniques, one of which can be an entry technique - harai, suriage, seme, etc. It can also be kote-men, kote-do etc

Gill

[alexpollijr]

I really don't think so.
Probably by the lack of written sources or senior japanese/korean comments on the subject.

[mingshi]

Hi all,

Literally in Japanese, the techniques are cateroized as follow:-

1. Shikake (Setting up?) Waza
>Harai Waza
>Katsugi Waza
>Hiki Waza
>Nidan, Sandan Waza (Renzoku Waza)
>Katate Waza
>Jodan Waza
etc.

2. Oji (Responding?) Waza
>Suriage Waza
>Kaeshi Waza
>Nuki Waza
>Uchi-otoshi Waza
etc.

Nidan, Sandan Waza is cateroized under Renzoku Waza, i.e. continuous CUTS on targets (not a combination of 2 or more techiques...)
Major examples of Nidan, Sandan Waza are:-
Kote-men, Kote-do, Men-men, Men-do, Tsuki-men, Tsuki-kote, Kote-men-do, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hence, for grading, at Shodan you're asked to demonstrate Nidan waza. At Nidan you're asked to demonstrate Shikake/Oji Waza. So they must be different things.......

[David J]

Originally posted by mingshi

Hence, for grading, at Shodan you're asked to demonstrate Nidan waza. At Nidan you're asked to demonstrate Shikake/Oji Waza. So they must be different things.......

Errr......not from what I've read (in the UK anyway)

This site

http://www.gakushijuku.fsnet.co.uk/grading_requirements.htm

seems to indicate Nidan waza at Nidan grade....

<rei>

Dave

[JSchmidt]

Jenny, you can use suriage to initiate an attack and in that moment it stops being an oji-waza.
It's only when you are counter attacking the opponent, I would call it oji-waza.

I look at both harai and suriage techniques, when it's used as first as an attack on the opponents shinai, to create an opening for (whatever) as nidan-waza. Having said that, I will use plain-ol' kote-men for my grading :p. (As well as suriage men as mentioned above, as it happens to be one of my better techniques).

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

Jakob

How can you use 'rising slide' (suri-age) against a shinai in chudan ? That would be harai-age (warding off), which is in fact shikake waza.

[JSchmidt]

I suspect we are splitting hairs here:).
I consider harai-waza a 'hard' attack on the shinai, whereas using suriage as shikake-waza is just that...rising slide.
Get the kensen just below and opposite the opponents shinai (still keep in contact), step in while you flick the tip up and the opponents shinai slides to the side, ie still 'rising slide', leaving your shinai in an ideal position to attack either kote or men, just as it does in the oji-waza variant.
It's particularly useful against people with a very strong center, as they normally expect a hard attack (ie 'hit') on their shinai.
I do this both as a one step technique and 2-step technique.
I suspect Gill learned it from the same teacher as me (Jeff Humm) (Whom, by the way, never said it was a nidan waza, but didnt stipulate the opposite either)

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

Maybe we are indeed ;)

Anyway, I believe (and was taught) that any 'warding off' would be harai, no matter the force. Though I noticed early on that if done from the omote side, it's quite like a sliding rising motion, but if done from the ura it's more like smacking it down (which would be uchiotoshi :confused: )

But, also, it can't be classified as renzoku (nidan) waza, because then harai would be also be nidan waza.

Cheers

Alex Polli

[kendokamax]

this thread is so confusing !

messed up lol

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Kent Enfield
Since when? I thought nidan waza were things like kote-men and men-do.

Other than that, I agree.

Respect please grashopper.

[John W]

But nidan waza is two CUTS and sandan waza is three CUTS.
I think using suriage to upset the opponents kamae then cutting whatever it may be once, is only a one cut technique, rather than two.

I admit I would sooner use this "attacking with suriage" as a last resort (becasue it is bloody difficult to pull off correclty and a slow technique too. Cause when you do the suriage, if the opponent is good he/she can quickly resume centre and get a nice tsuki just as you come in to cut kote or men.) I prefer to use suriage as a oji waza rather than attacking with it.;)

[JSchmidt]

Hmm..I don't see suriage as neither slow, nor opening up for the tsuki...For the opponent to attack the tsuki, he will have to start the attack prior to yours.
Suriage requires far less movement and force than harai.
As for difficulty, well, it's one of my best techniques when in chudan...I'm having far more trouble with the timing of the harai-waza.

Jakob

[mingshi]

Come on people, maybe it's time for language tutorial...
Suriage and Harai are different things......

When your opponent hold his/her center in Chudan, you can initiate an attack by hitting your shinai on your opponent's. You can hit it up, down, from the inside or outside. These are all harai-waza, which is to initiate an attack (Shikake).

Examples of Harai-waza: harai-men, harai-kote, harai-do, harai-tsuki

When your opponent is going to strike you, you can choose to brush his/her shinai away to your left or right. Then your opponent's strike will not be valid, and at the same time you can cut an opened target. This is Suriage-waza, which is for counterattack (Oji).

Examples of Suriage-waza: men-suriage-men (kata #5), men-suriage-kote, men-suriage-do, kote-suriage-men, kote-suriage-kote, tsuki-suriage-men, etc. (*note that the format is "attack-waza-counterattack")

Both waza involve hitting your opponent's shinai. But they're called differently. Hope this is clear enough.

[alexpollijr]

That's it.

[kendokamax]

just for fun..

isnt hiting the shinai down is a part of otoshi techniques?

[Ares2907]

Also occasionally called harai-otoshi. (kiri-otoshi etc etc. . .)
nuff said.

[kendokamax]

maki otoshi is the coolest

[Matlock]

...when doing shinsa, don't do hiki waza, don't do ojii waza and try to raise the shinai above the eyeline prior to striking shomen. Always forward, always from issoku ito no maai and preferably kote-men or other shikake waza.

When in shiai , however, debana kote, nuki do and kaeshi do become my main technique, all much smaller.The main difference in Shinsa kendo is not to bob your head or attempt to duck a hit. Learn how to be a good sportsman by learning how to take a hit. In shinsa, it is not so important that you get hit, but you should perform well and perform a "ki-ken-tai ichi" strike on your opponent. Remember, you do not want to cause your opponent to look stupid either.

In shisa, your only true opponent is yourself. Now get out there and hit some heads!!!

[DCPan]

You're right, suriage can be a shikake waza. However when it is, it is usually called *harai* waza. Suriage means "rising slide", the slide part comes from the action of the opponent's cut running down the shinogi of your blade.


Hi Ben, I think harai and suriage are qualitatively different.

Suriage is using the shinogi to slide up.

Harai is beating the opponent's weapon with what is normally considered the monouchi area.

If harai and suraige are just distinguished by shikake vs. oji, then why would the kata instruction for kata #6 specifically indicate to do "kote-suriage-kote", not "kote-harai-kote"?

Harai and suriage also differs in kensen placement.

FWIW.

P.S. I never did like the shikake/oji distinction anyhow...I find the concept...limiting.

[DCPan]

LOL, it has just occured to me that this is EXACTLY why the federation introduced Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon Waza Keiko-Ho.

If you try doing the various waza with bokuto, the distinction becomes meaniningful.

Mingshi, if you want to get technical, brushing the opponent's shinai aside is not a good way to describe suriage.

Suriage-waza done in a oji-waza situation is conveniently using your shinogi to deflect the opponent's sword during furikaburi.

Just brushing the opponent's shinai aside would be more like what you are doing in kirikaeshi...while there are various ways to describe it...wording such as ukeru would normally suffice. The timing and feel of ukeru is not the same as suriage or kaeshi, as they utilize the opponent's striking energy differently...taisabaki is also different.

Also, really, harai is fairly vague and broad...as you can beat the shinai in qualitatively different ways, there's harai, hajiku, baru, etc. Suffixs like -age and -otoshi also helps. There's also osae (push) to make people over-compensate...people lump that with harai erroneously.

And, like the example I used earlier, brushing your opponent's attack aside can be harai...such as the example to do kata #6 the wrong way.

FWIW.