Powerfull strikes

[louisvandalen]

Hi there,

I just read a thread of a guy that asked one of his more senior team members to hit softer men's. To me this is a strange question (it's like parachuting without taking off).

I had the same problem with a more senior member. As I expected to have to hit firm men's (like my sensei, his men makes your ears ring) this guy asked me to slowdown. I stop in time (if he moves his head I adapt) but I just hit hard.

Why is this a problem? If I take Kendo as an actual battle practice how can you hit to hard; right you can't kill a dude but you must be able to get some kind of respect (hitting hard does that I noticed). Wouldn't you use full strenght in actual battle (with a katana instead of a shinai)?

And if someone get's a proper bang in the men that will definatly make him realise he's not fighting a chiwawa but a live oponent (psychological advantage?).

Isn't rigourousness and strenght not one of the things we all try to develop doing kendo?

Are there official rules on how hard you can hit?

Shouldn't the kendo armor protect you from these impacts (if not why the hell do we wear such an uncomfortable helmet?).

Regards,

Louis
www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)

P.S. I do understand that you can't hit a child with full power, just talking about grown ups sparring with eachother (or kid vs kid maybe).

[JSchmidt]

What he is telling you, is that you are using too much right hand and no tenuchi...and that hurts, regardless the quality of your men. Further, it actually slows your cut down.

[nodachi]

Hitting too hard is bad for lots of reasons.

You hurt your own clubmates. It's just unsafe. We are not doing kendo to use it on a battlefield. Times change and so this mode of thinking will only hurt your clubmates, or get them pissed off at you and they will smack you too hard that you will get hurt.

Also, hitting with lots of strength isn't necessarily good. Good technique and a relaxed attack is more important. Too much strength can hurt your form because if you are trying to hit hard, then you won't have as much speed and good form because your body will be too tense.

Have you ever tried tameshigiri (test cutting, using a real sword to cut through rolled up straw mats)? This is a good example of too much strength being bad. If you are relaxed and strike well, you cut straight through. The cut looks very pretty when its a clean, straight cut and if it were a battle your sword is free to attack or defend immediately.

If you use too much strength, the instant you hit the mat the sword starts to wiggle around and actually get stuck in the mat. It's hard to remove it from the mat when this happens as well. Hence your sword is stuck in some corpse on the battle field, you can't defend yourself, and someone gets you with a cheap shot because your sword is stuck in this other body.

I don't like real fighting/battlefield analogies, but even there, too much strength is bad.

[hamish]

I think this one has been discussed before, but people who hit harder tend to hit slower, and are generally not able to do as much renzoku waza as someone who is not thinking about using their strength so much.

Hitting overly hard doesn't generally win you any respect, timing does.

As far as 'battle' goes, how hard would you need to hit someone with a 3 foot razor blade to take them out?

You should be developing speed and timing more than strength. The top guys, your Andos, Eigas, Takahashis, Miyazakis et al don't hit hard enough to make your ears ring. Its when and where they hit that makes the difference.

Too many people think they should be using the strength in their upper body, nothing could be farther from the truth, its your leg strength and power that holds the key.

Hamish

[Kichigai]

Also, by dedicating so much strength to one hit, it seems that you've already made up your mind on a strike - a dangerous thing in shiai.

One should always be loose and fluid, and thus able to react to any situation.

[KotatsuSama]

Be fluid like water do not attempt to go through or move an obstacle mearly surround and go around it.
-Laozi (Tao te Ching)

If you put so much strength into a strike wouldn't that limit you? Because with so much strength it will take just as much strength to take control of the Shinai again and move it. Like striking downward with a Katana with strength is really hard to stop and control. But doing it fast and controlled is easier.

-KotatsuSama

[Kingofmyrrh]

Also, by dedicating so much strength to one hit, it seems that you've already made up your mind on a strike - a dangerous thing in shiai.

Surely this is exactly what is required in shiai? A decisive cut made with 100% dedication. You may well have heard the term sutemi used. Of course, it`s a matter of when to make that cut...
Personally I feel that one should try and strike as powerfully as possible without losing speed. Most of the basic body movements in kendo seem to be geared towards this end. For example, I see the whole idea of cutting from the hips, and fumikomi, as methods to provide a stable lower body at the point of impact, which allows one to deliver a powerful strike.

[JSchmidt]

I see the whole idea of cutting from the hips, and fumikomi, as methods to provide a stable lower body at the point of impact, which allows one to deliver a powerful strike.
There's a big difference between a powerful strike, as you describe above, with correct tenuchi and a beginner trying to drill you into the ground with his right arm.

Jakob

[yangs]

Using too much strength in upper body is not good in kendo. You have to use your body to push your sword. If you use your hand power so much, then it will be that your sword is draging your body instead. It will make your balance be tilled to the front which with enough strength your opponent can easily push you to the floor.

A powerful strike comes from footwork instead of hand power.

[tapioka]

I don't need to say anymore, since everyone has hit all the points. but let me just say that my 2 of my friends have had concussions from having bigger kenshi hit them too hard. it's NOT a pretty sight and please let's not hurt anyone in kendo.

[Kingofmyrrh]

A powerful strike comes from footwork instead of hand power.

People always say this, and of course I`m in full agreement, but if you think about it anatomically, then the reason that this works is that by moving the hips forward, you provide a solid base for the upper body to sit upright on, which then allows you to close the angle between your arms and flank (waki wo shimeru), which I believe is the key to CORRECT powerful cutting, along with suitable application of wrist power (closing the flank also requires relaxed shoulders). If you look at people with good footwork, when they cut the angle of their armpit when you look from the side is less than 90 degrees, whereas people who just lunge forward without bringing their hips and legs with them have their armpit wide open. This doesn`t allow you to generate power.
Of course, as JSchmidt said, there`s a world of difference between a good hard hit (pokkon!) and a bad one (gasheet!).

[Kmav]

"too much right hand and no tenuchi"
"Good technique and a relaxed attack is more important."
"Hitting overly hard doesn't generally win you any respect, timing does."
"please let's not hurt anyone in kendo."
"A powerful strike comes from footwork instead of hand power."

Wow...looks like everything was covered. Good work guys. And let me add one more thing in regards to your battlefield analogy: A gym hardly qualifies as a battlefield and if you take kendo as battle practice, then you've kind of missed the point of kendo.

[KotatsuSama]

ooh ooh and!

It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye!

[tapioka]

ouch.....that would suck.

[Lloromannic]

ouch.....that would suck. That happened to a sensei I know. The shinai broke and entered through the monomi. He didn't lose the eye but I don't think he can see (I haven't had the nerve to ask him).

[Lloromannic]

you must be able to get some kind of respect (hitting hard does that I noticed)
The respect hitting hard will get you will be applied in morote tsuki form.

[eon]

From what I have learned from my own seniors so far it's ok to hit hard but the shinai should fully stop 1-2 cm after hitting it's target (ie. if your opponent would take his head out of the path of shinai, it should stop somewhere around where his eyebrows were).

For that the tension should be brought to hands right when the shinai hits (a movement similar to wringing water out of a damp cloth). Other than that, it's always best to strike with relaxed hands.

The same principle is used in other forms of martial arts as well. For example Bruce Lee thaught about jet kune do that you must strike with completely relaxed hand and fist and only bring tension and strenght into them a fraction of a second before you hit the target. Likewise the hand should stop moving a couple of millimeters after hitting. The benefit of this being, that body moves much faster when it's relaxed. Tension in muscles makes them slower.

And in martial arts (and as much in kendo as anywhere else) it's all about speed.

Another reason why kendo beginners are thought to hit with less strenght is that when you miss your hit in a competition (and that is often the case) having used to much strenght makes you lean forward, fully exposing yourself to the opponent.