katana cutting edge

[RYUUJIN]

in reality what is the true cutting power of a real well made katana? i would even say an eceptional one. i was always curious about this. what would it cut, and to what extent?
i was always very curious about this

[Paburo]

i guess a good katana can cut almost ANYTHING. even cut an airborne shot bullet in half....

http://www.yonkis.com/media/hatorianzo.wmv

(you may have to right click and choose save target as... to watch this clip)

[KotatsuSama]

I tried working for this place called cutco (long story) and they made the finest cutlery in the world. The only knife recorded that matched the cutting power of cutco was a Katana (supposedly it cut a hair or something). Err not matched, bested by far.

My Katana is FAR from sharp. In america you CANNOT legally buy a blade over like 6 inches sharpened or something like that. Anyway it is really dull but with just a little force it still goes right through things. However that is also partly because of the curvature. (Fact: the curvature of the blade is designed to reduce the amount of shaking and tention upon striking, thank you History Channel lol!)

-KotatsuSama

[louisvandalen]

A spine can be cut in one stroke but that's about as good as it gets :). Forget about solid materials suchs as rocks, marble or titanium. It will just brake (sword or hand) or bounce off leaving you with a worthless sword.

Found following on:
http://www.wdob.net/mai/weapons/katana/katanahistory.php

According to tradition the first Japanese sword blade was made by the swordsmith Amakuni Yasutsuna about the year 700. Amakuni, his son Amakura and a number of other smiths were employed by the emperor to make weapons for his warriors. One day the emperor and his warriors passed by Amakuni’s forge as they returned from battle, and instead of greeting Amakuni as he usually did, the emperor totally ignored Amakuni and all the swordsmiths. As the warriors straggled back Amakuni noticed that many of them were carrying broken swords; the weapons he had forged had snapped in the heat of battle. He closely examined the weapons and swore an oath to make a sword that would not break and so regain the emperors favour.
Amakuni and his son locked themselves in their forge and prayed to the Shinto gods for seven days and nights. Then they set to work, refining the metal of the blade and applying all their knowledge to make the perfect sword. After a month of work they emerged with a sword that curved slightly and had only one edge. Pleased with their first effort they refined the process, and when the warriors returned from their battles the following year, none were broken.

The methods followed by the legendary Amakuni were improved over the next ten centuries but the basic technique of forging the blade remained the same. Small pieces of steel formed in a blast furnace were selected and stacked on an iron plate. This was heated in a furnace then welded into a solid block on an anvil by pounding the metal with heavy hammers. The block was then folded and beaten out again repeatedly until thousands of laminations were produced and much of the carbon in the original pieces of metal was removed. The final blade was made by wrapping the prepared block around a strip of high carbon steel which would produce the edge of the sword in the finished weapon. In the final forging the blade was covered with a paste made of clay, charcoal, powdered grinding stone and other material which is removed from the edge to leave a pattern typical of the smith’s tradition. The sword is heated “until it turns to the colour of the moon about to set out on its journey across the heavens on a June or July evening,” according to the words of one swordsmith, and cooled by being plunged edge down into a trough of water kept at a specified temperature. The unprotected edge of the blade cooled quickly while the clay covering allowed the rest of the blade to cool more slowly and so retain its flexibility.

The smith would then sign his name on the tang and pass the blade onto specialist craftsmen who would polish the blade and fit the hilt, guard (tsuba) and other items of sword furniture. The finished blade was sometimes given to a professional sword tester who used the living bodies of condemned criminals or their corpses taken from the execution grounds to test the cutting power of a new sword. Twenty different cuts were used, beginning with severing the hand by cutting through the bones of the wrist and progressing through the thicker limbs of the body. The most difficult cut was known as ryo-kuruma (pair of wheels) which involved slicing through the hips and the thickest part of the spine. The results of the test were usually recorded on the nakago or sword tang, and it is not uncommon to find inscriptions on old swords giving details of the tests such as “two men cut” or “eight arms severed.” Some swords were so well made that in the hands of an expert swordsman they were capable of slicing through tremendous resistance. Some seventeenth century blades bear the inscription “mitsudo setsudan” (three bodies with one cut), and in the martial art of iai-jutsu (the art of drawing the sword) one of the techniques taught is capable of cutting a body in two by slicing through the torso from the right hip to the left shoulder. The terrible cutting power of the Japanese sword does not simply depend on the quality of the blade; it must be wielded by someone who knows how to cut, a skill developed by cutting through bundles made from wet straw or other materials.

The long sword in Japan has seen three major incarnations, and for each type of sword exists a fighting style to match the blade's shape. The early blades, called chokuto or “straight swords,” tended to get longer as metallurgy techniques improved. Though not much is known about how these weapons were wielded, the extra length - without any significant increase in weight - certainly gave the fighter more reach. The handle size of these blades suggests that they were held in one hand. The two-edged blade suggests a thrusting and hacking style of fighting.

The first major change in the shape of the sword came during Amakuni’s time, a style perhaps created by Amakuni himself. Warriors found that, compared to a straight blade, a curved sword can be drawn from the saya more quickly and can provide a more effective cutting angle. Consequently, swordsmiths developed forging techniques to make a curved blade at least as strong as the earlier straight ones. These swords, called tachi, were extremely long, some nearly four feet, and were generally used by soldiers on horseback. The long, curved blade was ideal for a sweeping draw and slash against opponents on the ground or mounted upon other horses.

Later in Japanese history, most soldiers found themselves doing battle on foot, or engaging in individual combat against one another. For such men, the tachi were too long to be drawn or wielded comfortably, so a shorter sword was developed. This sword was the katana, and the katana is the sword that most practicianers of Iaï-Do systems use today. Katana are generally between two and four feet in length and, though curved, have a less pronounced arc than the tachi. They can be efficiently drawn from the saya into position for a horizontal, diagonal, or vertical cut, and the curve of the blade lends itself well to the efficient slashing cut characteristic of Iaï-Do.

[louisvandalen]

Some more on swords and styles can be found here:

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm

Best Regards,

Louis

[Stimpson J. Cat]

In america you CANNOT legally buy a blade over like 6 inches sharpened or something like that.
-KotatsuSama
Well, maybe not in North Hollywood, but in most parts of the country you can.

[KotatsuSama]

Actually, I bought mine in Kansas... which is even odder because they sell scythes that are way over 6 inches. I don't know what the law is I just heard about it from my friend and from the person I purchased it from. However, I don't know of a good way to sharpen my Katana. I don't really use it for anything but i just want to take good care of it, it looks really bad with the flat edge. I received it doused in gun-oil and I polished it after the gun-oil came off. I was looking for some wet stones to sharpen it with but I get the feeling that isn't a good idea, anyone got any good ideas?

It is about 3 Shaku long, Tsuba is aluminum (-_-) and the Tsuka is maybe 1 shaku long. I never actually measured it. I got it dirt cheap because the Saya was broken but I fixed it with some Super glue, polish and a little bit of rubbing alocohol. The blade is pretty decent, folded steel I can tell that it was really sharp at one point because the boshi and kissaki are really sharp it goes through things like butter. So as I asked before, anyone know of any good sharpening methods for Katanas?

NOTE: DO NOT USE A REGULAR KNIFE SHARPENER YOU WILL RUIN THE BLADE!

-KotatsuSama

[Kichigai]

If one is careful, I imagine a traditional whetstone would do the trick.

Granted, I haven't tried it on mine.

[fe-taru tora]

can I use a real katana in iaido ?

[Jung_Yul]

can I use a real katana in iaido ?
Typically, you'll start with either a bokuto or an Iaito, or an unsharpened sword. The Iaito, in some cases, is a good sword in all other respects, but it most likely will not be tempered or forged, and it's got no cutting edge. It does, however, have a sharp tip which one must be mindful of. Shinken, or "real swords" are, to my limited understanding, generally reserved for more experienced Iaidoka... I believe that San Dan is the generally accepted rank for such a thing. Anyone, please, if I'm wrong, let me know. One additional thing about Iaito is that some are an aluminum composite, and some are steel. In my mind, the only real difference between the two is in their weight... after all, you won't be using either against another blade or for tamashigiri, so blade strength shouldn't be an issue. Hope that helps!

Yours in Budo,
John

[(' ')< QUACK]

One of my sensei did a cutting demonstration at a Japanese Festival. He was able to most of the time cut through some very tightly bound type of plant fiber (about 1/2 foot thick).

[Banza Joe]

Typically, you'll start with either a bokuto or an Iaito, or an unsharpened sword. The Iaito, in some cases, is a good sword in all other respects, but it most likely will not be tempered or forged, and it's got no cutting edge. It does, however, have a sharp tip which one must be mindful of. Shinken, or "real swords" are, to my limited understanding, generally reserved for more experienced Iaidoka... I believe that San Dan is the generally accepted rank for such a thing. Anyone, please, if I'm wrong, let me know. One additional thing about Iaito is that some are an aluminum composite, and some are steel. In my mind, the only real difference between the two is in their weight... after all, you won't be using either against another blade or for tamashigiri, so blade strength shouldn't be an issue. Hope that helps!


Yup, a lot of iai ryu will not practice with shinken until godan, some even less than sandan. Obviously an iaito is developed purely for safe iai practice. They are usually made from a steel alloy and are not sharp. Indeed most are said to be 'unsharpenable'. But whatever, you must NEVER try and cut with an iaito. It is not built for strength, the only thing it should cut, is the air. They are indeed quite a bit lighter than a shinken would be. Most iaitos have a a bo-hi (blood fuller) which adds to the lightness of the blades and gives a nice whoosh when cutting, although you usually have to cut properly to hear the whoosh.
Because iaitos are not used for contact, it should last you forever (ish). My advice is to buy a decent customisable iaito. By the sword with the best balance point and nicest blade. Make sure it has 2 mekugi (tsuka retaining pegs), Some only have one mekugi and are then glued to add strength, thus rendering the sword mostly uncustomisable.
I, myself have changed the saya and tsuba of mine. My tsuba is a lot smaller than the original one, which helps greatly when practicing (imho).
Again, imho, i have the Paul Chen nami 'wave' iaito (£155) and the Paul Chen Practical Katana for cutting (£130) both are excellent 1st buyer swords, and as the sori on the blades are the same you can swap the saya around if you want.
Hope this rant helps.

[AkuSokuZan]

So as I asked before, anyone know of any good sharpening methods for Katanas?

NOTE: DO NOT USE A REGULAR KNIFE SHARPENER YOU WILL RUIN THE BLADE!

-KotatsuSama
My advice is, Send it to a professional sharpaning company in japan.
Heres a website that might help shed some light:

http://www.scnf.org/forge.html
however, it doesn't talk about sharpening.

Sorry about that Kotatsu
__________________________
Vancouver Kendo Club
Kris Wu

[samuraix966]

Has anyone ever made a blade out of titanium? It's light but as strong as steel.

[Halcyon]

So as I asked before, anyone know of any good sharpening methods for Katanas?If it's worth sharpening, it's worth doing it right. Send it to a professional sharpener. But be prepared to pay for it.

Konno sensei in Seattle is a well-respected sharpener in the U.S. His iai is very beautiful too. See the following link.

http://www.tokenkonnoart.com/

[wezzyfish]

Pretty interesting stuff in this topic.

As far as sharpening your sword, I would suggest either getting it proffessionally done or just use a whetstone, though unless you know how to use one, I wouldn't recommend it.

I know that my iai instructor doesn't care if we use shinken or iaito, though most of our practice is done with a bokuto or bokken. Still, for demonstration or competition, you always want to use a iaito or shinken. With either, you need to be very careful. My teacher allows us to use one when he feels that we have control enough for it. Still, like I said, most practice is done with bokken, since we do a lot of two person waza and excercises.

When we cut tameshigiri, of course we use shinken, since iaito just wouldn't do the trick, as it has no blade. Still, with a perfect cut, you should be able to slice through the mat with a iaito, though I don't recommend it since you risk bending or breaking your sword.

As for strength of a katana, it is the strongest cutting blade in the world, and the strength and precision of the cut depends solely on the swordsman, though the blade sharpness depends upon the smith. Still, a nicely made katana can cut through copper pipes, though to me, it seems kind of pointless. After all, it was made to cut through flesh and bone, and there is no reason to use it on anything else. Of course, that is illegal, so tameshigiri works great for testing your own cuts.

[Ric Flinn]

A traditionally made Japanese sword should never be "sharpened" with a whetstone by somebody who doesn't know what they'er doing. A typical knife has a beveled edge, where the blade has been sharpened to the edge. A Japanese sword doesn't have this; the shape of the blade leads right into the edge. Because of this, a Japanese sword is polished rather than sharpened. Any attempt to put a sharper edge on a well-made sword will ruin the shape of the blade. Japanese swords (Nihonto is the term I prefer, I think the word "katana" is so cliche) should only be polished by someone well trained in the art. A good polish job usually costs anywhere from US $60 to $120 per inch of steel.

Well-made swords are much, much more complicated than a hunk of steel with one side sharpened.

[Takamatsu]

Hello In a real sword school we are taught to use real nihonto from the start no real samurai would wear anything else we do use bokuto for pravtice too. this is not normal in japan however and most schools here use iaito. I was the only student out of 65 to use a shinken to get my shodan rank in Kokura.

[Ric Flinn]

Many schools still have students start with live blades after using a bokken for a while but this is not typical for an iai-based style nowadays. Good usable shinken are expensive and difficult to find, and cheaper steel swords just aren't very usable for iai. Plus you can push you limits, train harder and longer with an iaito, while saving money for a shinken.

Why is it that every person who starts training with a live sword feels inclined to brag about it? Samurai don't exist any longer (thank goodness), and most people training seriously nowadays aren't pretending to be one. Bokken, iaito, shinken, they're all just tools.

[Peegee]

can I use a real katana in iaido ?

real katana (shinken) is required for 6th DAN examintaions. But during training, probably not. :smiley:

[tattooedasshole]

How do you find the term "Katana" to be cliche? That is what swords of that style are called. Nihonto, on the other hand, refers to ALL blades, wakizashi, tanto, ect. Nihonto and Katana are NOT interchageable terms. Nihonto means, basicaly, Japanese sword. Katana is a style of blade (and mounting).

In general, a shinken will be extreamly sharp. They are not, however, anywhere close to a razor. The angle down to the edge is just not that steep. There is also a "shape" to the cross section of the blades, called niku, that prevents them from getting as sharp as some might think, but keeps the blade from breaking, or chipping, during actual use. For more info, goto Bugei.com, and read the forums. Very informative site, dedicated to swords made in the japanese style.

[Ric Flinn]

How do you find the term "Katana" to be cliche? That is what swords of that style are called. Nihonto, on the other hand, refers to ALL blades, wakizashi, tanto, ect. Nihonto and Katana are NOT interchageable terms. Nihonto means, basicaly, Japanese sword. Katana is a style of blade (and mounting).

Just from overuse. I know it's technically the correct term but it's used so much it's starting to grate on my skull. And most non-Japanese people don't pronounce it right, which irks me even more. A $29 hunk of Taiwanese stainless steel can and is refered to as a katana, but it can never be a Nihonto. It's just my personal preference. And technically, Nihonto means "Japanese sword" but katana just means "sword." I know the connotation is that of a specific style of mountings but it doesn't have to mean that. It's just easier to use "katana" and "tachi" as non-interchangeable terms for the different mounting styles.

[Kaoru]

How do you find the term "Katana" to be cliche? That is what swords of that style are called. Nihonto, on the other hand, refers to ALL blades, wakizashi, tanto, ect. Nihonto and Katana are NOT interchageable terms. Nihonto means, basicaly, Japanese sword. Katana is a style of blade (and mounting).

In general, a shinken will be extreamly sharp. They are not, however, anywhere close to a razor. The angle down to the edge is just not that steep. There is also a "shape" to the cross section of the blades, called niku, that prevents them from getting as sharp as some might think, but keeps the blade from breaking, or chipping, during actual use. For more info, goto Bugei.com, and read the forums. Very informative site, dedicated to swords made in the japanese style.

Hi there,

Welcome to the forum.

They are not a razor blade, yes. But, they are as sharp as one.(A well made one, that is.) Have you seen what one can do? I'm not talking just about wara. Bugei isn't the only forum that has good information.
We have several quite knowledgeable Iaido sensei on this board. One of them also does/teaches Kenjutsu.

What JSA do you practice?

Kaoru

[tattooedasshole]

I only recently started kendo, but have several years of study in to japanese swords ( a few books, a whole bunch of web-sites, and alot of time, lol ). The best made katana in the world will not be anywhere near as sharp as a razor, the edge angle is just wrong. You can come very close if your blade is a hira-zurkuri, however, the historical acuracy of hira-zurkuri katana is next to nill. Blades of that shape, in those lengths are just too prown to bending. I own a Bugei katana, and know exactly what it can do. Its sharp as hell, and will cut you deep if you're not careful. But it is NOWHERE close to a razor. I am well aware that bugei is not the only site for info, but it is a good one. I have yet to see another site where you can ask questions of polishers, and smiths, along side the people who use these blades almost daily.

As per katana and tachi....Although the mountings are the basic difference, there are also diferences in the shape of the blade. You probably won't find a tachi with a tori-sori, where as most katana are made that way. This is, of course, a generalization, not a hard fast rule (there aren't any when talking about nihonto, lol).

I agree that the term "katana" is far over used for "sword shaped replicas", but Nihonto is a little too general of a term for me. To each his/her own.

[Ric Flinn]

I only recently started kendo, but have several years of study in to japanese swords ( a few books, a whole bunch of web-sites, and alot of time, lol ). The best made katana in the world will not be anywhere near as sharp as a razor, the edge angle is just wrong. You can come very close if your blade is a hira-zurkuri, however, the historical acuracy of hira-zurkuri katana is next to nill. Blades of that shape, in those lengths are just too prown to bending. I own a Bugei katana, and know exactly what it can do. Its sharp as hell, and will cut you deep if you're not careful. But it is NOWHERE close to a razor. I am well aware that bugei is not the only site for info, but it is a good one. I have yet to see another site where you can ask questions of polishers, and smiths, along side the people who use these blades almost daily.


He's right about this Kaoru, the blade geometry is just too different. Razors can be really hard steel, and can have really extreme edge angles, but they don't have to stand up to a 3-roll mat of tatami omote.


As per katana and tachi....Although the mountings are the basic difference, there are also diferences in the shape of the blade. You probably won't find a tachi with a tori-sori, where as most katana are made that way. This is, of course, a generalization, not a hard fast rule (there aren't any when talking about nihonto, lol).

Yeah that's certainly true as well, no hard and fast rules. Complicated even further by the fact that lots of older katana are simply cut-down tachi.


I agree that the term "katana" is far over used for "sword shaped replicas", but Nihonto is a little too general of a term for me. To each his/her own.

I agree. I usually stick with "shinken" for live blades (or "live blade" depending on the group of miscreants I'm talking with) and iaito if I know it's not sharp.

[tattooedasshole]

Yup, it does get more than a little difficult. I was recently looking at a friends Enju Kunimura Tachi. Shortened, and in Katana mounts. But the balde was obviously a Tachi. This was an easy one to identify by shape, most are next to impossible if you don't know who the smith was. Time period will affect the shape of the blade more than anything.

[Hai_hai]

One of my sensei did a cutting demonstration at a Japanese Festival. He was able to most of the time cut through some very tightly bound type of plant fiber (about 1/2 foot thick).
The plant fiber you are talking about is bamboo.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

The best made katana in the world will not be anywhere near as sharp as a razor, the edge angle is just wrong.

And the edge angle can vary depending on the use the sword was originally made for. Back when they still tested swords on corpses or convicted criminals, they believed that an edge geometry we would today call a convex grind was better for cutting flesh, and what we would call a flat grind was better for cutting tatami. I would guess that modern swords are almost universally flat grind as there isn't a lot of call for cutting flesh anymore. A straight-edge razor is a fairly severe concave grind, which does allow for an extremely narrow edge geometry and sharpness, but is also pretty fragile due to it's thinness and hardness, such an edge would not be suited to a sword at all.

[Ric Flinn]

The plant fiber you are talking about is bamboo.

Nah, it wouldn't be bamboo. Sounds like tatami omote (tatami floor mat covers), made of reeds from a type of wetland plant, which are the typical cutting material of choice. Sometimes people'll roll up a piece of green bamboo in the center of the mat, but it's typically less than an inch in diameter.

[Ric Flinn]

And the edge angle can vary depending on the use the sword was originally made for. Back when they still tested swords on corpses or convicted criminals, they believed that an edge geometry we would today call a convex grind was better for cutting flesh, and what we would call a flat grind was better for cutting tatami. I would guess that modern swords are almost universally flat grind as there isn't a lot of call for cutting flesh anymore. A straight-edge razor is a fairly severe concave grind, which does allow for an extremely narrow edge geometry and sharpness, but is also pretty fragile due to it's thinness and hardness, such an edge would not be suited to a sword at all.


Actually many (most?) modern Japanese swords have a slightly convex cross section. This is the "niku" that Tattooed was talking about a few posts up. Sure there are also many hira-zukuri, flat-sided swords that people love because they're great mat cutters, but to me that's cheating.

[tattooedasshole]

I've got to agree with Ric here, those wing-shaped hira blades sorta are cheating. They can get so much shraper that they just zip through smaller/soft targets. The real problem with hira-zukuri katana is that on thick/hard targets they have LOTS of problems if your blade angle is not pefect into the cut. Even if it is perfect, you get alot of drag on thick targets because it doesn't separate in the same maner as a blade with a decent niku on it. The stress caused by that friction can easily bend a blade, and nobody is happy when that happens.
As for niku, you will find a little niku on most swords, especialy nihonto. Niku is an adaptation to balde geometry designed to keep a sword usable in battle. Although there are no swords fights any more, it been done for so long its almost part of the tradition. You can find blades with little or no niku, but it is usualy due to multiple polishes. Each polish wears the blade down a bit. So, in order to keep the hamon, more "meat" is taken off the blade. Makes the whole sword thinner, but keeps it usable. Niku is an apple seed shape to the blade. Polishing brings it closer to flat ground. Again, just a generalization, not a hard fast rule.
A flat grind is exceptional for small soft targets. When you get to 3-4 mat rolls, or bamboo cutting, the niku will make the cut cleaner due to separation, and much easier for the same reason. Resistance on the blade is next to nill with good niku, very apparent without it. Niku was originaly adapted for cutting flesh, but the physics that make it easier to cut flesh, also make it easier to cut tatami (tatmi is used because it closely simulates the resistance of human flesh, and is readily available).

For more on niku goto http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/niku.htm

[Takamatsu]

Hello this is for ric I will not insult your heritige please do not insult mine whether you believe samurai exist or not is your business I am samurai it is my heritige to have. I do not brag about my swords I am proud to have them this once again is my heritige I feel sorry for the schools who do not train for real you will never know the feeling of calm one can attain when practicing againts Teki with a shinken the control we have to have is tremendous. I do not insult other schools please follow the rules of your sensies and ganbate. I want to thank many foreigner when many young japanese do not train you help keep budo spirit alive. Please know the first weapon of samurai is not sword it is Yumi. I am very proud to train in traditional budo as this tradition will to die and be forgotten. Ric you say samurai being gone is good thing but its funny Japanese people still believe this spirit its sad to see so many young japanese acting like like american kids this is not us.

Takamatsu Kenshin

[Takamatsu]

Ric I want to say one more thingis the fact that you say thank goodness there are no more samurai the fact that you fear death and could never understand the total selfless devotion it means to be samurai although the time of the samurai started decline after segoku jidai the principals can be applied to everyday life although we dont carry swords the values past on from our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers are not forgotten by some of us and hopefully never will the kenjutsu I study most is a family form past down from the days of serving the Hosokawa daimyo in Kumamoto it is not IAI we wear two swords when training and train in many forms not just sword. further we do not pretend to be samurai gaijin it is our culture you pretend to study not the other way.

Watashi wa Samurai desu
Takamatsu Kenshin

I am sorry to other Americans I know not every American is rude and know everything so gomenasai I hope to learn from one another and share knowledge not argue.

[Ric Flinn]

Hello this is for ric

Takamatsu-san, I'm sorry you have taken my comments as an insult to your heritage, this was not my intent. I train in the samurai arts as well, and the goal in my training is, first and foremost, to keep the samurai spirit alive and preserve the history and culture of the samurai. I believe that samurai spirit is the most important aspect of budo and is very much alive today.

What I don't believe is that people today can or should refer to themselves as samurai. The samurai were a military ruling class, a dictatorship. For there to be a ruling class, there has to be other classes, classes which were oppressed, for no other reason than because they were born into it. It's a two-sided coin, but people often choose not to see the other side. My reasoning goes a little deeper, but basically this is why I feel that the abolishment of the samurai class is a good thing.

My comments about training with a live blade were not aimed directly at you; it was just your post that set me off. Many people in my country, often very inexperienced, will insist on training with poor-quality (and often unsafe) shinken from the very beginning of their practice. Sometimes this is okay if the sensei is very watchful but usually it is done just for the ego of the students. To make it worse, they will look down on those dojo who train with iaito. It irritates me, and your post set me off. I apologize. I used your post to insert my opinions when I should have refrained. Or at least explained myself better. Gomen nasai.


Ric you say samurai being gone is good thing but its funny Japanese people still believe this spirit its sad to see so many young japanese acting like like american kids this is not us.

Actually I agree with you completely. Like I said above, it is this spirit that is worth keeping alive. And the last thing we would ever want is more people in the world acting like American kids, right? :)

[Takamatsu]

Ric san Arrigato for explanation I would never look down on a school for not using shinken it is there sensei choice one must train with what we have I am fortunate lucky as well to have my training and good trainging no matter where we get it is #1 thing. Also I am thinking about Samurai Samurai changed after Hideyoshi he banned goshi farmer Samurai becuase he was afraid of them just like american goverment is afraid of many guns it gives people power he knew this becuase he was goshi too so he made distinct class which made big seperation. Then Tokugawa made it worse so no one could show merit and become samurai it became birthright. This was a bad thing and Samurai spirit declined but not in everybody not all samuria oppressed many knew that to survive we all live in harmany becuase samurai didnt make things or grow food some were protector of these people becuase it is balance. Ganbate Ric san

Takamatsu Kenshin

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Actually many (most?) modern Japanese swords have a slightly convex cross section. This is the "niku" that Tattooed was talking about a few posts up. Sure there are also many hira-zukuri, flat-sided swords that people love because they're great mat cutters, but to me that's cheating.

After looking reading your reply - it looks like I guessed wrong. I see that on the new line of last legend swords you can get models with what they describe as "little" or "full" niku, which they didn't used to have. Looking around a bit at new swords, which is something I haven't done for a year or so, I also see references to sori as torizori. Anybody know what that means? I haven't come up with a defintion after a few searches in what seemed likely places. Is it related to the point at which the maximum depth of the sori occurs?

[tattooedasshole]

Sori is the maximum curvature of the balde. A tori-sori refers to maximum curvature being centered on the blade. Sori is measured form mune-machi (notch at the habaki on the mune side of the blade) to the kissaki (point).

[tattooedasshole]

Trying to post quickly at work seems not to turn out, lol. The measurment given above is for nagasa. To get sori, you measure from the line created by measuring the nagasa(blade length) and measure the maximum distance to the mune. This gives you sori. Again, measuring from munemachi to kissaki is for nagasa, not sori.Damn thing won't let me edit my post.


For good info on Japanese sword, goto http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm)

[Kaoru]

Ric I want to say one more thingis the fact that you say thank goodness there are no more samurai the fact that you fear death and could never understand the total selfless devotion it means to be samurai although the time of the samurai started decline after segoku jidai the principals can be applied to everyday life although we dont carry swords the values past on from our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers are not forgotten by some of us and hopefully never will the kenjutsu I study most is a family form past down from the days of serving the Hosokawa daimyo in Kumamoto it is not IAI we wear two swords when training and train in many forms not just sword. further we do not pretend to be samurai gaijin it is our culture you pretend to study not the other way.

Watashi wa Samurai desu
Takamatsu Kenshin

I am sorry to other Americans I know not every American is rude and know everything so gomenasai I hope to learn from one another and share knowledge not argue.

Takamatsu-san,

You are not a samurai, no matter what you say. That period in Japan's history was ended when the emperor was restored to power, and when swords were finally banned in 1876. Surely you are aware of that? Unless you and your family was living in the remote wilderness up until now, you should know that. I mean no offense by that, but reality is reality.

Maybe you are possibly decended from Samurai, but you today, cannot be considered samurai because the class system was ended long ago.

Oh, and we are not studying JSA to become Samurai, either. In today's day and age, becoming a Samurai is impossible anyhow, even for a Japanese. Maybe there are some anime otaku wannabe's out there, but they do not represent those of us who are seriously training. We do not "pretend" to study your culture. That was impolite, BTW. Reigi. Remember?

You can have the attitude of a Samurai, but you will never be a Samurai in real life
because the times have greatly changed. I'm sorry.

Kaoru

P.S. Would you please punctuate your posts? It is annoying to try to figure out where your sentences begin and end. And, you need to please capitalise the first letter of the word that begins each sentence. Heck, even in Japanese, you have periods marking a sentence's end. Please do so. Thank you. :)

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Sori is the maximum curvature of the balde. A tori-sori refers to maximum curvature being centered on the blade. Sori is measured form mune-machi (notch at the habaki on the mune side of the blade) to the kissaki (point).

I understood what you were talking about here anyway, which was what I really wanted to know. That tori-sori is the maximum sori in the center of the nagasa, as opposed to nearer the tsuka or nearer the kissaki.

[Takamatsu]

Kaoru

I will learn better english when you write to me in Nihongo I am trying to learn your language why not learn mine. I see you look at japanese history please tell me somthing about Girl Samurai my favorite is Nakano Takeko when you show this devotion to duty and heritige you can have Samurai spirit too also I do live in country place and no matter about Meiji there are still Samurai come here and I can show you.

Takamatsu Kenshin

[Takamatsu]

Kaoru

Haitorei was 1877 also Kagoshima rebellion.

Takamatsu Kenshin

[sequelmen]

Eigo gah wakadimas kah? Watashiwas America Jin des kah. Watashiwa Niongoh gah scouchi wakadimas.

I am doing what I can to learn Niongo , hope im not doing too bad.

Ok here is my question,
Is there a way to check if this sword is realy hand forged http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43325&item=6533824015&tc=photo

I want to buy a katana sakabatou ( reversed blade) to one of my riend that practice Iaito ( dunno if it is the right word )

Thx in advance for replying me.

[tattooedasshole]

Eigo gah wakadimas kah? Watashiwas America Jin des kah. Watashiwa Niongoh gah scouchi wakadimas.

I am doing what I can to learn Niongo , hope im not doing too bad.

Ok here is my question,
Is there a way to check if this sword is realy hand forged http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43325&item=6533824015&tc=photo

I want to buy a katana sakabatou ( reversed blade) to one of my riend that practice Iaito ( dunno if it is the right word )

Thx in advance for replying me.
The reverse edge katana is a myth (some modern makers have made them though)and never existed historicaly.
As per the e-bay blade....you get what you pay for. I highly doubt that a $100 blade is hand forged, it take too much time to worth the $$.

[ChaShu]

Eigo gah wakadimas kah? Watashiwas America Jin des kah. Watashiwa Niongoh gah scouchi wakadimas.

I am doing what I can to learn Niongo , hope im not doing too bad.

Ok here is my question,
Is there a way to check if this sword is realy hand forged http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43325&item=6533824015&tc=photo

I want to buy a katana sakabatou ( reversed blade) to one of my riend that practice Iaito ( dunno if it is the right word )

Thx in advance for replying me.

My friend, I don't know if I would purchase something that in reality should cost much more than $100 from e-Bay... I can also see that you have a Canadian flag by your name. You may also run into shipping and customs problems should you try to ship a bladed weapon within Canada or across borders... Probably best to contact a reputable maker or go through a reputable retailer. My C$0.02 to hely you save more... :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's no issue with shipping swords to Canada or within Canada. But for $100 there's no way that sword is of any quality.

[tattooedasshole]

There's no issue with shipping swords to Canada or within Canada. But for $100 there's no way that sword is of any quality.
Only if its marked "antique replica", martial arts weapons are not allowed across the Us-Can border. There should be no problems, but it can crop up. My buddy had an antique sent back to the states because a postal worker decided it was a martial arts weapon.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What sort of weapon was it? You will certainly have a problem with stuff on the prohibited weapons list (nunchaku, shuriken, a few others). Swords are not on that list. In fact, due to weirdness in the law, you can walk around Canadian streets with a sword stuck in your belt, so long as it's not hidden - it just qualifies as a big knife (blade over 4") which may not be carried concealed. Unconcealed, no problem.

Rick Polland of swordstore has shipped lots of sharp stuff across the border, including a steel iaito we bought for our sensei, and he says it's not an issue.

[tattooedasshole]

What sort of weapon was it? You will certainly have a problem with stuff on the prohibited weapons list (nunchaku, shuriken, a few others). Swords are not on that list. In fact, due to weirdness in the law, you can walk around Canadian streets with a sword stuck in your belt, so long as it's not hidden - it just qualifies as a big knife (blade over 4") which may not be carried concealed. Unconcealed, no problem.

Rick Polland of swordstore has shipped lots of sharp stuff across the border, including a steel iaito we bought for our sensei, and he says it's not an issue.
I agree that it shouldn't be an isue, I had my shinken shipped up no prob. My buddy's katana, got across the border, and got sent back. The answer he got was "you can't ship martial arts weapons across the border". Bugei told me the same thing before they sent my blade, (as warning that it might not make it) but marked it as an antique replica. They do that with all their blades from what i've heard. There are ways around it, antiques are not supposed to fit into that category (hence my buddy was really pissed), nor are replicas, but if they decide it's a martial arts weapon, it goes back. Weapons are where the problem comes in, they wont send them across.
I thought that canadian law prohibited any blade that's not a folder? At least thats what i came up with last time I looked at cary and conceal laws. Basicaly said no fixed blades, open or concealed. Is it posible the law is different in ontario?

[tattooedasshole]

Forgot before, iaito are completely different because it can't be construed as a weapon. Just a practice tool. If it was sharp......
But I'm gonna check with a shipping company anyway....might as well find out what they have to say on the issue...

[Neil Gendzwill]

That steel iaito was plenty sharp. Fixed blades are perfectly legal, you can buy them in any knife shop.

[tattooedasshole]

That steel iaito was plenty sharp. Fixed blades are perfectly legal, you can buy them in any knife shop.
Buy, yes, carry, not from what I've heard (could easily be wrong though)

[tattooedasshole]

UPS tells me its prohibited to ship sword....

[tattooedasshole]

FedEx, Purolator, and Canada post tell me the same thing "we won't touch it cause it's a weapon". Like I said, you can get them through, but don't be surprised if it gets sent back.

[tattooedasshole]

What sort of weapon was it? You will certainly have a problem with stuff on the prohibited weapons list (nunchaku, shuriken, a few others). Swords are not on that list. In fact, due to weirdness in the law, you can walk around Canadian streets with a sword stuck in your belt, so long as it's not hidden - it just qualifies as a big knife (blade over 4") which may not be carried concealed. Unconcealed, no problem.

Rick Polland of swordstore has shipped lots of sharp stuff across the border, including a steel iaito we bought for our sensei, and he says it's not an issue.
Yup, you're right, you can carry just about any knife.

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/canada.html


My foot tastes bad.....

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well the flip side of that is that there is a very broad definition of what comprises a weapon. If the police determine that you are carrying a weapon rather than a tool, they can take it away from you. Also, if you get in a fight and use something to win, you can be in trouble for assault with a weapon. Arguments like "but officer, this here is just a cane I carry because of my rheumatism" don't carry much weight - if they determine you had something and intended to use it as a weapon, it's a weapon in the eyes of the law whether it's a knife, bat, cane or table lamp.

[tattooedasshole]

Well the flip side of that is that there is a very broad definition of what comprises a weapon. If the police determine that you are carrying a weapon rather than a tool, they can take it away from you. Also, if you get in a fight and use something to win, you can be in trouble for assault with a weapon. Arguments like "but officer, this here is just a cane I carry because of my rheumatism" don't carry much weight - if they determine you had something and intended to use it as a weapon, it's a weapon in the eyes of the law whether it's a knife, bat, cane or table lamp.
Yeah, they really left some broad definitions of what constitutes a weapon. I kinda doubt they'd let me carry my hissatsu though, lol
As per the shipping swords, Canada post told me to get in touch with customs to find out if there is a legal way to ship. I'll try that a little later on.
Aside from my buddy's experience, I haven't heard of any problems (and that was a complete f__k up by the post office, as it was an antique).

[sequelmen]

Thanks for all your answers, as for shipping sword to canada I dont think there will be a problem. ( I once sended a 5 lbs sharp sword to someoen and I didnt had any problems.) I might buy one of these anyway since its my range of price and I guess my friend wont be mad at me because I gave him a gift =). Anyway he can always put it on the wall as a ornemental sword.


Another question. Any training I could do before getting started with my martial art lessons? Im moving soon cauz there is nothing much to do here and im planning on getting some martial art classes? And any kind of martial art you suggest for me?


tHX AGAIN YOU ALL

[tattooedasshole]

Thanks for all your answers, as for shipping sword to canada I dont think there will be a problem. ( I once sended a 5 lbs sharp sword to someoen and I didnt had any problems.) I might buy one of these anyway since its my range of price and I guess my friend wont be mad at me because I gave him a gift =). Anyway he can always put it on the wall as a ornemental sword.


Another question. Any training I could do before getting started with my martial art lessons? Im moving soon cauz there is nothing much to do here and im planning on getting some martial art classes? And any kind of martial art you suggest for me?


tHX AGAIN YOU ALL
Uuuummmmm, kendo.....yup, kendo is the right thing to do.

[ChaShu]

I agree that it shouldn't be an isue, I had my shinken shipped up no prob. My buddy's katana, got across the border, and got sent back. The answer he got was "you can't ship martial arts weapons across the border". Bugei told me the same thing before they sent my blade, (as warning that it might not make it) but marked it as an antique replica. They do that with all their blades from what i've heard. There are ways around it, antiques are not supposed to fit into that category (hence my buddy was really pissed), nor are replicas, but if they decide it's a martial arts weapon, it goes back. Weapons are where the problem comes in, they wont send them across.
I thought that canadian law prohibited any blade that's not a folder? At least thats what i came up with last time I looked at cary and conceal laws. Basicaly said no fixed blades, open or concealed. Is it posible the law is different in ontario?

Canada, our Army doesn't have any bullets to fire, but hey, we can red tape you to death!

[Sôjirô]

sorry if im late but "sword in ur belt in plain view is legal in canada" OMG im so happy im canadian! (not that ill wear one (exept on halloween) but its cool to know) lol go me for pointless random posts...

[ChaShu]

sorry if im late but "sword in ur belt in plain view is legal in canada" OMG im so happy im canadian! (not that ill wear one (exept on halloween) but its cool to know) lol go me for pointless random posts...

Pshhh... Yah... look for that to change soon here in Canada based on what's been happening here in T.O. With the crackdown on gun violence here (you'd be surprised considering the news media's take on that), the prevalence of bladed violence has escalated. Yesterday on CFRB (talk radio) they were discussing a British study on banning anything as large or larger that a large chef's knife in the UK because of the escalation of bladed violence there. Far fetched, I know, but this IS the land of the ridiculous at times. I can see it now... goodbye paycheck, hello billion dollar knife and sword registry! :D

[tattooedasshole]

Pshhh... Yah... look for that to change soon here in Canada based on what's been happening here in T.O. With the crackdown on gun violence here (you'd be surprised considering the news media's take on that), the prevalence of bladed violence has escalated. Yesterday on CFRB (talk radio) they were discussing a British study on banning anything as large or larger that a large chef's knife in the UK because of the escalation of bladed violence there. Far fetched, I know, but this IS the land of the ridiculous at times. I can see it now... goodbye paycheck, hello billion dollar knife and sword registry! :D
Stupid laws. When you make weapons criminal, only criminals will have weapons.
Register swords.....hhhhmmmmm......I think not:bandit: ,lmao

Has bladed violence realy escalated, or is it just following an increase in population? Did they check the per capita rates?

[ChaShu]

Stupid laws. When you make weapons criminal, only criminals will have weapons.
Register swords.....hhhhmmmmm......I think not:bandit: ,lmao

Has bladed violence realy escalated, or is it just following an increase in population? Did they check the per capita rates?

I don't think it's a per capita increase so much as a media and public perception of an escalation of "random" bladed violence...

[Seraph]

Has anyone ever made a blade out of titanium? It's light but as strong as steel.

sorry bout the late reply, samuraix966, but i just signed up. lol anyways yes, I am sure somewhere some company has made a titanium sword to ensnare some poor misinformed buyer into spending hundreds and maybe thousands of dollars on a very, very bad idea. most types of titanium are not at ALL good for swords, as most can not take an edge. Those that can are not nearly as durable as the hardened steel counterparts. Common misconception has it that titanium is "stronger yet lighter than steel", when truly, it is only the strength to mass ratio that is better. In reality, you would need to make the sword two times thicker to make it just as strong as a steel sword, and that would off the chances of a katana, that relies on blade geometry, though for a greatsword or other large bladed weapon, it would create a much bigger yet lighter weapon, relying on weight and power to cut rather than blade quality.

[Seraph]

Oh and on the topic of knives, the government is merely going for propaganda to up their standings with the idiots of our nation that are against having "weapons". Sadly, the vast majority of people eat this up like candy and do not stop to think, "Gee, if someone is wanted to begin with, whats a knife gonna mean to him?" More importantly, when they outlaw weapons, they only take them away from law abiding citizens, leaving them helpless to defend themselves unless they have a considerable unarmed martial prowess or can find an improvised weapon nearby. What is even worse, is that the big knives do not pose a threat. You can see the massive Bowie as the thug pulls it out, but a split second later he may well be clutching his neck, trying to stop the bleeding from the 3 inch skeletonized knife he never noticed was drawn. The cruel truth is that the smaller the knife, the more dangerous. most people see no utility to a 3 inch knife, but when the point goes in, then it is possible to carve a full sized, well muscled man like a turkey on Thanksgiving. It is only a matter of time til the idiot wannabe "gangstas" notice this and start playing with the idea. The answer to unnecessary violence is not to change laws, but to get rid of the tumor then treat the cancer, meaning take out the rapists, psychos, etc and then teach people to see deeper than money and "respect" that most of these children can not even spell.