Waki Gamae Question

[Ninjujinkaku]

I am a iaido student who is a little interested in kendo, was just wondering if you were allowed to go into that stance in kendo shiai because ive never seen a kendo match were someone has done that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No, it doesn't work in shiai. Too slow.

[Ninjujinkaku]

Yea i figured that, but if you got a decent amount of distance you could go into it, in kumitachi we would do it and use the side of the bokken to smack the opponents bokken out of the way and come in for a yokomenuchi or shomenuchi. I think thats the only reason for that stance to provide a nice block with a quick counter attack.

[JSchmidt]

^^ No..as Neil said, it's too slow.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

There are a couple of reasons for the kamae as I understand it. The standard reason is to hide a sword which is of unusual length (broken, or maybe unusually long). If you play around with it with shinai a bit, you'll quickly learn that the other reason is the extremely strong cut you get from there. With real swords, both are an issue. With shinai, you know what the length is and it doesn't matter if the cut is super-strong, only that it is strong enough. You can try it. After the aite gets used to it (it can confuse some people), he'll just hit your men over and over. You just can't get the shinai out of the hole fast enough. Same problem with playing a low gedan (kensen knee-level or lower). You won't be able to get the shinai up fast enough to avoid losing men.

[Yann]

Correct me if I am wrong but you re allowed to adopt any kamae you want in a kendo shiai (that was his question). So technically you could do it, even if waki is not good for a shiai.

[Halcyon]

waki gamae is also a transitional kamae when facing multiple opponents, a situation that you obviously don't encounter in shiai.

for example, in seitei iai kata #10, shihogiri, after you cut your third opponent, just as you turn to face your fourth opponent, you hold your sword in waki gamae before you move across the floor while going into jodan, and then attack the fourth opponent.

[Tofubomb]

Now, I'm not a kendoka, but I am an iaidoka, I had a thought that perhaps Waki-gamae could be used in a shiai. (Please excuse me if my kendo terms arent used correctly) Lets say for example, the two kendoka go into tsubadome, then one of the kendoka, eases up and steps back and brings the shinai into waki, if the pressure is right, the opposing kendoka may follow the shinai down past the doh, allowing for a retreting men strike, If you can picture this, it may seem a little risqué but its just a thought. If this isn't clear enough I can try and explain better again.

[Kichigai]

I've never seen waki-gamae used in any shiai I've been at, nor heard of its use in any form other than a quick transitional one (an awkward gedan - jodan or something of that measure).

[Jung_Yul]

The only time that I'm aware of Kendo making use of Waki (aside from practicing Kihon) is in the shidachi side of the fourth Kendo kata. I've been training in both Kendo and Iaido for a measly 3 years, but I also have never seen Waki used in keiko. Nor have I seen Hasso to my best recollection. I have seen both Jodans (midi and hidari) and Gedan... and Chudan, naturally. I must agree with what has been already said about Waki being too slow for shiai, though... too far for the shinai to move in too small a time.

Yours in Budo,
John

[Neil Gendzwill]

Answering various questions here...
Yann - you're right, I misread. Wakigamae is perfectly legal. It just doesn't work very well.
Halcyon - the wakigamae in shihogiri, to the best of my understanding, isn't because of multiple opponents but rather results from the turn. You swing big and cut the opponent down, then turn to face the next one while your sword is still in the old direction. You can see a similar thing in kendo kata #7.
Jung Yul - for those of us that dabble in jodan, hasso is a useful transitional kamae. Sometimes if you don't have enough maai to get into jodan right away, you can go to hasso until you get clear enough to switch into jodan. You can get a really nice men attack out of hasso, but your left kote is really vulnerable.

[Steve]

I once played against a Kendoka who visited our club who chose to use Hasso and Waki against me. I was using Jodan against them...a very weak jodan. Our visitor out ranked me and had said they practiced against Jodan a lot in Japan, and had used Hasso in Japan to do it. I figured i was going to be crushed.

Anyway, both kamae were completely useless and essentially everytime i moved i landed a hit. I was surprised (and disappointed all at the same time) as my Jodan was quite weak.

Long story short, alternate kamae are rare...and really does the knowledge truly exist as to how to properly apply them these days? Yes, most likely...but as Neil pointed out above, there effectiveness is removed in modern Kendo. (save for possibly Hasso)

[Chusan]

Well, waki-gamae may be useful on very rare opportunities. First of all it`s quite a surprising trick. Since a surprise may always have a fine result, don`t underestimate this aspect.
What can be done out of waki? Of course gyaku-doh - especially against a weak jodan. Also possible is suriage-men - again it works against weak jodan, in combination with a backward ayumi-ashi from waki.
Nevertheless these are no usual techniques. But they are fine to be executed on certain occasions. Fine against weak jodan-players. And also fine if you`ve got no chance at all, so why not trying an unusual waza instead of just getting hit...