Pride

[Kikuchiyo]

I myself have not yet started practicing kendo or iaido, since clubs are rare to find. Regardless, I have always somehow felt a deep sense of pride for what the bushi of Japan accomplished in regards to their powerful spirit and actions, even if I'm just a Canadian teen with no real reason to have such emotions. For myself, there is no other class of warrior that can surpass what the Samurai mean to me in terms of achievement and legacy. But it's getting really hard lately to believe that you have the right reasons to respect these historical figures, as movies are being released which gather the countless romantics together for their new "Samurai fad." I feel somewhat embarrassed to somehow think that I can judge the reasons for a person to enjoy this history, but it has the ability to insult me just a tad. I like to think I take this passion with a bit more seriousness than some I have encountered, and seeing all my numerous friends buying iaito angers me to be honest, especially statements like, "I'll bring my new sword to smash stuff." Knowledge of an area can only carry you so far without the proper respect. I may be less knowledgeable in the subject or even less fortunate in being able to participate in the sword arts, but I know I have a strong reverence for what they stood for. I truly wish to stay away from hypocrisy especially in this regard, but it's the only topic of interest I have found that carries on beyond just a fad of growing popularity. It is just as you've probably read countless times, a journey of sorts to stay with you for the duration of our lives. The spirit of sincerity, compassion, and duty is something that should not merely be seen as a short-lived period of enchantment, but more of legacy to others.

Am I the only one to feel this way?

[Blue Bogu]

I may be young but....to most people..Samurai are just one class of warrior. Getting to learn about Korean, Chinese, and other Asian Warriors can be found just as interesting as Samurai.

[taganahan]

you have the right to feel what you feel and also, they have the right to feel what they feel. getting too personal might affect relationships.

i'm proud of the native warriors in my country. they killed magellan! every history teacher tells us that magellan was the first one to circum navigate the globe, but everytime they tell this i tell them that magellan died in my country by the native warriors. magellan used cannons, guns and those advanced stuffs for those olden days while the native warriors only used spears, swords, arrows and shield. not too sure if they used arrows.

~taganahan

[Lloromannic]

Even though here and in many other places there is some dislike towards people who became interested in kendo "to be a samurai", this is because it comes mostly from people who watched kill bill/last samurai. You however seem to have a genuine interest and desire to learn.

numerous friends buying iaito angers me to be honest, especially statements like, "I'll bring my new sword to smash stuff."
This is not only wrong, it's dangerous. Iaito are not made to cut and could break and hit someone with one of the pieces. Same goes for wall-hangers.

[mystic_kendoka]

This is not only wrong, it's dangerous. Iaito are not made to cut and could break and hit someone with one of the pieces. Same goes for wall-hangers.
those that think this is cool deserve the fate tht awaits them.. everyone seen this video?
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.mpg

[Lloromannic]

everyone seen this video?
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.mpg

Yes :wink:
yeah, silly people and their toys.

[Kozushi]

Hi there,
You can start Kendo by yourself if there are no clubs around you.
Buy a bokuto/bokken or a shinai, and start practicing the basic moves.
If you don't have enough head-room in your house, then kneel on the floor and practice the cuts. The most important cut for conditioning is 'Men': the cut to the head. Since you are at home, you can do the 'big Men' cut: bring the sword right back behind your head, and then bring it forward to head level. The left hand's rotating forward gives the sword its impetus and much of its aim; the right hand helps with the aim and stops the sword at the right level. If you use right-armed strength in the swing, then you won't be able to stretch the right arm straight out as you should to get the extra reach, and the cut will be slower.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can start Kendo by yourself if there are no clubs around you.

No, you can't. If you're training yourself, you're not practising kendo. You're practising delusional-do.

[Anime12478]

I agree with you on this in most respects. It is great when so many people have an interest in something that you hold dear to your heart. It is just that the problems arise when they "bastardize" the concepts or something to more fit in with the modern world of the media and pop culture. The same thing goes with video games. In the beginning, a few people played games and the people that made them have a passion for making games. Nowadays, more people have joined it, but they are more interested in graphics and "cool factor" than anything else. The problem here is when companies start making games to cater to the "graphics whores" and make games with the best graphics around but the most shallow gameplay. While that does concern me, it just doesn't do for me to just whine about it. Swordsmanship is a tough path to take. Eventually, people will leave the path because it is too hard, or it may not be for them. I always keep that in mind. There are always people like you who appreciate swordsmanship like you and that makes finding those people so much more rewarding.

[KhawMengLee]

heh...pride in our warriors.

Ever since I saw Taegukgi I have been in awe of China. Just the scene where the South Korean Army sounded the retreat and the Commander was like, "everyone is retreating! The Chinese have entered the war! How many of them are there?!?"

And then it cuts to the scene where you see the rolling hills swarming with charging chinese soldiers. Scary...victory thru numbers...kinda like the army ants...

[Gohan-kun]

...it's getting really hard lately to believe that you have the right reasons to respect these historical figures, as movies are being released which gather the countless romantics together for their new "Samurai fad." ...

Am I the only one to feel this way?


Ya know, it is for this exact same reason that I never did martial arts before. (This is NOT a flame, btw) I always had this image of people who did martial arts back home as people who were "wannabe ninjas" or whatever. I never ridiculed them; I just thought martial arts was one of those hobby-type activities people do, and I always had the (incorrect) image that people did it because they wanted mystical "oriental" powers (which is quite a derogatory term where I'm from). In my mind, I figured they just did it for fun, and that was the end of it.

In any case, I can relate to your position, Kikuchiyo. I came to Japan to learn more about the culture and to pick up a second language. Once I got settled here, I started looking for something to do with my students outside of school, and I found Kendo. Japanese history is fascinating, and my time here has been a matter of discovery and enrichment. Seeing people swinging their online-bought swords around never bothered me that much before, but after spending time here in Japan, it does kinda irk me a bit now. I'm not exactly sure why that is either. Still tolerant, but the whole idea of comodification of a culture (as seen with kanji tattoos back home, for example) is a complex one that can be discussed at lengh. There are many people here on these boards who, in my limited time here, seem strongly against the comodification of Japanese culture, in any respect (and probably Korean and Chinese cultures as well, but I'm not very educated in this area, so take this as just my opinion and personal observations).

Maybe I'm just blowing it out of proportion by saying all that stuff? I don't even know what I'm talking about...... :confused2 :nervous:

One thing's for sure: Kendo is good, and good for you! :glasses:

[Stimpson J. Cat]

And then it cuts to the scene where you see the rolling hills swarming with charging chinese soldiers. Scary...victory thru numbers...kinda like the army ants...
If you ever get a chance, talk to somebody who was in the South's lines when the Chinese attacked. It really was like that in many places. Some of the Chinese units were very poorly equipped, but there were just too many to stop. Somebody who used to work with my father was in a US unit there as part of the UN forces. He and the other men in his position were attacked by one of those poorly equipped units, many of the attacking Chinese troops didn't even have rifles. From their emplacements they stacked up dead bodies until the Chinese troops were climbing over piles of bodies to attack, but they kept coming. Eventually the Americans ran out of ammunition and ran like h*ll. It's the war time application of that thing about the population of China marching 4 abreast into the sea forever.

[mystic_kendoka]

there was a report somewhere that chinas casualties were twenty times the number of reinforcements they were getting and they still never had any shortages concerning men...

[KhawMengLee]

If you ever get a chance, talk to somebody who was in the South's lines when the Chinese attacked. It really was like that in many places. Some of the Chinese units were very poorly equipped, but there were just too many to stop. Somebody who used to work with my father was in a US unit there as part of the UN forces. He and the other men in his position were attacked by one of those poorly equipped units, many of the attacking Chinese troops didn't even have rifles. From their emplacements they stacked up dead bodies until the Chinese troops were climbing over piles of bodies to attack, but they kept coming. Eventually the Americans ran out of ammunition and ran like h*ll. It's the war time application of that thing about the population of China marching 4 abreast into the sea forever.


Yeah, they had the strength in numbers. Some of those poorly equipped units were using knives and clubs. A million soldiers is pocket change tho for Beijing.

[mathiasb]

He and the other men in his position were attacked by one of those poorly equipped units, many of the attacking Chinese troops didn't even have rifles. From their emplacements they stacked up dead bodies until the Chinese troops were climbing over piles of bodies to attack, but they kept coming. Eventually the Americans ran out of ammunition and ran like h*ll. Kind of reminds you of those alien insects in "StarShip Troopers", right? :devious::D

[mystic_kendoka]

anyone seen starship troopers 2?

it was in the video rental, but not in the theatres..

[mathiasb]

anyone seen starship troopers 2?

it was in the video rental, but not in the theatres.. Nope. followups where they've changed all the actors, and which only comes out on videos are rarely worth watching... IMHO.... :wink:

[LNGUYEN]

If you said Samurai is the most achievement warrior, then I doubt about your knowledge to have seriously interest in Japanese culture. Japanese is fascinating, yes, because it reflected what was about East Asia culture 500 years ago. The clothes, the habits, the rituals, the Samurai Code, they are all from ancient without changing very much while other countries were evolved cuturally with time. Now, most of Asian countries are leaning toward Westernization on the surface and Japan is somewhat, that is why it is standing out and Hollywood, especially Quentin Tarantino, grap the opportunity for movies. That I think why you are interest in Japanese culture because of Hollywood.

"Starship Troopers" sucks. It was very fascist and war propaganda. It used the same excuse that Hitler used to attack Poland that ignited the secon world war. How the hell an insect society which was not even have modern technology and live far away from Earth could shoot a whatever to Earth that destroy Human Lives. If they can shoot all the way to Earth, then they should have enough spaceships to defend themselves from space. They didn't even use phaser because they had none. Most soldier were killed from their claws, their mouths, their weights and those were not modern technology. And what the hell is "Earth citizen" things? You have to join the army, go kill whatever they want to become "Earth citizen", sound communist to me. Look at the uniform, does it look like from the Third Reich?

[nodachi]

Re: Starship Troopers

Yes, it's a crappy movie.

But I heard it was based off of a book, quite old too, which was more based off of the politics end of things with little fighting to it. Hence, the lack of info on what all that "citizen" stuff in the movie was about because the fighting made the movie people happier. I heard the book was interesting and meant to incite debate concerning government and politics in addition to be a neat sci fi book.

Never read the book myself, but I've heard these things said about it. Might be worth a quick read. Then again, maybe not... <shrugs>

[Haowen]

Re: Starship Troopers

If you didn't laugh during the entire movie, then you didn't get it. It's not so much an action scifi movie as a comedic satire of modern governments all converging towards fascism and the dehumanizing of individuals in favour of the State. It's so absolutely over-the-top, it's gorgeous, and quite hilarious.

[Kikuchiyo]

Well, at least there are others. I'm sure it would be a good idea to open my perspectives to other historical cultures, but with any hope, it will only make me more enthralled by Japan's. What can I say, that's just how it happens. One day about 4 or so years ago you get some initial fascination and it doesn't go away like most things have in your life. So you hold on to them and they eventually become pretty important to you. As for me saying they were the best, to me it was their spirit. I know couage and loyalty weren't a samurai commodity here, but since I read Hagakure long ago, I don't think a day goes by when I don't have some thoughts toward my daily actions. Just like some people have a tendency to influence you more, even if they aren't entirely all that special, I'm sure cultures have the same effect. Now i'm left with the question of whether to take fencing until I can start kendo, or just keep getting more and more out of shape? Maybe this is all just to see if my interest in Kendo can survive without ever practicing it. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[mathiasb]

"Starship Troopers" sucks. It was very fascist and war propaganda. It used the same excuse that Hitler used to attack Poland that ignited the secon world war. How the hell an insect society which was not even have modern technology and live far away from Earth could shoot a whatever to Earth that destroy Human Lives. If they can shoot all the way to Earth, then they should have enough spaceships to defend themselves from space. They didn't even use phaser because they had none. Most soldier were killed from their claws, their mouths, their weights and those were not modern technology. And what the hell is "Earth citizen" things? You have to join the army, go kill whatever they want to become "Earth citizen", sound communist to me. Look at the uniform, does it look like from the Third Reich? Re: Starship Troopers
The movie is great! As have been already said the whole movie was completely sarcastic comment on western societies (with the heavy propaganda in the movie), patriotism ("your government needs YOU to help fight the insects", while showing children stomping cochroaches in the street) and that thing that happens during war where you dehumanize the enemy to make it easier for everybody to hate them(ok, thats easy as they are insects). The sarcasm was quite thick i think. Amazing you missed it. :lick: (i mean, look at how tall those Third Reich uniform hats where. how can it NOT be a joke?? :))

Finally the society they have in the movie is based on Plato's "The Republic". In Plato's republic it is only the guardians, which is a special caste in society, that are considered "real citizens" (ie. have the ability to vote, run for office and such). For the guardians men and women are also completely equal (the showering together scenes in the movie, and the female skymarshall) and in the original Republic children of guardians are even to be raised by the community as well as they may not know their parents and vice versa.

Oh!... and i don't think they shot that stone that killed millions of humans... they threw it.... they colonize planets by throwing huge rocks with bugs inside at them... they don't have any technology... they are bugs... Hows that for a great imagination? :)

oh, anyways.... back on topic... sorry... :)

[Lloromannic]

Now i'm left with the question of whether to take fencing until I can start kendo.
Where are you in Canada. Here (http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_dojoadr.htm) is a list of the dojos in Canada.

[kenshin13]

Now i'm left with the question of whether to take fencing until I can start kendo.
Where are you in Canada. Here (http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_dojoadr.htm) is a list of the dojos in Canada.
DO NOT take fencing. It will really screw you up. Even if you do fencing for a couple of weeks, it will take a lot of time to make your foot straight.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

that thing about the population of China marching 4 abreast into the sea forever.
Somebody asked me what that was and I thought as I may as well answer here, don't know if it is still true or not, but at some point during the cold war, somebody figured out that that if you lined up Chinese four abreast and marched them into the ocean at a normal marching pace, they could continue to march into the ocean at that rate forever and never run out of population because the birthrate in China was greater than the "marching into the ocean" rate would be.

[Wout]

"Starship Troopers" sucks. It was very fascist and war propaganda. It used the same excuse that Hitler used to attack Poland that ignited the secon world war. How the hell an insect society which was not even have modern technology and live far away from Earth could shoot a whatever to Earth that destroy Human Lives. If they can shoot all the way to Earth, then they should have enough spaceships to defend themselves from space. They didn't even use phaser because they had none. Most soldier were killed from their claws, their mouths, their weights and those were not modern technology. And what the hell is "Earth citizen" things? You have to join the army, go kill whatever they want to become "Earth citizen", sound communist to me. Look at the uniform, does it look like from the Third Reich?


These are the ppl that would say Orwell was a fascist or a commie, or that 'Farenheit 451' is totalitairian propaganda. I don't get it why ppl don't understand that what the director in the movie starship troopers is actually not picturing his heroes as moral saints but more as misguided fools. But yeah if you only grew up on Hollywood blockbustercrap in which the hero is the 'evermoral straigtarrowed Billy Doogood' then maybe you would think Starship troopers is fascist propaganda.

Remember Greek theater: the protagonit isn't allgood and the antagonist isn't all evil, ppl don't do things because some personal disposition of being evil or good. They have reasons for their actions, they don't do things just because of personality. If you look at Vondels Lucifer you will see this too.

[JSchmidt]

Finally the society they have in the movie is based on Plato's "The Republic".
Now, I've never made it all the way through "The Republic", but isn't that a rather liberal interpretation of it?.

Jakob

[not-I]

Now, I've never made it all the way through "The Republic", but isn't that a rather liberal interpretation of it?.
Nope, not at all. Mathias was spot on. Elitism and sexual equality were both part of Plato's vision (What's "liberal" about this, btw?). The shower scene in Starship Troopers was an obvious reference to Plato's insistence that the male and female guardians practice gymnastics together in the nude, to overcome "base desires."

Starship Troopers was one of the funniest movies i've ever seen. And as a prank, it is success on all levels, in that provokes a reaction one way or another. You might find it stupid, or view it as fascist propaganda, or simply laugh your ass off for an hour and a half. The only people i worry about are those who wholly identify with it. The problem with irony is that it is irony.

Where were we?...

Kikochiyo, looks like you inadvertedly kicked off the unofficial KWF Starship Troopers thread. Kudos for that.

I wouldn't worry about your worries. Fashions come and go, and every good thing eventually gets popularized, marketed, packaged and distributed for mass consuption. But kendo and kendoka are in it for the long haul. Just keep on truckin'.

[JSchmidt]

Plato's republic is an ideal, which the society in ST seems rather far from achieving. Sure, they borrow a few ideas, but I don't think it's anywhere near a fair representation of the society Plato presents.

Jakob

[not-I]

Plato's republic is an ideal, which the society in ST seems rather far from achieving. Sure, they borrow a few ideas, but I don't think it's anywhere near a fair representation of the society Plato presents.
Well, part of what you can do with satire is take an ideal and envision what it might look like in practice, with liberal allowances for Murphy's Law.

Political ideals have always looked rather shabby in practice, regardless of their theoretical workability or general popularity. I don't believe the Politeia has ever been field-tested, but i doubt the results would be dissimilar to ST.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Re: Starship Troopers

Yes, it's a crappy movie.

But I heard it was based off of a book, quite old too, which was more based off of the politics end of things with little fighting to it. Hence, the lack of info on what all that "citizen" stuff in the movie was about because the fighting made the movie people happier. I heard the book was interesting and meant to incite debate concerning government and politics in addition to be a neat sci fi book.

Never read the book myself, but I've heard these things said about it. Might be worth a quick read. Then again, maybe not... <shrugs>http://content.sirsi.net/uhtbin/getenrich/0785787283/COVER_FULL

Yes, Robert Heinlein, and I thought it was a damn good book, the premise of only ex-military members being full citizens in the book is that by volunteering for the military, they have placed the good of society above their own good and are the only group in society who have all done so. Therefore they are the group most to be trusted to place the good of society above their own good while governing.

Also in the book, the bugs are an intelligent, space-faring race who are actively out to conquer and colonize worlds inhabited by humans and the 3rd known militarily powerful race, who I don't remember the name of. Using interstellar ships, not by throwing rocks.

The book has quite a bit of political and social commentary, but it doesn't get too overpowering. It's also the earliest (1959) mention I know of what it calls "powered armor" (See Gundam/Mobile Suit/ type anime) though I'm certianly no expert in that field.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie, I'm commenting only on the book.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Last post finally showed up after I posted this one.

[Wout]

http://content.sirsi.net/uhtbin/getenrich/0785787283/COVER_FULL

Yes, Robert Heinlein, and I thought it was a damn good book, the premise of only ex-military members being full citizens in the book is that by volunteering for the military, they have placed the good of society above their own good and are the only group in society who have all done so. Therefore they are the group most to be trusted to place the good of society above their own good while governing.



hmm before you romantisize the fact of putting the benefit of the group before your own, realize that this idea how good it seems in theory has had any many faces in the past. Some of them are really good, such as 'loving thy neighbour', 'social security' etc etc., but abusing this idea by polarizing that only doing what is best for the 'group' is important, this is an aspect of fascism, why should handicapped ppl be killed, because they place a burden on the 'group', why are jews to be killed, because they do not serve the interests of the 'group' but only their own (remember that this group is actually not really defined but it is something that must appeal to the people to be a part of it).
The movie is actually a critisism (it may or may not be clear to some) on the idea of this 'groupthinking' where only the group counts. Did noone ever thought about the fact that the human army is rufly organised in the same way as that of the bugs. The troopers hardly know why they are doing the things they do, they just get send out by their respective 'intelligence'

[Lloromannic]

hmm before you romantisize the fact of putting the benefit of the group before your own, realize that this idea how good it seems in theory has had any many faces in the past. Some of them are really good, such as 'loving thy neighbour', 'social security' etc etc., but abusing this idea by polarizing that only doing what is best for the 'group' is important, this is an aspect of fascism, why should handicapped ppl be killed, because they place a burden on the 'group', why are jews to be killed, because they do not serve the interests of the 'group' but only their own (remember that this group is actually not really defined but it is something that must appeal to the people to be a part of it).
The movie is actually a critisism (it may or may not be clear to some) on the idea of this 'groupthinking' where only the group counts. Did noone ever thought about the fact that the human army is rufly organised in the same way as that of the bugs. The troopers hardly know why they are doing the things they do, they just get send out by their respective 'intelligence'
I don't think he is advocating that ideas, he merely said that the book is very good (I agree)and that it contains those ideas in the form of the way the society operates (which is indeed a critic as they do not function well)

[Erikku]

It might be just me... But any movie with Denise Richards is worth watching. Now not all movies with Denise Richards is really worth listening to or relating to Plato...

I think that Starship Troopers on mute with er..., let's say a Nine Inch Nails CD playing in the background is quite enjoyable.

As for admiring the samurais... Go for it... As long as you make sure that in the end, looking back on all those years, you can find something that makes you admire yourself... even just a little bit...

As for fencing screwing your kendo posture... I don't see why it would. Thinking like that, you might as well say that biking can screw your footwork. I do not belive that past hobbies, sports, or way of life can prevent you from learning the correct way to hit men, for example. And I try, in everything I do, not to blame my past for my recent failures. It's hard. But I try. No one can say that I'd be able to better (or even just properly) do Do-Kirikaeshi if I didn't do fencing for 4 years back before the Y2K bug...

[Wout]

It might be just me... But any movie with Denise Richards is worth watching. Now not all movies with Denise Richards is really worth listening to or relating to Plato...


It's not just you

[Sepiraph]

Kikochiyo, looks like you inadvertedly kicked off the unofficial KWF Starship Troopers thread. Kudos for that.

All hail for our glorious new leaders, the all-mighty bugs! Err, I mean the Mobile Infantry!