Oval handled shinai

[Matthew Lagden]

A fellow kendoka at my Dojo (David J who haunts this forum) returned from Japan with an oval handled shinai - i believe the technical term is Dobari.

Anyway, i loved it and immediately wanted one, so i wanted to know if other people had used them, and if so did you like it, are there any advantages or disadvantages over 'normal' shinai etc?

[Ares2907]

I've not had much experience using them, however I have heard that over-use of these can lead to sloppiness of tenouchi when reverting to a round-handled beastie.
Not sure how much accuracy there is to this, perhaps someone else can clarify.

[James]

Dobari refers to the width of the shinai, ie: dobari shinais have a wider body, a bit heavier, and the balance is nearer the tsuba.
They can have round or oval handles.

The main disadvantage of an oval shinai is probably financial, ie if you have to repair it you can't just take some slats from a normal round shinai to replace a broken one.

Otherwise I believe it is a matter of preference, if you have small hands, or prefer to have a shinai that has a handle shaped more like a real sword handle would be, it may suit you.

Actually I don't use one so I'll shut up and stand to be corrected.
james

[Matthew Lagden]

Thank you for correcting me on the Dobari thing - I am about to order a new Shinai (bought first one cheap and now regretting it) abd would hate to order one and find it wasn't what i wanted as i don't have the money to be making mistakes.

so what are the advantages of Dobari and non Dobari - is it just a question of point of balance, weight etc?

I have only ever used mine and the dojo's - i think i need to try some different ones to get a feel for it.

[JSchmidt]

Nine Circles had them at the British Open and I played around with one a bit. I don't think small hands is much of an issue, but more that it feels more natural to hold....it might prevent the death grip some people seem to have on the shinai....although..while the handle was nice, the balance was that of a standard shinai. If you could get them in various styles, I might be interested, though.

James, I've never been able to do the swapping-trick..I can never get the knuckles to match up or if they do, the handles will be differently shaped....ah well...guess it keeps the shinai makers happy :P.

Jakob

[lucian]

I have a few koban tsuka shinai
mine are left hand koban and the right hand has a nice large dobori grip On small shinai my left hand used to move out of the correct grip, but with koban tuska it now no longer happens and has improved my cuts,
there pretty good to use, very good for DO cuts and can help give you better grip on the shinai the down side is they do cost quite a bit, I think mine where around £45 and I have seen a few that are really bad quality the staves don’t fit to good,
But Ares is right about tenouchi on the smaller tsuka mine is a lot stronger than it used to be but I have not experienced sloppy cuts or poor technique when going back to smaller / round tsuka,
I would say there worth it though (ooh suits you sir, suits you)

[Matthew Lagden]

I am hoping that it might help correct the slight twist-off to the left i have when i do a nice big Men cut - when i quickly tried my colleagues oval handled shinai i found my men cuts moving in a straighter smoother arc as my hands couldn't pull round the shinai, twisting it. it also felt more natural in my grip.

i wasn't wearing Kote though if that might make a difference to how it felt.

i find my with my current shinai (standard 39') that my hands hurt after keiko - i think because of the way my fingers fit round the handle and twist as i move it.

i am religiously doing hand exercises to correct, but figure a bit of help from my shinai can't hurt.

[stinkyKote]

I believe the term for oval grip is 'Obaru'? One of the guys I play with had a chat with one of our sensei about oval gripped shinais, and he said you shouldn't get one unless you've been doing kendo for awhile, as you can develop bad habits using an oval grip-- something about the oval grip making it more difficult to make adjustments with your wrists and hands? ... don't recall exactly ...if I can remember I'll ask my sensei again the next time I go to practice-

[JSchmidt]

"i find my with my current shinai (standard 39') that my hands hurt after keiko "

You are most likely holding it too tight.

Jakob

[KhawMengLee]

Yeah, my left hand makes this funny clicking feeling in the morning. Feels like "click" when my hand closes and the same when it opens...like the tendons are only pulling on one side...

Its getting better though.

The oval gripshinai is nice to use but costly as you can only rotate the slats once. ie. the back and front slats. I still prefer the round grip....dunno its just a preference.

MENG

[etherknot]

For what it's worth, I have been using a club dobari for a while. I recall using a normal plain jane shinai when I came to the first few classes. But I got handed a dobari and have been using it since. It does make quite a difference! Men cuts are nicer, more on target and I like the extra little bit of weight.

I just recently got my own dobari. It's soaking up some oil in the other room right now :D

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
Yeah, my left hand makes this funny clicking feeling in the morning. Feels like "click" when my hand closes and the same when it opens...like the tendons are only pulling on one side...

MENG

U sure its because of Kendo.. not ............


Just kidding :P

[KhawMengLee]

I knew that one was coming...you wait...heehee...

[Matthew Lagden]

I tried a Dobari last night and am definitely putting it on my christmas list - not sure if it is going to be oval grip or not.

I tried relaxing my grip last night, and found that when i did my cuts were better, and lo and behold, my hands don't hurt today.

my shoulders are killing me though....

[James]

hi Jakob,
the trick to rotating the slats is to bear this in mind when you are buying the shinai in the first place, and try to get ones from the same batch, with similar placed knuckles.
You really need to be in a shop, unfortunately most of us have to go mail order, so we just have to sift throught that pile of broken shinai hoping for a match.:(
On the up side my pile of broken shinais is nearly enough to weave into an attractive laundry basket.:surprise:

[Kendoka]

I use (until my second one broke recently) an oval handed Carbon shinai and have used that style for quite a few years.

Ares is right about the grip - you need to be awareof that and check and correct your grip.

But the oval handle can help to fix other things, like the above mentioned swing to the left.

Check the Hasegawa page and you will find that there are Ooval handed K1 and K2. K1 is round close to the tsuba and oval at the bottom or where the left hand grips. K2 are oval all the way.

http://www.hasegawakagaku.co.jp/eshinai.htm

I do like the feel of an oval handle, sort of like a real sword.

I also use a normal round handled dobari shinai in every training, usually for ji-geiko, so I don't become too locked into one style/type.


Richard

[David J]

Originally posted by James

On the up side my pile of broken shinais is nearly enough to weave into an attractive laundry basket.:surprise:

Maybe you should try marketing this idea to Hasegawa ;) ??

D

[fubo.x]

i've seen curved shinai's (in the shaped of katana) in some stores, has anyone tried them?

[KhawMengLee]

I think you are reffering to eguchi's morimoto shinai:
http://www.eguchi.net/special_2002_Sept_1.htm

I'd like one too :)

[reicheru]

i've seen curved shinai's (in the shaped of katana) in some stores, has anyone tried them?

Weird. Would you actually be allowed to use something like this in shiai (or even in keiko)? Or is it just for suburi, as the one on eguchi seems to be? If just for suburi, then would there really be any benefit of using one? It seems like getting used to swinging a curved shinai would make it harder to go back to a regular one during practices, no? I guess I just don't really see the point... anyone care to explain why you'd use one? Just curious...

[ben]

You can easily make your own "oval handled" shinai. Just sand down the side slats of the handle. You might need to buy a smaller tsuka or shrink your old one in some way. Or you can just sand a flat section for your left hand at the end of the tsuka.

No-one will ever know that you didn't spend a bazillion dollars at e-bogu...

:) b

[Hyaku]

I could not get on with the oval ones. They are no fat enough for me.

I would not dare use that Morimoto one. I would perhaps forget myself and try cutting people between the legs or in the neck!

Hyaku

[KATSUJIN]

i have used two f the oval handle shinais....some people call them katana grip.........it helped me in using more left hand than right hand..........and the balance for this two particular shinias were pretty good.......just above the tsuba.....

[Fai]

I always thought the lightness of a shinai was dependent on its maker rather than the style and the only difference is in the balance.

I currently use a dobari and a standard shinai and I find that the dobari is much lighter. That is maybe I have shaved/fixed it too much or my standard one is cheap and nasty (^_^)

I have been tempted to buy an oval shaped handle shinai but I also like Jakob have had a play on one at the expense of nine circles. I found the ones they had at the stall were too heavy and the balance was not right for me. Does anyone know where I can buy a decent/light 39" oval handle from the net?

[KATSUJIN]

hmmm.....well i think u should look at kendoshop.com....korean equipment but not bad...i buy my stuff from them....

[Fai]

I think the equipment they sell at kendoshop.com is the same as nine circles. Also being in UK I am blocked from buying stuff from there :(

[Confound]

No offence intended, but that Morimoto shinai is the ugliest thing I've ever seen. The colour is hideous, and the shape is downright blasphemous. What would be the purpose in having a shinai shaped like that? It would be a great conversation starter, "Hey, who ran over your shinai?"

The webpage states that the shinai is intended for suburi, but the purpose of suburi is to practice striking and cutting. How can one practice kendou cuts and strikes with a shinai that is not the same shape as the one used in keiko? It sounds a bit silly to me.

I relegate the Morimoto shinai to the same place as red dougis, white bogu and other freaks of nature.

c

edit - Two last things: Isn't that shinai a bit long to imitate a katana? Kendou isn't about being a samurai, why bother imitating at all?

[alexpollijr]

Well, it's ugly allright.

Anyway, it is perfectly OK for suburi. It has approx. the same shape and weight of a suburi-to, the only remark is that it's made of bamboo slats.

All in all it's just a fancy suburito, nothing more. To put it on the same basket of the red keikogi may be a bit too much.

[mkomoto]

The common term in Japanese for the oval shaped tsuka is "koban."

Mr. KhawMengLee, you might to have a doctor exam you hand. The trouble might be the onset of "trigger-finger(s.)" (Inflammation of the longus-tendon(s) that facilitate bending the fingers. When the tendons become inflammed, they do not slide over the pulleys that stabilize them, causing the flicking-movement as the swollen portion passes the pulley. In many cases, simple cryo-therapy can help. In more advanced cases, anti-inflammatory injections are used. In the worst case, the pulley is "released," or surgically cut to allow the chronically inflammed tendon to slide past without impindgement. Don't rely on this guess, see an orthopaedic physician.

Kind regards to all,
mkomoto

[KhawMengLee]

YOW! Thanks for that mkomoto. The action has stopped now as I am gripping only during the hit but if it flares up again I will definatly check it out...heh, my cousin is an orthopedic surgeon...another excuse for a grubby relative to scrounge free treatment from him...heh

THANKS
MENg

[Steve]

Let me play "Devil's Advocate" here:

Confound, one could argue "how can you practice cutting with a straight shinai? Its nothing like a katana."

Or, why use katana shaped bokken in the kata instead of one more similar to a shinai, or a shinai itself? Does that mean the kata have no application to keiko?

The answers to these arguments, i guess would serve as a defense for the curved shinai.

On the other hand, they are quite ugly!

As for Oval grips, i prefer the standard round one. I find them more comfortable.

[Phorest]

One thats a bit more shall we say...attractive.

http://www.e-bogu.com/akic.html